good evening. facebook likes to say it was built to bring people together. it literally uses those words in promotional material. well, today, it did bring people together. for the first time in a long time, democratic and republican members of a senate commerce subcommittee were together, united in their praise of whistle-blower frances haugen. now, as you know, she is the former-facebook product manager who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents indicating that facebook knows the harm that they and instagram can do but chooses to put clicks, eyeballs, and ad sales ahead of fixing the problem. >> the company's leadership knows how to make facebook and instagram safer but won't make the necessary changes because they have put their astronomical profits before people.

the documents i have provided to congress prove that facebook has repeatedly misled the public about what its own research reveals about the safety of children, the efficacy of its artificial-intelligence systems, and its role in spreading divisive and extreme messages. >> as you'd imagine, this is not the company's public position. listen to what ceo mark zuckerberg told lawmakers just last march. >> the research that we've seen is that using social apps to -- to connect with other people can have positive mental-health benefits and wellbeing benefits. like helping people feel more connected and -- and less lonely. >> mark zuckerberg talking about the research that he's seen. now, frances haugen on research we do not know whether he's actually seen but he was certainly privy to because it was done by the company, itself, his company. >> facebook's own research about instagram contains quotes from kids saying i feel bad when i use instagram. but i also feel like i can't stop.

right? i -- i know that the more time i spend on this, the worse i feel. but like, i just can't -- like, that they want the next click. they want the next like. >> and in general, so do instagram and facebook because that increases engagement which, in turn, helps advertising revenue. that much is a simple fact about the way that social networks operate. the fundamental question is does facebook build their algorithm knowing it harms certain users? frances haugen says the answer's very simply yes. >> is facebook ever offered features that it knew had a negative effect on children's and teens' mental health? >> facebook knows that its amplification algorithms, things like engagement-based ranking on instagram, can lead children from very innocuous topics like healthy recipes. i think all of us could eat a little more healthy. um, all the way from just something innocent like healthy

recipes to anorexia-promoting content over a very short period of time. >> today's hearing focused heavily on facebook and instagram's impact on kids. it also dealt with facebook's real in amplifying election lies, political violence, and everything else surrounding the 2020 election and attack on the capitol. now, before we play you some of that testimony, though, here's what facebook's vice president for content policy said on cnn earlier today. >> responsibility for january 6th lies with those who broke the law and those in politics and elsewhere who incited them. and the work that we did, both before the election and all the way through january 6th. partnering with academics and researchers. working closely with law enforcement and electoral authorities to understand what the risks were. and to put safety measures in place that -- that started before the election, well before the election, and continued through march. that was work that i am very proud to have been a part of. i've -- i've, frankly, never seen, you know, such an effort to prepare for an election.

>> now, those safety measures were aimed at limiting the spread of falsehoods, misinformation, and incitement. and as you heard ms. haugen say on the program last night, they did not work very well. and any case, the safeguards were lifted immediately after the election and restrictions on the so-called stop the steal movement weren't imposed until after the capitol attack. now today, ms. haugen had this to say about why in her judgment the company did not maintain those safeguards longer. >> the choices that were happening on the platform were really about how reactive and twitchy was the platform? right? like, how viral was the platform? and facebook changed those safety defaults in the run-up to the election because they knew they were dangerous. and because they wanted that growth back, they wanted the acceleration on the platform back after the election, they -- they returned to their original defaults. and the fact that they had to -- to break the glass on january 6th and turn them back on, i think, that's deeply problematic. >> so, did the lawmakers questioning ms. haugen, the company in recent days, has pointed to a research project it

set up with an outside panel of experts to study the platform's effect on the election. however, the company's own press release on it openly suggests it doesn't consider itself bound by any recommendations that should come from it. and as for how the company treats its own internal research, just last week, it published two of the internal studies which were cited today on the harmful mental health impact instagram has on teen girls. notably, though, it came with facebook's own added annotations rebutting or reframing some of the negative points. not the picture of a company willing to take a hard look at itself, at least not in public. as for inside corporate walls? well, frances haugen spoke to that, as well, today. >> i think in general, but i'd like you to just confirm for me, this research and the documents containing that research is not only findings and conclusion, it's also recommendations for changes? what i hear you saying is that,

again and again and again, these recommendations were just rejected or disregarded, correct? >> there is a pattern of behavior that i saw at facebook of facebook choosing to prioritize its profits over people. and anytime that facebook faced even tiny hits to growth, like .1% of sessions, 1% of -- of views -- that it chose its profits over safety. >> joining us now is former-elections integrity head at facebook. former-cia officer and former-white house adviser. also, jennifer, associate professor of communications at syracuse university who studies the harmful effects of social media on teens. you have been speaking out about what you say are the dangers of facebook since you left the company. how big of a watershed moment you think was today, given the focus is now on the company's own documents? >> well, thanks for having me on, anderson. i think it is a huge watershed moment.

but only if we actually do something with the information. you know, everything that's in the documents, especially the documents that were turned over to the s.e.c. which have now been released, i think, only today publicly. they just demonstrate the internal knowledge of what facebook does and doesn't know about exactly what's happening on their platform. and it confirms what a lot of researchers, activists, former employees such as myself have been saying for years. so again, it's up to lawmakers now. it's not about whether facebook and good or bad or does more good than bad. it's about whether or not there are some practices that have harmed democracy, harmed individuals, and potentially broken the law. and what the leadership knew about it. this should absolutely be a huge watershed moment, and should really make the public understand that at this point we can no longer just rely on facebook's own self-selected data points and their own talking points when they like

to -- >> jennifer, a lot of people made the analogy to big tobacco purposely misleading the public about the dangers of smoking. and when that was revealed. do you think this is as bad as that? >> it's very different. over time, you know, it may take several years for cancer to manifest. but what we're seeing on instagram is an imminent threat to teenagers. i am seeing self-harm. and that sounds so abstract when the senators are talking about it. but what does that look like? i'm talking about starvation. that is how bad the anorexia photos are up there. i'm talking about teenagers cutting themselves. this context needs to be out there so that parents understand what this looks like. and it's not simply just, like, smoking a cigarette. sure, the regulation down the road, you know, maybe, we have to manage it that way.

but i think we need that context right now. >> you know, as a former cia officer, you have said in an interview that facebook knows you better than the cia ever will. which is -- i mean, it's a fascinating thing. a fascinating quote. um, you said facebook knows more about you than you know about yourself. that is the remarkable thing. and, you know, written about this in his book that, you know, we forget about ourselves. we forget. my mind is like a sieve. i forget things i did ten years ago or last week. facebook remembers and it's all there. they know more. they know about everybody who is a customer of theirs. >> yeah. i mean, of course, it was a little bit tongue in cheek but it really is actually true. and this is what i think people really need to understand. it's not about -- again, it's not about facebook purposely or intentionally saying we want to go harm teenaged girls. or we want to radicalize people. i mean, the most shocking revelation to me was the whole idea of how algorithms were recommending extremist groups

which is the core of what i used to work on and what i talked about. but how do they do that? they do that because they hoover up all of your data around the internet, not just when you're using facebook. and they segment you into these profiles to sell you -- basically, they're not selling your data but they are selling a profile of you through targeting tools to advertisers. and in order to do that, they have to keep hoovering up our data. and so, then they start to infer not just who you are, what photo you posted today. but what's going to really kind of play to your vulnerabilities? and what -- what message is going to keep you coming back for more? and that's why i say they know more about you than you do yourself. because i might go onto instagram or -- or it's not just facebook, let's be clear. onto youtube or -- or any of these companies looking for

something. and they have inferred that if i am looking for certain political content, that the next thing that i might be interested in is actually the slightly more extreme content. and their own research shows which is in one of the s.e.c. filings, that people who go onto look for political content, especially conservative-political content, humor, not necessarily anything nefarious, within two days, are being recommended conspiracy theories. and within under a week, being recommended qanon content. so, that's what i mean by they know more about you than you do yourself or they think they do. they are pushing ideas at you. >> well, jennifer, i mean, that's one of the things when you look at qanon. you know, there have been a lot of, you know, interviews with people who were online. interviews with moms looking for yoga classes or interested in yoga or, you know, caring about kids, obviously, and wanting to protect children. and then, very -- through algorithms -- were ultimately led into, you know, qanon ideas which kind of targeted that.

>> so it's pretty easy for these groups to get radicalized and established quickly on facebook. like, qanon is more political in nature. but i want to bring back -- us back to instagram because it's different. it's a different platform, culturally. and when the teens are brought together there, it feels a little bit more like a cult. okay? you have to communicate through symbols. and the way that the recommendations are picking out their friends, you know, again, you could be brought into essentially depressive communities when you weren't depressed before. and so again, i want to raise this to the attention of parents because, again, there's something different about instagram. and i think we need to talk about that more. >> you know, well, jennifer, to your point, i mean, i'm on instagram and i enjoy it. i look at -- you know, i follow friends and look at art sites and things like that. but i got to say, it depresses me. i mean, i leave feeling worse than when i got on not only because i have just wasted eternal amounts of time just

scrolling through the -- the -- the images i follow. but i -- i feel worse about my own life. i cannot imagine what a teenager feels. i mean, i'm supposedly an adult. what some kid feels looking at other people's lives and how their lives seem much more exciting than their own. >> we need to humanize this experience more and talk about more what the teens are experiencing. we have seen a lot of data and numbers go by. but like, let me tell you what they are saying is just absolutely horrific. they are imitating each other in these behaviors because they want belonging on there. they want to connect. and they're not just experiencing friendship in real life like we would, you know, when we were kids. but like, they are living a hybrid life. they are living in a digital world, too. and maybe, they were happy one day and then they get recommended into this downward spiral. and then, there's almost like a communal depression amongst them. and that's a problem and i'm not seeing that happen on other platforms in the same way, especially amongst teens. we need to address this and we

need to -- to help improve this community. it's dire. >> frances haugen testified today that integrity teams at facebook -- and i mean, you know, i'm glad there are integrity teams at facebook but that they are underresourced and -- and that's one of the reasons they're -- you know, these problems are not getting fixed. and it's not -- there is not the economic incentive necessarily for facebook to really want to fix some of these things. your -- in your experience, how much bigger is the problem than just that? >> so yeah, that's a key element but i would take it a step further. i mean, a lot of the documents she showed as well as many things many of us have been saying proves there are people that work there who fundamentally want to make the platform better. who really want to make it safer for the public and who have proposed very real potential solutions including my team. one thing we proposed solutions to ensure voter suppression wasn't happening in political advertising. but they are definitely not viewed -- so the integrity teams are a cost center.

they are not a revenue generator. they are not contributing to growth. they are the ones saying slow down. they are the ones saying wait a minute. we need to consider how this is it affecting x, y, or z. and so, they are always going to be second tier. they're never going to be prioritized. but i would also argue in addition to being underresourced and not nearly enough people hired, you also have to empower the people you hire because when they like to brag about the 35,000 or 40,000 people they've hired to work on safety which, by the way, many are contractors. they -- i was one of those people. and i was never empowered to take my team's ideas and solutions -- many of the same types of things that ms. haugen talked about today -- and actually get those approved by the higher-ups. and so, it's -- it's both that they're underresourced and that they're not empowered to be -- to make the ultimate decisions that, at the end of the day, protect their -- not just their growth and their profit. let's be clear, also, their political power, right?

>> right. >> like, a lot of the decisions that i was rebuffed against when i worked there was very clear that they didn't want to anger the incumbent power, the administration at the time and some of the things that my team was proposing might have ended up doing that. >> i appreciate it. jennifer, thank you so much. fascinating. we should note we invited facebook to come on the program tonight. they declined. next breaking news. both families in the gabby petito and brian laundrie story speaking out. some also lashing out. later, the rioters wanted a rope around his neck but he is turning the other cheek or just ignoring it, altogether. what on earth may be making mike pence so eager for us all to forget the violent mob that literally wanted to hang him on the 6th of january? well, i think you can guess. our david gergen joins us with his thoughts, ahead. start your day with crest 3d white and from mochaccinos to merlot, your smile will always be brilliant. crest 3d white brilliance. 100% stain removal, 24 hour stain resistance to lock in your whitest smile.

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and step parents have sat down for an interview. in addition, laundrie's sister is speaking out, talking to cnn's leyla santiago just a short time ago. she joins us now from north port, florida. so i know you spoke to brian's sister cassie. what did she say? >> anderson, one of the things we talked about was just what is her relationship with her parents like right now? she said she hasn't spoken to them in about two weeks and that the last time she spoke to them, it was a very short conversation. she says their attorney has made it clear to her that her parents are not to answer any questions regarding brian and gabby even to their own daughter, cassie laundrie. now, she also said that when they did talk, it was a very short conversation. mostly, about cassie's own kids. and after that, they just stopped talking. not -- not a lot of detail. so, very short conversations and few and far between. >> and gabby petito's parents and step parents were on dr. phil's show today, i understand?

>> right. they -- the four of them sat down with dr. phil and, you know, they spoke to the media last week in a press conference. and in that press conference, they -- they told the world really that they wanted brian laundrie to turn himself in. they -- they wouldn't talk about their relationship with the laundrie family. but in that interview, we learned that there was at least some attempt, according to the petito family, to reach out to the laundrie family when they started to get concerned. listen. >> the van got there and whatever happened with his parents after that, i don't know. >> both called roberta asking. >> called and text. >> roberta, i need the phone number i can get for that family. either -- there were a couple numbers for the mom. >> police officers called her. detectives called her. >> but you all called? >> yes. >> you called?

you called? you called? >> i can't tell you how many times. >> he called. >> and what was -- what did you get? >> voice mails. >> nothing. >> voice mails. >> and then, i would send texts on top of that. >> no response? >> one of the texts -- i mean, i -- we're going to call the police, right? you know, just letting you know because we have no idea. no responses. no -- a normal parent, when you text someone that they're going to call the cops because you can't find your child, they would reply. >> nothing. >> no response. no nothing. >> reporter: and, anderson, the parents also talked about how, initially, they thought gabby and brian were missing until they realized that gabby's van was right here in north port, florida, at the laundrie family home. now, as you might imagine, this was a pretty emotional interview. and -- and you could really feel the pain from gabby's mother when she talked about the moment they were notified. that human remains were found in wyoming.

>> said they found remains. and we knew it was gabby even though we were hoping it wasn't. hard. it was the hardest thing i ever had to listen to, and it didn't hit me right away for a few seconds. but i -- i knew she was gone. >> at what point did your mother's intuition tell you that she was gone? >> i didn't want to admit it, but i felt it the night i found out the van was in florida on the 11th. i felt in my heart that she was gone. >> reporter: and you can really feel that pain in her voice. i mean, september 11th. so, more than three weeks ago

was when she was reported missing. several days later was when brian laundrie, according to his parents, was last seen. >> and does gabby petito's family think that laundrie is alive and -- and out there somewhere? >> well remember, anderson, last week, they called for him to turn himself in. and in a very similar message today with dr. phil. listen. >> do you believe he's hiding somewhere? >> i -- i do. >> why do you believe that? >> because he's a coward. flat out. i'd use some other words but i can't use 'em on your show. coward. >> he's too coward to kill himself. too coward to come forward? >> yep. >> he's just on the run? >> anyone who lived in that house is a coward. >> is he living off the land somewhere? >> possibly. >> does he have that skill set? >> i believe so. >> is he an environmentalist/survivalist type? he knows his camping? knows -- >> i believe he bragged about that.

like, that he was good at that stuff. >> and the attorney for the laundrie parents has said that brian's parents don't know where he is. and in the statement, says they are hoping that the fbi can find their son. >> leyla santiago, appreciate it. thank you. up next, we are going to dig into the hunt for brian laundrie with someone who knows how these things work. a former commander of the u.s. marshals.

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more now on our breaking news on the killing of gabby petito and the search for her missing fiance brian laundrie. as leyla santiago reported earlier, petito's parents and step parents gave they first in-depth interview today on the dr. phil show. her mom believes laundrie could still be alive living off the land and they are calling on him to turn hips in. there is also leyla's reporting. she spoke with brian's sister and says her parents are keeping her in the dark at the guidance of an attorney. joining us, lenny depaul, former commander of the regional task force for new york and jersey. as leyla noted, gabby's parents and step parents also told dr. phil how infuriating it was to reach out to laundrie's parents when they first became concerned, heard nothing back. is that -- i mean, how common is it to have a situation where you have one family reaching out to another? >> well, good evening, anderson. and it's a little bizarre. i mean, i think that the

laundrie family was sending the petito family a strong message. and it kind of went something like this. we don't like what our son just told us so we're not answering the phone. and our attorney said don't talk to anybody. and again, that's just my opinion. >> yeah. i mean, one would -- i mean, there's no reason for that family not to talk to the petitos, unless they have information which is bad for their son and they don't want to get involved or don't want to help the -- the -- the petito family. >> you would think so. i mean, gabby lived with them prior to them going across country. i'm sure, you know, they got engaged. unfortunately, covid prevented them from getting married. you would think the families were somewhat close or at least had conversations in the past. so why -- why would they not return their calls? even after i they joe petito threatened to call the police, they still didn't return their calls. and eventually, they did call a nonemergency number several times and responded and then, of

course, we all know that day that they knocked on the petito family's door. the police did. and said well, the van's there but unfortunately gabby's not. and that was the -- you know, it was the start of the bad news. >> and in all your years i mean of tracking people, does -- does everybody talk to somebody? i mean, is it -- are there people who -- i mean, i'm sure some people have just kind of disappeared and broken off all communication with everyone they've ever known. but the vast majority of people, do they remain in contact while they're on the run with people? >> you know, a lot of them do and -- and in this particular situation, i don't think this was a well-thought-out plan, to be honest with you. i think this was a knee-jerk reaction, as his sister cassie said, he is very familiar with the appalachian trail. he's been there before numerous times. he goes off the grid for a couple of weeks by himself. i think he is hiding somewhere there. i mean, you know, he's dark, he is a obviously off the grid. he is not communicating with anybody. he's going to run out of provisions. he is going to make a mistake or somebody else is and then hopefully law enforcement is,

you know, connecting the dots and they're watching and they can make this arrest without incident. >> do you think he is a threat to other people? >> possibility. i mean, just knowing a little bit about his background. um, the way he carries himself. you know, kind of scratching my head. i mean, here is a guy that's all over social media. he was documenting i mean every minute of that trip they were taking and now he's dark. i mean, that's -- that is a psychological profile, in itself. i mean, he's now not communicating with anybody. he is not on social media. he's not on youtube. he's gone dark so i'm sure there's some issues going on in his head and he is certainly sleeping with one eye open. >> when people are on the run, i mean, psychologically, what kind of -- i mean do they change? what does it -- what does it do to somebody? >> well, i mean, human instincts turn into animal instincts and that's certainly the case here. i mean, he is off the grid. he is not used to playing fugitive, i would say. or he is not a career criminal and again i don't think he planned this. he doesn't have the funding to go jump on an airplane. he certainly didn't do that. his picture is coast to coast.

i don't think he is on a boat sitting in cuba. he's local. he's local. you know, he's not like a whitey bulger as we spoke about recently. so he doesn't have that type of communication or funding or -- or those resources. so he's local. is somebody helping him? possibly. we, you know, i got a pretty good feeling his family is. his mom, dad, certainly know, you know, couple weeks ago where he was headed and what he was doing just by their reaction. >> the homicide investigation continues in wyoming. the cause of death has not been -- has not been released. i assume investigators don't want to reveal details like that -- um -- just to -- because it's an ongoing investigation and it might be -- there might be some details they want to hold back for -- for legal reasons? >> right. they don't want to tip their hand. i mean, the investigation -- you know, the homicide investigation is -- is ruled a homicide, rather. they've collected what they've done, the toxicology reports are in. everything is done.

they are doing their homework. hopefully, they can get enough evidence where they can indict somebody and then, yeah, the cause of death is going to be important. was it a gunshot wound? a knife stabbing? was it a blunt instrument? i mean, that's, you know, i think investigators need to know that on the fugitive side. these fugitive investigators, you know, they're out there doing -- doing their job and if they confront this guy and he gets pinned down or the noose starts tightening, is he carrying a weapon? is it suicide by cop? i mean, a lot of that goes through your head as you, you know, as you -- as you tighten that perimeter up and get a bead on this guy. >> lenny depaul, appreciate it. up next, breaking news involving the subpoenas in the investigation to the january 6th riots. plus, he was a target of the mob on that day. some wanted to hang him. now, as you might predict, the former-vice president is rewriting history saying the media is focusing on one day in january to demean supporters -- all the supporters of former -- of the former president. hear his comments.

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january-6th riot has not been able to serve a key subpoena to one of the people they want information from. cnn congressional correspondent ryan nobles joins us with the latest. so what do we know about this? >> anderson, we are talking about the former white house deputy chief of staff, dan scavino. and we have learned through multiple sources connected to the january-6th select committee, that they have been unable to formally serve scavino with the subpoena. now, this is important because the select committee has set as a deadline for the response for the first round of the subpoena request which is a document request by thursday at midnight. but yet, they've still been unable to formally serve him with the subpoena. of course, that subpoena also includes an in-person deposition which is scheduled for next week. this, obviously, complicates an already-complicated process, anderson. the committee was already bracing for what they expected to be a lengthy legal challenge in the compliance of these subpoenas. but the fact that they haven't

been able to even serve scavino creates a real barrier because they can't even begin that process. so, this is a setback for the committee right now as they can't even find scavino right now to serve him with that subpoena. >> and has the committee been successful in serving subpoenas to other former-trump officials? >> well, that's not exactly clear tonight. of course, remember that first round of four subpoenas -- the -- those key names, mark meadows, former chief of staff, former dod official, and, of course, steve bannon, a former-white house counsel and a close trump ally. we know that cash patel has said publicly that he received the subpoena and we have no indication that they have had any issues serving subpoenas against meadows and against bannon. and of course, there is another long list of trump supporters and allies, people that helped form the stop the steal rally on the day of january 6th who have all been served subpoenas. that process is still ongoing and that deadline is a bit later. so at this point, the only problem that we know of is with

scavino and of course it comes as that deadline is just a couple days away. >> appreciate the update. more on the january 6th riot, former-vice president mike pence trying to rewrite history and pave the way toward his own presidential run. claiming media coverage is meant to demean former supporters of the president. you may remember, some of those who stormed the capitol were chanting hang mike pence. i don't know if he is forgotten that because he had to be taken to a secure location because he -- his life was in danger. instead, he went on fox news, though, with a conspiracy theory and tried to do a makeover for his reputation. >> i know the media wants to distract from the biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in january. they want to use that one day to try and demean the -- the -- the character and intentions of 74 million americans who believed we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our administration in 2016 and -- and 2020.

>> he lies in such an earnest way, doesn't he? steely eyed lies. pence's comments are just the late nest a campaign by republicans who seem to be moving the party further and further from reality. joining us now to talk about it, cnn senior political analyst, david gergen. cnn's amanda carpenter. david, mick pence is sitting there with his face, blaming the media, calling the riots one day in january, while protestors chanted to hang him. it was interesting when -- when -- when sean hannity actually asked him act his ongoing -- what his relationship is like now with the former president. he got off that topic real quick, and didn't actually have really any details to say because, clearly, there isn't much of a relationship. >> well, that's exactly right, anderson. it has been reported that he has not spoken to donald trump by phone or in person since april. that's hardly a close relationship.

now, in fairness to, you know, pence, his team argues, yes, they are having to navigate with trump, on one hand. but what's really going on is they are gearing up for -- to run for president. whether or not trump gets in, pence intends to get in and he is doing what a good candidate does right now. he is testing the waters, trying to straighten himself out with -- with trump. he is raising -- putting together a team. and he is also trying to raise tons of money. some $18 million. but that -- that may be what they think they're doing but every time you go and kiss the ring -- i don't care who you are, what kind of intentions you have -- you go kiss donald trump's ring, you come across looking like a lackey. you know, a servile man servant and that's what happened to trump -- to pence with this. he enlarged trump and he diminished himself. and you can't get away from that. this is why it's going to be so hard for candidates under -- who are running against the democrats -- they -- what do you do about trump? how do you deal with this? because it always comes up with this kind of sense if you kiss the ring, there you go.

you're a person of weakness. >> yeah. amanda, it's not even clear the former president will let him in his -- in his radius enough to actually kiss his ring. so i guess the closest is, you know, licking sean hannity's ring. is there anything -- i mean, it is extraordinary. it's almost an insult to the secret service who risk their own lives to kind of rush him and his family out of the senate chamber. um, for him to now kind of be pretending like, oh, it wasn't any big deal. >> listen. what mike pence is trying to do here is distract from his role in january 6th. >> right. >> his play to the potential 2024 republican voter is, hey, if you are like many of the republicans who voted for trump because of his policies but didn't like his personality. i mean, how many times have you heard that? i'm your guy. i'm the guy that kept the ship steady in the trump white house. you can count on me because, you know, at the end of the day on january 6th, i did my duty and you should give me credit for that.

but i think that is a joke. because mike pence went along with every single bit of it until, you know, the last minute that day. when mike pence pitches himself as this steady, reliable, constitutional conservative, i think he should be asked, why did you stay so quiet about your role in certifying the election until january 6th? because his silence gave the insurrectionists hope. he -- they gave -- he gave them inspiration. they all were depending on the idea that maybe mike pence, if he wouldn't stop the certification, he would delay it or maybe send it back from the states. we know all this from the eastman memo. mike pence entertained all of that until the very last minute. had he come out maybe, like, even bill barr did in december and said, you know what? there is no widespread fraud. i'm out of here. january 6th may not have happened. but mike pence went along with it, and that is why he wants to minimize and say it was just one -- one thing that happened,

one day. no, no, no. it was there many months in the making, and he was there for every bit of it. >> yeah, i mean, david, if that mob had been able to catch, you know, mike pence or a member of his family. i don't think he'd be calling it just one day in -- in -- you know, in january. >> just one day in january. just one day in -- title to a song, maybe. listen. he -- he came, according to the good reports, he came within 60 seconds of being grabbed by the mob. and there were people in that mob who wanted to hang him. you know, that is -- if you look at that, how can he just talk about just one day it's being -- you know, just like it wasn't a big deal. we moved on. this is the first time that this capitol has been -- has been assaulted like this since the war of 1812. you got to go back to 1812. just in the last days, we have had 600 people who have been charged with -- with crimes across 40 states.

we know that there are at least 100 policemen who were injured. we know four or five died. you know, how much do you need to know that it wasn't just one day in january? >> yeah. i mean, yeah. mike pence, long ago, you know, sold his whatever integrity he -- he may have had at one point. david gergen, amanda carpenter, appreciate it. thank you. up next, a woman who saw the former president's propaganda machine up close and wrote about it in a new book. hear what the former white house russia adviser says about the similarities between the former president and vladimir putin and if she thinks it's dangerous if the former president runs again. fiona hill joins us, next. i've always focused on my career. but when we found out our son had autism, his future became my focus. lavender baths always calmed him. so we turned bath time into a business. and building it with my son has been my dream job. at northwestern mutual, our version of financial planning

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before the break, we told you about the really kind of pathetic whitewashing of january 6th by former vice president pence and members of the republican party. there was plenty of propaganda coming out of the former administration when they were in the white house. our next guest saw it first-hand. fiona hill is the former white house adviser on russia and she testified in the president's first impeachment hearing. she's the author of a new book,

there's nothing for you here, and she joins us now. thank you for being with us. first of all, when you hear former vice president pence, you know, calling january 6th just one day in january, i wonder how you feel. >> well, look, it's very disappointing because on january 6th, vice president pence actually did something very courageous in the moment. there was a lot of pressure on him not to certify the elections. he remembered his constitutional oath and the commitment he made to the country and the people of the country and did the right thing in the moment. the fact he is now reversing course, pretending this was no big deal whatsoever, you could tell his voice in the moment when we heard him on television in the process of certification and the stories around that, he realized how momentous it was. it's disappointing, like letting us all down. >> in your new book, you talk

about the events surrounding sixty-six. you called it a slow motion coup attempt. could you explain what went through your mind that day and in the days and weeks that followed? >> well, i was so emotional because it was a long tail to it. you opened with a clip of my testimony at the first impeachment trial. and really t all began in the incidents that led up to that first impeachment. the efforts to manipulate the government of ukraine into declaring some kind of investigation into joe biden and to his son hunter biden, all intended to put joe biden out of contention in the presidential campaign. and then from then on, president trump talking down the elections, saying they were going to be falsified, saying they were going to be stolen. then when the actual moment came, saying he hadn't lost, he had won, that everything was a lie. we're continuing with this.

everything you're talking about in the previous segment just suggests we're not out of this situation. we're still having all of the lies about what happened in 2020 and what's going to happen in 2024. >> in the book, you write a lot about vladimir putin obviously, his ability to manipulate people, including donald trump. do you think trump has managed also to tap into some of those same tactics here in the u.s., particularly with members of the republican party? or is it just the fact he has so much support among the base that he doesn't even need to be particularly clever and manipulative? >> it's a bit of a mixture of both. there's a well trod playbook that vladimir putin and many other authoritarian leaders have laid out. a lot is the manipulation of the information space, conspiracy theories, telling them lies and giving them voracity because it's you, the president of the united states, very significant. the environment of the president saying it, for instance, but

that support is critical, because what president trump has done, just like president putin, is he's got rid of the party. there isn't much of a republican party except for a personal cult around trump himself, and everyone has to appeal to him to actually still be in the political mix. that's exactly the same with putin in russia. and trump is appealing directly to people themselves. without the party, without any of the institutions, it's just exactly the same kind of play we see in russia. >> you also wrote something fascinating. you write in the book, and it's worrying, russia is america's ghost of christmas future. a harbinger of things to come if we can't adjust course and heal our political polarization. that's terrifying. >> it is terrifying. that's actually why i wrote it. i think we're looking now at the kind of scenario we saw in russia over the last 20 years where vladimir putin came in after a decade of chaos. he said i'm going to make russia great again. what he did instead is turn the clock back on democratization in russia and of course, we have seen the annexation of crimea, all kinds of escapades on the international stage, but the most important thing is the way he turned the clock back on the developments going on in russian

politics. >> given everything we know, if the former president runs again, what do you think that means for our future, for the future of the country? >> we're on a completely different path than we have been on for the last several hundred years. we're back on the path to tyranny, and i don't say that lightly. once you get someone who has no real respect for the institutions built up over hundreds of years, laid down in the constitution and only thinks about themselves, then we forget what we're all. the preamble of the institution is we the people. there are 330 million of us. and are we just going to throw away what everybody, all our forbearers and all of our family members have done over all of these years to try to build america up and the democracy we have today, and we're going to just cast it all away over one guy, and a group of people who are in thrall of one person. >> fiona hill, such a pleasure to have you on. you new book, there's nothing for you here, finding opportunity in the 21st century, went on sale today. there's nothing for you here, that's something your dad said to you. you have such an incredible story of achievement.

i look forward to people reading the book. i look forward to it as well. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. up next, an announcement about a special guest tomorrow. we'll be right back. rement, she, "what if i could retire sooner?" and so she'll get some advice from fidelity, and fidelity will help her explore some different scenarios, like saving more every month. ♪ and that has carla feeling so confident that she can enjoy her dream... right now. that's the planning effect, from fidelity. football, is a game of inches. but it's also a game, of information. because the nfl is connected. and at any moment, the fate of the season can come down to this. billions of secure connections, per second. when the game is on the line and the game is always on the line

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