let's go to chris. >> thank you. i am chris cuomo. welcome to "primetime." learn or lose. that's the proposition for democrats. question. why would speaker pelosi tell her caucus earlier she wanted votes on the build back better bill tonight and infrastructure tomorrow? why won't they learn the lesson? don't promise what you can't deliver. so far tonight, no votes scheduled as of this program. it may be worse if they do vote on build back better, because they know the senate is not ready to pass it because of their own party. the speaker chose to put four weeks of paid family and medical leave back in the $1.75 trillion plan after scrapping it to get senator manchin on board. he is still locked in the same position he has been

articulating for months and says that paid leave has to be in a different bill, not the reconciliation bill. why put it in? the democrats are acting like they are playing games with the out party. but this is their own party. why air this openly? to expose manchin as the problem. but who loses? the democrats do. because it's still democrat dysfunction, pushback over masks, mandates, bias, policing. these are all symptoms of this growing idea that government doesn't help, can't help, can't help but mess with people. this is the existential threat to democrats. perversely -- they're not in a good position. but they're not in a good position for a good reason.

hear me out. perv perversely, one political party is about feeding fears government cannot do anything. so it's on the democrats to show it can. that's the harder part of the equation. as my father used to say, may he rest in peace, any jackass can kick down a barn. it takes a good man or woman to build one. now, here is the problem for the democrats. they are fighting the good fight. that's not me saying so. they said so. that was their pledge. for months now, while promising that we will show you government can work to end the chaos, they have demonstrated the core of their pledge is a false premise. if government is not getting things done that help, it is only seen as that which hurts. senator manchin said that out

loud today. >> you want to know what's wrong with the place? i go to work in a hostile working environment every day. if you are a democrat and a republican is up for election, you are supposed to be against that person. these are people you are working with. you have an obligation and responsibility to get something done. >> i was tempted to say, joe manchin, who are you working with? you have this dream that the republicans will work with you. they have done nothing but oppose. they will do nothing but oppose. what about the infrastructure bill? that was in the making for a very long time on any of the things that the democrats want to own. they won't work with you. wake up. welcome to politics. that's what i was tempted to say. what is that? that's me feeling the fever, right, of this fatal istic notin about government. i'm tempted to say, that's how it works. hate them. they are your enemy. that's not the way it's supposed to work.

this isn't about the democrats not getting it. that's lazy. that's an easy media narrative. it's appetizing. but it's not accurate. they get it, proof. >> people want us to get things done. they want us to get things done. >> they get it. they are just not getting it done. if democrats want to get re-elected, they need to ask why they are not getting it done. the answer is the man and woman in the mirror. it's not just joe manchin. i will tell -- i'm not defending joe manchin. okay? just because he has italian blood doesn't mean we're on the same page. i only met the guy once or twice in my life in person. his positions have strengths and weaknesses, like the rest of them. but manchin has always been where he is on these policies. he said it in a letter. remember?

why would the democrats put out something that they knew they couldn't deliver within their own party? think about that. you are trying to prove that government can work and you are going to make a play that you know you can't even get done in house. let alone with the other side. who takes the blame? that's stupid. that's bad politics. it's bad leadership. it's bad governance. biden takes the brunt. why? because it's the president. it's his agenda. the buck should stop with him. here is my problem with that. joe manchin sent that letter to joe biden. no. who did he send that letter to? who signed it acknowledging that they knew where joe manchin was on all these things that since have come as a surprise? that wasn't joe biden. that was this man. >> dp democrats are closer than have ever been. we are going to keep working

until we get this done. >> you are working against yourselves. that's not what the people wanted. working sounds like you are doing the voters' business. you are not. you are fighting with your own. until we get this done. where have you been? chuck assume schumer is not a c shy guy. he may pick friendly venues. but that doesn't make him unusual. what makes him unusual is that he is not delivering as the leader of the senate. we hear more about mitch mcconnell within the democrat dealings than we do the democrat leader. chuck schumer couldn't get his own pick for mayor in his state, new york, the city, buffalo, he couldn't get her elected tuesday. he backed a socialist. he took that big step to the left. told people, this is the person. she won the primary. beat the incumbent. but then likely got beaten by the same incumbent in a write-in campaign.

a write-in? that's usually an other. right? who did you vote for? i wrote in. who? mickey mouse. when is the last time a write-in candidate won in a major race? against the candidate that the senate leader said to vote for. got trounced if the returns are right. doesn't look good for schumer or the democrats. you said, government can work. give us a chance. you haven't even gotten your own party together. you were weighed and measured and found lacking tuesday. with good reason. if you want to restore faith in government, and you should want that -- you are fighting the good fight. you are just not fighting it well. you have to show that you are better than the hate parade on the right.

otherwise, you are fuelling their fire. you are now proof of their case of government dysfunction. so far, the people believe you have failed. the good news is, for democrats, you still got time. these weren't the midterms. we are just treating it like they were. they weren't. you having time, so what, if you don't plan to change. that's why i started with the questions about pelosi's tactics. pass the infrastructure bill. get the win. see where that takes you. on the theory that now even when you pass all these goodies for people, the infrastructure and build back better bill, and be clear, i think a straight read on it is, you have much needed measures coming to more people than have been helped in a generation. but even when it passes, work is tainted.

democrats need to show government can fix the real problem now. this will be good for you. people won't forget how this happened. there's this notion on the left and with their buddies in the media, as long as we pass it, this process, nobody cares. yeah, they do. they care. you just saw on tuesday that they care. here is what you gotta do. you have to face the existential question, can we make government work? if you are going to prove it can, you have to do it on securing the signature expression of voice, voting. it may take a filibuster shift. i get the arguments on that. right now, this toxic two party system, there is no motivation for cooperation. for the democrats, but manchin, it's not good enough. but manchin keeps saying that. you will all be back home living in them, not in power.

yoda, do or do not, there is no try. working hard is expected. results are all that matter. the existential question is not whether or not democrats get the mood. it's whether or not they can make government work. i think it is an open question whether or not it can. let's take it to the better minds. former republican ohio governor john kasich, former republican strategist stewart steveness. thank you for being on the program. do you believe that in this system, with our two parties, toxic as it is, that government can work? governor kasich? >> absolutely it can work. government really -- usually needs to be a last resort, not a first resort, because of the bureaucracy corrected to it. i agreed with much of what you said. i have been saying for months

that they need to pass the infrastructure bill. forget build back better whatever it is. pass the infrastructure bill. take it to the house. if the progressives won't vote for it, then biden goes at the republicans and says, i need you. if they don't vote for it, he travels the country and makes his point nobody wants to cooperate. i'm going to force them to cooperate. on the build back better bill, manchin said it. i heard it -- i saw a scroll before i came on the show. break that big package up into things that people can understand. people do care about a child tax credit. they do care about family leave. break it up. don't shove it all through. figure out how you are going to pay for it. then also, end the group think inside the white house. you have to have people telling the truth. everybody can't tell him what he wants to hear. finally, what is his passion? what does he really feel strongly about? i can't figure out what it is right now, chris. they need to get an issue that can relate to all americans

beyond all this. i will give you one. i'm involved with it. so is your brother-in-law. the issue of mental health touches every american, for kids, for adults. you can rally around something like that. you can get this kind of thing done. >> look, on the last point, stewart, to bounce it over to you, it's way pastime. ev every family we know. if we don't believe that we are directly connected to or care deeply about someone who struggles with mental health the same way we see with physical health, it's the same, we call it different things because of stigma, we are lying. we are past due on it. the governor's quick rush to say yes, government can work, where is the confidence in that position come from when your party is resolutely against doing anything with the democrats? how can government work? are the democrats maybe fighting

the good fight but to no affect? they can't get it through their own side. >> my former party, for all the reasons we talked about. i think it's really important that democrats understand that this isn't a normal time. i think they are looking at this and thinking it's back when the governor was in congress and getting things done. you have a party -- you can't negotiate with a party ta doesn't believe you are a legally elected president. that's the reality here. to me, when people talk about three parties, there are three parties now. there's a party of no, which are republicans. then there's two parties inside the democratic party. which ultimately can be a strength and reflects more of the diversity in the country. but it's a great challenge. you have to come to grips between -- the biden wing and the bernie sanders wing. that battle is going to decide, i think, the future of major policy issues. they have to conduct this with the appreciation that what this is really about is preserving

democracy. if they lose the house -- it's not kevin mccasrthy who is leader. it's jim jordan. they will move into '24 and support donald trump. we are off to the races of ending democracy. act like that. act like democracy is at stake. i think that will change how you feel about whether or not it's $1.8 trillion or $1.6 trillion. 20 years from now, that's not going to be remembered. whether or not we lost democracy will. >> governor, last word to you quickly about whether or not you believe that the hill to die on is securing the democracy specifically the right to vote. >> i think it's very important. i think they have a reasonable bill there that joe manchin helped put together. they ought to try to move on that. frankly, chris, to me, the number one thing democrats should do is pass the infrastructure bill. republicans supported it in the senate. put it to them in the house.

force them, up or down, for it or against it. that's what i would do. either way, if you are the president of the united states, you will be a winner, whether you win that vote or whether you don't, you will be a winner. get it done. people want it. everybody in this country understands highways, bridges, airports. they want this fixed. that will show them that government can be capable of working. >> governor, stewart, appreciate you both. what is a leading progressive voice making of her party's struggles. let's turn to katie porter, as smart as they come. do we believe that the democrats know how to do better?

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look at the white house pushing back against this statement from virginia moderate abigail spanberger. she seemed to suggest biden's agenda is far bigger than what voters wanted and why they put him in office. quote, nobody elected him to be fdr. >> this is not too much. this is what needs to happen. it should have happened decades ago. it's been some time since we actually invested in our country and invested in the american public. >> you should have invested in dealing with your own party and figuring out what you could pass before you went out with the offer. that's what would have made sense. moderate democrats don't agree with what you just heard. that's why biden is still having to make calls tonight to get them on board, especially in the senate where the senate leader for the democrats, schumer, you know, when is the last time you

saw him talking about how he is getting it done? where do things stand? let's bring in a truly better mind. deputy chair of the progressive caucus, congresswoman katie porter. i know better than to go toe to toe with you. i'm bringing you on to explain things. tonight, i have the facts on my side. it's political malpractice to push out something when you don't even have it through your own ranks. your party -- not your caucus, but your party keeps making the same mistake. even pelosi trying to have a vote tonight on the build back better bill. why? when you know you are not going to get it through the senate. what's your party up to? >> look, we have a legislature and house and senate, one of us has to go first. in this case, at this point, it's clear that the house needs to act first. on the build back better act. we are all prepared to do that.

the negotiations and conversations, when i walked back from the capitol, were ongoing but wrapping up. i think we will vote to pass this bill tomorrow. >> which bill? >> the build back better act. and also we will pass the infrastructure bill tomorrow. i think we will pass them on the same day and send them -- the build back better will go to the senate. the infrastructure bill will head to the president's desk for signature. >> i'm a big fan of schoolhouse rock. i like understanding how a bill becomes a law. but this is your own party that you are doing this with. it makes perfect sense if you were playing against your opponents. but you are not. this is stuff that you are supposed to do in house, figure out, go to your leadership, get the votes and then worry about how to fight the other side. how can people believe that government can get things done with democrats, when democrats can't get things done with democrats? >> first, democrats have gotten things done this year.

unemployment rate is low. wage growth is up. gdp is growing. we have shots in arms. we delivered money to help people with coronavirus. we have taken action to rejoin the paris climate agreement. we have protected public lands. we have gotten things done already this year. there is no doubt we need to get these bills finished. we need to get them done. we need to see what the senate does with them. i think we are on a path to doing that. the end is coming very, very soon. literally, i think, within the next 24 hours. i am very, very ready, as i know the american people are, to get these bills passed. chris, people understand that debate and disagreement, whether it's within a party or between parties, is part of democracy. this is not the easiest form of government. this is a form of government that we are committed to, because we think it reaches the best results and gives the most opportunity for that debate that makes the best policy. that's exactly what we are trying to do tonight. >> representative, do you believe that the mandate

delivered to the democrats was the voters saying, we are okay if you can't agree on things within your own party? >> with regard to the election results that we saw this week, the american people had struggles that we are facing. high childcare costs. climate change. those were problems on monday. the election came on tuesday. those are still problems on wednesday. they are problems today. there's no doubt that the biggest problem we have in politics, in our country, is that americans have distrust of both democrats and republicans. they are constantly unsure who in washington they can count on to fight for them. i think it's incumbent on us -- i take this to heart every day to try to get up and show the american people that i'm putting their interests first. until one party or the other figures out how to convince the american people we will do that day in, day out, year in, year out, we will keep seeing these movements back and forth between democrats and republicans as we did in the last two elections.

>> when the democrats make the promise, we can make government work, and end the chaos, and you spend months fighting yourselves and having leadership not get it done, again, all due respect -- i have known nancy pelosi my entire life. i do not question her. this isn't about her. it's about chuck schumer in the senate. we shouldn't hear about joe manchin all the time. he is not the leader. when the president said, can you get this done, chuck schumer knew because of that letter that he is supposed to say, no, representative porter, i can't get joe manchin. let's not go forward on this. we have to figure it out another way in house. let's not go out $3.5 trillion. he sent me a letter. can't you blame him? >> look, i don't think we're going to advance any accomplishments for the american people with blame. i think we are going to advance accomplishments by coming to the table. >> it's how you learn a lesson.

it's how you learn why this has been stalled so long. that would be my point. back to you. >> look, it hasn't been stalled a long time. it's frustrating. we are frustrated. the reality is, we have the votes we have. chris, you know ait and i know it. we have 50 votes in the senate. we are not able to pass things through normal senate procedure. when someone says we ought to break this up into small bills and do them separately, what they are saying is we shouldn't pass these because we will not, sadly in this political environment, get republicans to come over and work on issues like childcare, work on issues like climate change, work on issues like prescription drug prices. we have to do this through reconciliation. that makes it a bigger, more -- if we take to take them on separately, we do not have the votes. >> i think you are right.

i think that you work hard. i think you work for the right reasons. that's why i appreciate you being on this show. there's no but. full stop, your party and the leadership better figure it out. this does not look like making government work to voters. you got lucky. that was a warning on tuesday. you have a year plus to figure it out. let's see what you do with the time. congresswoman porter, always a pleasure. appreciate you making the case. >> thank you so much. now, you know what's nice about when you win? nobody complains about the elections being rigged. you notice that? gop just happy with the votes. why? because they won. remember that. remember that it's deception. when they are upset, they are just trying to play to advantage. my god, that's a lot of speculation. how dare you? where is the proof? glad you asked. glad you asked.

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never seen video obtained exclusively by cnn. you watch and see how obvious and ugly the former president's intent is. started with lies about caravans of brown people coming for your women, taking your jobs and bringing drugs. and ended with a mob of red hats convinced to attack the government, trumpeted as the cause of all that concern. the proof of his purpose is in his people. you will see names,names, unath lawsuits who claims he was defamed by the trump campaign, prominent conservatives. the defendants are moving to dismiss the case that's pending. they did do depositions. you will hear how they play out

the objective, namely, feeding fears, not with facts. facts be damned. no proof of truth necessary. case in point. a conspiracy theory that has been played mostly for laughs. bizarre claim. made on national tv. two american companies were working with a dead venezuelan dictator. listen. >> we had a report that the heads of dominion and smartmatic, somewhere in the mid teens, 13, 14, whatever, went down to venezuela for a get to know meeting with maduro so they could demonstrate to maduro the kind of vote fixing they did for

chavez. >> barely say it, let alone believe it. fallen man. from america's mayor to trump stooge. a former federal prosecutor who says repeatedly, he couldn't be bothered to verify whether any of the claims he was making were backed up by facts. >> you say that heads of dominion and smartmatic? >> that's what i was told. before the press conference i was told about it. sometimes i go and look myself when stuff comes up. this time, i didn't have the time do it. it's not my job in a fast moving case to go out and investigate every piece of evidence that's given to me. otherwise, you will never write a story. you will never come to a conclusion. >> first of all, it wasn't a case. it was and is a con. rudy likely knew it. why would i say that? because the trump camp had a

memo debunking the claims of election fraud. yet, they didn't say a word. under oath, powell forced to admit that getting to the truth was never an objective. >> you had the ear of a number of conservative media outlets. why did you not ask to provide a statement correcting that the misstatement you had a recording? >> that didn't seem to be the material part of the inquiry. >> material part. the truth wasn't material? look, you will say, look, in politics, they all lie. that's not true. you could feel that way. i understand why you would. you don't have good reason to be cynical right now. just know, if you or anyone decides to put stock in trump's

sludge, you now know you are buying a bunch of lies. designed to destroy confidence in government. listen to the response to why the trumpets would ignore a report on the integrity of the election. >> i'm asking if the trump campaign read this and considered it? >> not to my knowledge. >> why would they not have read this? it comes from the u.s. government. >> object to form of foundation. >> rudy's justification for spreading sputum is that everybody does it. what we have here is a battle to the bottom. what does that mean for where we are all headed? for that we will turn to norm eisen, next. the perfect wave.

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committee says 20 new subpoenas are going out, quote, soon. this as lawyers for the former president appeared in court to try to keep documents about the capitol riot secret. let's discuss with norm eisen. what's the answer? >> the answer is, yes, it's already starting to uncover the truth. chris, it now will be up to the d.c. circuit to prove me right or wrong. >> you go through. you get the documents. you see trump was talking to people. there was some kind of knowledge. there was a semblance of suggestion that let's see what happens. he was too quiet for too long. then what? >> well, the thing had a happens next is that we see the devastating consequences of the

insurrection. and i think we're going to get these additional documents. and i think they're going to have some very explosive information in them. it's clear that the judge is going to open the door, chris. i think on appeal, it's going to move quicker than some fear. >> am i wrong to be cynical about the impact of the outcome, to see -- i see support for trump as people using him as a proxy for their animus against the system. he has never been an antidote. he has always been a virus, because people hate it. will that change? >> chris, i think we have already seen a national dawning as to what trump represents. as these facts come out, they will have impact.

that is why this litigation, the civil litigation you were talking about earlier on the show, this litigation over the committee's subpoenas, they're getting to the truth. people do pay attention to the truth. that truth inoculates against the virus of lies and hate that you are talking about. >> i'm with you. so much of the truth is about -- or people accepting it's true it's about who is telling them it. that's why i have hope for this. because it's about documents. you can't like or dislike documents. they say what they say. they mean what they say. hopefully, if you get paper, people will see it as a reasonable basis to make an informed opinion. norm, you are always part of an informed opinion. thank you for being on the show. >> thanks, chris. i'm off tomorrow night. the game is on. you can have a cnn special report, trumping democracy, an

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they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? you got it. ♪ liberty, liberty - liberty, liberty ♪ uh, i'll settle for something i can dance to. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ding, ding, ding, ding, up against the needle. why? this does not smell good what's going on with the green bay packers star quarterback aaron rodgers. he is not playing this sunday against the chiefs. covid protocols says the head coach. what does that mean? the nfl network and espn say the quarterback has tested positive for the virus. wish him well. hope he recovers quickly.

hope he is asymptomatic. they report he is not vaccinated. which makes this statement from the mvp in august all the more perplexing. >> are you vaccinated? what's your stance on vaccinations? >> yeah, i've been immunized. you know, there's a lot of conversation around it, around the league and a lot of guys who have made statements. and not made statements. owners who made statements. there's guys on the team that haven't been vaccinated. i think it's a personal decision. i'm not going to judge those guys. >> is he one of those guys? he said, i'm immunized. didn't say i'm vaccinated. could mean the same thing. could not mean the same thing. same aaron rodgers who was not seen observing protocols for unvaccinated players since

training camp opened in late july. here he is partying it up for halloween with some of his teammates. what's going on? is he vaccinated or not? why don't we know that answer? or why isn't it reaffirmed immediately? and if he isn't, what should the penalty be? bob kostas, what's your take, brother? >> well, he is not vaccinated. what happened, chris, was that at some point during training camp or just before, he petitioned the nfl to be listed as vaccinated. he apparently sought some sort of homeopathic remedy. the nfl rejected that petition. he's been unvaccinated the entire season. the proof of that is that unvaccinated players -- they comp prize 5% -- have to be tested every single day.

vaccinated players are tested once a week. there are also other obvious protocols involving unvaccinated players. they're not supposed to travel on team charters. they have to get their separately. they're not allowed to leave the rooms for any other reasons except team meetings and when they're on the road. they have to be separated by six feet in the locker room. they're supposed to wear masks at all times when at a team facility. so it would be obvious that the team had to know because they're testing him every day. >> if they're testing him every day. >> yeah. >> i mean, i think it's a really -- >> yeah, the supposition. >> it's a really honest question as to whether aaron rodgers has been allowed to do whatever the hell he wants to do because of who he is. if so, and this all gets blown up, what should the penalty be? >> well, both he be the team could be liable for penalties. there have been teams already that have been fined hundreds of

thousands of dollars sbrkts saints and raider lost low-round draft picks for failing to follow protocols as carefully as they should have followed them. when it comes to aaron himself, there are a lot of people in the media who cover the nfl on a daily basis who have labeled him a liar. if you want to be extremely kind you could say he was d disin disingenuous. he was comfortable with them believing he was vaccinated. the other thing is went people say it's a personal choice -- i don't want to be glib, but it's a personal choice to get a tattoo, whether you're going to have the sushi or pizza, but it's not a personal choice when it affects other people. not only their health for obvious reasons, but in the case of athletes on a team it affects your team and chance to win. an unvaccinated player, even if he's asymptomatic must be

quarantined for ten days. so the earliest he could return without having practiced or been any part of team meetings is the day before their next home game. so he could in fact miss two games. they're 7-1. they're vying not just for a playoff spot but perhaps number one seed, home field, bye and, all those things and he's put that in jeopardy. how is that solely a personal decision when you're not only a part of a team, you're the single most important component of a team. the quarterback in football is the single most important in all of team sports. that's obvious. >> here's what i want to see. i want to see aaron rodgers, assuming he's healthy enough, own it. say that you're not vaccinated. you can say why. say what you did. say what you didn't do. be straight. you're too important to the league for them to do anything that bad to you any way. but own it. because i'm telling you what's going to happen right now, bob. no matter what comes out about him it is going to be a

reenforcement for exactly every color of cynicism and suck we have about covid. people who are anti-vax are hesitant or against mandates or getting fueled into this thing of big brother, they're going to support him. even though it may be the case he's done everything wrong. on the other side, people are going to want to see him canceled. i don't think that's right, either. i want to hear him own it. that's what we need. that's what everybody needs -- the fans, society, someone to just own the truth. >> well new, no matter how anti-science, anti-facts, anti-common sense some of the anti-vaxxers are, people like coal beasley, in the nfl -- more focused on case of kyrie irving in the nba, all owned it.

aaron rodgers was disingenuous about it. his reputation -- one of the greatest players of all time, but his reputation is going to take a hit. he may get support, but on balance his reputation is going to be hurt. >> we'll see how he handles it. bob kostas, i'll tell you how you handled it. you're a pro. let's take a breather, come right back with the handoff. -prf going on inside. it's true, with diabetic retinopathy, excess sugar can damage blood vessels, causing vision loss or even blindness. so remember this: now is the time to get your eyes checked. eye care is important to your long-term diabetes management. see a path forward with actions and treatments that may help your eyes— and protect against vision loss. visit noweyesee.com and take control of your sight.

thank you for watching. it is now time for the big show, don lemon tonight, with its big star d. lemon. coming to you early because you deserve the time. >> i'm walking into the studio and looking at the monitor and see aaron rodgers tests positive for coronavirus, not vaccinated. >> what? >> yeah. >> what? >> yeah. >> why is he still working?

do you know how many people he comes into contact with? do you know how many people's lives he put in potential jeopardy of getting sick and beyond? why is he being allowed to -- nobody else can do that. i can't. i have to get vaccinated to come into this building. >> you know how manuch he matte to that team? >> everybody matters. >> not the same. not the same. >> i get what you're saying, but -- well, it matters if he gives covid to somebody else and they get sick and give it to their sick grandmother or the person who has some autoimmune deficiency. so why is aaron rodgers special? >> because he's aaron rogers and means millions and millions of dollars to that institution. >> no, that is you know what up. that should not happen. >> it just did. it's happening right now. in fact, they still haven't owned it. right now they are paying, i guarantee you, a