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good evening again. topping this hour of "360" what the house january 6 committee could be learning or not from two aides from the former president. and jeffrey clark, who the former president hoped to make the top law enforcement official. joining us with what we know about today's testimony is ryan nobles at the capitol. jeffrey clark testified. what do we know? >> well, he testified, anderson, meaning he was in the room, but he didn't answer too many questions. we're told for the one hour and 40 minutes he was in there, he plead the fifth more than 100 times for the questions asked of him by the january 6 select committee.

this doesn't really come as a surprise. clark has been facing a criminal contempt referral by the committee. and right before they were set to vote on it by the entire house, he informed them that he was planning to plead the fifth. the question now is how does the committee handle that criminal contempt referral. representative zoe lofgren who is a member of the committee earlier today on cnn suggested that perhaps they offer him an immunity deal that says any questions he answers in front of the january 6 committee could then not be used against him in a criminal prosecution, which would essentially negate the ability to take the fifth. that's just one option on the table. but at this point, anderson, they're getting no answers from clark, who they consider to be an important witness in this investigation. >> what about the former aides to mike pence who talked. >> both marc short, who is the former chief of staff to vice president mike pence and greg jacob who is his chief counsel, both met with the committee for a significant amount of time, between six and eight hours. unlike the lack of cooperation they're getting from jeffrey clark, it seems to be that the committee is learning quite a

bit from both of these gentlemen. they did draw some red lines. they said they were not going to talk about anything that trump's legal team considered to be areas that could be called into executive privilege. so, that meant specifically conversations that the president may have had with the vice president or with either of these two gentlemen. but the committee believes that that was still a cooperative interview and that they were able to get a lot of information from both of these men. obviously the role that mike pence had on the days leading up to january 6 on january 6th itself is so important to their investigation. and both of these gentlemen were in that orbit during that period of time. of course short, his chief of staff, was with him in the capitol on the day as he was evacuated. they really have the potential to offer up the committee a lot of information they're looking for. >> ryan nobles, appreciate it. want to get perspective from someone who knows what this kind of testimony entails, former white house council and contributor john dean. john, the fact that these pence

aides reportedly did not discuss direct conversations they had or that the vice president had with the then president, that's -- i mean, that could be pretty -- i mean, there could be a lot of valuable information in stuff that they're not talking about. couldn't there? >> there can be. just let me do a little hair splitting on executive privilege. there are two facets of it. there are direct communications with the president, and there are also what they call deliberative conversations that don't necessarily involve direct information to and from the president. if they -- in the area of deliberative discussions, they could reveal virtually everything that the committee wanted to know about what the president was saying without necessarily revealing the president's conversations. that sounds like what's going on here to me. >> so, wait, i'm not a lawyer, so how do you do that? how do you have a -- talk about a deliberative conversation and reveal what somebody said to you

directly without revealing what they said to you directly? >> well, let's say somebody had a direct conversation with the president and then they talked about it with others and it becomes hearsay in that conversation, so they're not directly revealing what the president said, but they're talking about the discussion of how they made a decision to advice the president based on what they believed he wanted or didn't want. >> i see. >> so you could get around it, theoretically. >> how worried -- they did testify many hours, six to eight hours. so, clearly they were talking about something. whereas, clark, apparently, according to reporting, said he took the fifth some 100 times, was there a little less than two hours. that makes it sound like he didn't really say anything at all. >> it certainly sounds like that. it sounds like he -- you know, he knows he's under the threat of potential criminal referral. he wanted to show up. a lot of the people who are not testifying and taking the fifth

are appearing electronically. so he did show up. that's a step forward. but what zoe lofgren suggested, that he might get immunity, to could be very telling. they won't do that, however, anderson, unless they know what he's got. and that's very possible from the senate hearing and from the others in the justice department they know, it would be worth while to immunize him. and that could force him to testify everything he took the fifth to. >> and is that something that then the committee would work out with clark's attorneys, saying, look, we've considered giving you immunity if we know -- if, you know, you get to tell us right now everything you know and then we'll, you know, without harm, and we'll judge whether we can give you immunity or not? >> there actually is a formal procedure. the house has a statute. it's a federal statute for both the house, the senate. they can immunize any witness they want to by a vote of the committee, a majority of the committee. the attorney general has no

choice but to accept it. a district court judge has no -- he does the -- grants the immunity. but it's not anything he can decide on and deliberate. he is actually, when a committee requests it, the judge grants it. so, that is the process that's in place. used a lot during watergate. >> we're also learning tonight that the committee members were described as a significant discussion today about whether to subpoena lawmakers who won't voluntarily cooperate, kevin mccarthy, jim jordan, scott perry. how do you think they're willing to go to get -- how far would they go to get them to talk? >> well, it sounds by the reference by the chairman to wanting to honor the institution is they don't want to issue subpoenas. there's not obviously a history of doing this. they're digging out what is in history right now. but there is another leverage they probably discussed, and that would be to threaten either

censured by the house or taken to the ethics committee. either one of those could indeed, if somebody was on the fence and might be able to be pushed over by the threat of a censure. that would take a vote of the house. the democrats control. they could indeed censure. it would be seen as political if no republicans join, but some republicans might want to think it's part of the institution that members testify. certainly they'll set up the rules that they'll do nothing that does anything to the credibility of the house under the general ethics rules every member agrees to. >> appreciate it. thank you. we have breaking news in the ukraine standoff. earlier this evening white house deputy security adviser said a russian invasion of ukraine could come at any time. there's also growing concern about russian troops just two hours from kyiv. this is at the end of the day that also saw the biden administration accusing the russians of preparing a false

flag pretext to invade, a complete with a graphic propaganda video depicting a phony attack on russia or russian personnel. there is a lot to talk about. matthew chance is in the european capital tonight. what have you heard? >> yeah, u.s. and diplomats now expressing their alarm at the buildup of russian forces near the ukrainian border inside belarus. they're calling it a big worry. they're saying that a massive force like that building up in the neighboring country of belarus is a crucial piece. if russia, for instance, decides to carry out a quick strike against this city, against kyiv, the ukrainian capital, it's just a couple of hours away. nato says it expects to see somewhere in the region of 30,000 russian troops eventually arriving in belarus to take part in what are meant to be military drills, significant in itself. but even more kind of alarming

when you consider there are at least another 130,000 russian troops that have already been positioned in other areas, mainly in russia, near to the ukrainian border, potentially poised to come in. so, very disturbing new developments in terms of that ongoing russian deployment in the region of forces and threatening ukraine, anderson. >> what's the response been to the u.s. claims about russia plotting some sort of video, fake video attack, to -- as a pretext for invasion? >> yeah, pretext, provocation. well, look, i mean, the ukrainian officials i've spoken to, including senior officials at the interior ministry here, say that's exactly the kind of false flag operation that they've been warning of and they've been sort of disrupting over the past several weeks and indeed over the past several days. so, there's a lot of agreement between the ukrainians and the united states on the nature of

the kind of provocation, the kind of false flag operation that ukraine is facing that could be a pretext to some kind of russian invasion of ukrainian territory. so, they welcome that and they agree with it. on the other side of the dispute, if you like, with the russians, well, they've -- as you might expect -- distanced themselves from any kind of operation like this. they've also said that they have no plan. they've said this again and again. they have no plan to invade ukraine, and certainly wouldn't get involved in any kind of, you know, a covert operation like that. so, they're attempting to put as much distance from themselves and this allegation as they can. >> matthew chance, we appreciate it. thank you. coming up next, the raid that took down another isis leader. we'll talk about how it was done and the longer term impact on the terror organization. we'll talk with cnn's peter bergen and retired general mark

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for the second time in a little more than two years, an isis leader is dead after an american air strike. in 2019 it was abu bakr al baghdadi. this time his successor known as haji abdullah. according to officials, american forces had the building surrounded when he blew himself up, also killing his wife and children. joining us to talk about the significance of the latest raid, cnn national security analyst peter bergen, author of the rise and fall of osama bin laden. and mark hertling, former commander general in europe . peter, how effective are strikes like these in crippling a group like isis? >> well, i mean, if you look at the taliban, anderson, president obama ordered a strike on mullah

mansur who was the leader of the taliban. he was killed, they replaced him, and now they control afghanistan. in that case, clearly it was ineffective. i do think the attack on bin laden, al quaeda never really recovered from that. it was already in bad shape. they had taken a lot of hits from drone strikes from arrests. the new leader of al quaeda has not been particularly competent. so, i think it kind of depends on each group. but we know isis will appoint somebody else. they appointed somebody else after after abu bakr al baghdadi was killed during the trump administration. i don't think it's insignificant, but of course the war goes on. the ideology continues. one man's death does not kill this ideology which appeals to a certain group of people in failed or failing states in the middle east, central asia, and also in africa. >> general hertling, you knew this person from your time as commander in northern iraq or knew of. what can you tell about his importance within isis after al baghdadi was killed?

>> i can tell you history in northern iraq when i was there in 2007 and '08 is he was one of the deputy amirs of mosul. and as you remember, anderson, mosul was spook central in terms of what was going on with isis and the evolution of al qaeda into isis at the time. he was captured in 2008 by joint special operations command, interrogated multiple times, and gave actually some false information back and forth, was imprisoned and then later released by the iraqi government. he then became al baghdadi's deputy and has watched al baghdadi until he was killed in 2019 and then took over. but he is a theological leader -- or was a theological leader within isis. he had a degree from the university of mosul. in sharia studies. so, he was a guy who took sort

of a contrary view of what isis could be from a strategic standpoint living under sharia law and ensuring that it was executed throughout the global environment. so, i think -- i kind of disagree with peter a little bit, whereas, yeah, there's a constant whac-a-mole in terms of killing people and watching a new one take over. this guy was really trying to centralize the command of isis in many nations and pull them together. not as successful but he was attempting to do that. >> peter, i'm fascinated by these groups in africa which have now popped up claiming allegiance to or spiritual allegiance to isis. are they actually linked directly to -- are they supported by isis? or is it just an ideological affinity and they want the name recognition and so they pledge allegiance to isis? >> i think it's the latter. if you slap on the isis patch and say you're part of isis, you're now the biggest, baddest jihadist group on the block. i mean, there is an example of some group -- there was an isis

group in libya that the united states did a lot of damage on, which was really a wholly-owned subsidiary of isis central in syria and iraq. but a group like isis in afghanistan, isis-k, isis khorasan, as it's known, is mostly former taliban people who objected to the taliban peace negotiations with the united states in some cases, had other objections, are more anti-shia, and slapped on the patch. and i don't think they take -- it's not like they're taking orders from isis central in syria and iraq. >> general hertling, a decision to use elite forces to target someone like this, instead of something like a drone or an air raid of some kind, how much goes into making that call? because obviously there's a whole level of risk to it for u.s. personnel. it's not, you know, a missile being fired from a great distance. >> what you want in these kind

of raids, one that jsoc, joint special operations command, go out, they do kill or capture. it's actually capture, then kill. when you get a capture of a leader within a terrorist network, there is always a probability you're going to get some intelligence. when you bomb a facility, you know you're going to get a kill if the individual is in there. but you can't get the intelligence associated with it. so, when you're talking about the leader of, as i said before, potential of a global organization, you know there is the probability that there is going to be intelligence and a vast amount at that location. so, if -- if you bring in the special operations fighters, they are going to not only potentially capture or kill the individual, get more information from him, but they're also going to clear the area as well and take out quite a bit of intelligence. from what i understand in this raid, that's exactly what happened. not just from al koreshi, but

his courier who was on the second floor. if you can get that kind of information to know who the contacts are, if it's written down or if -- like in the baghdadi raid, there were computers or the like, then you've got some information that you can actually use in the next operation and the next operation. and you may know who might be next in li to be the leader or who the amirs are of the various agencies are that deals with money or the theological decision making or the operatives. it's pretty important to do that. it puts people at risk for sure, but it has a great deal of reward as well. >> general mark hertling, peter bergen, thanks. appreciate it. >> thank you. up next the nation mourning the loss of nypd officer wilbert mora. we'll talk with a former officer and the struggles police are facing in combatting crime and morale. life can be a lot to handle. ♪ this magic moment ♪ but heinz knows there's plenty of magic in all that chaos. ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪

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are you a christian author with a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! the nation was gripped by a heart wrenching scene in new york city yesterday after thousand of officers gathered to grieve the loss of new york police officer wilbert mora, who died in the line of duty last month along with his colleague, jason rivera. as the city grapples with a rise in gun violence, including growing violence against the police force, president biden visited new york today meeting with the mayor and presenting new initiatives in an effort to combat gun crime. last hour i spoke with new york city mayor eric adams about his solution, and he had this

message. >> but when you do reform, you can't ignore public safety. we witnessed individuals who only pushed reform and ignored public safety. both parties must be in the room. we need to have the justice we deserve but the safety we need. >> joining us now is cnn law enforcement analyst, former law narcotics officer with d.c. police officer michael fanone. you heard in the last hour. i wonder what you make of president biden's efforts to combat gun violence, particularly the mayor's comments about the pendulum swinging too far as a result of protests in the last few years. and he's sort of trying to figure out a way to build back the morale and build back the effectiveness of the police? >> i like the comments mayor adams made. i mean, we need to -- we need to learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

i don't like the pendulum swinging one way or the other. i want to rip the pendulum off. we have a moment now where, you know, we can reengage with public safety and also have a conversation about policing and police reform. i like the way that he's going about it. and, you know, he seems to be at least trying to tackle both things at the same time. >> it's a difficult thing to do, obviously. you've said in the past that police officers need to be reassured that its leaders stand behind them. do you think mayor adams accomplished that today? do you think president biden made efforts to accomplish that today? what should, do you think, leaders be doing to show that they stand behind and understand at least law enforcement's perspective? >> i think what we're experiencing right now with this rise in crime is a direct result of law enforcement, police officers, being placed in this

position where -- it's like we're in a culture war. we're being utilized or pandered to by different political entities and really pitted against members of the community. at least that's, you know, the appearance. but in reality i think police officers are getting fed up. we don't want to be pandered to. we just want the resources that we need to keep communities safe. and citizens are tired of it as well. they just want to live in safe communities. what i want from politicians is, you know, the ability to -- to do my job as a police officer, do it safely, do it effectively, have the training that i need to go into these communities and keep them safe. >> you know, i read the initial reports of the killing of these -- of the two police officers, one of whom's funeral

i know you attended last week. and to me, it was -- it's an example of just not only the incredible dangers of a police officer's job, but the difficulty faced. you know, there was a lot of talk when people were talking -- there was people -- demonstrators about defund police. people who had a more middle ground were saying, look, there's situations that the police, you know, don't necessarily want to be the one to have to respond to, but there's no one else in society who does respond to them. so, it's the police officers that take that burden. people point to distress called, people in mental health distress. from what i understand, the call these officers got to go to the apartment where they were shot, it was not somebody who was known to have a weapon. it was a mother having conflict with a son. and when they came, the son came out of the room with the -- with guns and was firing.

it's just, to me, a reminder of how difficult even situations that may not seem violent or may not seem potentially violent to start with can quickly, in the blink of an eye, turn deadly. >> oh, absolutely. i mean, i -- the system is not perfect. we -- you know, there are situations in which police officers get called where i think there may be other, you know, other entities that are better suited to deal with those situations. but unfortunately that's what we have. and diverting funds away from law enforcement is not a way to explore other means of tackling some of those issues. i mean, if you want to, you know, explore that, fine. create new funding or find other ways to fund them. but pulling money away from police and police departments creates the situation that we're dealing with right now. >> as i mentioned, you attended the funeral of officer jason rivera.

and what is -- the other issue i've noticed with police officers just in the last year, especially in new york city, it seems like morale is really down. and we've heard from a number of police officials who have said this. how -- how does that come back? how does one build that back? >> well, first, morale has been circling the drain for a lot longer than the past year. i mean, i saw it tilt, i guess, probably shortly after 2015, and it's been on a steady decline ever since then. i think that what we're seeing right now, at least in new york with reengagement in prioritizing public safety, that's one thing that we can do. the next step, i think, is to reimagining the way that police officers train and the way that

we prepare them to be on the street. and that is going to require additional funding, not defunding, devestment, or, you know, whatever. >> mike fanone. i appreciate talking to you as always. thanks so much. thank you. up next we have new reporting on the former president's endorsements for congress, and why they're causing fractures within the republican party determined to regain majorities in the house and senate. of thought leaders offers investors a broader view. ♪ we see companies protecting the bottom line by putting people first. we see a bright future, still hungry for the ingenuity of those ready for the next challenge. today, we are translating decades of experience into strategies for the road ahead. we are morgan stanley. [♪] powerful skincare ingredients come dermatologist-recommended, and there's a brand that offers them

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republicans attempt to take back congress will rest in part on getting their base out, and that relies heavily on appeasing the one man who's always connected with them, the former president. unfortunately for the party, he has his own ideas about who should be running for office this year. and those endorsements are sparking frustration, even some fractures among some republicans. capitol hill reporter melanie

zinona has the story. republicans. also with a senior political correspondent, anchor of "politics sunday" abby phillip. why are some republicans not so happy with the president's latest round of endorsements? >> first let me start by saying it's pretty rare to see trump allies push back on him publicly, but that is what we're seeing in a few cases where they don't think he's picking the right candidate because those candidates are not trumpy enough. in tennessee, for example, trump endorsed morgan ortagus. she was a spokesperson in the state department under the trump administration. but conservatives and a number of freedom caucus members have issues with her because apparently she sent an email in january of last year saying i look forward to serving in the biden administration. and that rubbed a lot of people in maga world the wrong way. marjorie taylor greene told me she went down to mar-a-lago last friday and told trump exactly why she thought this person didn't deserve his endorsement. this goes to show the rare frustrations that is starting to boil up over some of trump's endorsements. >> even if you're a gop insider who hates an endorsement by the

former president, how much can one push back? what are their options? >> i mean, i don't think there are many options at this point. this is donald trump's party. and his endorsement really carries quite a lot of weight. there is, i think, a phenomenon that melanie reported on in which trump sometimes endorses the wrong person in a multi-way race. that rubs some people the wrong way. that race plays out. and then ultimately, his endorsement is still the thing that matters at the end of the day in getting the base out. so, whether you like it or not, his whims and whimsies about these things -- and sometimes they can literally be whatever he feels like, as it seems to be with morgan ortagus -- that determines the situation. and the establishment, so to speak, has nothing to say or do about it at the end of the day. >> also melanie, the former president, he's made no secret, he's raised an enormous amount of money for a potential run and continues to raise an enormous amount of money. are the people he endorses

raising similar amounts of money? >> no, no, actually a lot of the candidates that trump has endorsed are struggling to raise money. in fact, every single trump-backed candidate who is challenging one of the house republicans who voted to impeach trump are being outraised by their opponents. and it's more striking given the fact that as you mentioned, anderson, trump has amassed this massive war chest of his own. his pac has given to a lot of these candidates, and they say they're planning to give more and do more, but i think it actually raises some questions about the power of a trump endorsement. i think there are limits even if he is the most powerful force in the party. >> abbey, there a sign at all that the former president is losing some of his grip on the party? >> i do think it's really interesting to see how this plays out because you're seeing -- so, for example, some of the establishment republicans who have bucked trump, like liz cheney, for example, are getting the backing of, you know, established donors who are circling the wagons around them.

and that might be protecting some of these members from the financial impact of being on the wrong side of trump. on the other hand i think we have to ask whether or not the flow of money is going to reflect the enthusiasm of voter when is they actually go to the ballot box. we will find out. money does matter. but i wonder if in this particular environment the money and the enthusiasm might actually be divorced from each other, at least at the on set. and we will start to see the effect of a trump endorsement. as you get closer to a general election or perhaps the end of a primary. >> we also heard, melanie, there was a more orderly process to the former president's process. he has a team, making recommendations. is he listening to that team? or is it still kind of a jazz solo of kind of just whatever he wants, whoever shows up at mar-a-lago? >> you're right. there was a process put in place that was designed to bring more

order and thoughtfulness to his endorsement process. and trump wants to pick winners. he feels burned by some of his past endorsements including sean parnell in pennsylvania who ended up dropping out amid scandal. trump does want to follow the advice of his advisers, but he is very impulsive. trump is going to do what trump wants to do. and case in point, morgan ortagus met with trump and 24 hours later, he endorsed her even though she hadn't officially declared her candidacy in tennessee. so just a perfect example of how he is still doing what trump wants to do. >> abby, if republicans take back the house after the midterms, how much will their picked up seats affect washington? if a lot come from moderate versus deep red pro trump rural districts? >> i think that will make a huge difference in where the center of gravity in the house of representatives. but i also think that you're seeing a republican party that is actually accelerating its radicalization in certain ways

and its allegiance to trump in certain ways. what you're seeing in many of these races is a lot of candidates fighting to be close to trump. not so much candidates talking about being in the middle of the electorate. whether or not those candidates can win general elections is a different story. but within the republican party right now, this is a fight among people who want to, you know, be more trumpier than the other guy. and for that reason, i think you're going to see probably as republicans pick up seats in deep red parts of the country, a more conservative house majority if they were to win control of the house. >> appreciate it. coming up, former nfl star tiki barber joins us. going to look at the lawsuit from a head coaching candidate now suing the league, claiming widespread discrimination. barber's response next.

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flores, who recently coached the miami dolphins, is suing the nfl and its teams. among his claims that the giants interviewed him for the job under false pretensions after hiring a white candidate. he cites a text from patriots coach bill belichick congratulating him for a message meant for the white contender belichick had no insight. right now the league only has one black head coach. earlier here on "360" kareem abdul-jabbar sided with flores as we talk about the rule that requires teams to interview candidates for senior roles. >> i think the giants just checked a box. you know, did you interview any minority candidates? and they checked the box they interviewed one or two minority candidates. and they move on and do what they've always been doing. and somebody had to call them out on it. and you know, coach flores risked everything, you know, his own career.

but it's bigger than that. it's bigger than coaching. you know, this is about how we live in america. and something should be done about it. >> former giants star team tiki barber is among those pushing back against suggestions the giants are racist. he choked up during his radio talk show recalling his visit to one of the team owners on his deathbed years ago. >> it was our off day, and i remember this. i get emotional when i think about this because why me? right? i went to his bedside. he's still alive at this point. and i just tell him, thank you for making me a giant. and, you know, the fact that and i always say this with letitius as well, they embraced me like i was family. you know what i mean? and so, i know them intimately so when i say i don't believe they are racist, it's because i -- i know they're not.

>> tiki barber is co-host of the tiki tyranny, he joins me now. thanks so much for being with us. how do you think the giants have gotten themselves or found themselves in the middle of this lawsuit? obviously, very different experience than -- than you had. >> yeah, well, i think it's -- it's really hard to understand the emotions of brian flores until you see this emotion. like, i can't tell him that his truth is not real. he felt like he was going into an interview where he actually didn't have a chance but bill belichick is not a member of the new york giants' staff. he has no intimate knowledge, and he was making an assumption based on something he heard from somewhere else, i'm assuming. um, but i do know that the new york giants went through the process correctly. maybe, they had a favorite in brian dabel who is the white offensive coordinator from the buffalo bills by we know for a fact that john tisch reached out to brian flores right after he was fired and said don't take a job, we have interest in you. um, is the rooney rule somewhat broken?

absolutely. i think it injects candidates way too hatlate in the process. three or four days before a team has to make a decision, so it needs to be amended in some ways. but to blanket call/generalize that nfl teams or executive within those teams are racist is a generalization that will always be wrong because you can't just say that, based on what -- what -- what history has shown us as far as hiring is concerned. and you know this, anderson, because i'm sure you studied it like everybody else. the rooney rule is not working for head coaches but it is working for other parts of nfl hiring. a few years ago, there was one blk general manager in the national football league. now, there are seven, and i think the process is working on the executive level. it still has a lot of work to do on the coachinlevel. but it's -- it's -- i think it's too harsh and too incendiary to say that, just because there aren't enough black head coaches, that teams in the league is racist in general. it's just too generalized. >> one of the points kareem abdul-jabbar was making earlier

was that he believes the nba, over the over the last many years, has done a much better job of increasing the level of diversity, the higher you go in organizations and the executive ranks. >> absolutely. >> um, why do you think that we haven't seen that kind of a rise in -- in the nfl? >> i think in the nba -- i don't want to say it's easier because that's discounting how hard it is to be a head coach at any sport -- really, at any business that you are in. but i think in the nba, you are seeing a lot of coaches step right off the playing court, and get into coaching and not too soon after that, they become head coaches. ty lou, who won a national championship, an nba championship for the cleveland cavaliers is a perfect example. in the nfl, it is a lot more nuanced. it's a lot harder. it's a more dil -- detailed path to go from a position coach, say, after you step off the field into a coordinator position to, ultimately, a head coach and becoming one of those top head coaches.

it is also a more difficult job. instead of, you know, watch -- worrying about 15 guys, you are worried about 53 active man rosters or 16 practice squads, not to mention the low gistics of hiring a very diverse, sometimes up to 30 coaches on your staff and it's not for someone to just step off the field and walk into. so the nba has made great strides. they are up to 43% of black coaches. the nfl is not there, yet. but i do think they are starting to make some strides when you look at the pool of black defensive coordinators and offensive coordinators and special teams' coaches and black quarterback coaches, which used to be none. now, there is at least four. it gives -- it gives you the belief that some change is coming but it might be a little bit more than a one or two-year fix. it's probably somewhat closer to generational. >> it's interesting, because i mean, you look at the corporate world and many businesses -- the media businesses and -- and others -- um, you know, there is -- there is a real issue of -- of diversity. a problem of diversity in newsrooms and diversity in the

leadership positions and in the board rooms, certainly. and we see this around companies across the united states. with the nfl, though, i mean, the -- one of the arguments i guess made in the corporate world is that if there is not a -- a pool of employees -- diverse pool of employees at all levels early on, then it takes -- you have a less of a pool to -- to make it up into board rooms. in the nfl, there is a very -- you know, the majority of players are black or some other minority group. and therefore, there is a large pool of people who, theoretically, should be able to make it through the -- that hierarchy. i mean, you said it's -- it's a difficult route. um, and i don't know enough about it to -- to quibble with that. but it's certainly a big pool of potential people down the road. >> it is. it is. we talked about this -- me and brandon, my co-host -- we talked about this today because when i think about who becomes head coaches in the nfl, generally speaking, it is the quarterback. for generations, blacks didn't

play quarterback. it was -- it was frowned upon. they were asked to change positions but two the last mvps in the nfl have been black quarterbacks. and malik willis, for example, from liberty university. most people don't know who he is but he is going to be a first-round draft pick as a black quarterback. that wouldn't have happened a decade ago, so i think it is starting to change and the pool is getting larger for those positions that generally rise into coaches and coordinators and things of that nature. it's not perfect, anderson. we all know that but i don't think it's as racist as it's being put out there to -- in -- from some of these -- especially, this lawsuit. >> yeah. tiki barber, really a pleasure to that talk to you. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. be well. >> you too. we'll be right back. i get powerful, effective and safe relief. salonpas. it's good medicine. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed.

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get started with fast and reliable internet and voice for just $64.99 a month. or, ask how to get a visa prepaid card with a qualifying bundle. quick reminder don't miss full circle our digital news show that give us a chance to have indengt conversation. last night's guest had written an article about e-mail etiquette called what if we just stopped being so available? take a look. >> i am constantly apologizing on virtually every e-mail or text even i send because i have

not responded immediately or within what the receiver thinks is probably a responsible amount of time. and i resent the expectation that i am supposed to just immediately respond to stuff, and i -- i resist it but i am an anomaly and literally, i feel lo like i have friends who have just given up on me because they are insulted, so am i wrong? >> i am totally, completely with you. um, the frustration that you just -- >> yes. clearly, i am very passionate about not responding to e-mails right away. you can catch it streaming live 6:00 p.m. eastern, mondays, wednesdays, and fridays at cnn.com/fullcircle. that's it for us. let's turn things over to don and "don lemon tonight." >> two things. i like the sweater on the full circle picture and i am dealing with that very issue right now. why didn't you call me back? why didn't you text me? i'm not available. i am busy. i have stuff to do. >> i resent when people expect