this presidents' day weekend, cnn is premiering a new original series on the life and presidency of lyndon johnson from passing historic legislation like the civil rights act and the voting rights act to navigating war and conflicts both in the u.s. and abroad. the new series explores it all. ♪ >> lbj was intensely aware that he came into the office under the cloak of tragedy. >> it drove him to try to do things no one else had ever achieved. >> he said to his aides, what the hell's the presidency for if you're not going to do something bold, why be here? >> i think lyndon johnson would be seen today as one of our greatest presidents because of all that he did. but he made one bad mistake. >> vietnam really pulled him apart. he couldn't make a win out of this no matter how hard he

tried. >> lbj said, i wish they knew that i want peace as much as they do. >> it's important to reflect and look back and see what has been done because there's no better way to judge the future than by the past. >> lbj, triumph and tragedy. premieres sunday night at 9:00 on cnn. >> the news continues so let's hand it over to laura coates and "cnn tonight." >> do you get to go to sleep now? i see you every 12 hours, it seems. every 12 to 15 hours. >> fingers crossed. have a great weekend. >> you too. thank you. i'm laura coates. this is "cnn tonight." at this hour, the situation on the ground in ukraine is fluid, and it's changing rapidly. joe biden speaking once again as commander in chief, saying vladimir putin has already chosen war. >> we have reason to believe the russian forces are planning to and intend to attack ukraine in

the coming week, the coming days. we believe that they will target ukraine's capital, kyiv, a city of 2.8 million people. as of this moment, i'm convinced he's made the decision. >> 2.8 million people. let's dive into what we know, at least right now. it is, again, very fluid. but russia's approximately 190,000 troops are poised on three sides of ukraine. by the way, that's 90,000 more than just three weeks ago. every day this week, we've reported more and more numbers. and now new tonight, satellite images show a buildup of russia helicopters now near the border. that's in addition to medical equipment the pentagon says is in place to deal with casualties. it's images like these that make the military brass so confident. >> i don't believe it's a bluff. i think it's a -- i think he's assembled the right kind -- the kinds of things that you would need to conduct a successful

invasion. >> it's not just what's in place. it's what's already, and we're already seeing take place on the ground and how it fits with frankly the russia playbook. first the white house now blames russia for a massive cyberattack. ukrainian banks were hit this week. finances were hit this week. it's a move the pentagon warned could actually be but a first step. >> it's a piece of the russian playbook to -- to lay down a foundation for these military actions with cyber operations. >> we also saw a vehicle explode in the city of donetsk. the state department calls it a false flag operation. the fear is something like this might be used as a pretext to invade. >> russia plans to manufacture a pretext for its attack.

>> and we've seen renewed shelling in the donbas region. the area is technically under a cease-fire agreement and has been a key focus of the russian misinformation machine. >> russia relies on misinformation and disinformation. it could involve claims about ukrainian military activity in the donbas. >> now we've seen forecasts of military action by russia fail to pan out this week. that's true, and at least so far. but it's important to keep track of where things actually stand on the ground, particularly with fluid occurrences like this. so for that we turn to matthew chance in kyiv, a city that's home to more people, by the way, than the city of chicago and one the president of the united states now calls a target. matthew, how are you, and how are ukrainian officials now responding to president biden's comments? >> reporter: well, it's a good question, laura. actually, they're not responding as, you know, sort of, you know,

starkly as you might expect them to because i think there's a sense in which even though -- i think they're a bit shocked ac act actually. even though there are tens of thousands of troops that have gathered from the russian side close to ukraine's borders, the ukrainians still, even after president biden's latest remarks, which are pretty stunning, are still not entirely convinced that president putin of russia has made that decision to go in. president biden said that he's convinced that putin has decided to invade. i su i spoke to ukrainian officials earlier tonight, and they said it's impossible to say with certainty the thoughts going on with the russian leader. they want to focus on that diplomacy is still a possibility. that's the option they say they intend to pursue. there's also been reaction tonight within the past few minutes, in fact, from the kremlin, or at least from the russian foreign ministry because

the foreign ministry spokesperson said this. the american president's repeated this unsubstantiated thesis about russia attempting to attack ukraine and threatening moscow with sanctions in the event of escalation. the russian federation categorically denies such statements and escalation plans attributed to it. in other words, they're saying, we're not going to invade. so it is really from our point of view here and from the ukrainian government's point of view, quite extraordinary to see that president biden has gone really all in at this point in saying that there will be a russian invasion within the next few days and appealing to russia really sort of not to take that final step. >> i mean, matthew, it's kind of a tale of from russia's perspective, of us looking at russia, who are you going to believe? me or your lying eyes, right? you're talking about the buildup. you see the presence. certainly people are aware that satellite imagery is going to be able to confirm and substantiate

a presence of military forces, an increase in the amassing of troops. so i wonder if from that disconnect, on the one hand, i understand there is not the complete accord in terms of what is being presented by the ukrainian president and our own commander in chief. but it's almost like intimating that somehow perhaps the intelligence might be wrong. is that what they're suggesting, or are they just trying to essentially not stir panic? what do you think? >> reporter: i just think that no one ever said or believed that russia didn't present a credible threat. obviously it has tens of thousands of troops on the border. >> right. >> reporter: it's made no secret about that. it says they're there for drills, but it's always been the intent, what putin intends to do, and that's always been, up until tonight, something that the united states and others have said we just can't tell because he hasn't said what he intends to do. is he really going to invade, or does he just want some kind of diplomatic compromise that he can take and declare a victory? tonight the u.s. president,

remember, said he was convinced that president putin had decided within the next few days to invade this country. you point to this city of 2.8 million people as the capital city that, according to his intelligence, will come under russian attack. >> it's very scary, the prospects. matthew chance in ukraine, thank you so much. well, you know, the u.s. intel agencies have so far called russia's moves before they've even happened. as matthew just explained, the only thing we haven't been able to predict is, well, when the russians would cross the border. so with that in mind, i'm joined by two men who know the situation better than just about anyone. former u.s. ambassador to ukraine william taylor, and former european affairs director for the national security council, lieutenant colonel alexander vindman. gentlemen, i'm so glad that you're both here. thank you. let me start with you in terms of how this works, lieutenant vindman, because so often as we're hearing about, there seems to be this disconnect of sorts.

maybe that's not even the right word, but there's a difference of perhaps opinion about the urgency or imminence of a threat that russia poses. you know, you know this country quite well and the military tactics of it. do you think the united states is getting ahead of its skis and ringing the alarm, or do you think that putin is now more than a provocateur at this point? >> well, it's interesting. i think there are actually three sides to this story. there's the u.s. side and the massive, enormous amount of data and evidence that the president had to consume to make the judgment that the russians have made the decision, that vladimir putin has made the decision and an attack is coming in the next couple days. that is coming not just from satellite intelligence. we have a powerful all-source analysis capability. we have signals intelligence that has surely picked up the communications between different echelons of military commands saying that the execution order has been given, move into

assault positions, get ready to act. probably the communications between the security services. then you have the russian side which says, look, there's nothing to see here. this is just another exercise. although they've never done anything like this before, never assembled this much force on the border of ukraine, never conducted an exercise that would incorporate all these assets, and now they're building the case for it. these false flags emerging out of eastern ukraine about some sort of ukrainian offensive. and unfortunately you have a third side. you have the ukrainian side. and i think to me, it seems clear that vladimir -- not -- volodymyr zelensky has his head in the sand. he has seen the same kind of intelligence. he's been talked to by numerous people about what's likely to unfold. he knows what kind of forces are arrayed, but he chooses to interpret the information in a way that suggests that the russians are merely bluffing. it's about a diplomatic coercion, and that has been an enormous disservice to his

country. for weeks now, he should have been preparing his country. he should have been calling up the reserves. he should have made sure that his forces were digging in, preparing for combat against russians, demolition for bridges, obstacles, mine fields, everything moving into place for what's going to be a withering attack. unfortunately this might be the fact that president zelensky, his background is as a comedian. he was untested, and this is the biggest test of all. and he very well looks like he's failing to meet the challenges. >> ambassador, do you agree with that assessment? i mean is his head in the sand, or is it a cooler head that's prevailing in terms of thinking about this strategically? you have spoken to that president recently, and i think you had a very complimentary view of how he was approaching this and give him a lot of credit. does it strike you that the lieutenant colonel is more accurate now? >> it doesn't. i did meet with president zelensky about two weeks ago. we had a good conversation on this very topic, laura, and

you're right. there are two messages that need to be presented. one is the urgency that president biden has made, and it suggests there needs to be good preparation and accurate and full preparation, and that's going on. there's another message that needs to be presented, and that's what you hear from president zelensky, which is a calm determination, a resolute force that is not going to give. president zelensky -- alex is right. president zelensky is not an experienced politician. he's had two years in the job. he's facing vladimir putin, who has 22 years in the job and a former kgb operative, and president zelensky is staring him down, laura. president zelensky is calm and resolute and is not giving in to the pressure that is on his borders. and president biden is right with him. so there are two messages, and

one is you need to get prepared, and the other message is stay calm and stare him down. >> well, you know, on that point, i mean as you mentioned, the idea of the united states and of course you've got the backing of nato even though they're not a member of nato. it strikes me as a bit easier, per se, to stand your ground knowing that the american president, commander in chief, is willing to carry the torch to some extent. on this point, lieutenant colonel, i wonder if your assessment -- i mean the idea of being critical of zelensky, i understand, and you were very articulate and thorough in why you addressed it. but there's also the notion that there has been a ubiquitous and constant presence of russian forces along this border. the idea that perhaps they've been lulled into a false sense of security or, in fact, that they've been lulled into really an accurate sense of security that these bluffs have not carried out at least in some years. to the extent that if you were to extend the benefit of the doubt to the tactic and strategy of zelensky, do you think ukraine now has the ability and

time, if russia were to invade, to now no longer be flat footed in the way you described? >> definitely not. and frankly i have given president zelensky the benefit of the doubt. i've been, i guess, internally critical about the way he's managed this situation. i was concerned about the fact that he was -- i certainly understood the need to keep calm, keep the population calm, keep the markets from becoming skittish. that all is completely valid. but then there should be commensurate preparations on the ground, behind the scenes by the military. and the people that i'm speaking to, the people that would know about this, are saying that these preparations are not occurring. and that, to me, is deeply disturbing. that, to me, seems to suggest he's arresting the kinds of preparations that his military believes are necessary to prepare for a russian invasion. and we're facing a situation where, you know, if and when russia attacks, now it's all but

certain, we'll just take president biden's word for it. he's probably not going to be the president for much longer. there's going to be a new leader that the russians are going to attempt to put in place, and then we're living in a whole different world. at this point it's -- i think it's shortsighted to think about president zelensky beyond the horizon of a couple weeks if this offensive occurs. >> ambassador bill taylor, lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, you've described about six different scenarios. i won zerder what will actually occur. i guess it comes down to one opinion, that of vladimir putin. gentlemen, thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up, an explosive and tearful day as the former police officer who shot and killed daunte wright learned her fate. >> i'm so sorry that i hurt you so badly. >> today the justice system murdered him all over again.

>> is a two-year sentence justice served? even the judge grew emotional as she explained her own sentencing decision. we'll go through it, and minnesota attorney general keith ellison will join me live. that's ahead. i use liberty mutual, they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪

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a police officer who is supposed to serve and protect took so much away from us. she took our baby boy with a single gunshot through his heart. how much time is my son's life worth? >> it was a final plea from daunte wright's mother as she urged a judge to impose the maximum sentence against the officer who killed her 20-year-old son last year after mistaking her gun for a taser. kim potter was sentenced to just two years in prison, far less than the 7 years and 2 months that prosecutors asked for. and in fact, even though that

was the figure they asked for, even with the two-year sentence, she'll likely only spend two-thirds, or 16 months of that sentence, assuming she demonstrates good behavior. now, the judge, who was notably emotional at times, well, she tried to explain her decision this way. >> this is not a cop found guilty of murder for using his knee to pin down a person for 9:30 as he gasped for air. this is not a cop found guilty of manslaughter for intentionally drawing his firearm. officer potter made a mistake that ended tragically. she never intended to hurt anyone. her conduct cries out for a

sentence significantly below the guidelines. >> the judge was obviously talking about the trials of derek chauvin and another officer, mohamed noor, who was found guilty of shooting his weapon, killing justin russic in minneapolis, who is currently serving time. and she's right. that was a significant departure from the sentencing guidelines in the downward direction. but under minnesota law, you know the maximum penalty for that conviction on two counts of manslaughter, well, you're charged under the highest one of first degree, which was predicated on what's called the reckless handling of a firearm, that notion of her using her gun instead of a taser. well, that maximum is 15 years in prison. now, the state's guidelines actually offer the judge the discretion to sentence somebody like a potter, who had no prior criminal history, which you would expect, of course, from a police officer. but that discretion was really

roughly 6 to 8 1/2 years in prison. and, again, she gave two. before the sentence was actually announced, potter actually stood before the court and even addressed daunte wright's mother directly. >> earlier when you said that i didn't look at you during the trial, i don't believe i had a right to. i didn't even have a right to be in the same room with you. i am so sorry that i hurt you so b badly. i'm devastated for all of you. >> daunte's mother had also mentioned the indignity she felt hearing kim potter only refer to her son as the driver throughout the trial and excoriating her for that and not providing the dignity of her son's name.

now, remember how we got to this moment. a traffic stop for an expired license plate tag and a dangling air freshener from a rearview mirror. and, of course, there was the attempted arrest for an unrelated warrant that would lead potter, a 26-year-old police veteran, to inadvertently, she says, draw her handgun instead of her taser. now, the wright family, they say they feel cheated by today's sentence. >> this is the problem with our justice system today. white women tears trumps -- trumps justice. and i thought my white woman tears would be good enough because they're true and genuine. but when they're coerced, coached, and taught by the defense attorney, i guess we didn't have a win in this at all. >> i feel cheated. i feel hurt because this lady

got a slap on the wrist, and we still every night sitting around crying, waiting on my son to come home. i'm upset. >> we're going to bring in the attorney general of minnesota, who asked this judge to impose a stiffer sentence initially. but now he's urging everyone to accept the decision that she rendered. so where does keith ellison think the fight for justice should go from here? he says he has a lot of ideas, next.

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16 months. that's how much time kim potter will likely spend in prison for the killing of daunte wright. it's nowhere near what minnesota attorney general keith ellison asked for. in fact, his sentencing memo to the judge requested the

presumptive 86 months, or roughly six years, saying, quote, it must always be remembered first and foremost that this case is about the death of daunte wright, a living, breathing, human being who loved and was loved. the presumptive sentence reflects the seriousness of the loss of his life. a.g. keith ellison joins me now. general ellison, nice to see you this evening. you know, i have to say, and of course, as you know, this is our home state. we're both from minnesota, so this hits particularly close to home. i have to ask you, you know, it's one thing when you ask the people to trust in the process and the outcome as a conviction. there is that optimism, a sense of justice being served. and then when a sentence comes out that's quite distinct from what the families wanted, let alone from what the prosecution asked for, what do you say to the public to have them understand that the process is still working? are you confident that it is?

>> well, i think it's important to keep in mind that a jury of her peers did convict kim potter of first-degree and second-degree manslaughter. it is important. i know we're talking about the sentencing tonight, but we could easily lose track of the fact that 12 objective minnesotans looked at the evidence and said that she was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. that's important. now, on the issue of the sentencing, you know, the fact is, is that i would say to everyone that despite how the family legitimately feels, that i think it is important that we accept the sentence, not that we agree with it, not that we endorse it, but that we understand that the court heard both sides, read everything, listened to the -- read the pre-sentence investigation, and rendered a sentence. i don't think it's important that everybody agree with it, but i think it was within the court's discretion to make that

decision, and i would say that rather than look at this as a loss, i think it's important to remember that she will lose, you know, 24 months of her life. that is a substantial sentence. anybody who's ever been to prison or sent somebody there knows that it's nothing to sneeze at. is it what we wanted? no. is it what we thought is appropriate? no. but i think that to throw your hands up and say this is a slap in the face and this is nothing is not true. being confined for two solid years is a serious consequence, and i think that what we need to focus on now is how do we heal? what do we do next? the movement for justice is still ongoing. it doesn't stop us. it doesn't discourage us. it makes us just keep on marching forward, demanding that we have equal justice under the law. >> you know, you've been quite consistent frankly. i remember when the derek chauvin trial and when the

verdict was rendered. you even cautioned people that justice does not come down to a single trial, that it cannot be confined to that moment. you and i are prosecutors. we know full well that oftentimes the community, perhaps even the victim's family don't always agree with the sentencing decisions we've made or the charging decisions, but that and the process sometimes injustice can also occur. but in this instance, i note that the judge here, as you well know, made reference to two other very high-profile cases. so i wonder what you made of that moment because on the one hand, people believed and had optimism that there was accountability. then to compare and contrast to two other high-profile officer cases, did it undermine, in your mind, the way in which people could view the contextual success or pursuit of justice? >> in my view, you have to look at every case as unique because all of the facts are different.

and to bring up those other matters, i'll put it like this. i would not have done it. i think that it is important to remember the unique facts of this case. and, you know, laura, i just want to point out that you should have seen the family at the sentencing hearing. you know, you and i know what allocution is. that's when the victim and the victim's family gets to tell their story, and the wright family was brilliant. they were -- they really gave a true picture of the young man that daunte wright was and could have been. that, in and of itself, is important. and i just want to remind people that, you know, it is important to remember that we did earn a conviction. years ago, officers weren't even held accountable for these kind of things. nobody would have been charged at all. now these kind of things and these cases, you know, there's equal justice for everyone who does this conduct. and, you know, two years is a

substantial sentence. it's not what we asked for, but it's not a slap on the wrist. it is a substantial amount of time, and she will never be a police officer. she will never be able to own a firearm. she will always carry the stigma of being a convicted felon. and, you know, i think that it's important to -- >> wait. i'm sorry. general ellison, if i could cut you off, but i hate to do so. but i keep hearing that word "substantial" sticks in my craw because two years, people are looking at the idea of somebody being killed and the notion of substantial being attributed to two years is not, i don't think, a genuine statement. i understand the notion you're saying and it is still 24 months of time. it is still a conviction. but compared to the prospect of what the guidelines have required and the downward departure, which you and i know does not happen every time. i've been a prosecutor and asked for upward or downward. judges are like, here are the guidelines. i know people take issue with that. but the larger point is this.

you are hoping that in the future, the substantial part of justice will be served by what steps can be taken next and even possibly having a role that kim potter could play in that. what do you mean by that? what role do you see her, even though, again, under minnesota law, wouldn't she still be able to get her retirement benefits, and there's a stigma, but there's still benefits under minnesota law as a public employee. what do you see her role being in the future to help people understand the gravity? >> she can come forward and say, i took the life of a young man who will never go home again, never pick up his son again. i did it because i confused a taser with a firearm. laura, these kind of crimes happen about every other year. you may recall oscar grant was killed in a similar fashion, at least that's what the defendant said. another woman in st. louis was shot. the victim didn't die, but weapons confusion again.

but every other year, there's a fatality at the hands of a law enforcement officer of this kind. i think that if kim potter comes forward and says she's going to be a champion to prevent this so that another family does not suffer, that might be something that is valuable and important. and stepping up and being accountable and apologizing and trying to signal to the entire community how much pain is associated with the loss of someone like danunte wright or any other family member who dies in similar circumstances. let me say this laura. the life and the worth of daunte wright cannot be measured simply by a number of months. the value of that young man's life is infinite. it is infinite, and i just think we ought to keep his memory in mind and then just keep on marching forward in pursuit of this justice that we are going to reach one day. >> attorney general keith ellison, i deeply understand the difficulties of your job, and

somehow threading those needles and balancing so many interests. thank you for taking the time today. all of our thoughts are with that family. >> i read your book, so i know you know. >> well, thank you for reading it. i'm honored that you would take the time. i really can understand and relate. i do hope that one day, imagine if we don't just pursue justice, we actually catch it, attorney general ellison. what a country we'll be then. >> yep. >> thank you so much. >> yep. all right now. take good care. >> thank you. to some brand-new revelations now about how our democracy was saved on january 6th. there is much more to the pressure that was put on former vice president mike pence that frankly hasn't even been told. the tweets that might have played a huge role in stopping a coup attempt, next. (vo) jamaica. (woman) best decision ever. (vo) feel the sand between your toes, and the gentle waves of the sea on your skin. feel the warm jamaican breeze lift your spirits and nourish your soul.

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the right to overturn the election. president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. >> and of course we all knew that, but it took him more than a year to get to that point in time. and apparently it took pence so long, he had to contemplate ways to get advice from other people on this very issue. he sounds confident right there, right? but there were moments that pence did not sound so confident, looking to people to clarify and give him the confidence to say that he, in fact, could not do anything about it. you may have heard he actually asked for people like the former vice president, dan quayle, asking him if there's anything he could do to legally act on the demands from trump to stop these electoral vote certification. but apparently he was truly torn about it. according to woodward and costa's book, peril, pence allegedly told quayle, you don't know the position i'm in. and quayle said back, yes, i do. you have no power to throw out the results. now, even with that shady memo

that was dangled, that eastman memo that was all part of a campaign to try to give him instructions on how to pull off a coup and the forces around him apparently had to then ask yet another person, someone else to give him the mojo and the legal backing and maybe backbone to reject a crackpot scheme. before we tell you about who this new person is that may have had a hand in saving our country, i want to remind people about the way we talk about democracy and peril. it might seem hyperbolic but the truth of the matter is we're finding out day by day just how fragile this democracy was and just how close we came to january 6th and the fact that frankly there may not have been any guardrails in place. and to that end, the idea of in case of emergency, break glass, what if there was truly, truly nothing there? well, listen, i'm going to tell you now about a story that actually happened, and the

notion of somebody who had a hand in really trying to potentially rescue our republic. and guess what? it comes down to a tweet. no, not a tweet from, say, the former president trump, but instead somebody very different. i want you to listen right now and urge you to listen very closely to a former conservative federal judge. his name is michael ludic, on what he calls essentially one of the most significant moments in american history, the unfolding of what happened from this retired judge, it might just knock your socks off to know how fragile things are. >> reporter: vice president mike pence conveyed a calm demeanor when he stood on the senate dais poised to certify the 2020 election win for joe biden. but it had been a turbulent two days behind the scenes and former federal judge michael ludig was at the center of that storm. >> i was first called by the

vice president's outside counsel richard cullen on the evening of january 4th. >> reporter: cullen was calling for lieu dig's help since the former appeals court judge is considered one of the top minds in the legal world. >> that law is an institution separate and apart from politics. >> reporter: luttig learned his former law clerk, john eastman, was advising trump and pence that the vice president had the authority to overturn the election results. >> you can tell the vice president that i said that he has no such authority at all. and richard said, he knows that. we need to do something publicly. get your voice out to the country. >> reporter: judge luttig had just opened a twitter account, and the two men agreed a message online would be the best way to showcase luttig's legal an analysis. >> i understood the gravity of

the moment and the momentous task that i was being asked to help the vice president with. >> reporter: the 67-year-old luttig confirmed with his tech-savvy son on how to use twitter to blast out his lengthy message. >> he says, dad, i don't have time for this, to which i said, you just tell me right now how to get this done, or i'll cut you out of the will, okay? >> reporter: on january 5th, luttig tweeted his legal analysis, which pence then cited in a letter he released, saying, the constitution does not empower the vice president to alter in any way the votes that have been cast either by rejecting certain votes or otherwise. that position prompted trump to go after pence in a since deleted tweet saying, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution. trump had pressured pence multiple times, both in private and in public. >> and mike pence is going to

have to come through for us. and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country. >> reporter: but pence held firm, returning to the capitol after the hours-long siege, officially certifying the election result just before 4:00 a.m. on january 7th. >> the votes for president of the united states are as follows. joseph r. biden jr. of the state of delaware has received 306 votes. donald j. trump of the state of florida has received 232 votes. >> reporter: pence called luttig hours later to thank him. >> and said, judge, this is mike pence. i said to the vice president that it was the highest honor of my life that he had asked me, and i will be grateful to him for the remainder of my life. >> reporter: and judge luttig is now looking to 2024. he's pushing congress to rewrite the electoral count act, to make it clear that the vice president cannot overturn the election

results and to clarify that congress has no power at all to decide the validity of state electors. laura. >> thank you, jessica. what an incredible story. someone who actually knows michael luttig well, guess what? i've got republican election lawyer ben ginsberg and he's next. tion. it listens, learns, adapts and anticipates your every need. with intelligence... that feels anything but artificial. the eqs from mercedes-benz. it's the car electric has been waiting for.

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with you, the party of a lifetime. ♪ ♪ wealth is watching your business grow. worth is watching your employees grow with it. ♪ ♪ man, if a tweet could make a difference, as to whether a legally elected president gets c certified, tell me what does that say about our democracy? cnn legal analyst ben ginsburg joins me now. he has known judge ludwig for more than 40 years and i note, he is still a conservative. he was tapped in this way to be able to give some counsel. but, you know, look, this comes down to the idea of how are we in a situation, where a vice president is scrambling, at the last minute, trying to figure out do i have the power to overturn this in some way or

not? what needs to be done, to really fortify this prospect and make sure it never happens, again? >> well, these were unprecedented times that really stress-tested the whole system. so the electoral count about that this all operates under is a law from the 1880s. if you are watching the gilded age, these days, they talk different back then. and so, it makes sense to modernize, streamline, make the law contemporary. >> and in fact, senator susan collins has a piece out in "the washington post" today and she is spearheading the effort -- a bipartisan effort, i might add -- to try to reform or modernize away from the gilded age electoral count act but this is actually interesting to have bipartisanship in washington, d.c., ben. is one of the reasons because no one quite knows how to game this in a way that they will secure a decisive advantage for their party? >> absolutely. hook. this is a unique law in the sense that you are looking forward, with a lot of unknowables. you don't know who the vice president will be. you don't know what the margins in the congress will be. you don't know how great the

differences will be between candidates in the states, so actually, this is an example -- one of the rare examples -- where it makes sense for both parties to have clear rules in what is a really contentious situation. >> it makes sense for a democracy to have really claear rules, right? especially, going forward. it is unprecedented at one time in 2020 but it can happen again. so in terms of how it is modernized, what are he we talking about? what are the things they are trying to change? is it taking it away completely or looking who has power where and when? >> well certainly, the role of the vice president needs to be clarified. how -- how many members you need to raise an objection to a state's slate is one. but the real difficult issues are how you balance the power between the states, who run and decide, supposed to tally up the votes in the election. congress, which has what really is a ceremonial role of upping up the electoral college slates but suppose something's really wrong in the process.

and then, the federal courts and how much can the courts jump in, at that point, to sort of be the arbiters if there are bad-state actors or sort of inconclusive congressionally is this. >> it goes back to the idea of we -- of a time of in case of emergency, break glass. something something inside of it, right, in case this happens but to be clear, this is not the same thing as abolishing the electoral college, right? >> this is kmeetly different. this is a procedural rule that again, if there are tight contests in the state that result in not a clear winner of the electoral college, how you judge who of the electors. >> the right man i told you, ben ginsburg, thank you so much for clarifyingful we will be right back. ♪ what a wonderful world ♪

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