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this evening, an honor walk was held to pay tribute to one of the oxford school shooting victims, justin schilling. hundreds gathered outside the hospital to pay respects to schilling after he made the decision to donate his organs. the staff also lined the halls to clap for justin as his body was wheeled to the operating suite. his family released a statement today expressing their grief and saying, in death he continues to give of himself as an organ donor. our week wednesday ends on that note. but the news continues with don lemon tonight. there is big news here on friday night. this is "don lemon tonight."

the breaking news, fugitives. where are the parents of the michigan school shooting suspect? where are they? james and jennifer crumbley didn't show up. officials say they're on the run tonight. the oakland county sheriff's office putting out a be on the lookout or bolo alert, releasing images. there they are on your screen, wanted, images of james and jennifer crumbley and there is a photo and a license plate number of the vehicle they may be driving. a black 2021 kia suv. the michigan plate number is dqg 5203. dqg 5203. they were last seen publicly apparently in the vehicle making a brief virtual appearance at

their son's wednesday arraignment. law enforcement officials with drew $14,000 in michigan just today and their cell phones are turned off so they can't trace the cell phones. we're learning tonight jennifer crumbley took her soon ethan to a shooting range the weekend before the shooting. that source says that prosecutors were worried about the crumbleys evading law enforcement because they didn't have ties to the community and officials had trouble locating them once their son was being arraigned. two attorneys working with them say the couple left town on the night of the shooting, quote, for their own safety and that they're not fleeing. but where are they? why has no one heard from them? so that doesn't explain why they didn't show up for their arraignment. prosecutor karen mcdonald laying it out absolutely in chilling detail the red flags tuesday morning just hours before the shooting started. hear it for yourself right now. >> on november 30th, '21. the

morning of the shooting, the next day, ethan crumbley's teacher came upon a sight that alarmed her she took a picture. the note contained the following. the drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointed at the the words, quote, the thoughts won't stop, help me, end quote. and then a drawing of a bullet with the following words, quote, blood everywhere, end quote. between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding. below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. further down of the drawing are the words, my life is useless and to the right of that are the words, quote, the world is dead, end quote. as a result, james and jennifer crumbley were immediately assembled to the school and a school counselor came to the classroom and removed the shooter and brought him to the office with his backpack. counselor obtained the drawing but the shooter had already altered it.

the drawings of the gun and the bloody figure were scratched out along with the words, help me, and my life is useless. the world is dead, and blood everywhere. those were all altered by him. at the meeting james and jennifer crumbley were shown the drawing and were advised that they were required to get their son into counseling within 48 hours. both james and jennifer crumbley failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located, and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him. james and jennifer crumbley resisted the idea of their son leaving the school at that time. instead they left without their son. he was returned to the classroom. >> let's remember the victims in this shooting. 17-year-old madisyn baldwin, 16-year-old tate myre,

14-year-old hanna st. julia, and 17-year-old justin shilling remembered at a candlelight vigil in downtown oxford just tonight. i'm going to get the latest from the sheriff, michael bouchard. he joins us live. appreciate you joining us on cnn. give us the latest. where are the crumbleys? >> well, we have our fugitive team out and we are working in congestion with the united states marshals and the fbi, both regular and great partners any time we're looking for people that don't want to be found and so that's the process right now. as soon as we were told that the prosecutor had issued charges, we put our folks into motion. >> now, you -- the prosecutor says, and i saw you had a press conference last night or yesterday sometime with the prosecutor and she alluded to charges and she said there would be charges. you said there were eyes on the crumbleys. what happened, sheriff?

>> no, i never said there were eyes on the crumbleys. what she said last night was she would make a charging decision. i didn't learn of any charges until this morning when a media outlet called and said that she had announced a press conference and then i called my commanders and the officer in charge of the investigation and i said apparently there is going to be a press conference and charges today. we better get our folks out and try to find these two before she announces charges because as we know, when charges are announced or somebody is ordered into custody in a courtroom, if we're not there, there may be a gap in taking them into custody. this is honestly the first time i've been sheriff 21 years where charges have been announced before we had somebody in custody and we didn't learn of the actual charges until the media called us. >> listen, you said you weren't

notified of charges with the media, but should your office have been ready for that since the prosecutor had been talking about it openly? that was one of the first things that people asked about. and she was even asked about it, will the parents face charges? >> we were absolutely ready. we anticipateed we would get heads up and activated the team to start looking for somebody if charges were imminent or were anticipated but the last thing we had heard was, she would make a charging decision. that's very different than, hey, you guys should start looking for them. probably tomorrow, i'll issue a warrant. >> no red flags to you when they had trouble showing up for their son's arraignment? they had no ties to the community. that's not a red flag? >> they have ties to the community. they lived here for years. >> they were in a car for it.

>> yeah, but the arraignment was via zoom so, you know, the fact of where they were sitting for -- to watch an arraignment wasn't a flag by itself and understand, too, that at that point there were no charging decisions, let alone the fact that might be a serious charge, maybe a negligence or misdemeanor. the first we heard of felony charges is when we heard it from the media. that's something that never has happened in 21 years. >> listen, i understand that as a layperson, though, one would think, i think most people would think you have some eyes on them or some sort of surveillance or you would know their whereabouts as the sheriff. but let me move on. >> yeah, but let me answer that. let me answer that. so if we're going to set up a surveillance crew, it's not like tv where one person goes out and sits in their rearview mirror. that's not how it works in the real world. a surveillance team is quite a few people that work around the clock. those people are working the actual homicide. so i would have had to have

pulled them off of investigating the deaths at the school to put them on a surveillance of somebody she says she might charge. >> i understand. >> she said is going to charge them -- >> that's why i'm asking you because i said as a layperson, sheriff, that one would think that. but also, i remember sitting in this very seat reporting that there was a search warrant on the house and the house was part of the investigation and one would think if the house is part of the investigation and the family lives at the house that someone would be there checking on the house or surveilling the house. it just seems like common sense. >> well, we did the search warrant and everything of evidentiary value was seized and the house was released. there is a tally sheet created. there was nothing left in the home to be seized. there is no reason to surveil it and again, every time you put somebody somewhere to watch an empty house, you're taking them off the investigation. we have to interview thousands of people that were in and around the school.

we have to go through hundreds and thousands of hours of digital evidence for us to sit on the if come, she may issue charges, is not something we have the luxury to do when we're running all these different things to ground. had we simply been told charges are coming, so get ready, a simple phone call. that's the way we've operated for 21 years since i've been sheriff, and 44 years since my undersheriff has been there. >> okay, so, let's try to find the folks. because something happened. there was some miscommunication. >> let me be clear. let me be clear. we're going to find them. one way or another we're going to find them. it's frustrating that we have to pull sources off the investigation to do this rather than just be ready to find them. >> you have the marshals and the

fbi helping you, as well. >> absolutely. i have a full-time fugitive team that we've pulled off the investigation and sent after them. >> you have a fugitive team -- aren't that they -- isn't it their job to find -- >> they are special trained investigators working the homicide but their super skills if you will are to find people that don't want to be found. >> let's -- again, so you said you believe they will be found. they may be driving, i'll put it up here, a black 2021 kia celtus suv. do you have any leads? >> not at this point, no. >> so again, they appeared at this video during their son's arraignment by zoom or by video, and it looked like they were in a car. look, the monitor is really small here. i don't know if that's a seat belt or whatever. i don't have the giant tv that you guys have at home. no, it's a scarf or a mask. okay. i got it.

anyway, it looks like they're in a car. you said there was no red flag to you because this was by zoom, right? >> right. the whole arraignment was by zoom so where they were sitting frankly wasn't something that we were necessarily watching especially given the prosecutor at that point only said she would consider charges against the parents, at that point, when the arraignment occurred and fast forward when she said she would be making a charging decision, those are all words that aren't i'm going to bring charges. you are our partners, you should go look for them in advance. there has never been a time in my career or the undersheriff, who has 44 years there, where charges have been announced at a press conference when the person is not in custody. ever. >> look, the reason i'm asking you this is because every person i think in this country especially those not in law

enforcement and are not close to the investigation are going, what? the parents are gone? how did they get away? four people are dead. many more are injured. i don't understand this. this is the reason i'm being tough on you with these questions because i don't understand, whatever the prosecutor said or not, i just don't see how a case this big and this important all of a sudden the parents are missing when the dad as you told me on this program and as you said in your press conference, bought the gun four days before, and we had all these questions about what was the parents' involvement? is there come culpability from the parents? it's just -- i am flummoxed and i'll sure people are, as well. so why do you think that the parents would do what they did and then run off, take out

$4,000 from the bank and then off in their car if they don't feel that they did something wrong in this case? >> well, i'm not sure who reported the $4,000 on your network, it didn't come from us. but that aside, it's kind of like if you're the quarterback and let's call a prosecutor the quarterback for the moment and you just throw the football down in the end zone without telling the receiver we're to go or that it's coming, we did not know these charges were coming. wait. >> i understand. we're trying to solve this for the victims. i'm just asking questions -- >> don't tell me you're solving this for the victims because i live here and we breathe this. >> i understand. i just don't want to continue to litigate who is responsible. there is time for that, but -- >> i'm not litigating it at all. all i'm saying is process and procedure always is inform the law enforcement before discussions of warrants being issued ever happen in the public -- >> i understand that.

i think you've made that perfectly clear. that's why i said we want to solve this and to find the -- >> i agree. and we will find them. >> okay. so the $4,000, again -- >> the fact we were not told that, you need to understand, the attorney for the two parents put out a press release saying she had had conversations with the prosecutor, there were conversations going on about potential charges without the lead police investigating agency being aware. communication, whether it happens to be the school or the prosecutors and police has to be regular and constant and that's what makes it work. >> okay. sheriff, thank you for that. so listen, you had no idea, you never heard anything about this $4,000, right? that's what your saying? >> correct. >> okay.

sheriff, thank you. i appreciate you joining us and best of luck finding them, again, i really appreciate you joining us and we'll get to the bottom of who is responsible and all of that but i hope you find them. >> we'll catch them. that will be in the past and they will be held accountable. >> thank you, sheriff. appreciate it. joining me now, oakland county prosecutor karen mcdonald, prosecutor mcdonald, thank you for joining us. you heard what the sheriff said there. what is your response? >> my response is, this is so unfortunate because a community is suffering and their grief is immense and we're focused on the wrong thing. here is what i know. the day after the shooting i sat down with two extraordinary detectives from the sheriff's office, detectives joe bryant and tim willis and they said to me, we'll do whatever we can, this is the most important career of our lives. i've been sitting down with

those detectives and my team. i haven't discussed this case or the details with sheriff bouchard at all because he wasn't really involved. i will say that we let them know all along what our motive and what our desire was and they presented us evidence with regard to these parents, that was the sheriff's department that brought that to us and we decided we couldn't just charge that shooter. i know, don, you've seen the horrible facts here. we have parents who not -- they weren't just negligent, they bought a weapon for their son. they gave him free access to it, and they had every reason to believe that he was dangerous. and, you know, i don't know if you had a chance to look at or see the text messages that mom sent her son the day before he

said -- she said, lol, next time but don't get caught. >> jennifer crumbley sent it to ethan crumbley. i have to ask you, though, should they have been arrested before you gave the press conference? >> the -- our team and, actually, i was in the room, was in constant communication with the detectives who were actually working the case. and from the moment they -- we all knew this was inevitable and i think you'll agree, it was the worst-kept secret. i said everywhere that this was happening, we said, do you have eyes on them? and there was indication that they had some pretty good ideas where they were and we got updates about where a cell phone was pinging.

so we don't brief people, defense attorneys, about when and where something is going to happen. i didn't have a conversation. there was an unreturned text message. with a case like this these things are happening almost in realtime and the detectives that were actually working the case that has dedicated the entire week, i doubt they slept at all, they were in constant communication with us and i've mentioned their names and they should be complimented. >> did you check with the -- did you check with law enforcement or anyone to make sure that the parents were in custody before you announced charges or that they had -- they knew where the parents were, or could get to them before you announced charges? >> as of -- yes. there is a fugitive apprehension team and my lead prosecutor was in communication with them and

they thought they had a pretty good idea of where they were. that really wasn't on anyone's radar that this was even of a concern. the fact that they had some indication about where they were coupled with the fact that the defense attorney reached out to the detective directly. these are the people working the case and working really hard. it's unfortunate we are talking about this. she did say they would turn themselves in. this is excellent law enforcement and i believe they will be apprehended. what i really think is unfortunate here is that we're on national television right now talking about who is to blame. i don't care who is to blame. you know what i want? i want some peace for this community. these people are in terrible, terrible pain and i'm not -- i just -- look, don, i just don't want to spend any more time talking about somebody's 40-some years and who did this and that. i know because i'm in the room because that's just the kind of

person i am and the kind of prosecutor i am, ask anybody. i have been in the weeds on this case, slept very little. i have a sister in iowa who told me, watched me on tv tonight and said i need to get sleep, which is true. and i'm invested in this and what i really care about is these victims. we have four children who were murdered. we have seven more that were injured by gunshot and we have hundreds of other children that were in the halls and ran for their lives, under desks, out the door, texting their parents, i love you. i don't know if i'll ever see you again. these are real victims and i'm sorry, i'm just not going to spend one more minute trying to be engaged in this -- >> i agree, that's why i tried to move the sheriff forward and i want to move you forward. everything you said for the victims and parents, they deserve answers as well, and deserve to know why people who

may have culpability in this shooting and these deaths cannot be found at this moment. that's -- i'm just trying to get answers. so -- and again, this is unprecedented. tell me about the charges here, so, for these parents. these are unprecedented charges. >> they are. i didn't really consider whether or not it had never been done before. what i did consider are two things. in a charge where we're charging first-degree murder and assault with intent to murder on the victims that were injured and killed, we also needed to add a charge that reflected a whole group of kids that were victims, as well, and who can't eat and can't sleep and let's just be honest, their lives will never be the same. and then let's also think about the over 100 schools in michigan have been cancelled due to fears and threats. and then in addition, i

understand, i was told, that this is a rare event to charge parents, and let me be clear. i am not saying that every criminal act on the part of someone's son or daughter should result in criminal charges against parents. i have such compassion for people who have children who are going through a rough time. my husband and i have five children together. we've raised five teenagers. the youngest is 20. we're almost at the end. and we've seen a lot. i have tremendous compassion for that. but these two parents, i mean, the fact that when they found out that an active shooter was at the school, they didn't do what the rest of us would have done. they didn't call their child. they didn't run to the school and say, are you okay? dad went to the home and said -- and wanted to know where that weapon was because he thought his son had it. and when he realized that he did have it, he called 911 and said,

i think my son might be the shooter. mom -- >> can i ask you something? >> i'm sorry. >> if you don't mind me interrupting. so the parents, the attorney for the parents, the attorney is saying that the parents left their home or went to some other location for their safety, and that he is -- he or she, whomever the attorney is, they are working with the parents to try to have them turn themselves in or to come to some sort of conclusion here. you are saying and the sheriff are both saying that the parents are on the run. do you have -- have you had any communication with the attorney? do you -- are they talking anything -- >> i have one -- >> -- where they are and where they might be and trying to make some sort of arrangements to have them turn themselves in? >> i have one unreturned text message from the attorney. i know this attorney.

i don't know what she's saying. here is what i know. there is no person who has any -- who is keeping any -- up with any kind of news that doesn't know that as of 11:45 when the deputy, when the detectives swore to this warrant in court that they were charged. and if they wanted to turn themselves in, it's now, i think it's 10:00 and we -- this has been going on for ten hours so i think that just speaks for itself and i'm not surprised by that given what i -- what the evidence is. people -- there are a lot of things that were going on and they weren't apprehended at the time and again, i know that they will be but i think the discussion really has to be about this tragedy and it's

disrespectful to victims to engage in a back and forth that has no bearing on what is really important, what's really important is that we hold people accountable for not being responsible gun owners, for allowing that gun to be in the hands of somebody they knew would injure or harm or kill and that's what we're going to do. >> well, thank you for that. listen, i agree on that and i also agree that the folks who are victims in this, they deserve some answers, as well deserve some answers, as well. and they want to know i'm sure where these parents and how can they not be in custody right now. thank you, prosecutor. appreciate you joining us. thank you so much. have a good one. >> thank you. so we've got a lot more news to come on the breaking story that we have. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back.eroni flatbread is a mouthwatering explosion of yes. craft? yes! heartiness? yes! living life to the flavor-fullest? heck yes. panera. live your yes.

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about a half-hour from oxford. what are the fbi, u.s. marshals, and police doing right now to track them down? >> well, they've entered them into the national crime information system that every police officer in the country will have. everyone is looking for them. they try to cross the border. there's probably an interpol red notice already. it's probably close to the canadian border. the media has done a good job of getting information out there and getting their pictures out there. they're not going to go far. i think it was a huge miscommunication between the prosecutor and sheriff's office. i was a prosecutor before i was in the fbi and i have to say, they both dropped the ball in this case. the detectives should have been on top of this and the prosecutor should have been communicating better and the parents got away but they're not going to go far. >> elliott, two attorneys working with the crumbleys say

the parents did not flee but left town for their own safety but they would show up for the arraignment, one would think. i mean, that was supposed to happen at 4:00 p.m. it's after 10:00 p.m. if that claim was true, why did they withdraw allegedly $4,000? >> it defies common sense that they're not fleeing right now. i wouldn't focus too much on their -- the fact tht they appeared on the phone sitting in their car because the world exists on phones and zoom. arraignments, court hearings happen on zoom all the time. so i wouldn't be too alarmed by that. the other circumstances are troubling and quite frankly and to back up everything chris said, we had every reason to believe these individuals might have been flight risk, certainly the sheriff has indicated they were being investigated and were

central players, frankly, to this crime. there was a lot of finger pointing. they both had a point. things could have been done a little bit better and to push back on the point that, if your quarterback threw the ball down the field and didn't tell anybody, the quarterback would have made a mistake, yes, but you're teammates go in the locker room and fix it but don't litigate it on espn or "don lemon show" whatever you want to call it and don't fight publicly. and the idea of prosecutors and investigators having tension over how to run a case is nothing new. it's not a new kind of dispute but what this kind of sniping that we saw beautifully laid out with your interviewing here didn't help anybody. >> i felt i had to be hard on both of them. the people involved in this deserve answers and if my loved one was someone who had been injured or killed by this young

man and the parents had some culpability, i would want to know why the parents are missing and are fugitives at this hour. that's who i'm asking the questions for. not for the people sitting at home, keyboard, you know, whatever you want to call it. >> absolutely and getting in the weeds of, well, this is how press conferences are scheduled -- >> doesn't matter. >> it's nonsense and doesn't matter and it was a failure to the community. >> a law enforcement source says their cell phones are off. what challenges does that present with tracking them down? >> yeah, cell phones in this day and age are an easy way to pinpoint locations. they're savvy enough. they're not that sophisticated but with the cell phones off, that's an indication to me they don't want to be found, that they don't necessarily intend to turn themselves in. the atm transactions, you can

track those. $4,000 is a lot of atm visits. you know, usually as we all know, they're capped at a certain amount. so that's multiple visits, probably multiple atms to track that. cars have gps in them these days, the lojack or current modern equivalent. you can track cars. there are a lot of ways to find these people. the next set of answers needs to come from school administrators, as to why they didn't intervene because there was a huge opportunity that was missed and i wonder if the prosecutor ought to be looking at them, as well. >> yeah, i was trying to get the specifics on the $4,000, if it was from an atm or withdrew because if they withdrew they could have gone inside of a bank. but they're on the lam and they shouldn't be. law enforcement should know where they are right now. they should be in custody. thank you, gentlemen, appreciate it. we have more ahead on the manhunt for the parents of the michigan school shooting suspect and we've also got a big

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>> early data and mutation data say this may well be more transmissible than delta. this will take time to sort out. >> let's discuss now with cnn medical analyst dr. jonathan reiner, thanks for joining us. it's not just cases. hospitalizations are also up. the delta variant is dominant now. but more omicron cases are cropping up. the cdc director is sounding the alarm. there is a lot we don't know, but are you worried by what you're seeing at this moment? >> well, i'm worried about delta and i'm worried about the 17% of american adults that have been vaccinated in the united states, the 45 million people that will get infected if they don't get vaccinated. there is a lot we don't know about omicron. it looks like a very

transmissible virus, whether it's more transmissible than delta, we'll have to see. whether it has the capacity to out compete delta in the united states, we have to see. it's certainly the dominant strain now in south africa but there was very little delta in south africa when omicron started to infect citizens there. and we don't know how virulent it is. the early indications are that this might be a relatively mild infection in people who are vaccinated and particularly those who are boosted. we think that prior infection is not nearly sufficient to protect people from omicron but we're literally learning minute to minute, day by day. >> so much of this virus has been politicized, doctor, among unvaccinated people. nearly 80% disapprove of biden's

handling of the pandemic. our ability to get this under control is a huge part because of people refusing to get vaccinated. so what do you say to the vaccine hesitant out there at this moment? >> vaccines are wildly popular in the united states. 83% of adults in this country have been vaccinated. i can't think of another issue in this country that has 83% approval of the entire adult population. so the 17%, the 45 million adults who refuse to get vaccinated are literally the tail wagging dog right now. and i've been a very strong proponent of ratcheting up the incentive for folks to get vaccinated, and i think what the administration missed a big opportunity this week to tell the american people that we're going to mandate vaccination for air travel in the united states. we require vaccination for people traveling into the united states so why aren't we mandating vaccination for people

traveling within the united states? i think we know that mandates work and if the unvaccinated in this country start to understand that -- no one can force them to get vaccinated but they can be prevented from flying in this country. if they don't, i think we'll see many, many people opt to get the shot. >> dr. reiner, thank you so much. appreciate you joining us. >> my pleasure, don. threats against fellow members of congress, rejecting the science of vaccines, fueling the culture wars. the gop amping up the political divide and president biden seems powerless to stop it. guess who is here? historian jon meacham. i'll talk about it with him next. at fidelity, your dedicated advisor will work with you

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so president biden won the white house on a message of

uniting the country. but look at where we are right now. a conservative majority supreme court is on the verge of overturning nearly 50 years of settled law on abortion rights. and the ongoing politicization of covid is hampering efforts to combat a winter surge. so what is happening in america? that's a good question to discuss with presidential historian jon meacham and the writer and narrator of "it was said podcast." jon, good to see you. thanks for joining us. >> thanks. >> when we asked you for your thoughts on the week, you told us that the power of voting was on display. elaborate on that for me, sir, please. >> think about it. everything we're seeing this week goes back to the people we elect to office and then the ways we the people incentivize them once they're in power. so i think there's kind of a running theme here.

one is we saw the supreme court arguments. president trump got three appointments because he was president trump and that -- if you need any other example of why presidential elections matter and senate elections matter, there it is. and we can argue all you want about mitch mcconnell and legitimacy and rules of the senate. but the fact remains that if hillary clinton had been president you would not have had those arguments that you heard this week. and so that's a primary point there. the terrible shootings, the -- which are all too common. you know, look, i'm a southerner. i own guns. the safest place to be a duck is to be somewhere near me when i have a gun. but absolutely without question sensible gun laws, which should be passed if the right people

are elected, are essential because the argument that somehow oh, well, you know, you can't stop every shooting, that's a crazy argument. the point is you were just saying something like this, the point is what if you stop one? what if you save a single life? isn't that a moral obligation we have to protect the people of this country? that's a right to life. that's an essential right. that's a jeffersonian innate understanding of of america. and i think the president -- look, and what i would say to folks, i suspect there are some millions of people who are somehow frustrated by the president right now who are telling pollsters they don't approve of what he's doing. okay. but you have -- politics is a comparative choice. right? it's about -- it's not just

about is this person good, it's about is this person better? lincoln once said the question is not can we imagine better, it's can we do better? and so in many ways i think that we need in this depth of crisis, a crisis of trust, a crisis of the efficacy of government, i think it's inherent, i think it's a burden on a lot of folks to say you know what? presidents get two or three big things right and if they get two or three big things right, history honors them and i think we have to, i believe, give president biden a bit more latitude here. now, i would say that. as you point out i'm his friend. i try to help hum. but i believe that historically and i believe that in my soul, really. >> listen, the economy, jobs, education, it all comes down to getting the pandemic under control. that's what people really

care -- we talk about a lot of things but the economy is always number one. many republican politicians are showing they're willing to put their own supporters and the health of the body politic at risk by encouraging them to reject life-saving vaccines. have we seen anything like this before, jon? >> no, i mean, i think what you're seeing there is the triumph of a will to power. it's about appealing to a base of folks for a variety of reasons are alienated from i think science, reason, argument. and what you have to do then, and again, we don't have to get 90% of people to agree on something but we do need to get back to where we're at least a 52-48 country. 40% of the country is always largely unreachable. right? and that's what history tells us. but there are, and there are

probably folks who watch you on occasion, there are reachable people. and what we have to do is make the case that this is not just about the health of the public, it's about your health. and democracy is run -- you and i have talked about this before. democracy is run on a sense of seeing each other not as adversaries but as neighbors. not that we have to love each other and cut each other's lawns but we do have to help each other when you're in trouble because it's in self-interest. if you help somebody else, they're much more likely to help you when you need it. i think that kind of conversation, that kind of ethos can be the fuel of a democracy that works. if we don't find that, then this experiment 2 1/2 centuries, which is counterintuitive, right? democracy is a counterintuitive thing.

the natural impulse of world history is to go to an authoritarian strong man, let them, you know, demonize the other and fight your enemies for you, enemies real and imagined. that's the way the world usually works. america was built on this idea founded on this idea that we have these innate rights, that in fact we can use our minds as well as simply react from our guts. right now there's too much gut and there's not enough mind. >> i hope some folks were listening to you, and i hope we get back to what you were saying. jon meacham, always a pleasure. thank you, sir. >> thanks, don. >> our breaking news, the manhunt on the way for the parent of the suspect in the michigan high school shooting. we've got a live report from the ground, next.