january 6 committee and the national archives. why? we'll go into the details and the legalities or lack thereof. but here is the real answer. he's doing it to delay. and before you take any satisfaction in that, it may well work. the former president's not putting any muscle behind blocking bannon or any of the people the committee wants to testify. why? well, instead, trump's lawyers are focusing on stopping what they may really be worried about, what they call, quote, sweeping requests for documents and records. why? because people can control what they say.

they can spin. they can say they don't recollect. they can explain. documents don't. so keep in mind, for all the bluster about executive privilege, when it comes to bannon, committee chair congressman bennie thompson says, quote, the former president has not communicated any such assertion of privilege when it comes to his conversations with a man who at the time was the host of a podcast, not a close counselor as part of the government. meaning the only legal claim of privilege we've seen from trump is about the documents. so the party that he is targeting, the national archives, told him, quote, absent any intervening court order they plan on handing the records over. and they should. why? because in a statement from the white house, joe biden, president now, is standing by his decision to not assert privilege, because, quote, former president trump abused the office of the presidency and attempted to subvert a peaceful transfer of power. remember, everything about how this privilege and how it has been exercised suggests it is the sitting president with the power to assert executive privilege, period. sitting president.

again, why does this matter to trump? this isn't about why biden does or doesn't want to -- he can do whatever he wants, okay? he doesn't even have to explain it when it comes to the privilege. documents can't plead the fifth. they can't suddenly claim not to remember. if anybody knows the value of documents, it is donald trump. he spent his presidency fighting to keep documents like his taxes and bank loans away from you and congress. the one document he was quick to hand over, remember the transcript of his so-called perfect phone call? it got him impeached. my next guest knows the importance of documents. he was special counsel in that impeachment. norm eisen, welcome back. neither of us is surprised by this move. but maybe the former the move takes is a little surprising to

you. what do you think of it in terms of its tactic and its likelihood of success? >> chris, thanks for having me back on the program. we talked about this as one of the strategies. would the committee be forced to make the first move to enforce or would trump go to court to block. i do not think that this lawsuit that was filed today is going to result in the withholding of these documents. the president is essentially making two arguments, chris. he's saying, first, this is an overbroad subpoena, the committee is asking for too much. and second, that even if it's not overbroad, these documents are protected by executive privilege. the confidentiality that the law enshrines for presidential communications. but chris, when you look at the underlying purpose of this

committee and the law that applies, that you need to have a valid legislative purpose, what could be more important than investigating an insurrection against the united states? so clearly this is not overbroad. they're doing their job. and then on executive privilege, the complaint talks again and again about the president. but donald trump is not the president. joe biden is the president. joe biden is the one who decides whether to apply these confidentiality rules. and he said no as to the initial set of documents. so i don't think it will work. and as you point out, it's a delay game. nobody has had the chutzpah to make these arguments before. and donald trump is hoping to tie up the courts in the aspiration that congress flips and he gets out of his subpoenas. >> let's litigate. the delay works, because even garbage takes time to be thrown out. he's going to put it in. they're going to have to calendar it.

they're going to have to have hearings. they're going to have to have pretrial hearings. they're not going to do what you and i would call an article 78 proceeding which is some speedy one and done. even if he gets an unusually conscientious judge who deals with this with all celerity and dispatch, he can appeal, and he can appeal that appeal. and who knows, maybe the supreme court thinks it's interesting to talk about. what were your thoughts about that? >> well, it's a risk, there's no doubt about it. he had success with it when he was in the white house. but chris, he's not in the white house now. he's bringing this lawsuit. the burden is on him. and, you know, the courts can move fast when it's an

emergency. >> is it? >> in the historic nixon white house tapes case, four months, chris. this is an emergency. you and i have talked about this. our democracy is under attack. donald trump's attacks, his big lie driven assaulted on our democracy has not stopped, it's intensifying. the courts need to handle with dispatch. congress needs to ask them to move very quickly. and chris, it's going to be up to us, it's going to be up to americans to say hey, this is important, don't drag your feet. it can move quickly if the courts decide to do it. >> it is a novel question. this has never been litigated. we only have the course of performance that we've never

seen, an exercise of this privilege by a former president. they always ask a sitting president. but this idea about the president has no precedent in the law. and that means even if it's four months, norm, that's a long time in this current climate, isn't it? >> well, if they can move that quickly, chris, that will be a modern day miracle. we should insist on it. but i think that, you know, when you look at the underlying arguments here, they don't have to cause the courts to delay. simply because donald trump is the first one to have the chutzpah to make some of these arguments doesn't mean it should slow things down. that's why we started with the urgent national imperative to get at the truth of the ongoing assault on our elections and on our democracy. so these -- the novelty of these questions does not have to be -- the mere fact, chris, that no former president has ever asserted separation of powers, that these kinds of arguments are being made, none has ever taken on a current president on the assertion of executive privilege. the courts can reject it, and they should, because they're not

good arguments. >> right, but i'm not talking about the conclusion. i'm talking about the timing. it seems just by doing this, hasn't he bought himself and his main guys who are subpoenaed until after the holidays at a minimum? >> not necessarily. what's going to happen now is, when i checked the docket, it was not in the docket. if he wants this to move quickly, he's going to have to seek a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction. he's going to have to ask the court to make a fast decision. he's going to bear a heavy burden in doing that, chris. he's going to have to show a strong likelihood of success on the merits. we've just -- >> that's a good point. >> -- the reasons that a former president can't do that. so he's got to meet that hurdle.

he'll have to meet it again. look, the supreme court, if it ends up there, they rejected his attempt to get a second bite at the apple in the mazars case about his financial documents, summarily. so things can move quickly. we need to treat it as an emergency. congress needs to ask the courts. it's incumbent on the courts to listen. and on all of us to say, hey, this is not business as usual, we want the rocket docket for the sake of our democracy. >> that's a good point. just very quickly, norm, who decides whether or not he needs a tro or a preliminary injunction in order to stop the subpoenas from being enforced? >> well, he's going to have to move for it. so in the first instance -- >> why would he? what if he says let's just litigate this in the ordinary course of time and not ask for anything like that?

>> then, as you quoted the archivist, if there's no binding court order, then this complaint does not take effect, and the documents can be turned over. so he's going to have to move if he wants to block it. we'll see -- he knows these are not good arguments. he knows this is a delay game. so we'll see if he tries to do that. >> he's going to have to move for this type of relief, and so he will be actually setting up an accelerated timeline because those things have to be handled very quickly and even the appeals are handled quickly. those are good points that i hadn't focused on and that makes me feel differently about the timing. norm eisen, as always, you are value added and a plus. thank you. >> thanks, chris. so maybe it won't be as good a delay tactic as it looks at the outset. we'll see, and we'll see sooner rather than later if norm is right. to our other top story. the great loss of a great statesman and a military hero. general colin powell. gone at age 84. powell warned the republican party about trump before he

chose to leave it, or maybe it left him. now he's left us, at a time when the country may need him most, and maybe in passing from this life, his life will be something that could pass on to the rest of us about what the message is and how he lived. you're about to hear what may have been the former secretary of state's final interview. and the reason that he matters now as much as ever, even because of house he died. i'll explain, next.it. ♪ liberty, liberty - liberty, liberty ♪ uh, i'll settle for something i can dance to. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ your new pharmacy is here. to make sure you don't run out of meds here. and with amazon prime, get refills

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that colin powell was a man in full. he was a public servant, a patriot, warrior, leader. american of the highest order. son of jamaican immigrants. again, a four-star general. purple heart recipient, statesman. shattered racial barriers. he was a minority who rose above the majority. first black national security adviser, under president reagan. then the first black chair of the joint chiefs of staff under the first president bush. then the first black secretary of state under the second president bush. also a two-time recipient of the presidential medal of freedom. there's a list of accomplishments, you can google it, it's fascinating. powell was only 84. gone too soon. but you know what, sometimes things happen when they do for a reason and i believe his death should establish him as a leader

once more, because powell's death is going to serve as a reminder of the risks that covid poses. powell was vaccinated. but he hadn't gotten his booster and he likely needed it, because as we're just learning now, colin powell was very sick. he had a bad form of cancer. he was also fighting parkinson's disease. so when he was exposed to covid, he just did not have enough protection. powell was adamant about being vaccinated, because he was at high risk. he was obviously immunocompromised. the vaccine may have bought him time. the booster, if he had been healthy enough to get it, may have bought him some more. but he was too sick to take it. his loss is a reminder of why we all need to get vaccinated, not

just to protect ourselves but the vulnerable like him. there are many who can't get vaccinated. but even people like the general, and there are so many in that generation, even when they're vaccinated, a vaccine is not perfect, and they are vulnerable. and if they're exposed to somebody, they can still get sick. powell was strong in the face of a challenge. medically and politically. i don't want to talk about him just as he died, but that matters too. he did something, you know, that we never see today. he admitted he was wrong for passing bad information and making the case to go to war in iraq. and that gave him accountability. it give him credibility. and that allowed him to call out others. and he did it, once again, very uncommonly, when no one was

doing it in his party. he condemned the cowards in his own party or what was his party for refusing to stand up after the big lie, january 6. cnn just got our hands on what may have been powell's final interview on july 12, with bob woodward, legendary journalist, for his book "peril." take a listen. >> we've just gotten rid of a president who was not reelect. he's refused to acknowledge he wasn't reelected. he has people who go along with him. now we had a congress who is ready to elect him or do something with it and make him a hero again. these guys all badmouthed him right after the riot, in the white house. but two weeks later, they were all back in his camp. >> what did you think of that riot? >> it was awful. he was going in there to

overturn the government. >> now, i last spoke with the general back in june of 2020. it was in the wake of trump's ugly response to the george floyd protest. and i just thought as a leader and, obviously, african-american, this would resonate. i called him to book him on the show. but in saying no, he invited me into a very long conversation about the nature of purpose, specifically making things better. as he explained to me, you know, exposing lies is good, but just exposing lies, scoring points, that doesn't fix division. do you want to fix the division? he was very worried that even the well-intentioned weren't helping. why? he explained to me that people don't change their mind when

they're simply told that they're wrong. even if the facts are clear. this is about feelings and politics. speaking truth, he told me, was only valuable as a change agent when it comes at the right times and in the right way. and while he wasn't sure about what that meant in that crisis after george floyd, he was sure that the dizzying pace of media and political narratives played more to stoking fires than putting them out. gotcha mode has got to go, he put it. so he took a pass on the show. but he gifted me with that truth. and so out of respect for that conversation, you know, it hit me when the general died. he's such a massive figure. my father, mario cuomo, was a huge fan of his. you can look online, what he said about powell. he said powell was perfect for either party but he wanted him to be a democrat. but i didn't really do with that conversation what i could have or should have. so i'm going to do it now. out of respect for general powell, what i just did was

report the truth of why he got vaccinated and why he really needed others around him to be vaccinated. because he, like so many, even though he is a giant and a warrior, was too sick for his body to protect itself, even with the vaccine. that is the truth. and nothing else about his situation is true but that when it comes to the vaccine. so if you respected powell, respect what the truth was about his life. because that will make something better. now, i have a guest with us now for perspective on powell's life. powell was a personal mentor to him. dr. jerome adams, trump's surgeon general when covid arrived in america. what does he make of the vaccine concerns that are being spun out of powell's death?

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i know what you're hearing. but the fact is, anybody who knows what they're talking about, who's trying to make things better, will tell you powell's death reinforces exactly why we need to get vaccinations, because there are a lot of people who need protection and they can't provide it themselves. people like general colin powell. fully vaccinated, but he had a bad form of cancer and an advanced case and he was battling parkinson's disease and he was 84 years old. he needed those around him to be able to give him protection, and they didn't. i'm not talking about his family, god forbid, or anything

like that. i'm just saying the data shows you the power of vaccines. you can't win on facts. that's why this is about feeling. and you have to ask yourself, why would people on the right, specifically at fox, will cain, john roberts, why suggest otherwise? john roberts deleted this tweet, and that should matter, by the way, and he's tried to walk it back, and that should matter too. but why would i even think about posting that the death raises questions? he knows the root of his concern is illegitimate. i'm not connecting him or will or the others to the big lie, i have no reason to do that, especially where john roberts is involved. the idea of saying, people have questions about the election, yeah, because you're telling them they should have questions, without basis. that's what happens here. this is raising questions. because the people in the prime time lineup who, once again, fox

never really tells you they're not part of the news division, right? it's entertainment. they're just allowing people to entertain you with things that are making you hate other people in this country. so tonight, they'll make mention of powell's age but nothing of him battling an advanced form of cancer and parkinson's disease. and that's not just intellectually dishonest. it's proof of somebody who doesn't want to make things better except for themselves and their fortunes. let's bring in former u.s. surgeon general dr. jerome adams. welcome back to "prime time." and i'm sorry for your loss. i'm sorry for the loss of your mentor. and i'm sure, as well as you knew him, you could imagine his reaction to people trying to spin the conditions of his demise as some kind of proof

about vaccines, you know, being something that should be -- that one should be skeptical about. you lost a mentor and a man that meant a lot to you. what do you want the audience to know about why powell was so special to you? >> thanks for having me on and allowing me to talk a little bit about general powell. i came from a military family. i grew up idolizing colin powell. i didn't care what party he was a part of. i just cared he was someone that looked like me, standing next to the president of the united states. even in the current administration, the most diverse ever, it's still rare, incredibly rare to see a black man, someone from a group that is more likely to be incarcerated than to be in medical school, being highlighted by the white house. and that's why representation matters. colin powell, he paved the way

for all black people, democrats, republicans, independents, to be able to be in these high profile positions like secretary of state, like chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, like surgeon general. and i think about that every single time someone asks me, why did you stay. i think about colin powell. i think about the fact that had he not stayed, and one of the things he and i often talked about, was how he was often ridiculed, often talked down to because he was part of a republican administration. when you're the first or the second to do something, there aren't many people you can go to for guidance. and i was blessed, i truly was blessed that general powell, at one of my lowest points when i was being attacked by all sides, reached out to me and he said -- he believed in tough medicine, he wasn't easy on me. he was a four-star general. he said to me, you know, public

service isn't easy, but it matters. he said, why are you doing this, are you doing this for the right reasons? he said, do you think you can accomplish more good by staying than by leaving? and you brought up one of the points that he drove home to me. he said, fear of making mistakes is a bigger leadership flaw than making mistakes for the right reason and then having the courage to own them. that's something that i really took with me, and i really tried to live throughout my tenure as surgeon general, thanks to general powell. >> well, his advice was good. but often it's easy to give advice and hard to follow it. he had followed his own advice. if anybody needs one thing to define why he was relevant politically, find me another man who was coveted as a presidential nominee by both parties. they both wanted him on their tickets to run for president of the united states. there's no one else you could say that about. >> exactly. >> in terms of his passing and how he would want it understood, what do you say about the idea that powell passing while being vaccinated is proof that the vaccination is not necessary? >> well, it's absolutely untrue.

and we've got people out there who are in the vaccine resistant crowd, we've got people who have completely different agendas, agendas that have nothing to do with vaccines, and as you mentioned, who want to divide us. but we've got a lot of people out there who are just thrown, who react to misinformation, they need the correct facts. for those of you out there in the moveable middle, i want you to know there have been 7,000 breakthrough deaths since people have been fully vaccinated starting in january of this year. that's compared to over 300,000 unvaccinated people who died in this country. 7,000 to 300,000. these vaccines work. of those breakthroughs, we know about 6,000 of them reported have been over the age of 65 as general powell was. we know a disproportionate number of them were peel with comorbidities as general powell has. he was someone primed for a breakthrough infection.

he got vaccinated, but it proves we can't just say we're only going to protect the vulnerable, we're only going to worry about those people getting vaccinated and everyone else doesn't matter. we all matter. and the fact is that general powell died because we didn't take the proper measures to lower spread in this country. we didn't do everything we could. there are some people out there who can do everything right but they're still going to be in jeopardy if we continue to let this virus run unabated. that's why herd immunity is so important. that's why we all need to get the facts and then please, please hear me, for the sake of general powell and everyone else out there who is vulnerable and who is doing the right thing, please consider getting your vaccine. >> dr. jerome adams, i'm sorry for your loss, but thank you for honoring the legacy and trying to make things better by telling the truth tonight on this show.

i appreciate you and i wish you well. >> thank you. and get your flu shot too, please, especially this year. flu shot, get your booster if you can, get your covid vax if you haven't. talk to someone you can trust. this isn't about politics. this is about us rallying around and making sure the virus doesn't win and about taking care of each other. >> it's about making something better, to quote the general. take care. a big day in the fight for justice. picking a jury for the ahmaud arbery case. a black man killed while jogging in georgia last year. the trial began today for the three white men accused of murdering him. now, ahmaud arbery's mother is here tonight along with the family attorney. they have concerns heading into this trial. why? hear for yourself, next.

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ahmaud arbery. it's a case we said none of us can let go, and we shouldn't. it's a horrible set of facts. jury selection began today for the three men charged with chasing him down, murdering him, while he was out for a jog in their neighborhood. gregory mcmichael, his son travis, and their neighbor william "roddy" bryan jr., are charged with malice and felony murder. they also face charges of aggravated assault, false imprisonment, and criminal intent to commit false imprisonment. remember, in a charging document you go from little to high in almost every jurisdiction. you don't have to just charge the top thing. you can charge all the crimes that go along with it.

you got together, you made a plan, you wanted to go after him, you wanted to stop him, you wanted to hurt him, you wanted to kill him, and then you killed him. all of those things can be charged. this story is as much what they did as what it took to get here. 603 days. that's how long ago this video was recorded by one of the defendants. imagine, for your family. you remember, his lawyer from one of the defendants who was on this show, didn't want him to say much. remember this? >> all right. mr. bryan, you are known as "roddy" to friends, correct? >> that's right. >> and in the police report, the mcmichaels referred to a roddy, i'm assuming that was you, yes? >> hey, hold on, chris. >> mr. bryan, how did you come to be in the car videotaping that day? >> okay, we're not going there.

>> you don't want to talk about that either? all right. let's do this. you are afraid of the facts of this case, counselor. why? >> sir, i'm not afraid of anything. >> yeah, he is. or was. he was afraid of winding up exactly where his client is right now. remember, you have the right to tell people not to speak. we all have a right against self-incrimination. you should think about whether you want to go on television if you don't want to answer any questions, because it looks like you have something to hide. and that's not a legal point. it's a point of perspective. it took prosecutors and state intentioned to get this case to trial. why?

because there were people who didn't want to do the right thing. i'm joined now by ahmaud's mother, wanda cooper jones, and their attorney lee merritt who is running for attorney general in texas. welcome back to both of you. >> thank you, chris. >> and what does it mean to you that this trial is finally beginning, about who killed your son? >> i'm very thankful. the case has come a very long way. i'm pleased in the direction that the case is going. i never thought that the day that we would pick jurors would come and the day has finally come. >> what should it mean about the 603 days, but why it took this long? >> well, it's a reflection of covid-19 and the delays in the courtroom in that way. but it's also where we are in our justice system. you know, i feel like if the

victim was different, if the victim was white, we would have had a much more speedy trial. we would see quicker justice. however, we're glad that we're here today. >> are you worried, wanda, that the jury will be fair? >> i have my concerns. like you said earlier, it took over 600 days to get to this day. but with that being said, because it's the same community that elected the d.a. into office, this is the same community that stood rallying for justice for ahmaud. so i do feel confident that we will have success in this. >> counselor, what does it mean to you that in looking at the laws in this part of the country where this case is going to be tried, that some of these statutes date back to the civil war? >> it's something that the glenn county community in south georgia had to grapple with over

the past year, that these archaic laws still existed on the books and that they make black people more vulnerable. i'm grateful again that the community stood up, finally passed a hate crime statute in georgia. and that was because of the work of so many community organizers and supporters that the community finally stood up and got rid of the citizen arrest statute. it still exists on the books but even on those terms, it will not prove helpful to the mcmichaels because they don't even meet the relatively low standards necessary to avail themselves of that. specifically, they are the initial aggressors. in the law it says if you're the initial aggressor, you can't claim self-defense. >> counselor, i appreciate and you thank you. ms. jones, ms. cooper jones, i'm

so sorry for your loss, i really a.m. i really am. i know this is not just a trial for you but this is your son. we will stay on the story, i promise you that. god bless the family and i wish you strength during this process. >> thank you. >> thank you, chris. >> be well. back to covid and the battle over mandates. more police have died from covid since the start of this pandemic than from gunfire. why is there pushback on vaccines in the law enforcement community? we're going to take you to a big city police veteran, next. >> tech: when you get a chip in your windshield... trust safelite. this couple was headed to the farmers market... when they got a chip. they drove to safelite for a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service the way you need it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ got directv stream.

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over the past two years, the leading cause of death for officers in this country was what? gunfire? no. it was covid. yet you have more and more officers and their unions resisting vaccine mandates. in chicago about 4,500 officers ignored a mandate to report their vaccine status last friday. if the mayor follows through with her threat, roughly 35% of the force could be placed on no pay. that's not going to lead anywhere good. massachusetts state police say they are down nearly 600 members.

in seattle it's 300 and climbing. while some washington state patrol officers are literally signing off. >> i wish i could say more but this is it. so stay 10-34. this is the last time i'll be in a state patrol car and jansley can kiss my ass. >> we say the same thing when we're dealing with medical workers. just because you work in a hospital or work in a community as a police officer, doesn't mean you're immune from politics. for some more insight on this, let's bring in former police sergeant cheryl dorsey. she's also the author of "the confidence chronicles." it's good to see you, sarge. >> good to see you, chris. >> help me understand. >> i think police officers by and large are bothered by the hypocrisy from command staff. they tell us to do one thing and then they do the complete

opposite. here in los angeles our police chief had a video for the troops telling everybody to go out, get the shot, wear your mask at all times even when you're off duty, and then you see him on a giant video screen at a dodgers game not wearing his mask. so i think if they want officers to comply with this alleged mandate they need to be better at the messaging. >> so it's an and, though, right? you say but you don't do. but there's got to be something else. is this just politics, you know, bleeding its way through policing that yeah, there are peace officers, policemen and women, but they're also citizens and they have their own politics. i just don't understand why people who take an oath to protect and serve don't see the protection and service involved in getting vaccinated. >> well, i think it's a compilation of things and so let's not pretend that there aren't, you know, police officers out there active duty

who bought into, believe the big lie. these are, you know, some of them trump supporters and by their own affiliation are questioning and not believing the science and the information be being disseminated about this. we saw law enforcement in the january 6th insurrection. a lot of that has to do with the way police officers are politically leaning. >> so what is the solution? if people don't like the idea you're being told you have to do this but you're only being told you have to do this because you wouldn't do it of your own volition, where does that lead us? >> i think we'll have to see whog blinks first. and listen, police officers have rights and due process and there's city charters and police officer bill of rights and memorandum of understanding. i mean, there's a plethora of things that would prevent a police department from just

willy-nilly firing somebody because they won't get vaccinated and to say there is a rash of resignations, i mean, that officer that we heard on the radio with that final fare thee well, if you will, had 22 years on the job. so he's a tenured officer. you're going to have early retirements is what's going to happen. and i don't think this is sustainable for police departments across these 18,000 to bring in alleged national guards to fill in the gap. >> wow. that's -- yeah. that has a lot of problems that go along with it. they're not trained as peace officers. you know that, sarge. so you're a mayor, what do you do? >> well, you need to sit down and have a real conversation and find out what the angst is that your patrol officers have, your police chief needs to have a better way of communicating what it is he needs and why, and you need to get compliance. you need to get compliance.

to think now that officers are being retaliated against and i imagine that blue flu is a thing. you understand that. when you start talking about not paying officers, when you start talking about pulling the elephant hunters out of patrol and putting them on the desk, you're going to have rebellion. how is it that police departments can pull an officer out of the field for not being vaccinated but an officer can rank up 20-plus personnel complaints, kill people at will over and over again and you don't get them out of patrol? i'm sure all of that is off-putting. >> priorities. maybe instead of saying no pay, maybe you get a bonus if you get the vaccine. we go back to the carrot and the stick. all right. i'm out of time. sergeant dorsey, thank you as always. be well. stay healthy. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back with the hand-off. >> you too. [suitcase closing] [gusts of wind] [ding] i'm not getting through the pandemic just to end up with the flu. i asked for fluzone high-dose quadrivalent.

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>> when you politicize someone's death, especially someone like colin powell, you say the saying jump the shark. you know you've jumped all humanity when you can't wait to politicize a death about something that you need in order to corrupt and exploit your viewers, lead them down the primrose path. i just found it to be disgusting. i cannot believe it happened. every day i'm even more surprised when that happens and you know exactly what i'm talking about. >> i knew that as soon as there was an opportunity, people would take the fact that -- >> two seconds after he died? >> absolutely. that he died -- because what do you value? if you only value advantage and not, to quote general powell, whether or not you're making things better, then of course you would. this was ripe for being -- >> shame on them. >> for being twisted. but there is no shame in their game. >> we're talking about the fox propaganda network.