he said our fathers and grandfathers remember this all too well. talking about the 1940s, what happened there. and president biden talking about, when poland joins nato in 1989. that is what brought that into play there. >> so important indeed. we'll is so much of president biden's visit throughout the day on cnn including what the white house is calling a major speech on the humanitarian refugee crisis. our coverage will continue. right now, "smerconish" is coming up. with the conflict raging in ukraine now in its second month, the president on a high-stakes trip in europe. i'm michael smerconish in san francisco. after meeting with ukrainian officials this morning, president biden held a crucial bilateral sitdown with the polish president duda to discuss the allied response in ukraine and the refugee crisis as more

than 2 million ukrainians have fled to poland. he's scheduled to visit with refugees during this hour. we'll bring you that live when it occurs. for the very latest, we go back to cnn chief correspondent kaitlan collins in warsaw. kaitlan this seems to be focused on humanitarian relief. what's about to unfold? >> absolutely. that has really been the focus of the latter half of president biden's time here in europe. meeting with president duda. as you just noted there, poland is really shouldering a lot of the refugee crisis sparked by the invasion of ukraine. president biden said he doesn't think that should be poland's responsibility. the whole world should share in that. saw the steps the united states is taking to help with the refugee crisis. the leaders are struggling to cope with it because they've had a massive influx of refugees. over 2 million people have come into poland since this invasion of ukraine started. obviously, millions more displaced from their homes and the u.s. announcing they'll

accept up to 100,000 ukrainian refugees in the united states. of course, it remains to be seen if 100,000 would like to come to the united states. the white house says they believe, maybe they prefer to stay here in europe. but it still is a huge aspect of this. and it does highlight the human toll that this invasion has caused. michael, i thought one other thing that stood out from president biden as he and the polish president were speaking there was talking about maintaining this clear line of communication between the two of them. obviously, it was just a few weeks ago when the white house was caught off guard after the polish foreign ministry said they were willing to give the united states very used fighter jets to transfer those to ukraine. that was an idea that defense secretary austin sitting next to president biden had said they believed it was not feasible for the united states to facilitate that transfer. obviously, these are all things they were talking about behind the scenes. we should note that comes as they met with top ukrainian officials today.

and president biden is going for the first time on this trip the first time since the invasion started to meet face-to-face some of these very ukrainian refugees that they talked about what this has looked like in the last month since the invasion began. michael. >> there has been speculation that president biden would attempt to see president zelenskyy before heading home. it seems like that's not going to take place. do you now how seriously the white house considered that? >> i think it was something they didn't rule out initially when they abruptly put this trip together. normally, a trip like this would take months to plan. this is something that the white house and.world put together in days. whether or not he's going to meet with zelenskyy is difficult. obviously, it was difficult for zelenskyy to come here to meet president biden given he's not left ukraine just a few days. left and went to the munich security conference. and the idea of sending president biden in ukraine is difficult because it's an active

war zone. and yes, presidents have gone into the active war zones before but there are no members of the united states military there. those are all factors. you diddle hear president biden say yesterday, he wanted to try to go into ukraine. he wanted to see it first hand and up close but indicated for security reasons that is why he did not go into ukraine during this trip. >> kaitlan, thanks so much for the report. we appreciate it. as russia's invasion of ukraine drags on, there are mounting worries about the lack of communication between the united states and russia and it's causing a greater risk of escalation. earlier today, president biden attended a meeting between his secretary of state antony blinken and defense secretary lloyd austin and their urkrainin counterparts but the last time defense second austin is known to have spoken to his russian counterpart was february 18th. and mark milley hasn't spoken to his counterpart since february

11th and they've been trying. here's what pentagon secretary john kirby told wolf blitzer on thursday. >> we have not had a successful attempt to talk to defense minister shou, or general mark milley's counterpart. we tried in the last week or ten days and just haven't been able to reach out to either one of them. >> as "the washington post" recently put it, the radio silence leaves the world two largest nuclear powers in the dark about expectations of military movements and raising fears of a major miscalculation or battlefield accident. joining me now to discuss is retired navy admiral james stavridis who spend four years at nato. he's the co-author of "all too relevant work of fiction "2034." admiral how is this

deconfliction supposed to operate? >> it's supposed to be very simple. you are to be able, as a leader, to almost reach out and pick up the phone and talk to your counterpart. it's not quite that seamless but as supreme commander of the nato, if i wanted to talk to general nicolai makarov, i would say, hey, we really must touch base with this aspect of submarine force, in the arctic, or whatever we wanted to deconflict, michael. i could be on a phone call literally within the hour. i think that's been the norm between u.s. authority, chairman, secretary of defense, over the years, even during the cold war. so, it's very concerning and just to close on this point, people think, perhaps, well, you know, we're not going to get in a war with russia. it won't escalate. you know, how did world war i

start? it starred with an assassin's bullet in a dusty corner of the hungarian empire in 1814. armies and lost control of that lateral escalation by 1918, 20 million dead in europe. it can happen. we need direct communication. >> admiral, if vladimir putin wanted them to pick up the phone, presumably, they would, right? this comes from him? >> you have to assume that putin has said shut down communications, because putin wants to create more angst, more worry, more fear, less certainty about what he's going to do next. it's part of this style in crisis. but it's a very dangerous maneuver at this particular moment. >> what do you make of reports of a so-called recalibration where russia is now focused on

those russian-speaking portions of eastern ukraine, and kind of backing off what they were saying relative to kyiv? is this a recognition on their part? some type of failure? >> yeah, i'd put this in the category of reality sucks occasionally. and the russians are encountering that. you know, plan "a," as we all know was blitz. go driving across ukraine, decapitate zelenskyy, puppet regime, all that to happen within three to five days. well, plan "a" failed. and has failed almost in a spectacular fashion, when you compare what they wanted to achieve and where they are. bogged down across the country. so, now, we're on plan "b" which is terrorize the population consolidate as much as you can in a negotiating position. and, michael, i think part of that is going to be i controlled the southeast of the country, the donbas region that you

mentioned, these play republics that he's created, luhansk and donetsk, crimea, you can sort of see the outline of where he's trying to go. he's attempting to consolidate. >> worries over chemical weapons have been a part of the president's overseas trip. you wrote for bloomberg on that subject this week. i'm going to put up on the screen, admiral what you had to say. a chemical or biological attack would terrorize the population. it would also him conserve his inventory of cruise missiles and bombs. few things would empty a city faster than a cloud of nerve gas. here, admiral, is what the president said yesterday on this subject. watch. >> if chemical weapons were used in ukraine, would that trigger a military response from nato? >> it would trigger a response in kind.

whether or not you're asking whether nato would cross, we'd make that decision at the time. >> you are the former supreme allied commander. and if it's a non-nato nation that iswherein lies the authority for a nato response? >> well, for starters, very difficult to control weapons like chemical or biological. so, you could make the case, michael that you are, you, russia, are threatening nations because of lack of ability to control it. same as a tactical nuclear weapon, by the way. but i think what the president is referring to is, that is a step, using a weapon of mass destruction, that say step that would require nato to, the a minimum, consult and make decisions about responses. and i think the president is smart not to lay out exactly what we're going to do. where we're going to do it. because, michael, that response

could be military. it could be more sanctions. it could be in cyber. it could be maritime, at sea. there are a lot of options that the west could take, if putin were foolish enough to use a weapon of mass destruction. whether or against a nato nation, or against a democracy like ukraine. i think the president's right, it would require a response. he's not going to show his hand of cards just yet, but i assure you options are being prepared. >> final quick question. is he being tough enough, i ask about president biden because a recent ap survey, put that on the screen, kathryn, 51% responding to the ap and norc saying president biden not tough enough. 36 like the porridge, it's about right. and 6%, too tough. what does admiral stavridis say,

let's get out of the sea of porridge. what the president is trying to do steer a narrow passage in a tight sea. on the one side, significant escalation between two nuclear powers. on the other, what we all want to achieve is support to ukrainians in this brave fight. i think he's got the ship in the middle of the channel about right. >> admiral, thank you so much. we appreciate your expertise. >> thanks, michael. >> what are your thoughts? tweet me at smerconish. hit me up. from what we're seeing on the ground daily, michael, i would argue that the question of escalation has already been answered. glenn, i find it interesting and you heard the admiral's response that there's this potential recalibration taking place. we hope putin recognizes the follies of his ways, right and concentrating on russian-speaking eastern areas of ukraine, maybe not so much on

kyiv as they have in the past. another one, kathryn, if we've got time. i know there is a rick but the president would have done well to have gone to ukraine. >> robert tripp, i thought, i'm sure if humanly possible, he would have made that excursion. i thought when vice president kamala harris went to poland a few weeks ago, perhaps she would have tried to do so. then three foreign leaders got on a train and met with president zelenskyy. i'm sure president biden wanted to do it. i thought that would have been the feather in the cap of this trip. i want to know what you think. go to the website at smerconish.com and answer the survey question pipe just brought it up with admiral stavridis, should nato respond, if russia uses chemical weapons in ukraine? you heard what the president had to say on that during the course of his trip. i'll bring results later. up ahead after meeting with president duda, president biden now heading to the national stadium to meet with some of the

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or the places we didn't go. ♪ ♪ if you have nukes nobody messes with you, that appears to be russian president vladimir putin not so subtle message to the world are invading the nonnuclear weapons state of ukraine. just days after the start of the attack in late february, putin issued an ominous threat to anybody hoping to intervene in the conflict when he put russian forces on high alert. the biden administration fearing an all-out war with russia has since been adamantly opposed to

implements a no-fly zone over ukraine. you might remember ukraine gave up the entire arsenal after the cold war after nonproliferation treaty in 1994. that sames to work toward complete nuclear disarmament. in exchange, computer pledges to made to the u.s., britain and russia, nations that had nuclear weapons of their own before the treaty and allowed to keep them. now that the past to ukraine are seemingly meaningless, will they protect their own interests. david ignatius had this chilling profess prophesy, saying would putin have invaded ukraine had kept its nuclear arsenal back in 1994, when the united states presley it to disarm, i doubt

it. joining me to discuss is a research associate to managing the atom at harvard energy school. doctor, thank you for being here. did davis ignatius get it right? >> the short answer is yes. it is bad news for the no nonproliferation regime. the better for everybody in involved. and right now, russia, one of the recognized nuclear weapons under this treaty that you have mentioned, michael, has essentially gone rogue. and it's using its nuclear -- nuclear arsenal, not to deter nuclear war, but to enable an aggression against a nonnuclear weapons state.

that had a -- as david ignatius and you had mentioned, had given up nuclear weapons of its own back in 1994. >> it's sort of turns the old mutually assured destruction notion on its head. if russia didn't have nukes, i'm convinced nato would already be in ukraine. if ukraine had nukes, i don't think putin would have invaded ukraine. >> that's correct. one thing we have to keep in mind, what ukraine inherited and what it actually gave up was not a ready-to-use nuclear deterrents, right? ukraine would still have had to invest in certain facilities and, you know, make up some of the missing links of a nuclear weapons program in order to be able to have that deterrent from the soviet union. so it gave up a nuclear option. but it's still very significant. because this budapest memorandum

of security assurances to ukraine, in connection with the succession to the nonproliferation regime to russia at the time in 1994, that was a negotiated settlement part of the deal for ukraine, ukraine's decision to give up this nuclear inheritance. and it became part and parcel of the overall in nonproliferation regime. the damage it's done to ukraine today has far wider reverberations, and as david ignatius correctly pointed out, other countries are watching. i would add south korea and taiwan as well to that list. >> right. i was thinking if i'm south korea or if i'm taiwan, i think the lesson is we need to be nuclear as a capability, otherwise, this, too, could happen to us. >> right. because nobody wants an all-out

nuclear war, right? and putin has used -- has used nuclear threat very effectively. he communicated right off, it was the fourth day of the war that he pulled out the nuclear card, or even in his speech inaugurating the invasion. he mentions it over and over again. and then he raises the readiness level of his strategic deterrent forces and it worked. it works. it works to keep nato and the united states out. and what we're also realizing, having spent so much time thinking about is how this deterrent worked between two nuclear-armed states we haven't spent nearly enough time to think about how to deter a nuclear use by a nuclear state against a nonnuclear state. there's nothing to deter putin's use of say any nuclear weapon against ukraine today. >> doctor, a final question,

only 30 seconds, how them do we protect against the escalation that you and i both suspect is coming? >> there's no easy answer to this question. i think a lot of the writine riding on the outcome of this war. if ukraine prevails and somehow manages to push the west out, and then the narrative is maybe the weapons are not essential, right? maybe you can defeat a nuclear weapons state without having nuclear weapons. if ukraine falls, then -- then the nuclear weapons will gain a very different value in the world. >> thank you so much for your time and expertise. >> thank you for having me. more social media reaction from my smerconish twitter and facebook pages and youtube. if russia uses wmds we have no choice to intervene otherwise, the entire west will look weak.

which we are not. there's no choice. joe, i raised that with general stavridis what would be the justification for nato to get involved in a non-nato country, in this case, ukraine, if there had been chemical weapons, and that's our survey question today. and he said because they can't be contained, right? if chemical weapons are launched and target ukraine, the spread is going to impact potentially a nation like poland which is a member of nato that was his explanation which made sense to me. i want to remind you, go to the website smerconish.com and answer the survey question -- should nato respond if russia uses chemical weapons in ukraine? up ahead, president biden is in poland, of course, meeting with refugees from ukraine. we'll bring you a live update. and if russian state tv is only source of news about the invasion of ukraine, you would not have even heard it called a war. what is putin communicating to his country, and is there any way around it?

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what exactly are the russian people being told about the war in ukraine? that's my question, as vladimir putin works to obliterate press freedom in his country. since the invasion began the lights have gone out at countless russian media outlets. organizations like online medusa, tv channel dosh and the russian government has gone further passing a law that bans what it considers, quote, fake news about war in ukraine. the kremlin has even tried to stem the free flow of

information online by stemming the crackdown to social media. access has been restricted or blocked outright for spaces like facebook and twitter for millions of russians. where are they getting their news now? according to my next guest, it's a russian tv channel on state channel that has changed very little. here from odesa is a former analyst and diplomat lawrence sheetz. he's written a piece for politico after watching russia's flagship news broadcast for clues what's happening inside the kremlin. so, lawrence, where do they go, the russian people to get their news? >> well, most of them would get their information from channel 1 russian television, state television. this particular program of which you speak is called -- that means time in russian. it's been on since 1956. it comes on religiously at 9:00

p.m. each evening. across the 11 time zones, depending on where you are in russia. that is where most people will get their news. there are other television stations but they're all dominated by the kremlin. outside of that, you would have to somehow go through vpn on the internet or satellite, satellite dishes, or satellite internet, things of this nature, short wave radio. a few people do that and the fact is they get their information from state tv. >> if i'm dependent on it, what do i believe about russia in ukraine? what have i been told? >> well, you've been told that you are on a noble mission to fight nazis. and that russia is fighting ukraine to rid russia, to rid ukraine of nazi leadership, which, by the way, is led by a jewish president, and at once, there was both a jewish

president and jewish prime minister at the same time, the only country outside of israel as such. they've been told they're fighting neo-nazis. the narrative shifts all the time. that terminology has been toned down somewhat. now, they're fighting nationalists, now, they're fighting ukrainian -- they call them cannibals or heads -- people who cut off heads, these sort of things. the operative language has changed as well which is more important to understand. ukraine is being referred to as nothing more as a beachhead for nato. in words of russian television is intent on destroying russian civilization and russian culture and the russian language. people in russia are being today, for instance, that it's forbidden to speak russian in ukraine. i'm in odesa, this is a russian-speaking city. 90% of the conversations are in russian. it is not forbidden. i listen, for instance now, i have on ukrainian radio.

quite often the questions from the anchors will give the question -- if the person is native russian speaker from the eastern part of the country they will answer in russian. they're not mutually understandable languages. they're farther apart than spanish and italian, for instance. but if you lived here all your life, then you can understand what's going on. there's no phobia about speaking russian to a ukrainian speaker. >> if my primary source of information is the tv station, how do i think this russian invasion is going from a russian perspective? >> well, it's going spectacularly according to the kremlin. read between the lines it's being called a special operation in two pseudo republics, donetsk

and crimea, being cast in the light of the united states and nato against russia. last night was especially revealing, last two nights on russian television, as hunter biden, for instance. hunter biden had served on the board of a ukrainian gas company. and they said that hunter biden was not just -- in their words, i quote this, snorting cocaine when he was in ukraine, but he was leading a special operation to establish chemical and biological weapons factories, complexes in ukraine. and that united states was equipping birds and infecting them with viruses ranging from plague to cholera, and sending flocks of ducks and birds into russia or planning to. that's more to the president and down to his advisers. >> it sounds just as it was during the cold war and of course the days of the soviet union. lawrence sheets, thank you so

much. we appreciate your time and your report. >> thank you, sir. >> checking in on more social media reaction from the world of twitter. you ask if the russian citizens can know the truth about the war. i ask with our biased media can we as americans know the truth? joe, i think -- i guess it was springsteen, i'm pretty sure back in the '90s, 57 channels and nothing is on. fact-check me easily on that. now, you've got 500 channels, you know, in this country and the world outside of russia. imagine as if there's a shutdown of all of the media, and you've got one source, and it's a 9:00 p.m. show run on state tv. you just heard my guest tell you the b.s. they're being fed. here is what you make of it. in the western world, in united states in particular, you know what i say, change the channel. mix up your media diet. and don't be dependent on one

particular outlet. they don't have that luxury. i want to remind you to answer the question this week at smerconish.com -- should nato respond if russia uses chemical weapons in ukraine? kathryn, do we have time to run that clip of what the president said on this, roll it if you can. we don't have it -- okay. this was president biden addressing -- addressing that subject. i'll play it for you when we come back. by the way, the president is heading to the national stadium in warsaw to visit with some of the 2 million refugees from the ukrainian conflict who have come to poland. we'll bring you that as it happens. and domestic politics, newly released text from mark meadows to the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas said she was lobbying to overturn the election. in one conversation, quote, my best friend, could that be her husband, the only justice to

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ this is tape from moments ago, president biden heading to the national stadium in warsaw, to visit with some of the 2 million refugees from the ukrainian conflict who have come to poland. we'll bring you more on that as it happens. turning now to domestic

politics, what are the political viewpoints of a supreme court justice's spouse to public's business? that's a question raised by the release of 29 text messages between justice clarence thomas' conservative activist wife ginni. and mark meadows, the former trump white house chief of staff surrounding the events of january 6th and the election. with the headline of story by robert costa, virginia thomas urged white house chief of staff to pursue unrelenting efforts. the texts show, on pro-trump sightings, quote, biden crime family and ballot fraud co-conspirators. elected officials, bureaucrats, social media reporters, are being arrested and detained for ballot fraud right now and over

coming days and will be gives in barges at gitmo. and i hope this is true. after november 10th after joe biden predicted winner, help this great president stand firm, mark. you are the leader with him who is standing for america's constitutional governance. two weeks later, meadows wrote to thomas and said of the effort to overturn the results, quote, this is a fight of good versus evil. evil always looks like the victor until the king of king's triumphs do not grow weary in the well doing. the fight continues. i have staked my career on it, well at least my time in d.c. on it. ginni thomas has the right as any american, but her text with the outlandish qanon reflect her

husband's views. she wrote, needed that, this, plus a conversation with my best friend just now. i'll keep holding on, america is worth it. it begs the question who does ginni thomas mean when she says best friend. and the new yorker reveals best friend is how the thomases refer to one another. telling a gathering, it's great to be married to your best friend. he said that publicly many other times including the supreme court's annual lecture in 2019. >> i love to spend time with my wife who is totally my best friend in the whole world. >> armstrong williams, a longtime friend of justice thomas was quoted about ginni in "the new york times" magazine saying just last month, it's his wife, best friend, most trusted confidant, he loves her unconditionally. he doesn't agree with everything but they work it out privately.

thomas is a defender of former president trump on the court. when a court declined to hear a case of republicans seeking to disqualify certain mail-in ballots. and this past january, he was the only justice to vote against the lease of trump white house-related documents. and joining me now is nancy gurtner, former u.s. district judge of the district of massachusetts, currently a senior lecturer at the harvard law school. so, the question i guess, judge, is this, should justice thomas have recused himself regarding the election results and the events of january 6th? >> let me break it down in two parts. should he have recused himself in the past. and whether or not he should recuse himself going forward with any case involving the election of 2020 or the january 6 investigation. should he have recused himself from the past.

i think he should have clearly recused himself about the case involving the subpoenas, the january 6 committee subpoena of meadows' records. but he either knew that includes that in box of materials that they were subpoenaing were texts that would implicate his wife. or he should have known. the wonderful -- you know, this is not a don't ask, don't tell situation. if you should have known, sor yu reasonably believe in that box of materials being subpoenaed included texts that could implicate your wife, then he should have recused himself. the law that binds even the supreme court, although it's largely unenforceable, talks about situations in which your impartiality could reasonably be questioned. no one is saying she doesn't have a right to her own activism. i'm certainly the last person who would say that.

the issue is, in these cases, her documents, her words, her texts, will be in the box of materials that the court is trying to -- that the january 6th committee is trying to get. should he recuse himself going forward now that all of this stuff has come out? i don't think there's any question that he should. >> so, i agree with the way you've framed this, although, i don't know about your articulation that he knew or should have known. why should he necessarily have known that his wife was communicating through these channels with mark meadows? >> well, during -- other parts of the recusal statute talks about, you know, you have an obligation, for example, to find out whether your wife is involved financially in your cases. this, it seems to me is an analogous situation. if he knows and was clear she was a public activist. that she's involved in these activities and there is at least

a substantial chance that her activities would be, you know, concludes in the materials that are being turned over to the committee, then it seems to me you have an obligation to inquire further. you have an obligation to find out what's going on. it really -- it would be one thing if she was involved, you know, in the activities in ukraine, for example, and had no idea. but that's really not what's going on here. let me add, it's not only that her talks to meadows and her urging of the returning of the election is involved here. but also the texts talk about the legal strategies to overturn the election. a legal strategy which necessarily involved going to the supreme court. so -- >> judge, can i just underscore something? can i just underscore -- i can you respect this as well, she's got a first amendment right. i know when you on the federal bench, correct me if i'm wrong, your husband played a leadership role with the massachusetts

aclu, i see an analogous situation where no one should have ask you to rein him in or vice versa. he's got a right to say what he wants to do. you got to go about your job. it's where the two intersect that is the around his work and my work. the aclu couldn't have a brief in any case that i was involved in. the aclu could not be involved in any way and vice versa. he would say you choose gertner or the aclu. you can't have both. we were very strict about that. >> thank you, judge. appreciate your time. >> you're welcome. take care. still to come, more of your best and worst tweets and facebook comments and we'll give you the final results of this week's survey question. go to smerconish.com. should nato respond if russia uses chemical weapons in ukraine?

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just moments ago, president biden arriving for meetings with the world kitchen, about to greet ukrainian refugees in poland. we'll stay on that story. here's how you voted on this week's survey question, should nato respond if russia uses chemical weapons in ukraine? final results are as follows, wow, do you think that was a decisive result? time for one social media, 97%. wow, 22,000. the president should not have attempted a visit to ukraine given the security issues.

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