y perks. [echoing] get a quote today. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com the news continues, so let's hand it over to laura coates and cnn tonight. >> hi john berman. always nice to see you especially. thank you all. i am laura coates and this is "cnn tonight." alarms are being sounded metaphorically in the loudest ways yet by the west. the president, our defense secretary, our secretary of state, the head of nato and others all putting russia on blast for sinister intentions, in hopes to somehow stave off an invasion of ukraine, which they keep warning is imminent. >> every indication we have is they're prepared to go into ukraine, attack ukraine. my sense it will happen within

the next several days. >> our information indicates clearly that these forces, including ground troops, aircraft, ships, are preparing to launch an attack against ukraine in the coming days. >> we see them add to the more than 150,000 troops that they already have a radar on that border, and i know first hand that you don't do these sort of things for no reason. >> they don't do these things for no reason. well, they're also laying out putin's playbook for the world. the russian leader isn't known for his honesty, shall we say. he's manufactured crises before as a pretext for war. and biden and company are warning, beware because it seems to be happening all over again. >> we have reason to believe that they are engaged in a false flag operation to have an excuse to go in. >> russia plans to manufacture a pretext for its attack.

it could be a fabricated, so-called terrorist bombing inside russia, a staged drone strike against civilians, or a fake -- even a real -- attack using chemical weapons. >> before any attack, we should expect to see cyber attacks, false flag activities, and a number of other things, increasing rhetoric in the information space. and we're beginning to see more and more of that. >> in fact there was shell fire today that hit a kindergarten facility in the eastern ukraine region of donbas. a kindergarten facility. was it a provocation? was it an accident? frankly, it's unclear. ukraine and russia-backed separatists are trading accusations about that very shelling. two shells landed on the school. thankfully no children were in the room when they hit, thank god. but three people who work in the school were injured and power

was knocked out in the village. ukraine's president is calling it, indeed, a, quote, provocation. while the u.s. is gathering details, our defense secretary says, quote, we've said for some time that the russians might do something like this in order to justify a military conflict. so, we'll be watching this very closely. another concerning move? russia expelled our second most senior diplomat in moscow without any justification in what the state department is now calling an escalatory step. so, these tensions, they aren't easing, shall we say. though, the drum beat of war seems to be growing louder and louder, the u.s. is still holding out hope that russia will change its course and abandon the path of war and choose a different path. that, according to secretary blinken, who addressed the u.n. security council today. and despite all of the danger, despite all the threats the

people of ukraine, it's pretty remarkable the streets in the capital kyiv still appear to be relatively calm. so, have ukrainians developed a resistance to russia's aggression, the omni presence since the 2014 invasion of crimea? what is the scene like there tonight? let's go to cnn's matthew chance who is in kyiv to give us the latest. matthew, what are you seeing out there? it sounds like there is relative calm. but that sounds deceptive in some respects. what are you seeing? >> reporter: relative calm, particularly when you consider the warnings that are coming thick and fast now from the united states and others that, you know, this country should brace itself, essentially for an onslaught by russian forces. we've spoken to ukrainian officials tonight, and they've said, look, you know, we've been briefed on the u.s. intelligence, warning there could be a russian attack, if not an outright invasion within the next several days. and that's exactly the same kind

of messaging in private that of course president biden, u.s. secretary of state antony blinken are saying in public as well. so, it gives us this indication that some kind of strategic decision has been taken in the united states. not just to share u.s. intel privately but to go out there publicly and say it as well in the hope to front the russians and deter them from taking action. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenski has been on the front lines today meeting with ukrainian forces. that as tensions rise between the eukrainian military and russian-backed rebels in that region in the east of the country that have been at war for the past eight years, with both sides accusing one another of firing artillery shells into residential areas. you spoke about that kindergarten -- >> and matthew -- >> -- amazingly no children were injured there. >> that is amazing. i want to ask you about that

notion. tell me more about this region where that kindergarten wilding was struck. i can't reiterate enough not a child was injured. you see from the pictures of what could have been. toys strewn about, soccer balls, bricks. this could have been an absolute tragedy. what is this region like where it was actually shelled? >> reporter: yeah, i mean, it could have been a tragedy. but remember there are 14,000 people that have died in that region because of this kind of action on both sides of the front line, in fact. over the course of the past 18 years. so, it's a region that has become tragically very used to the idea that people get killed on a weekly, if not a daily basis. it's a lot calmer than it has been in the past, but we're seeing a huge up-surge in cease fire violations within the past couple of days according to international monitors there. and i've got video tonight from the ukrainian defense ministry

showing the aftermath of burning bilgd, of more suspected rebel shelling that was blamed on russian backed rebels, into those residential areas near that front line that divides government forces from russian-backed rebels in the east of the country, laura. >> matthew chance in ukraine, thank you for bringing us what we need to know. i appreciate it. i'm joined now by two men who know the players and have lived the reality between russia and ukraine, former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, william taylor, and senior defense of the russian federation. gentlemen, i'm glad both of you are here tonight. there's so much to unpack. and again there's a lot of uncertainty a lot of things developing. it's hard to fit in everything we need to know within the confines of that uncertainty. you were there at the time in 2014 where there was the initial invasion. tell me a little bit about what you're seeing now in terms of the comparisons.

should there be the same level of heightened awareness from the u.s.'s part? >> good evening, laura, to you and your listeners, viewing audience. 2014 was, in the beginning, very opaque. it was very -- fog of peace turning into fog of gray zone conflict to conflict in donbas. it was -- we didn't know what was going on. the deception was mind boggling. and the narrative inside russian media talking about ukraine being a proto-fascist state, oppressing, if you will, donbas, talking about the problems and the persecution of the russian ethnic population to the point where if i were a coal miner in the urals, i want to drop by

jackhammer, pick up a -- and volunteer for these different groups going into donbas. so, all of that rhetoric is coming back. and what worries me is as if the narrative, they're prepping, in many ways, the population. they are certainly creating the atmosphere inside russia to just -- they need to justify an attack if they go. and i'm not sure if they've made that final decision yet. a lot will be based on what zelenski and ukraine does and how they perceive nato and the west. >> ambassador, you were the ambassador to ukraine, and one of the big questions so many people have when you think about -- you know, until recently, there seemed to be a real distinction between the level of alarm that was being sounded by our commander in chief, the president of the united states, and what was being spoken by the president of ukraine. now, you've had some interactions in recent times that suggest that there's not really that much of a discrepancy any longer, and give a lot of credit to the ukrainian

president for what he's doing? >> lieu rah, i give a lot of credit to the ukrainian president. he's been in office for two years. president putin has been in office for 22 years. he's a kgb operative. the ukrainian president is staring down president putin. he is holding on, and he's standing up, and he's not giving in to this pressure of all these troops on the border. >> is that surprising? because of course we've known his comment in recent times. and putin doesn't seem to convey a degree of respect for this ukrainian president as we've seen. >> he's got more respect now, laura. he's got more respect now. i bet president putin is surprised president zelenski hasn't blinked, hasn't looked for a way out of this due to all this military force on his border. president zelenski is holding firm. >> if we can tricep to get into

the mind of president putin, and this is a difficult thing. this is a diplomatic issue obviously still. there's a lot of strategy at play and it's hard to read these tea leaves. you were the aat that shay to the russian federation. i would love to figure out, is this an example of putin the provocateur, or putin the determined? which is it, do you think? >> i think it -- this is turning increasingly into a game of poker. he will not back down. you think that -- and is doubling down. and that is part of the enhanced, if you will, forced array in belarus and out in the black sea. i think that there's an aspect that they've now moved to brinksmanship, laura, of the type that is coercive, cold blooded, and so 1930s-ish.

and it could spin into a conflict frankly nobody wants. but now you get pride and hubris and ego that takes over rational thinking and even rational advice. and yes, president vladimir putin is the ultimate decision maker for the russian federation without a doubt. >> so, what he says will ultimately go. >> right. >> are you surprised. you mentioned the notion of the ukrainian president standing his ground on behalf of the ukrainian people. are you surprised -- is putin surprised that nato hasn't stepped in in a more decisive way, even know obviously ukraine is not a ukraine member. but this seems to be obviously the core of the issue, at least in part. >> laura, i think what surprises putin about nato is its coherence. >> interesting. >> it is holding together. these european countries sometimes don't hold together. but they're all pulling in the same direction. i give president biden's administration a lot of credit

for this diplomatic effort to hold the nato allies, not just nato allies, europeans. not just europe, but we're talking about japan and australia. it's a major diplomatic feat. and so far they're holding firm. >> well, the thought -- and you heard blinken say today, that the idea of still hoping and holding out for diplomacy, which of course is always the ultimate goal. but is it a fool's errand when you're talking about the buck stopping with vladimir putin and we've got the emotional aspects and his thoughts around ukraine. can you both speak to this issue? i'll ask you, brigadier general, i don't want people to have the impression that the ukrainian people are somehow apathetic to the presence of russian forces because they have been so ubiquitous and pervasive for so long. what do you attribute the idea of this seeming calm? is it about trying not to have tempers flare or panic and run mentality or is it because they don't know what's going to happen and they need to just

wait? >> my instinct here is as if the -- the -- the population, it's sort of a pensiveness now. i think it's dawn. this has gotten really serious, maybe a stoicness, a quiet determination among the overwhelming bulk of ukrainians that weren't anti-russian. but they've become really pro-ukrainian. and this is something, i think, that has jolted the kremlin. the other point, getting at your point and the ambassador's is that, yes, i believe that ukraine backstopped by a lot of western support -- yeah, it doesn't mean boots on the ground. but it's virtually everything else. it has put russia now, the kremlin, on the edge of a precipice. they know they can go. they could gain a lot. but the long game is a disaster

for them, and they know it. and this is where they are right now, i believe. >> long game is a disaster. and the short game. is it a chance that putin might take? >> i think putin's going to look for a way out, laura. i think that the price that he paid, the cost that is going to be weighed on him from the sanctions from frankly dead russian soldiers coming back to villages where they have to bury them, with parents, mothers, and fathers, angry about why they are sacrificing their sons to invade their neighbor, their friendly neighbor. i think this is a big problem for president putin, and i think he knows it and i think he'll look for a way out. >> you heard president biden appeal to the russian people as well to make maybe that point and underscore it. gentlemen, thank you so much. ambassador william taylor and pe

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never deal with flakey buyers again vroom bought your car? yeah, they really came through. sell your car entirely online on vroom.com. so, you can probably gauge the former president's legal jeopardy by the arguments his lawyers present in court because in new york today his legal team demanded the state attorney general instead investigate hillary clinton. the former president is a member of a protected class, that it's somehow unconstitutional to investigate the trump organization, and that, quote, the evidence is irrelevant, unquote. at one point, one of trump's lawyers said his client shouldn't sit for a deposition because a grand jury was the proper venue to question the former president while in the

same hearing, another member of his defense team said it would be improper to use a grand jury. left hand, meet your right hand. it should also come as no surprise then that the judge ruled that, quote, donald j. trump is ordered to comply in full, meaning, turn over documents and sit under oath for a deposition. ivanka trump and don jr., they've also been ordered to appear for depositions. let's bring in norm eisen to discuss the arguments of the judge even compared to lewis carol and george or well. it's always an interesting day when literature makes its way into a courthouse in this country. norm eisen, good to see you. >> laura, thanks for having me back. >> you know, this is a pretty big day in the sense that all the times people contemplated whether the former president would sit for a deposition, be answering to a subpoena, especially in light of all that we're seeing right now in the trend of thumbing one's nose at

a subpoena, what do you make of this decision? and how big is this of a deal? >> it is a big deal, laura, because the walls of justice are closing in on donald trump from multiple directions. he's being investigated in congress and in georgia for his big lie about the election. but it turns out that there's another alleged big lie, a financial one, essentially keeping two sets of books. and that's what new york is closing in on. and when you hear these absurd arguments in court and the judge is forced to draw upon literary references, as you know, trump's lawyers were countering that with pulp fiction. and the courts are having none of it. and i think you're going to see trump -- there will likely be an appeal. but trump, ivanka, don jr. are

going to be forced to show up and answer questions or take the fifth. >> on that note, taking the fifth, eric trump was subpoenaed and interviewed by this same new york ag's office, and he actually raised the fifth amendment multiple times. i think it was dozens, if not hundreds of times, in response to questions. that is still an option for either ivanka or don jr. or donald trump. but it's not a viable one when you're talking about the scope of other litigation efforts or prosecution efforts, right? what you do in one context civilly might not be to your benefit in a criminal context, right? >> that's right. the new york ag tish james investigation here is civil. and when you take the fifth amendment in a civil case -- inference can be drawn. that is the fact that you took the fifth amendment can be used against you and can cause you to lose the civil case.

but it also creates issues when donald trump must simultaneously face possible criminal indictment, investigation for example in georgia. congress may make a criminal referral on his behalf. and, you know, it signals -- imagine if it comes to a former president of the united states taking the fifth amendment? that'll be shocking and it will have broader repercussion. >> and of course you can just play the sound bites that show all the times he has spoken himself as a candidate or president and pejoratively vilify people. so, it's interesting notion here. final thought, though, norm, please contextualize for people the impact of may czar this week saying that the last ten years

of things are unreliable. that word, unreliable, if it's said in a criminal courtroom, hold on, this is not getting into evidence. unreliable, we don't have the indicia of credibility. when it comes to a statement like that, what impact might that have on a case like this? >> huge deal that trump's long-time accountants have stepped away, told trump and the world that these financial statements are no longer to be relied upon. and laura, to me, the single most interesting phrase in that letter in which they fired the client -- extremely unusual -- mazar said we have a non-waivable conflict of interest. that means they're preparing to testify about him. they may be testifying against him. they may have claims against him. their work for him may have put

a target on them. so, again, deepening peril for donald trump. i know it takes a very long time for justice to work, but it does feel like it's closing in on his multiple big lies. >> well, we shall see. of course one of the reasons the new york ag was wanting the depositions in testimony was so she could figure out essentially who was responsible for the misstatements as she spoke about it. i wonder how illuminating it will be. norm eisen, thank you as always and nice to see you. >> thanks, laura. ahead, i want to dig into the gop's latest attempts to block one of president biden's judicial nominees, specifically senators josh hawley and ted cruz. if kwour are going to accuse someone of being soft on crime, pretty important to get your facts right. and we have the facts you should know next. for one year of epic adventures... in a new dodge hellcat.... and you don't t even have to quit your day job.

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if you were wondering when the claws were going to come out, here they are. but, no, not mine. those are particular republican senator who tried to imply that nina morrisson, a judicial nominee is undeserving of a lifetime appointment because she believes in criminal justice reform and she had the audacity

to serve as adviser to elected das who elected priorities who decided to -- non-violent crimes. and apparently she's had a hand in getting too many people released from prison. do you know what? that's the absolute truth. they're right. she did get people released from prison, people who never should have been there in the first place because they were innocent. she helped about 30 wrongly convicted people who were ultimately freed from prison or even death row. now, the operative words i just used were "wrongly convicted." you have who wonder in what world could that possibly be disqualifying for a judge or, rather, in whose world? >> i cannot support your nomination, and i will not support the nominations of judges or any other individuals sent to us by this administration who are soft on

crime and soft on criminals. >> i will confess the whole of your record is deeply disturbing. across this country, americans are horrified at skyrocketing crime rates. and all of those are the direct result of the policies you've spent your entire lifetime advocating. >> now, ted cruz, he did acknowledge the invaluable work of the innocence project, where she worked. but in a backhanded turn, he tried to intimate that morrisson's advocacy of so-called prosecutors meant she didn't care about innocent victims, an attack the nominee, frankly, admirably defended herself against. >> you're the head of the innocence project. the innocence project does good work for people wrongfully convicted. they should be released. but do you care about the innocent people who are murdered because you keep advising people to put policies in place that result in more innocent people being murdered? >> absolutely, senator. and to clarify my role in those

transition committees were only on the issue of conviction integrity, not the front end prosecution policies but on the review of old cases. that is the limited capacity i worked. i played no role in formulating the front end policies. but it is because when the wrong person is convicted of murder, the person who's committed the crime isn't brought to justice. >> and, again, this is a woman who has spent her entire career dedicated to righting the wrongs of our justice system, by getting, again, innocent people out of prison. so, frankly, it was notable when tom cotton challenged morrisson for casting doubt on the prosecution of ly deli. in that case, the judge denied repeated requests to test the murder weapon right up until the eve of lee's execution. four years after he was put to

death, it was revealed a different man's dmanna was actuy found on the murder weapon. >> convicted by a jury and sentenced to death based on eyewitness testimony. do you believe that li deli committed the rains and murders he was accused of committing. >> an eyewitness references the single leading proven cause of wrongful convictions. >> if these gop attacks seem unfitting, it's because the facts don't back up their accusations. in fact, as republicans accuse the biden administration of being soft on crime, the record actually shows that both the federal prison population and police funding have actually expanded under president biden's watch. frankly much to the chagrin of his democratic supporters. yes, violent crimes and violent crime rates, they are on the rise. and several major cities saw record homicide rates just last

year, as the nation's homicide rate saw its biggest single year jump since the 1960s. and i completely agree, all of this is extremely concerning. but we have to put this into context. overall crime rates, including national homicide rates, are well below where they were in the '80s or even in the '90s. and while there's no single explanation for this current rise, experts say there's a lot more to consider here than what republicans want to blame it on. it's not just a matter of policy. experts point to the pandemic, frankly, as a major factor, as upended every aspect of our lives. you can consider that or not. couple that with the sale of firearms in the mid 2020s, and soaring above predictions by about 3 million. research has shown where there are more guns, there are more shootings. and we can't forget how all of this played out in the midst of

a national reckoning that may have led some officers, police officers, pulling back from their duties. now, all of this is to say that republican attempts to link morrisson's record and her work to the rise in crime, it just isn't rooted in the facts or the principles. it appears to be rooted almost entirely in political opportunity. and frankly, it has me wondering that it may be a preview of what's to come with respect to at least one perspective supreme court nominee. you know, of the qualified black women on president biden's short list for supreme court nominee, at least one, circuit judge ketanji brown jackson, was a federal prosecutor. could it be that the attempts to capitalize on public sentiments that tries to link these policies to high crime rates, an attempt to maybe ride that wave to dilute the credibility of such nominees, maybe just see if

the spaghetti sticks to the wall before the name of the nominee the posted to it. we're going to return to a man who has stood in both sets of shoes, as a federal prosecutor and as the former director of the wisconsin innocence project. he knows this nominee, nina mother rhysson, personally. what does he thinks is really motivating these ak vaccccinatis next. a landscscaper. a hunter. because you didn't settle for o ordinary. same goes for your equipment. versatile, powerful, durable kubota equipment. more goes into it. so you get more out of it.

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. so, here's the question. if republicans are truly the tough on crime, party of law and order, as of course you even heard recently senator mitch mcconnell speak about emphatically, shouldn't they be for nina morrison? the innocence project attorney's project assures that the wrongfully convicted -- then again this is what you get when politics are at play and you try to use it to make sense of the nonsensical. personally. steven wright. it's good to see you particularly in this time like this. first of all speak to me about what these units are -- >> yeah, so part of what was problematic about the hearing that's not been her huge contribution to the law. instead what she does is she works with prosecutors to prevent and to review questionable convictions. and one of the biggest contributions she's had she's helped a lot of places establish what are called conviction integrity units. and all that is, it's an in-house team in prosecutor's office that's really dedicated

to making sure there are no more innocent people put into jail and to also find ways to help and to release and exonerate those individuals who have been wrongfully convicted. >> that doesn't sound like soft on crime. that sounds like making sure that the right person is held to account for a crime. and if the wrong person's in prison, don't we want them out to make sure that, well, as it said, convictions actually have integrity? so, what do you think is actually behind this? that doesn't make logical sense they would want to attack her for that. it seems nonsensical. what is the undercurrent in your mind as to why they are attacking her in this way? >> so, when i talk to people, especially in my home state of wisconsin, they are sincerely concerned about the rise in crime. thigh see the crime statistics, but see the smash and grabs and things like you've seen in san francisco and los angeles. and they are jaw dropping. and so people, i think, are generally talking about crime in

general and they want those type of things to stop. i think the republicans on the committee, however are trying to pin those crime rate increases and the smash and grabs on the biden administration. and there's really no real reason for them to do it. they're making it political, even though the biden administration has been pretty good with trying to help states and local governments actually prevent crime and to stop the type of things you've been seeing on television. >> and to be clear, the kind of work the innocence project would have done with conviction integrity and the like, we're not talking about -- and i don't mean to minimize the smash and grab -- we're talking about very serious crimes in which the wrong person has been convicted, which means that the right person, the one who did the crime is out and about which could be more terrorizing to a community that doesn't even know that person hasn't been held to account. when you look at this, the overall notion, lifetime tenure, what would be the value in your mind having this person or someone with this particular background and career as a member of the federal bench?

>> you know, the senators are right about one thing, federal judges hold a great deal of influence on how the shape of individual prosecutions go. so, having someone who is familiar with the causes of wrongful conviction, someone who is not only an expert on the policy of it but the constitutional basis of so many of the protections we enjoy, things that can help prevent, say, prosecutorial misconduct or misidentifications, two of the leading causes of wrongful conviction. having a judge who's an expert in those type of things, who can help scrutinize the case and help achieve justice is very important. i should also make a special note that, you know, individuals like nina help solve crimes. we know that about of the -- all the commonexonerations proven u dman -- we're usually talking

about sexual assault, but not always. we've been able to identify the real perpetrator in about half of those crimes. i know from my own experience representing an individual who was wrongfully convicted for a sexual assault that the true perpetrator was actually a serial rapist who committed many, many crimes and was not caught. he was able to perpetrate a series of sexual assaults over the years because the wrong person went to jail for one of his attacks. >> in other words, whose who do this work are not soft on crime. they're helping to pursue justice, which i think has a very fundamental role on the bench. steven wright, thank you so much. i appreciate hearing from your expertise. we'll be right back. bug spray and my sunscreen. you ready toto go fishing? i got the bait. i also earn 5% on travel purchased ththrough chase on this rental car. that lake is calling my name! don't you get seasick? we'll find out! come on. and i earn 3% on dining including takeout. so much for catching our dinner. some people are hunters. some are gatherers. i'm a diner. pow!

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described as her disastrous program. the russian team went from first in the expected gold medal winner to fourth after a series of falls costing her the chance at even meddling at an event that many pegged her overwhelmingly to win. instead it was her teammates who took gold and her teammates who took silver, while japan took bronze. my next guest was actually there in the beijing arena to see valiyeva's performance describing what she saw play out as heart breaking. christine brennen is a cnn sports analyst and usa today columnist and has been at every olympics i can think of, and with her presence there reporting so invaluable. christine, what happened when you were there? participate the picture for us. >> reporter: laura, it was incredibly troubling, one of the worst nights i've ever at an

olympic games. it seemed so wrong, frankly. a 15-year-old everyone knows in the midst of this huge scandal, doping scandal and the weight of the world just came crashing down on her shoulders. you could feel she should not be at the olympics, she should have been banned for using a performance enhancing drug, and i think you can also feel incredible sympathy for kamila valiyeva and what she's been through. >> i think you're right both things can be true because we are seeing absolutely a 15-year-old girl who many believe may have been exploited in some way or the idea of not being able to have the benefit to even have this occur, and it's something i think we have a little bit of sound difficulty with christine, but when you think about all these things and how this looks, look at the images. truly heart breaking to see what happened. and truly really difficult. we lost her signal. we're going to come back to christine brennen in just a moment because i really want to hear her take on that

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we're back talking about what happened to christine valiyeva who is at the center of the doping scandal. we lost the signal for christine brennen. of course the irony being had she actually taken gold there would not have been a medal ceremony because of course she has this still looming doping scandal ahead of her. let's bring in don lemon who's up next of course on "don lemon tonight." and i'd love to get his take on this because it's such an important moment we're seeing over and over again, this idea what has happened to this 15-year-old girl that on the one hand people said, well, she shouldn't have been there in the

first place. and the on the other hand, saying they feel for her, have empathy in what took place in that moment. we've seen time and time again from so many stellar athletes the impact of when they feel like the world is against them, what happens. >> this is the pinnacle. this is the moment that elite athletes train for, and quite frankly, laura, i had a feeling that she might -- >> did you really? >> yeah, the pressure might get to her because it's so much pressure coming to her not only from other olympic officials, other athletes, other countries but also from her own countries and people inside of russia. i know they were propping her up. they had bill boards and state media had glowing things to say about her. but for a 15-year-old that's a lot of pressure. and i did get an opportunity last night to speak with christine brennen and she spoke about that. she said, don, this is the talk of the town at the olympics.

i also spoke with polina edwards, and she talked about the tremendous pressure. so while it is unfair for the other athletes i do feel and i think you'll agree as a mother, it's unfair for a young girl. she's not giving herself these drugs. she just wants to perform and do her best, but she has all these adults around her that are basically enablers and also creating this beyond pressure situation for her. >> you know, you really can't separate the fact there's an elephant in the room. we're not talking about just the average 15-year-old. we're talking about one who is understand the banner of country that's not allowed to compete under its own name because of the doping scandals, because of the way in which they've been accused time and time again of putting their thumbs on the scale, being essentially

dismissive of the rules. and i often wonder this, was there a choice when she was between a rock and a hard place, either you can compete at the highest levels with the integrity that's required or you do what is expected. we don't know all the answers yet, but we do know just imagine what it was like when she's sitting there having lost, fallen multiple times, to have them rollout the carpet for the awards ceremony because they know as long as she doesn't place they can actually have a medal ceremony. >> a return to normal. >> yeah, a return to normal. and i heard i think adele was playing in the background, we could have had it all. and her coach was saying something along the lines of explain this to me. that's the looming question for everyone, right, explain this all to me, don. >> look, i think it's easily explainable. she had a lot of people pushing her. and 15-year-old, there was some talk as you know raising the age