price for their. president biden and those o others, have we not learned our lesson? thank you for listening. "gps" continues next. this is "gps," the "global public square." welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from washington, d.c. on the program today, it is day 11 of putin's invasion of ukraine. the attacks on that country's people and its cities are escalating. i will ask ukraine's foreign minister about his nation's urgent request for a no-fly zone

and nato's denial of that plea. also, putin and his cronies have quashed almost all that was left of the free press in russia. i will talk to a journalist whose station was forced to shut down this week. and are sanctions working? i will ask the former secretary of the treasury, larry summers. but first, here is my take. the battle has been joined, now all that remains to be seen is who will win. vladimir putin's naked aggression against ukraine has triggered almost universal condemnation. last week's vote in the u.n. general assembly to denounce the invasion was 141-5 with 35 countries abstaining. president biden has rallied not just the west, but much of the world. he has announced sanctions that are more far reaching than any ever inflicted on a major economy. the results are already evident. russia's stock market and the ruble are in tatters, but

despite all this, economic sanctions have rarely forced a country to reverse path, let alone cause regime change. in the few cases where they do appear to have had some effect, south africa with apartheid, iran with its nuclear enrichment, sanctions were usually widely enforced and comprehensive. because key countries like china, india, the gulf states are unlikely to boycott russia, they will lack that long-term bite. there is one path to changing putin's calculus, sanction ing russia's oil and gas industry. this is vladimir putin's golden goose, the source of the state's wealth and the reason he might believe that he can weather any storm. so far not only have these been left untouched, but the financial sanctions have been carefully designed to allow russia room to continue to sell energy to the world. the conventional wisdom is that the western world cannot sanction russian energy because

it will trigger an energy crisis along the lines of the 1970s which would cause deep discontent at home, but the situation is not analogous to the 1970s at all. today the united states is the largest producer of oil and gas in the world, it can ramp up production and exports and help turn on spigot in other countries. joe biden is worried that he's going to look like jimmy carter when his power position is actually more like that of the king of saudi arabia. president biden should announce that he is going to respond to this massive challenge to the international order by expediting as much production and export of american petroleum as possible to replace russian energy. with natural gas he should urge his regulators to facilitate production and he should help more with the financing of liquefied natural gas so that it can be sent to europe quickly. he should also encourage countries like japan and south

korea to divert more of their lng to europe, they have alternative energy sources. some of this will take time to happen, but markets will react to the signals and to new supplies and prices will fall. but this will not be enough. president biden should also help to unlock two large sources of oil that are currently not getting to the market fast enough or in sufficient quantities. he should suspend donald trump's sanctions on venezuela and iran. if possible, washington should work with iran to close the few remaining gaps and reenter the nuclear deal which would bring all of iran's oil back on the market. and biden should personally reach out to mohammed bin salman of saudi arabia and the uae, both of whom feel unloved by washington these days, patch up relations with them and ask them to ramp up production, which the gulf states can best do in the short term.

i can hear all the objections from right and left. let me address a few. much of this oil and gas will simply substitute for banned russian energy, so it's unlikely to cause net higher emissions. there is even an environmental benefit. u.s. gas leaks less methane than russian gas and u.s. oil production is also less environmentally harmful than russian production. in many places the increase in natural gas would mean countries like germany could use less coal or dirtier fuel in nearly every way. in fact, the best way to cut carbon emissions in the short term with current technologies and at scale is to replace coal with natural gas. all of these measures have down sides, some symbolic, some real, but to govern is to choose and to govern in a crisis is to make hard painful choices. the country that has best understood this is germany, it

has suspended its nord stream 2 gas pipeline, announced plans to build two new terminals to convert lng into gas and acknowledged that it might have to use more coal and to extend the life of its nuclear plants that were scheduled to be shuttered. these policies are coming from a coalition government whose second most important partner is the green party, which historically has been tenacious in its environmental goals. the biden administration has said that the stakes could not be higher, and that's right. if putin's aggression succeeds, we will live in a different world, so let us make sure that he does not. when adolf hitler attacked the soviet union winston churchill explained that if hitler invaded hell, he, churchill, would have found something nice to say about the devil. all we must do is take some steps to support all non-russian

energy and that policy shift will become a deadly weapon that strikes at vladimir putin's real achilles' heel. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. ♪ as russian forces continue to assault many of ukraine's cities, a flood are leaving the country for their own safety. the u.s. says more than 1.5 million refugees from ukraine have already fled to neighboring countries. the border patrol says 1 million have come to their country alone.

>> it is almost entirely women and children, and i can't say lviv is any less of a convoy as people have gotten here any way they can, buses, taxis, cars, and many show up on the train from all across the country, and from here i asked many of them why don't they just want to stay in lviv since the city, for the time being at this point, is relatively safe, nothing has been bombed, and they say they simply don't trust that vladimir putin won't come here as well. many of them figured there would be a little bit of fighting around the periphery, but they did not expect anything quite like they're seeing. you don't necessarily have to have bombing down the street, you don't necessarily have to have your own home hit. people here are family, friends,

the city next door, whatever it may be, and they get scared and they run. it seems like every bombing campaign, every round of shelling brings a new wave of people here in lviv. fareed? >> scott, you are also reporting on the negotiations that have been taking place between ukraine and russia, which i want to ask you one part, which is they had agreed to some humanitarian corridors, but none of that seems to have held. why is that? >> yeah, so yelled was the first attempt to have these human corridors that have two cities in particular, mariupol and baja, but things lasted 2.5 hours yesterday before it all fell apart. the russians blamed shelling, and the ukrainians say russia is

pinning them down and not allowing them to escape. there is a serious lack of trust here. they tried again told, but it didn't last, either. at least, in mariupol, it didn't. people were situated in buses to get out of town. when that shelling resumed, according to the ukrainians, the whole operation was called off. the red cross, the international red cross, which is serving as sort of an administrator or intermediary on the ground for these talks, gave both sides a bit of a scolding and said, look, it's not good enough to believe in the need for humanitarian corridors, you actually have to sit down and work out the exact details, the granular details. who is allowed to evacuate? exactly where? exactly when? exactly what the route is? can people lead and can aid come in? all of those details need to be

figured out in fine detail. the red cross says, look, we are here to facilitate these talks ongoing, but we cannot be the policemen of the cease fire. we cannot enforce a cease fire. we have buses and blankets and food. they are in no position to take on two large armies with guns pointed at each other, so they say, look, if there is to be a cease fire in a corridor, it is up to the two parties to facilitate it and to get it done. >> scott, very good reporting. thank you so much. when we come back, i'm going to talk to ukraine's foreign minister and ask him what does he need for his country to survive. alright, so...cordless headphones, you can watch movies through yoyour phone? and y'all got electric cars? yeah. the future is crunk! (laughs) anything else you wanna know? ishe hype too much?

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president zelenskyy has asked for what he wants, a no-fly zone over ukraine. he said if they don't, the people here will die because of you, because of your weakness. i'm here with foreign minister dmytro kuleba. ministe foreign minister kuleba, welcome.

to have action against each other with russians shooting down american planes is too dangerous and could result in an escalation nobody would want. >> well, as we speak, russia planes continue to bomb ukranian civilians, including women and children. it's a disaster here, and we need to protect them. i ask two things. first, close the air space, and second, provide us with planes which we can fly and fight in the air ourselves. unfortunately, we haven't received a full response to either of these questions, which effectively means that our pilots will continue to fight, but they will also be shot down. russia will go to the sky and

that will help raise the cost of this war. >> on that second request, do you have any expectation that you will receive planes, or was that also -- was that request also denied? >> i have expectations on both requests, it's just a matter of time. when it comes to trades, we are sure talks are underway and the solution is close. the problem is that we have no time for talks and solutions. we need them now. as i said, thousands of children have been killed as a result of strikes in the air. vladimir putin uses his air force to bombard cities' critical infrastructure. ukranians are courageous people. we are fighting on the ground.

but our weakest area is the air space, so we need support there. >> what about arms in general? do you have enough javelins, do you have enough stingers? what would you like to get more of? >> well, supplies, so for weapons, you mentioned how to ensure sustainability of these supplies. i assured help that we don't courageously fight on the ground. we've destroyed a lot of russian tanks because they have more, so they throw more and more on your crate, and i think it's not to

support ukraine's willingness and ability to fight by supplying them with all important sanctions against russia. >> let me ask you, you mentioned negotiations. what is the state of any kind of negotiation with the russians? i'm puzzled whether they are at all serious, because president putin keeps talking about what is essentially regime change in ukraine. he keeps referring to president zelenskyy and his government, including people like you as nazis and drug dealers. it does not seem to me that that is a partner with whom he is negotiating seriously. are the negotiations a complete ploy, or can something real come from them? >> indeed, it is absurd to call ukrainians nazis, and our legal

forces do not even make it to the parliament. they are marginalized in ukraine and this is a completely false narrative by president putin. we are very cautious about relations with russia, but there is no trying to find common ground and stop this war by means of diplomacy. the recent experience, though, is that even when talks continue even when talks are being held, its advance into ukraine, we are holding the talks and putting russian attacks on hold. i think you can make your own conclusion from this fact. >> in the talks, are the russian demands what we hear publicly which is, you know, recognize

crimea, recognize all of donbas. demilitarize russia and their demands. >> yes, that's what they want to do in the talks. we have to continue fighting while's also continue fighting, fighting for our land. stay with us. we will be back with ukraine's foreign minister. i'm going to ask the foreign minister what you can do if you want to help ukraine, when we come back. wouldn't be a thing. yeah, dad! i don't want to deal with this. oh, you brought your luggage to the airport. that's adorable. with shipgo shipping your luggage before you fly you'll never have to wait around here again. like ever. that can't be comfortable though. shipgo.com the smart, fast, easy way

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we are back with ukraine's foreign minister dmytro kuleba. foreign minister, you must have seen your counterpart at the european union, the european union's foreign policy chief, suggested that china mediate between russia and ukraine. what do you think of that proposal? >> well, we welcome any attempt to mediate and help us stop this mad war launched by president putin. i spoke myself with the chinese foreign minister, he assured me that china is not interested in this war and is ready to make a contribution to putting an end to it through diplomacy. so we will welcome this effort, however, again, it was president putin who launched this war and it's he who has to stop. ukraine is not making any compromises on the issues of its territorial integrity.

>> is it your sense that the chinese might pressure the russians to acknowledge the territorial integrity of ukraine? >> it's hard to say. chinese diplomacy works according to its own mechanics and i'm not aware of any follow-up between china and moscow after i spoke with the chinese foreign minister and the secretary of state antony blinken spoke with him, but, again, we can only -- we can only count -- the discontent in china is making these efforts to stop the war. >> let me ask you about getting to what people can do if they want to help. you have received a large number of foreign fighters, people volunteering. how large is that number and is it growing?

>> this number is around 20,000 now, they come from many european countries mostly. you know, many people in the world hated russia and what it was doing in recent years, but no one dared to openly oppose and fight them. so when people saw that ukrainians are fighting, that ukrainians are not giving up, many felt motivated to join the fight and to bring russia to an account for many, many things that it has done in recent years in different countries. so the wish to fight is something that we can understand, but most importantly we need sustainable, political, economic and military support coming from as many countries as

possible and we count leadership in this exercise, with special focus on air defense. this is really the key to the price that we are paying for the -- for this war. i have no doubt that we will prevail because we fight for the right cause on the right side of history on our land, but it's a question of costs. if the west -- if the united states and others do not help us to solve the air defense problem the costs will be much, much more higher and we will have a country destructed, destroyed by air raids. we have much -- many more civilians killed. and you know something, every year we -- war never again, in ukraine, europe, north america, if you remember the great war, this is exactly the time when everyone, every politician, has to prove that he or she is able to make difficult but responsible decisions in order

to stop the war and not to say after the war never again. >> let me ask you about another piece of news. shell, the oil company, announced that it was buying russian oil, but that it would -- for its refineries but that it would donate the profit from this oil to some kind of ukrainian cause, they didn't specify what. is that appropriate in your view? what would be the message to shell? >> stop buying russian oil. and this goes not only to shell but also to other companies. some tough measures were imposed in russia but we all know that their biggest revenues come from trade in oil and gas, and today russian oil and gas smells with ukrainian -- smells of ukrainian blood. so instead of donating money to

us, just stop buying it. this is the best thing you can do. and all western companies must withdraw from -- from russia, again, not on commercial or political, but on humanitarian grounds. we were upset to hear that companies like coca-cola and mcdonald's remain in russia and continue providing their products. it's simply against basic principles of morale to continue working in russia and making money there. this money is soaked with ukrainian blood. >> foreign minister, it's a pleasure to have you on. i think we got from you what you would want ordinary people to do, petition their governments on air defenses, on weapons, petition companies not to buy russian oil. you are a brave man and it's an honor to have you on, sir. >> thank you, sir. next on "gps," vladimir

putin and his lawmakers have all but quashed russia's free press. i will talk to a brave russian journalist whose station had to stop broadcasting this week. we will be back in a moment. every business is on a journey. and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you find the right tech solutions. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. if you have advanced non-small cell lung cancer, your first treatment could be a chemo-free combination of two immunotherapies that works differently. it could mean a chance to live longer. opdivo plus yervoy is for adults newly diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer that has spread, tests positive for pd-l1, and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. together, opdivo plus yervoy

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trying to characterize it, what does this look like to average russians? >> they are so different russians -- first of all, thank you so much, fareed, i'm glad to be here with you. there are so many different views and i think that the society in russia is divided terribly. one part of russian society believes the propaganda machine which tells them every day 24/7 shouting from the screens of televisions that russia is under the threat of nato, that nato is right behind the corner and nato rockets are going to, you know, to be on, i don't know -- and someone is coming for vladimir putin who helps people to be free and proud and so on and so forth. but another part of russian society, these people are the viewers of tv rain, these viewers are readers of few

independent media outlets which were shut down just recently during recent days. i want to tell you that after the war was started on 24th of february, we have had the absolutely amazing views, like 24, 25 million views per day only on youtube. it means that there are many people, a lot of people, millions of russians who understand that something terrible is going on and who understand that they need alternative sources of information because they feel that this is a disaster, this is a catastrophe that has come to their homes and the whole world is broken for them, for us, for me personally as well. >> how do russians -- i mean, again, i know i'm asking you big generalizations but how do they feel about ukraine and ukrainians? >> well, historically ukraine has been the closest friend and closest -- i would say even brother or sister of russia,

and, you know, languages are not the same, but they sound similar and, you know, the friendship was real. like the friendship with georgians, for example, with belarusians. this is very divided. you cannot say it -- and you cannot say it in percentage, for example, there is no sociology in russia. dictatorship cannot give you an opportunity to understand how many people do believe the propaganda and how many do believe that ukrainians have to be inside of russia and how many think that ukrainians have their own opportunity and right to decide for themselves. there are a lot of people in russia who understood after the terrible things have started that they need to support ukrainians, that they have the -- to decide that this european way of development is their future and a lot of russians want this future for themselves as well.

i'm getting messages, emails, you know, calls from different viewers of tv rain, different viewers of, you know, my colleagues, of my program, my show and other programs on tv rain saying thank you for doing this and hoping that, you know, we will try to cover this terrible war from anywhere. i don't know from where. >> is vladimir putin secure? are there people within his circle, does the military have any power? could you imagine some situation where people pressure him to change his policies? >> it's hard to say because we cannot be sure about how many people is under strict control of president putin. all we know is that there is a liberal branch, so-called liberal branch, in the administration of the president, in the government as a whole.

people who understand that this is a catastrophe that has come because of one person and his ambitions to, you know -- to grow back, to build back this empire and to, you know, get the whole russian territories back under his power. we don't understand what these people are planning, actually, this liberal branch. what can they do? and is there any opportunity for them to change the situation? we understand that these people are not happy about being isolated from the global world because these people were actually very much used to traveling, to communicating with their american and european partners. these people were used to big money, you know? it's not only ministers or officials, it's also russian oligarchs, businessmen, people from inner circles, friends of vladimir putin they are under sanctions right now and they are not happy with this.

they need to say good-bye to the whole lifestyle that they had. but now vladimir putin has this full disclosure, you know, there is no -- there's no, you know, trying to show himself to the world as a person who may be interested in democracy, as a person who still has some kind of freedoms in russia, as a person who can still be flexible in some ways. there is no flexibility at all. this is the end of russia that we have known before. this is the end of everything that we were used to. this person, vladimir putin, has decided to kill everything, to destroy everything that was free and independent in russian federation. it was not -- it was not a democracy before, you know that, of course, fareed, but now it's like -- i mean, this is not russia anymore. we have never seen anything like that during the history. and i'm sure that someone will fight this, but i don't know whether these people or this person or, i don't know, how

many people would they be successful? it's hard to say. >> very quickly, do you believe that this could be the end for putin in some way? >> well, you know, i will give you an honest answer, i really don't know. i don't understand what's going on inside of kremlin's corridors and offices. the only thing i know is i am not alone here out of the country. i have a lot of brave, interesting, young people around me, my colleagues, my friends, journalists, people who think, people who are ready to fight for the freedom in russia. i'm sorry for this -- this is the truth. we will do everything we can and we are strong, actually. >> ekatarina, what a pleasure to talk to you, it's a wonderful reminder that russia itself is a complex and fascinating country and we should learn more about it. >> thank you very much.

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are you a christian author with a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! the united states, europe and many other countries have blanketed russia with sanctions. targets include putin, foreign minister lavrov, other top officials. and many oligarchs who have been enriched by putin and his policies.

many russian banks have been takin out of s.w.i.f.t. and can no longer complete international transactions. the west has taken a big chunk of putin's rainy day fund at the russian central bank, making it inaccessible. the list goes on. but is it enough? larry summers joins me now. he was the treasury secretary in the clinton administration. larry, looking at the situation and if you think of it in terms of kind of economic war, how are we doing, and what should we do? >> we're winning. we're doing very well. we have inflicted more damage, more quickly with more unity on our side on the russian economy than almost anyone i think would have expected. there's more we can do. there's more that can be done to cut off russian financial institutions and, of course, critically, more that can be done to cut off russian energy

production. and i think we very much need to keep those threats in reserve so as to be able to exercise maximum leverage. now the challenge for us is to bring these early successes to some kind of conclusion. and that's a very dangerous and complex thing, but i think one has to give the biden administration enormous credit for what's been done so far. i think the concept of escalating sanctions over time never firing your last and most brutal bullet so as to maintain leverage is a very good one.

i worry slight -- i worry slightly, fareed, when i hear us protest a bit too vigorously that this isn't going to interfere with gasoline prices too much because i think ultimately, if the price of combating tyranny is a period of much higher gas prices, that's a price we need to be prepared to pay as a country. but i think we'll get there if we need to. >> economic power, economic sanctions rarely have the effect of completely transforming a country's policy, triggering regime change. how should we think about this issue of economic warfare. can it really make putin stop what he seems determined to do, which is take control of all of ukraine? >> i don't know the answer to that.

i don't think anybody knows. it's doing much more damage, much more quickly than we would have expected. and you know, fareed, the other side of what makes this case exceptional is important. russia is a much more deeply integrated economy into the world than cuba ever was or than iran at the time of the hostages was. and that means that sanctions can do much more to disrupt what was otherwise going on than happened. we never thought about doing sanctions to a country that had hundreds of billions of tlrdoll in reserves before, and the ability to basically freeze a central bank with hundreds of billions of dollars of reserves is a kind of leverage that we've never thought about having before. so i'm optimistic that this can

have very important effects. we may find it necessary or desirable to cut off their ability to export oil and natural gas, but i think the approach that biden has followed, which is start with the things that do a lot of damage to them and very little damage to us and over time, escalate, i think that has been the right kind of approach. >> what about the cost to the global economy and the american economy? president biden said in his state of the union that his number one priority was now combating inflation. you've been perhaps more prescient about that inflation than anyone. what is it going to look like if

this -- if things continue as they are? will there be more inflation, and is the biden administration adopting the right strategy to deal with that inflation? >> inflation is a serious problem. this will make it worse. but preserving world order is much more fundamental and much more important than an extra percentage point or extra three percentage points on the cpi over some interval. so let's have our priorities straight. historians 50 years from now might remember the events of this week in ukraine. they will not remember the inflation statistics over the next six months. i'm an economist, but i'm a political economist, and i recognize what's most fundamentally important. >> larry summers, good to have

you on. >> thank you. i want to thank you for being part of my program this week, and i will see you next week.

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at helpfosterchildren.com hello. thank you for joining me. i'm fredricka whitfield. we begin with this breaking news out of ukraine. northwest of kyiv where heavy shelling is forcing residents to flee. three people were reportedly killed at an evacuatiocr