cases, may be true. but they, at times, see the benefit of their work being amplified to a population of more than 1.4 billion people. >> david culver from beijing, thanks so much. appreciate it. news continues. want to turn it over to don and "don lemon tonight." >> thank you very much. this is "don lemon tonight." just imagine what they know. just imagine what they know. two more witnesses speaking to the january 6th committee just today. the leader of the oath keepers, who was in jail, by the way, in oklahoma ahead of his trial on charges of seditious conspiracy, appearing remotely for several hours. his attorney says that he is answering many questions, and taking the fifth on others. and then, there is trump doj official, jeffrey clark, who pushed the justice department to pursue the former president's big lie of bogus-voter fraud. he is -- for hours, a move that comes straight out of the trump playbook, and was held in contempt, by the way, for refusing to cooperate with the committee, before finally showing up today and leaving after less than two hours.

wonder how many times you can say i plead the giffifth in und two hours. and national archives preparing to turn over records from the former vice president mike pence. the first records to come from his office. that, as top-pence aides have been talking to investigators. so with all of this, it is no surprise that the disgraced-former president is doubling down on the wild claims that he pardoned january 6th rioters -- he would do that even though he didn't do it while he was actually in office because his legal advisers talked him out of it. now, he is feuding with lindsey graham. who called his pardon talk inappropriate. >> i don't want to send any signal that it was okay to defile our capitol. there are other groups with causes that may want to go down the path if these people get pardoned. i think it's inappropriate. i don't want to reinforce that defiling the capitol was okay. i don't want to do anything that would make this more likely in the future.

>> the disgraced-former president, lobbying what may be his favorite insult, rino. >> lindsey graham's wrong. i mean, lindsey is a nice guy but he is a rino. these people are being treeted horribly. i would absolutely. yeah, i would absolutely give them a pardon. >> the punishments are out -- >> what they have done to them, compared to what they've done to the other side, you know, you have to have equal justice and this isn't equal. so, i would absolutely be prepared and lindsey graham doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. >> lindsey graham defending his comment, saying quote all americans are entitled to have a speedy trial and their day in court. but those who actively engage in violence for whatever political cause may be held accountable and not be forgiven. it is all part of the same old playbook, really. intimidating, threatening, dangling pardons. the stalled witness in the ukraine impeachment saga. the former-first -- the

former-president's first impeachment is soon trump allies, including rudy giuliani and don jr., alleging that they conspired to intimidate and retaliate against him because he was willing to testify against the then president. remember this dramatic moment? this is from the impeachment hearing when the now-retired army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman said this. >> i am sitting here today in the u.s. capitol talking to our elected professionals, talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the soviet union, and come here to the united states of america in search of a better life for our family. do not worry. i will be fine for telling the truth. >> that man told the truth, and the then president fired him from the national security council. like i said, right out of the trump playbook. well, the republicans like it or not, the former president still has a death grip on the party. you want to call it a party. now, there are other words,

other terms that you could call it. so, what are they doing when they could be, or should be, calling him out? when they should be operating within a democracy, what are they doing? they are stoking culture wars. they are playing to the base with manufactured outrage over president joe biden's vow to nominate the first black woman to the supreme court. they can't hang their outrage on her education or her record or anything at all, other than the one thing that they know. that she's black. they don't even know who she is, yet. you heard their cries. it's offensive. it's discrimination. it's affirmative action. that's what they say. all of that is pretty hard to square with the fact that there is never, in the 233-year history of the court, there has never been one single black female justice. think about that. wouldn't you think a black woman -- black women around this country would say, hey, don't we deserve a shot? 233 years?

you are going to call it affirmative action? i guess, the facts don't really matter when you are trying to gin up outrage any way you can. there is senator john kennedy telling "politico" this, and i am quoting here, number one, i want a nominee who knows a law book from a j. crew catalog. number two, i want a nominee who is not going to try to rewrite the constitution every other thursday to try to advance a woke agenda. there's a whole lot there, especially the whole j. crew catalog thing. but i don't have all night, and i just got off a red eye and i'm tired. senator kennedy, really? you're an ignoramus. you are just that dumb. and i am embarrassed because i am from louisiana. you embarrassed louisiana. all louisianans. just when you think you heard it

all, even though the president of the united states has vowed that his nominee wilhave extraordinary qualifications, extraordinary character, extraordinary experience and integrity, the senator manages to insult her intelligence. now, remind you, before he even knows who she is, he insults her with a dumb quip about knowing the difference between a law book and a j. crew catalog. sounds a lot like he's already decided that she is going to have a so-called woke agenda. and we have got more tonight on the story everybody is talking about, and that is the former miami dolphins head coach brian flores suing the dolphins, giants, the broncos, and nfl itself for racial discrimination saying the league is managed like a plantation, with owners who are not -- who are not black profiting from the labor players, 70% of whom are black. brian flores will be here tonight.

he is going to join me live, and we are going to have a whole lot -- a whole lot of players actually agree with him, everything that he says. watch this. >> this is bigger than football. um, many have -- have come before. um, and -- and done a lot to create change in this country. um for -- for people of color. um, and i just felt like, um, in this instance, you know, it was my turn to step up and -- and does -- and be an agent for change, and i'm -- i'm proud to do that. >> brian is going to become the rosa parks of the nfl, and rightly so. it took an inordinate amount of courage for him to file this lawsuit and to stand up against one of the largest corporations in the world. and talk about the fact that there is less opportunity for people of color than there are otherwise. >> this is not only happening in the nfl, but it is happening in top corporations and organizations around the country. and so, for brian flores to take this stand against one of the most profitable, biggest entities in the country -- it's

really saying something. >> we are seeing, as people who can't lead -- and i am speaking to african-americans -- there's a notion of african-american quarterbacks not being able to perform at the level of -- of quite white quarterbacks. there is a notion of them not being able to perform at the level of black -- excuse me, of white coaches and so on and so forth and we still have that narrative in the nfl and it starts with ownership. >> the fact that you have to have a rule to interview minority cultures is a problem. that's the problem. that's the -- that's the seed and the foundation of it because it's to save face. it's to create this whole utopia that everybody is equal in the nfl, and everybody is getting an equal opportunity. >> and that is just the beginning, my friends. wait till you hear what brian flores has to say, hilive, on ts program. breaking news tonight. newly-revealed details of

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so, the former president and his allies reportedly hatched a scheme to use fake electors to overturn the results of the 2020 election right after election day. that's according to reporting tonight in "the new york times." let's discuss now with cnn senior huh enforce. analyst, andrew mccabe. he is the former fbi deputy director and senior legal analyst, elie honig, former federal prosecutor. gentlemen, thanks for joining. andrew, "the new york times" reporting just two weeks after the election, lawyers for the trump campaign were laying the groundwork for the alternate-elector scheme, which ultimately became key to the strategy to overturn the election. what does this new information tell investigators? >> well, don, i think what this new information shows us is how much more complex, how much more thought -- thought out and planned this activity was than some, you know, we are clearly

not dealing with just a riot on january 6th. this was a -- a -- an agreement. you could -- you could start to couch it in terms of conspiracy, potentially. that was undertaken by a number of people around the former president with the clear goal of overturning the results of the election. it's -- each one of these documents that we see sheds a hitle bit more light on exactly who was doing what. it identifies new people the committee certainly will want to talk to, and probably folks that will come across the doj's radar now that we know they are looking into the same activity. >> i can hardly believe that i am speaking to you gentlemen about this, every time we report on it. i mean, ellie, federal prosecutors are reviewing the fake electoral college certificate submitted to the national archives. now, we are starting to see how early this mplan came into focu on january 6th. how early it was hatched. where -- any recourse for laws broken here? >> you and i are very much on the same page on asking that question. and when you look at these fake

elector certificates, they're really different than a lot of the other planning/plotting discussion that we have learned about because if you want to point to a specific, concrete federal crime, creating and submitting falsified documents to the federal government, to the national archives, that is a straightforward federal crime. and you and i continue to ask, and i will continue to ask, where is doj on this? all they have told us is they received a referral on this. they are aware of it. that's not enough and the timeframe that we are talking, we are a year out from january 6th and we have seen no concrete evidence that they are looking at anybody above the ground level and if that doesn't change, bottom line is there is not going to be any meaningful consequences to anyone for this. >> andrew, here is why it matters. this was a key part of the pressure campaign on pence to step in, and not certify the election. that's why it matters. and it's the same pressure campaign that led to that deadly violence by the trump supporters on january 6th. it's all part of the same strategy. >> that's absolutely right, don.

this is -- you know, i think most people started this thinking about it in terms of january 6th and the riot and the attack on the capitol. but every one of these elements was part of a complicated scheme to achieve the same result, right? this didn't start on january 6th. it started probably the day after the election. and now, we know. now, we have documents and these memos that actually take -- put a -- put a pin in the calendar as it were and show us at specific points in time, what people were thinking and what they were trying to accomplish. you set up the states to pursue the fake electors. you send in that material. that puts you in a position to put more pressure on mike pence to -- to refuse to certify the results. you know, all of these things depend on each other. it's a long process, and one that was clearly thought out very carefully by the people involved. >> let me follow up, andrew, because as you know, this past weekend, trump issued a statement saying he wanted mike

pence to overturn the 2020 election. he is -- he is laying it all out there. do you think he knows all of this information and more, that it is all coming and he is trying to inoculate himself from what is clearly, you know, just an un-american behavior here? >> you know, don, we've seen this from trump many times before. he comes right out with it. he throws it out into plain sight as a way of kind of taking the sting out of what he's doing, what he's saying. he throws it out there, and -- and pretends as if this is normal political activity, this is normal activity from a president. we know that it's not. we know it's offensive. we know that it's anti-democratic but he tries to kind of make things seem normal to kind of scoop up public opinion to go with him. it's absolutely the same way we have seen him conduct himself all through his time in the presidency. we shouldn't be surprised to see had it here. >> ellie, let's talk about jeffrey clark, former justice department official. he met be the january 6th committee for nearly two hours, likely pleading the fifth.

he pushed these unfounded voter fraud claims within the doj weeks after the 2020 election. he was in touch with trump, reportedly. that's according to officials who interacted with him. what exactly was he up to? >> well, if jeffrey clark took the fifth amendment today, as we believe he did, a, that was the smart move for him legally. b, it's a sad statement that he had a good reason to because let's remember what jeffrey clark did at the justice department that andrew and i both once worked for. he committed a fraud inside the very department that is charged with prosecuting fraud. he drafted this letter saying to the state of georgia saying we have detected significant election fraud that may impact the results of your election. and in other states. that's a lot. that is not true. we know that's not true. and he tried to get the justice department to put their letterhead on that, and send that letter out. imagine if they did what jeffrey clark wanted them to do. imagine if jeffrey rosen, who

was the acting ag at the time, went along with that. you would have had doj's official seal, which carries so much weight, behind this election fraud lie. so, jeffrey clark is one of the worst actors in this whole thing and if he took the fifth, he's smart to do so. >> yeah. and now, from jeffrey clark, andrew, to did you want to elaborate on that before i ask you a question? >> no, i think elie is exactly right. i think it is also a crafty move to avoid getting referred to doj to be indicted for failing to cooperate with the committee. he clearly did technically cooperate with the committee. he came in, he invoked his constitutional rights. committee's not going to go after him. this doj is certainly not going to go after him for -- for lying, you know, invoking his constitutional rights. i think he avoided potential problems in that regard. >> stuart rhodes, he is former -- he is a oath keepers' leader and he testified to the committee from jail today. he and ten others were charged with seditious conspiracy, andrew, the most seriousharge, yet. he allegedly noted to stop the

transfer of power by force, bringing weapons to d.c., and organizing quick-response teams to help insurrectionists. some oath keepers fought their way inside the capitol. are you surprised that he is cooperating? and -- and is that valuable to them? >> i am surprised, don. i'm surprised that the committee asked him to speak at all to be perfectly clear. i'm not surprised that he agreed to do it. it's unlikely that rhodes is going to come in and say anything except for self-serving statements designed to get himself out of trouble. we all know he is facing very serious charges under this current indictment. i am also shocked his lawyer allowed him to go and talk to the committee potentially under oath and put himself in jeopardy of getting charged with additional offenses for making false statements. he is -- um, he's not -- it's -- i mean, elie knows better than i do but i find it hard to believe he was under any sort of a proffer agreement that would have given him protection to speak freely. so, i find this whole thing to

be really surprising. >> elie, he invoked your name. give me a quick response, please. what do you say to that? >> i -- i'm as confused as andrew about what the strategy is here for stuart rhodes and speaking to the committee. maybe, he is trying to earn brownie points when the day comes when he can tell the judge i kind of cooperated but i would be shocked if he gave the committee useable information on other wrongdoers around him. >> elie, andrew, thank you both very much. i appreciate it. the former president calling an ally names because he -- he disagreed with him while the rnc is attempting to vote some of their own off the island. and ahead -- and behind it all, i should say, trump's attempt to overturn the election. stay with us. ! olay body wash hydrates to improve skin 3x better, from dry and dull to firm and radiant. with olay body, i feel fearless in my skin.

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the former president making it loud and clear what he expects from the party he's got in a death grip. admitting the obvious, again, last night emted the election overturned and he wanted then-vice president mike pence to do it, even though, in case anyone needs a reminder, mike pence never had the power to change the election results. trump also doubling down this week on his pledge to pardon the rioters from january 6th if he is re-elected, and yet, most republicans still say that they'd support him if he is the candidate in 2024. so joining me now to discuss,

former defense vek tare, william cohen. thank, secretary, for joining. so, listen, the former president is slamming lindsey graham, calling him a rino, you know, for saying that he would pardon because he is upset that lindsey graham's saying he shouldn't get a pardon or whatever. what is going on here? >> well, this is what a dictatorship looks like. we have seen this white elephant sitting in our living room for the past five years. he has never tried to hide who he is or what he believes in and that is total dictatorial power and reverence on the part of those in his party. so, if you speak the truth, he will condemn you. if you take any action to reveal what he has said or done, he will -- he will try to put you in jail. isn't this what putin does in russia? isn't this what every tyrant does? is to arrest his political opponents, either kill them or put them in jail in the case of

the russian dissident. um, and so we are seeing it take place right in front of our eyes. he wants to lock up hillary chi ch clinton. he wants to lock up joe biden, lock up his son. so, what he is saying is if i get back into power, this is what i am going to do. i am going to lock up the people who insult me, disagree me, don't pay reverence to me. and i am going to pardon all those who have committed crimes. so, he is foretelling us what he foretold us back in 2016 when he said putin, russia, if you are listening, come on in. and so, what he wants to do is to replicate in the united states what putin has in russia. and that's clear to everybody. >> look, anyone who -- who really strikes back. anyone who sort of contradicts what he has to say, especially republicans, personally, right? anything that trump says personally, um, they say what he is doing is dangerous. they get these repercussions

happening. kinzinger.tive liz cheney, adam i mean, they could be out of the -- the republican conference soon. there is -- and not be re-elected, right? there is a proposal making the rounds to remove them ahead of the rnc's winter meeting this week. what message is this sending? >> the message is you should fear me. was it fdr who said the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. well, most of the republicans are fearful. they are fearful of losing his supporters, helping them get re-elected. they are also fearful that he is set loose in this country, that it's okay to use violence to either intimidate, harass, or inflict punishment upon my political opponent. so, he's encouraging them to use violence. he did it during january 6th. he's done it last week. he will do it again. if you try and charge me with a crime, and he is open to being charged. in georgia, he may be open to

being charged here in the district for what he did as a seditious act. it was treasonous. he is saying, but if you charge me, i will turn all my supporters loose in every major city to show you can't. i am above the law. i can't be charged while i was in office, and i can't be charged after i heavy office. if you do, you will all pay a penalty. this is what happens when you slide from democracy, and i like to say we're one minute to midnight on the doomsday clock with democracy. we are that close to losing what we have fought so hard to have for the past 240 years. and i think i am glad lindsey graham spoke out. i would hope that everyone would speak out. any republican, democrat saying we condemn the use of violence to try to intimidate, harass, or hurt our political opponents or those who disagree with our philosophy. it's really un-american, unpatriotic. >> i want to turn now to the escalating tension in ukraine. president biden announcing today that he is going to deploy 3,000

troops to eastern europe in response to putin building up forces with new satellite images, they show that the buildup tonight of what is happening there. russia moving troops and equipment to the front lines, and building training areas in belarus and crimea. would you call this an escalation? what would you call it? >> oh, absolutely. this is what president putin does. he's taken and moved his pieces on the chess board to put us in a position of having to react. look. president putin has issues that we have to deal with. he said what is every country acts out of its self-interest. what is putin's self-interest? he doesn't want to be surrounded by countries he thinks would undermine his sovereignty. so, that's a legitimate concern on his part. he wants to be respected. emt e he wants to be seen as having a powerful country. all of that, i would want if i were him so i have an issue. we have issues here. we want -- we don't want free

countries to live under the roof of a prison, under a jailhouse of tyranny. so, how do we accommodate? how do we find common ground saying i know what your interests are, i want you to know what ours are, let's see if we can work out some kind of a deal where our mutual interests are accommodated. frankly, think we carried this publicly too much. diplomacy needs to be carried out privately at some point, and now what we are getting into is tabloid news. tabloid diplomacy where we are searching for headlines and the next day, who can insult the other in a more poetic or demeaning way. and so, i think they have got to take a step back and say we don't want to get into a war, a hot war with russia. nor, do they with us. so, understanding that, how do we defuse the situation? i think president biden's done the right thing. he is saying we are going to send these troops temporarily to our allies. and if you do take action, we are likely to send more and make

them not temporary but permanent. you don't want that. we don't want to have to do that. and i will tell you this, don. i think we are paying the wages of the sins of indecision in this country. we send so many conflicting signals to our allies. like the old song first you say you do, then you won't. then you say you will, then you won't. what we are doing is telling the -- the -- the countries in nato saying, oh, we are pivoting through asia. oh, by the way, we are getting out of afghanistan. we did get out of afghanistan. we did get out of syria. we are getting out of iraq. and by the way, we have insulted your chancellor or former chancellor by not paying her any respect. we have sent all of these signals, and now if i am putin, i am saying hey, i have got some opportunity here to drive a wedge between the united states and the nato allies and i am driving a wedge back in the united states. i am pitting americans against americans now. they have some americans saying, hey, why aren't we supporting putin taking over this country, this free country?

so his -- his game plan is pretty clear. we have to understand what we do. we have to be consistent. we have to have a comprehensive strategy and stick with it. not for one presidential term but two and three and four. >> yeah. well, i hope someone is listening. thank you. thank you very much, secretary. appreciate you joining us. >> russia, are you listening? >> yeah. thank you, secretary. so, here we go. whoopi goldberg off your tv for the next two weeks over her holocaust comments. should she have been suspended? where is the line? when should someone be cancelled or counseled? we are going to talk about that, next. and at the top of the hour, the fired nfl coach who is suing for racial discrimination is gonna speak out, live, right here. s why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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to cancel? or counsel? right? that's the question. one day into the suspension of the view host whoopi goldberg, she was suspended by abc after offensive comments suggesting race had nothing to do with the holocaust. whoopi apologized on air yesterday, and spoke about what she said with adlc jonathan greenblatt who was on this show, and said that he accepted her apology. i want to discuss now with a political theorist at harvard and the author of -- he is a political theorist at harvard and author of why diverse democracies fall apart, and how they can endure. and civil rights professor cornel west. good to see both you gentlemen. thank you so much. i appreciate you joining. going to start with you. do you think whoopi's suspension by abc goes too far after her on-air apology? >> yes, i think it does. um, i just don't see what it's supposed to accomplish. herb comments about the

holocaust certainly were offensive. it is historically ip accurate to suggest that the -- the murder of 6 million people had nothing to do with race. unfortunately, the way the nazis fought about race very much characterized jews as an inferior race and this is a large part of what drove the murder of 6 million jews. um, but whoopi goldberg made a mistake. uh, we solve the problem in the best way we can with lots of counter speak, lots of people pointing out the mistake she made. she realized that she had made a mistake. as you say, she apologized live on air. and that to me was a great teaching moment. viewers of "the view" may have learned something from it, may have come away with a better understanding of -- of this tragic part of human history and i don't see what is accomplished by telling her basically to go take a timeout, sit in the corner of a room and be ashamed of herself. this is just a way for network executives to -- to demonstrate that they are taking this

seriously. it doesn't really accomplish anything in the real world. >> professor west, let me play whoopi's original comments, again, and then we will have our conversation. here it is. >> if you are going to do this, then let's be truthful about it because the holocaust isn't about race. >> no. >> no. it's not about race. >> ethnicity. >> it's about -- >> but it's -- it's not about race. it's not about race. >> what is it about? >> because you -- it's about man's inhumanity to man. that's what it's about. >> so, the lesson here is that the holocaust was about race. maybe not in the definition that we think of in modern times but it's definitely about race. remember, they were trying to create a master race. jews were the inferior race. that's what jonathan greenblatt went on "the view" to say and said that on this show, as well. that it was about race. what did you think of this? >> well, in the fascist times,

we have got to stress integrity, honesty, and courage when people are wrong, they're wrong. my dear sister whoopi was wrong. brother yasha is right. there is no doubt when you talk about not just the holocaust, you are talking about 2,000 years of jewish brothers and sisters being a hated people and this is just the modern -- this is just the modern culmination of it with the holocaust. but whoopi's point about man's inhumanity to man is still a crucial one because the holocaust was distinctive. 6 million jewish brothers and sisters, you also had soviet folks there, you had gays, you had german socialists and communists but it was primarily targeting jews. but if we can't come out of this teachable moment with a deeper commitment to truth and integrity and honesty and courage, then we are not going to be able to be consistent and learning what we need to, which

is man's inhumanity to man, the fact that we, human beings, treat each other so viciously in a variety of different ways. and so, we have got to be concerned about the way jewish folk are treated, the way honduras folk are treated. thank god for dear brother brian flores and his great courage. the way brothers and sisters in brazil are treated. the way tibetans are treated. we have to be consistent. that is the great message. and so, i agree i think the suspension is excessive but if we don't come out more fortified, it is just another pr moment, brother. just another pr moment in corporate media know what i mean is this. >> yeah, well, it's interesting that you say that, because i have -- i have heard that from many people. but there are others who say, no, she should have been, you know, suspended. she should have been fired or what have you. but what good, if someone -- what is the incentive to apologize and to learn if you are still going to face the same consequences no matter what? just -- do you understand what i am saying? >> yeah, no, i agree with you entirely. um, you know, i think there is a

broader issue here. i think we are in a strange moment which we have lost one of the fundamental things you have to believe to live in a democracy, which is that most of the time, most of our fellow citizens are trying to do the right thing and can be decent people. and are open to argument or open to persuasion. and so, u know, as a result, we get very worried and we say we have to make sure their ideas aren't heard because they are going to influence people. they are going to lead to these disasters. and a lot of tarnl ideas out there but there is a lot of dangerous politicians running around. but if you believe in democracy as i do, you got to believe that you are actually able to persuade people with the morally right and the factually right ideas. and the way to do that is not to make them scared. not to make them afraid. not to make them think if i somehow slip up and say something wrong, even if i'm as big a star as whoopi goldberg, i am just going to go be banished and punished and so on. it is to actually have real discussions, and point out forcefully why whoopi goldberg

was wrong in her comment. but also, accept with grace when she says listen, i have understood. i have made a mistake and -- and then also welcome her into the fold, instead of this performative punishment which as cornel west was saying, serves network more than that of anybody else. >> the interesting thing is that we have this idea -- what i said earlier -- this sort of, um, modern idea about what race is. what exactly is race? is it a social construct? um, many people see it as color. is it something that's visible? what exactly is it? let's have that conversation, we will take a break and talk about it on the other side. we'll be right back. you can be well-mannered. (man) oh, no, no, after you. wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed. or even well-spoken. (man) ooooooo. (vo) but there's just something about being well-adventured. (vo) adventure has a new look.

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if the klan is coming down the street and i'm standing with a jewish friend and neither one -- well, i'm going run. but if my friend decides not to run, they'll get passed by most times because you can't tell who's jewish. it's not something that people say oh, that person is jewish or this person is jewish. so that's what i was trying to explain. >> that was whoopi, what she said when she went on colbert to clarify her holocaust comments. back with me now yascha mounk and professor cornel west. this whole thing is about having a conversation and getting people to learn, right? so professor, listen, quite honestly when i heard that i was actually getting dressed. i was in los angeles and i was guessed dressed and i had it on in the background. and i kind of understood what she was saying. it was a little clumsy. she was talking about race as something you can see.

and here in america especially as people of color we get that. but that is not always the case. not all jewish people present as white. like jonathan greenblatt said that on this very program last night. >> that's right. >> but the nazis said that jewish people were a race, the reason for the stars, they wanted to be able to identify them. they saw them as an inferior race. that's the lesson in it here. talk to me about that. you can understand why people can see where she's coming from with that part of it. but it was clumsy. >> no, that's true. we know the klan was founded against catholics, jews and then especially blacks. but it was actually all-inclusive in that sense. and it's also true that even during the holocaust, you know, it was against slavic folk too. i mentioned the poles and the russians were viewed as inferior. they had black germans there. they were viewed as inferior. but jews were targeted by the

gangster fascists in germany. in the united states you have an attempt of many jews to assimilate and too often become identified with the gentiles, with the goyim, as it were. and yet the deep anti-jewish sensibilities in america make it very difficult for there to ever be full-fledged jewish assimilation within the white mainstream. but when it comes to caste-like treatment of black people the black predicament is very different from the white jewish predicament in america. so that's part of what she's trying to get at but she was clumsy about it. >> race is a social construct. do you guys agree with that or disagree with that? yascha? >> i do believe that. i think that people think about social truck as something with either -- either completely real

and biological, orb it has no basis in reality at all. and that's the wrong way to think about it. >> it is a social construct, but there are real world consequences for it. people died because of their race, even though it is something that people constructed for -- >> yeah, and of course that certain ethnic differences that you can see. you can mostly guess whether someone has ancestors in asia or ancestors in africa or ancesto in europe. the way in which we think about the difference wean races is socially constructed. and that's what's relevant in this context. in the united states, tradit traditionally -- but the most important has been whether somebody is black or somebody is not black. that will determine whether somebody might have been enslaved. that determines whether somebody's rights might have been violated in the most extreme ways. but there is lots of different contexts in the world in different ways of thinking about

race are more prominent, more salient. forms of racism like against jews in europe -- >> i think yascha froze, professor west? >> have our definition of racism changed over the years? >> our social construct, once it's institutionalized and legalized, it takes on a life of its own. you see. so white supremacy is a construct. but once inscribed in laws and inscribed in how you see black people and inscribed on black beauty and intelligence, same with indigenous hispanic peoples and so forth, it gets institutionalized in your society. then that lie becomes a lie kbr alive because you have institutions reinforcing it. it was rooted in predatory capitalist expansion looking for resources and using back people and black bodies for labor to

assure they gain access to big money and they made it the law of the land, hundreds of years. and it cannot but have some consequences. you see what i mean? >> yascha, how do we do this? we'll have you back. i want to know -- i don't believe in canceled, when people say cancel culture. i believe it's consequences. and i believe intent is important. and i don't think there is a dumb question, because that's how you learn, right, when you ask a question, no matter how dumb people may think it is. how do we navigate these tough conversations without fear when race has become such a third rail? what do we do, yascha? >> well, i think we have to have more trust in each other. we have to have more trust in the fact that most people say something because they actually believe it, and they're not bad actors. they're not bad human beings. they're trying to express themselves, trying to understand

the world. and if you deeply disagree with them, then the right solution is not to shut them is, it is to express your disagreement. it's to say why you are offended by something. in this context, why so many jews were hurt by what whoopi goldberg said, and she understood that and apologized which i think is the best possible outcome. you know, here is one really important thing. one of the consequences of living in a democracy is that in the end, people ve a secret vote. and i think if we try to change the culture of a country, if we try to change how people -- what people believe, how they feel by punishing them for expressing their ideas, they're just going to take those ideas to the voting booth, and they're going to vote for people who threaten our democratic institutions. so i think it's better to allow them to speak and to disagree with them, to explain why they should come to have a different point of view. >> yeah. listen, i've been saying all along and talking about leave it to you about this professor,

especially during this election as far back as 2016, 2015, people need to realize who their allies are. and sometimes allies say really stupid thing, right. as a gay black man, sometimes our allies are saying insulting things. but at the end of the day, i understand that they're an ally. and the chances of you getting through to them are greater than getting through to someone who is a bigot or who is not an ally. so we immediate to realize who they are and not try to push them aside, and not try to cancel them. >> it has to be earned. >> it's got to be earned. you have to know who your allies are. >> in terms of execution. >> yascha, thank you. will you please come back? i want to continue this conversation. >> of course, thank you. >> professor, i know you'll be back. thank you, sir. we'll be right back. >> love you, brother.

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