this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the show -- as scores of world leaders prepare to descend on the united nations this week, we'll talk to the secretary-general antonio guterres. he's called the pandemic the greatest global challenge since world war ii. the big question is, can the world's powers be persuaded to embrace a plan to vaccinate all of humanity?

>> let's be clear, all this is too little too late. >> also, what can the u.n. do to help the growing humanitarian catastrophe in afghanistan? and in a stunning move, france recalls its ambassador to washington. why? i will ask the former ambassador, gerard araud. then justice clarence thomas said on thursday that the supreme court may not be the most dangerous branch of the u.s. government. and while many are asking whether the highest court in the land has become too political. i will put all of the big questions swirling around the court to justice stephen breyer. but first here's "my take." on tuesday president biden will make his first speech to the u.n. general assembly.

the address comes at a crucial moment in the biden presidency, and will have a particular impact on how it's viewed abroad. after almost eight months of watching policies, rhetoric and crises, many foreign observers have been surprised, even shocked, to discover that in area after area, biden's foreign policy is a continuation of donald trump's and a repudiation of barack obama's. some of this may be the consequence of the abrupt and unilateral manner in which biden withdrew troops from afghanistan. a german diplomat told me in his view berlin was consulted more by the trump administration than by this one. some ask specific actions like the u.s./uk/australia submarine deal that enraged the french. but a senior ukraine diplomatic noted on dealing with everything from vaccines to travel

restrictions, the biden policies were america first in logic, whatever the rhetoric. a canadian politician said that it followed biden's buy america plans are actually more protectionist than trump's, despite criticizing trump's tasks repeatedly, biden has kept nearly all of them. in fact many have been expanded since most exemptions to them have been allowed to expire. key nation allies keep pressing biden to return to the trans pacific partnership, much praised him by when the obama administration negotiated it. instead, it's been shoved. another striking example of biden's surprisingly trumpian foreign policy is the iran nuclear deal, one of the land mark accomplishments of the obama administration. oops throughout his election, biden argued trump's withdrawal from that agreement had been a cardinal error and as president, he would quickly join it as long

as iran would also move into compliance. in early '19, jake sullivan described trump's reopposing the secondary strikes against iran as predatorial unilateralism. but since he took office, biden failed to reignite the deal. having long argued to renegotiate the deal, biden officials say they want to lengthen and strengthen it. so far this biden strategy has not worked. production went from less than 300 kilograms in 2018 to around 2,500 kilograms today. or consider policy towards cuba. the obama administration was bold enough to tackle one of the most glaring failures in u.s. foreign policy, having isolated and sanctioned cuba since 1960 to produce regime change in that country, the united states has instead strengthened cuba's

communist regime. fidel castro sparked nationalist fervor by blaming all of cuba's problems on the embargo and far from being toppled, he ended up staying in power longer than any non-royal leader on the planet. as for iran, the cost of these policies have been paid for by ordinary people. obama began to relax the policies towards cuba. trump reversed course. biden kept in place the trump policy and actually tightened sanctions. in a recent u.n. general assembly vote condemning america's 60-year-old embargo, the vote tally was 184 to 2. israel was the only country to vote with washington. biden and his team often criticize trump for his assault on the rules based international system. but how does one rebuild such a system while embracing naked protectionism, unilateral sanctions, limited consultations, and america-first policies on stuff like vaccines

and even travel? when i was returning from europe last week, the british airline employee checking me in said nervously, i hope you have an american passport. i said, yes, but asked why she seemed so relieved. she replied, oh, the americans have made it a nightmare for europens to enter their country and it seems so unfair because we have much higher vaccination rates and much lower levels of covid than you do. she concluded in exasperation, it seems these days you americans just want a double standard that helps you no matter what others think. it doesn't have to be this way. trump's selfishness should be the aberration. biden can use the u.n. pulpit to return to his deep roots as an internationalist, who understands that countries don't simply ally with america out of fear or bribes or narrow security concerns, they do so because its best presidents have articulated and pursued policies

that while always being attentive to u.s. interests, also tried to build an open rule-based international order that helps others prosper and thrive. if joe biden continues course though, historians might one day look back on him as the president who normalized donald trump's foreign policy. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column, and let's get started. ♪ unacceptable behavior among allies and partners. that is what the french government called the announcement of a new security pact between the u.s., australia and the uk. this will help australia build a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines, among other things. but the french already had a

deal to build submarines with their australian allies and they say this move was a stab in the back. on friday france took the exceptional step of recalling its ambassadors to washington and canberra. joining me now to talk about this is the former ambassador to washington, gerard araud. gerard, let me ask you first, the reaction of france seems genuinely one of shock, isn't that right? >> well, yes, it was a total astonishment. you know, the minister of defense and foreign affairs of australia were reaffirming the commitment to the contract the 13th of august. suddenly overnight it's denounced. and on top of that, it is denounced after obviously our closest allies brouplotting beh our back to kick us out of the

geo. so you have the closest eyes of the major interests. >> i think the way that washington would portray this, biden officials would, this is a big, strategic play, it's intended to deter china. it's unfortunate we had to do this in the way we did. my question is, was there a reason france could not have been part of the new arrangement, maybe with a reduced contract or even not at all, because the united kingdom didn't seem central to it and yet washington included it. could france have been part of a new contract where the american submarines were used but france was still a defense partner in some way? >> i think it's the right question, and actually, the french ambassador who met the secretary of state, who met the national security adviser, raised the question saying not

only as i said, we lose the contract but you kick us out of this partnership. because australia was our strategy partner. our navies had been training together, and we consider that australia was the computer of our indoor strategic strategy. >> do you think this will result in europe having a more independent strategy towards china? could the cost end up being that the eu does not fall in line with america's china strategy? which strikes me as a big deal because on issues like trade, the european union really is very powerful on trade. we do live in kind of a tripolar world. >> no, fareed, i don't think this storm will have major consequences in your home because for most europeans, it's a french problem. but we also have to see the

sequence. as you said, trump was a sty to your hope and basically we have the impression that biden doesn't care. of course, we had afghanistan but also when president biden came to euro, there was no proposed cooperation coming from the american side. since then, it's very difficult to say there is european policy of this administration. >> finally, gerard, do you think when all is said and done, will we be able to get back to some level of normalcy? france and the united states are long allies. they have had breaches like suez, vietnam, the iraq war, or is this something more lasting, do you think? >> no, i think our common interests to work together, but there is no love, there's only proof of love, so i think that

the american administration has to show, as i have said, they consider that the europens are a real partner in the common endeavor, and we are still waiting for that. >> in order to let's say the united states has another big foreign policy initiative, and wants france to come on board, does this make it harder because, you know, you have your own populism, you have your own nationalism, does it make it harder for president macron to support the united states, particularly on something controversial because his opponents will say, clearly, the americans don't care about france? >> no, i think you're right, fareed, and especially because in france, we are entering into a political campaign. the presidential elections in france are next year and we are a democracy so obviously, it

will make things more complicated to president macron. >> gerard araud, always a pleasure to hear you. you always give us great insight. thank you, sir. >> if you, fareed. next on "gps," global recovery from covid-19 will be at the top of the agenda at the u.n. general assembly this week. can leaders come together and make a plan to vaccinate the world? i sat down with the u.n. secretary-general antonio guterres in the u.n. security council this week. that interview when we come back. ♪ ♪ find a northwestern mutual advisor at nm.com growing up in a little red house, on the edge of a forest in norway, there were three things my family encouraged: kindness, honesty and hard work. over time, i've come to add a fourth: be curious.

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for speeches, meetings, conferences and more, all part of the annual u.n. general assembly. despite the fact that the host country, the united states, asked other nations to keep their delegations home to avoid turning the gathering into a superspreader event, leaders of more than 100 nations are still expected. that's well over half of the u.n. membership. playing host to them all and trying to gather consensus on solving the world's most pressing problems will be my guest, secretary german tono guterres. mr. secretary general, pleasure to have you on, welcome. >> it's an enormous pleasure to be with you again in this room. >> so people often said the thing we need to get global cooperation is a common enemy. the pandemic is a common enemy. covid is a common enemy. yet it has actually left countries to do the opposite of

cooperating. why, and is there any chance -- are you seeing signs that there is greater cooperation beginning? >> there are some positive signs. we had the imf together with the world bank, the world trade organization, proposing a building of $50 billion to allow for increased vaccination in developing countries. i know president biden is convening a summit to try to increase substantially the amount of vaccines available to the developing countries but let's be clear, all of this is too little too late. the fact is that the international community was not able to come together in relation to the cause. we have this absolutely unacceptable situation, where a

country like mine that was very successful as 80% of the country vaccinated. >> that's portugal and most of europe is. >> and we have countries in africa with less than 2%. >> when i look at it realisticty, it seems to me the only strategy that would work would be a joint u.s./chinese one because only the chinese companies will be able to produce the billions of vaccines you need. the western companies, those vaccines are spoken for already. there's no prospect, is there, of a cooperation between the united states and china to vacci vaccinate the world? >> i'm very worried about it, i am. we have two divides in the vaccine question. we have a north/south divide, where the north took care of its population and forgot largely about the south, and the south feels this is terribly unfair and this increases the mistrust of the global south in relation to the global north and the geo

strategy divide which is now between china and the united states. since the beginning, and talking with both sides, i have been saying that there are areas in which there is no possible agreement. there are areas in which a confrontation is inevitable. human rights is one of these areas. the other geostrategic questions for instance in the south china sea or taiwan, there are areas where there are different positions and it will not be easy to overcome these positions. there is an area where i believe there should be effective cooperation, climate. and then there are areas in which i believe a negotiation is necessary. a city is negotiation, because there are different interests but at the same time there are common interests. and these relate to trade and technology. now, we've seen that the areas of confrontation have dominated the relationship. we've seen that in climate, the

efforts of john kerry have largely failed because the chinese have said at the moment, well, we cannot have the cooperation on climate or on anything else. and on trade or technology, there's not been an effective negotiation. i think there's still time to do that. my appeal to both sides is, okay, we have the differences. the differences are clear. we need to keep those differences and, of course, to express very strong oppositions but we need to find areas in which we can seriously negotiate and trade and technology are the two areas in my opinion. and that would create an environment which then the cooperation on climate or cooperation on vaccines could become possible. i think the present satiituation which we move to totally

confrontation the countries is a dangerous situation for the world. and the risk of the economy to become two different celts of rules with two different parts of the world with two different current currencies and two different artificial intelligence on the digital world, and inevitably sooner or later, two conflicting strategies from the military and geostrategic dimensions. and this will be, of course, very dangerous. i believe that we need to avoid a new cold war because the old cold war was more easy to manage. it was clear. now things are more complex. >> when you tell the chinese government that they should allow the w.h.o. to conduct a proper investigation of covid, what is their response? >> their response is the investigation was already done properly. so this is a matter of different

opinion. >> but you know it wasn't. >> i knew there were aspects of a full investigation related to the kind of data that is produced in which what the w.h.o. is now requiring makes sense. >> and the chinese are not allowing that? >> as far as i know for the moment, they have refused these new requirements made by the world health organization. next on "gps," secretary-general guterres on the american withdrawal from afghanistan and whether the u.n. would work with the taliban. charlotte! charl! every day can be extraordinary with rich, creamy, delicious fage total yogurt. before we talk about tax-smart investing, what's new? -audrey's expecting... -twins! ♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. at fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan.

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we are back here on "gps." here is more of my interview with u.n. secretary-general antonio guterres. we talked in the security council chamber. the mural in the background offers a vision of the world of peace. but i was interested to her his thoughts on a currently war-torn nation. mr. secretary general, let me ask you about afghanistan. you recently said it was a fantasy to imagine that the united nations would be able to handle the afghan problem, and yet there are really at this point no governments even that recognize the taliban. very few are willing to provide aid that would help afghans from, you know, entering into a kind of starvation and poverty on a massive scale. isn't the solution for people -- for countries to be able to give the united nations the money so

that no one says that they are supporting the taliban and the united nations finds a way to distribute that aid towards nary afghans, or is that impossible? >> but that's exactly what we're asking for. i have sent to kabul the emergency grief coordinator and head of the humanitarian affairs sector, who was the first personality at military level that went to kabul and spoke with akahny, with all of those that matter. what i said about the fantasy is you cannot ask the u.n. to solve all of the problems that many countries, with hundreds of thousands of soldiers, with billions of different currencies, and with all of the means at their disposal for decades were not able to solve. and say now the u.n. goes there and solves everything.

if they have an inclusive government, they will have human rights and stop all terrorism and terrorist activities. let's be honest, we have not the capacity to do that. all of the others failed for decades. what we can do and we are doing is engage in the taliban, first of all, for humanitarian aid and to make them understand to have solidarity from the international community and to be able one day to have recognition for this international community, they need to deliver on the aspects that are very important for us, human rights for girls and women. the right to work, be at school at all levels, that it will be very important for them to be in the international community to avoid taliban to be a safe haven for terrorists. these are things we can engage with them, advocate for, but we have no illusion, the situation is unpredictable. and if someone today says that they know exactly how afghanistan will be in three

months' time, i think it's probably a prophet without of probability. >> but from your conversations with u.n. officials you sent to kabul, in the conversations with the taliban, what is the impression you are forming of the taliban? >> i think one thing is the conversation with a number of leaders and those conversations were very positive. the other thing is what exactly is the taliban movement in its entirety? we have witnessed in different parts of the country, there are different behaviors. we've seen the formation of this government has not yet been possible because there are divisions among the taliban leadership. this that was created was not a final government, it was kind of a preliminary government. so in my opinion, the situation is unpredictable. and because it is unpredictable, it's important to engage. and at the same time because the afghan people is suffering, it's important to support the afghan people.

if we do those two things, we might succeed, we might not, but it's our obligation for the u.n., that has been there since '47 until now and was there during the first taliban regime. it's important for us to stay and to deliver. >> finally, do you feel at this point in the pandemic, just to come full circle, do you feel at this point in the paenl more hopeful that there will be some international effort or less hopeful than you were a year ago? >> i think that now the situation has become so obviously threatening for everybody with these variants. the delta variant was a lesson to many, including where we are in the u.s. and there were recent news about other variants that might put into question the vaccines we have. i think now there is a

conscience that if we don't address quickly, the problems of those areas of the world in which the virus is still spreading like wildfire, we risk to have the covid as a permanent problem like the flu. and these impacts we are seeing in the global economy, this is something we need to avoid at all costs, and i think there's a growing conscience that this is the case, and i hope in the next few weeks, there will be effective progress in relation to the vaccination progress. >> mr. secretary-general, pleasure to have you on. >> up this. it was thank you very much. it was a great pleasure. next on "gps," justice stephen breyer of the united states supreme court. many say the current court is too political. he says their wrong. his argument when we come back. . a corner to build a legacy.

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this month the supreme court decided not to intervene to stop a texas law that dramatically restricts abortion rights. the decision was seen by many as a result of president trump's appointment of three justices, which shifted the court to the right. my next guest wrote a strong dissent in the texas decision. stephen breyer votes consistently with the court's liberal wing, and yet he believes in order to maintain its influence, the court must be a political and seen as apolitical. it's a opinion he defends persuasively in his new book "the authority of the court and the peril of politics." justice breyer joins me now. welcome. first, i have to tell you this is a terrific book. you've done a lot of interviews and not a lot of people have talked about the book, so i want to begin by recommending to people this really is a terrific book. thank you for writing it. >> oh, thank you. thank you very much. i'm glad you read it. >> let's start with your central

premise, which is the supreme court has a surprising amount of authority, as many would see as a pivotal play in american politics, despite the fact it has no power. as alexander hamilton said, you quoted, "don't worry about the supreme court, it has neither the power of the purse nor the sword." so what gives the court its authority? >> ultimately, it's the people in the united states, 331 million of them, 330 million are not lawyers, but ultimately those people have decided that they want to live together, every race, every religion, every point of view imaginable, and they have decided they want to live in one country together under law. that's an amazing thing in the history of the human race, and this document, the constitution of the united states, is really the basic law that they have

decided will hold them together. and the supreme court does typically have the final word as to the meaning of the words in this document. >> so it wasn't as always as easy as this. >> oh, no, it wasn't. >> you pointed to the decision in 1829, i think. the case was basically georgia discovered that -- the state of georgia discovered there was gold and land that was cherokee indian land. it had been given to the cherokees by treaty. georgia takes it. the cherokees take georgia to the supreme court. the supreme court rules in favor of the cherokee indians, and then what happens? >> well, that's the case where even though john marshall, the chief justice and the others decided that northern georgia belongs to the cherokee indians,

the president, andrew jackson, supposedly said john marshall, the chief justice maude his decision, now let him enforce it. and he sent troops, the president did, to northern georgia to enforce the decision no. rather than to kick out the indians. and they marched along the trail of tears, many dyeing, to oklahoma where their descendants live to this day. so it took a while, and there have been some terrible decisions of the supreme court. red scott, terrible. ferguson that started segregation in the south, terrible. but there also have been high points, brown versus board of education. there must be integration. legal segregation. >> you point out, justice brey, your secretary on brown is also

fascinating. brown v board of education saying separate but equal is not okay. you have to integrate the schools. in 1953 -- 1954, sorry, for three years nothing happens. nobody observes it, nobody follows it. then in '57 a federal tells arkansas that it has to admit nine black kids into an all-white school. tell that story of how close a call it was because even then people didn't want eisenhower to try to enforce this decision. >> it was a great decision of president eisenhower that he would send a thousand paratroopers, 101st airborne from ft. bragg to take those children in the school. but they couldn't stay forever, and when they left, the authorities in little rock tried to end integration and go back to segregation and the supreme

court said no, all nine justices said you must integrate. now, well, those are nine people. those are nine people. there could have been 900 judges, and there were a lot of people in the south who didn't want to. so what i think happened is that was the era of martin luther king. that was the era of the freedom riders. that was the era where the north, the entire country woke up -- woke up to the injustice of segregation, and they wouldn't have gotten anywhere, the judges, if it had not been for all of the people who aren't judges to begin to decide to bring justice to the south. no more legal segregation. and i told that story to a woman who is the president of the supreme court of ghana and wants ghana -- and wanted ghana to become more democratic, to

become more civil rights oriented. why? do people do what you say, she asked? i said you have to convince the people in the villages, in the towns, the millions who are not lawyers that it is in their interests to follow a rule of law. and that means not just the decisions you like but also decisions you don't like. like bush v gore, i i dissented in bush v gore but i heard the leader in the senate, harry reid, said the most remarkable thing about that opinion is people followed it without guns, riots and stones in the streets. when people think too bad there weren't, i mean, i thought it was wrong, and when i hear them say oh, well too bad there weren't a few riots, i say hey, it's not too difficult to see what happens in countries and in places and in times when people don't follow a rule of law.

it's terrible. so it's a miracle, it's a miracle this country in that respect. we're going to take a break. and when we come back, i want to talk to justice breyer precisely about bush v gore, this pivotal case that may have changed the court and left a long legacy. psst! psst! allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good.

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and we are back with justice stephen breyer of the supreme court of the united states. justice breyer, you were talking about bush v. gore and i want to ask a question about it in the central argument. your central argument, correct me if i'm wrong, we shouldn't think of judges as political in what they do. yes, we have differences but those differences are not partisan political, their jurisprudenceal, they're based on how people see the constitution of the law and original intent of those laws. so when you look at bush v. gore, this is the case that i think changed many people's view about that, because the constitution is pretty clear that the states get to decide who their electors are. in fact, that's what republicans are now using as a way to allow

states to do whatever they this want, with the electors -- in some cases no matter what happened in the election. states get to choose their electors. in bush v. gore, the conservatives who normally take the position that states' rights are important and states authority must not be overridden by the federal government, those conservatives switched and they ended up saying no, in this particular case, we the supreme court, we the federal government, have authority that trumps the state. and to a lot of people it looked like justices like justice scalia were completely reversing their long-held jurisprudenceal view to achieve a political outcome they wanted, the election of george w. bush. didn't that damage the court's legitimacy more than anything i can imagine? >> i can imagine worse things. what about plessy and ferguson?

what about separate but equal? but go back to the point, it would take me a while to convince you, more time than we have, that the constitution says that each state shall appoint in such manner as the legislature thereof may direct, the electors who will vote for the president and the majority of five thought that the lower courts in florida had not done what the legislature directed. i didn't agree with that one little bit but the people who were in dissent, and there were four, two were appointed by republican presidents and two were appointed by democratic presidents. i mean, i have never seen people trade votes on the supreme court. they haven't. and i can think of a lot of cases, even recently, we recently decided that gay people cannot be discriminated against by their employers and the five that made that up -- or four what you might call, quote, liberals, and one of them was not, what you might call a

conservative. three times the supreme court has upheld obamacare. and we did that recently by a vote of 7-2. so some cases come out in ways or views a political party, one or another might favor, and some do not. those differences of judicial philosophy, you pay more attention, complete attention to justice scalia like you do, dot text, or do you also bring in, as i might like to do, consequences and purposes and values? the word liberty in the constitution does not define itself. so there are many jurisprudenceal differences and it isn't totally jurisprudenceal but it isn't really right to say that it's political in the ordinary sense in politics. so you have to read this book with some care, as you've done, in order to see the complexity and nuance there.

>> so is this ideal of a nonpolitical court, of a nonpartisan court, so important to you that you are willing to risk the fact that your successor might undo much of what you regard as the good you've done and might take the court and the country in a very different direction? >> now, what we're doing is asking about will i retire, and eventually i will. i don't want to die there in office and i haven't decided exactly when, but there are a lot of considerations and i hope i take them all into account properly when the time comes to announce something. i will, but not here now. >> i think, as i said, this is a terrific book. and the central point you make, which that the courts have this mystical thing and should be preserved is so important.

stephen breyer, pleasure to have you on, sir. >> thank you very much. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. how much you'll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. talk to us today, so we can help you go from saving...to living. (man) my ex is dating a pisces. so i'm like, 'screw it. let's talk manifesting. let's talk chakras. let's talk self healing my way through the 12th house. (woman in van) set your intentions. (man sitting) crystals up. (woman) full moon bath ritual. cleanse and find your magic. ♪let it go (huh, huh)♪

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in new york, and this is "reliable sources." we examine the story behind the story and figure out what is reliable. this hour brand-new stories, scoops you haven't heard yet from the new book "peril: trump's final days in office." and why this "the wall street journal" series is different from all of the past reporting of social media problems. and later what nin