at the museum a picture of our local producer's grandfather was on the wall. he had been imprisoned for two years before being sent to a soviet gulag for 25 years. thanks for spending your sunday morning with us. more reporting from ukraine over the next week. the news continues next. this is "gps," the "global public square." welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world, i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the show, russia's brutal war shifts focus to the east. we will bring you the latest from cnn's team on the ground. then, the case for war crimes. western governments have vowed to hold vladimir putin accountable, but what can the world do? i will speak to the former british prime minister gordon

brown who is calling for a nuremberg-style war crimes tribunal. and 1 billion euros a day, that is how much energy europe is still buying from russia. how will sanctions ever work if the oil and the oil money keep flowing? finally on a lighter note, i will bring you a clip from my new cnn plus interview with the extraordinary billy joel. but, first, here is my take. when russia launched its attack on ukraine a wide variety of commentators believed that there was at least one silver lining in this catastrophic cloud. putin's assault on the liberal order they hoped would expose and delegitimize the illiberal populist forces that have been surging for years. one commentator speculated that the ukraine war could end the age of populism.

another scholar saw it as an opportunity for people to finally reject right wing nationalism. alas, six weeks into this conflict such speculation looks like wishful thinking. in europe two pivotal elections in hungary and france tell the tale. as recently as a week ago it was possible to suggest as an essay in the athletic did that the ukraine world was upending european politics by highlighting the illiberal and efforts of the french -- experts were quoted saying that orban was desperately trying to reframe the events around the war and predicted that the french would now see macron as probably the only person who can lead them through there crisis. in fact, viktor orban won reelection and a fourth straight term in office by a handy margin, getting around 53% of the vote compared to the

opposition coalition's roughly 34%. the same day voters in serbia reelected a populist staunchly pro-putin president by a landslide. in france where the first round of presidential elections set for today polling suggests that macron's lead has been evaporating and that le pen has surged significant isly. as a "new york times" head line says even before france votes the french right is a big winner. in europe at least right wing populism continues to thrive. it's not that russia's actions in ukraine are popular, they just don't dominate people's world view. the reputations of the pro-russian politicians have not suffered from the war as many expected. frustrated by the hungarian leader's cozying up to putin volodymyr zelenskyy actually denounced orban, calling him virtually the only one in europe to openly support mr. putin. it didn't work. in america one sees similar forces at work though they are

not as strong. initially in the first weeks of the war the republican party seemed to revert to its historic hawk i wishness on foreign policy, many of its older guard are vociferously anti-putin and pro-ukrainian but that would not describe the position of the man who is still its most popular leader, donald trump. who has praised putin since the invasion. >> why shouldn't i root for russia, which i am? >> fox news' highest ranked leader tucker carlson who two years ago declared he was on russia's side against the battle for ukraine has repeated russian propaganda about alleged american sponsored bio weapons labs in ukraine. it's worth noting there are some mitigating factors at play here. viktor orban has manipulated hungary's democracy in ways that give him structural advantages. in 2010 he gave citizenship to 2.4 million ethnic hungriness living abroad and portrayed

himself as the only defender of their rights, which gained him massive support from these newly minted voters. he's quashed the independent media, the government actively promotes orban sending out publicly funded posters with his image. these practices have led freedom house to rate hungary as the only european union country that is just partly free. even so, right wing populism in hungary and elsewhere is genuinely popular. while le pen has taken advantage of rising inflation, castigating macron's government for price hikes of all kinds, her fundamental appeal comes from her nationalism. others on the right constantly rail against immigrants, multicull rallism, lgbtq rights and a new phrase that has cropped up in france. at the same time these leaders have cast aside much of the free market economics of the old right. le pen has denounced many of

macron's liberal reforms and embraced the old statist policies of the french left such as the 35 hour workweek and early retirement. she has speculated she might bring in members of the left who agree with his ideas on protection nlism and industrial -- she has long time practice 'tissed a statism that dolls out state subsidies to groups his party favors. in america tucker carlson spends little time on the ukraine war, focusing his program instead on a daily diet of outrage about woke politics and cancel culture. leading republicans like ron desantis do the same. if you were to listen to the american right these days you would think that the most pressing issues in the world today are school boards that are indoctrinating children with ideas about jending fluidity. it is true that these ideas appeal to only part of the electorate, especially those who are older, more rural and less educated, but by now it should be clear that these voters are

numerous enough and passionate enough to win elections on both sides of the atlantic. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. in perhaps the most telling sign yet that vladimir putin knows his war effort in ukraine has fared poorly, he's made a mid-course change to the top of his command structure. general aleksandr dvornikov will now lead the russian military in ukraine. cnn's phil black joins knee now from lviv, ukraine, to talk more about this move and what it means for the future of the conflict. phil, welcome. what we do know about this man, general dvornikov, is his record in syria which was one of brutality, particularly towards

civilians, but effectiveness, right? >> reporter: that's right, fareed. so he is a man with history, the sort of history that is going to make people concerned about the brutality that could still be yet to come in this war. and, yes, in syria he was the commander, the first commander of russia's intervention in that civil war. the war that eventually turned the tide and ultimately saved the syrian regime, but at tremendous costs. it was an operation that had great willingness to use terror and cause suffering and death among civilian populations, notably of course in the city of aleppo. what this all shows, though, is that it is yet another sign that russia is aware that things haven't gone well so far. a tacet admission that its efforts so far simply haven't worked because the assessment so far has been that russia's various units and various parts of the country have been operating with considerable independence and what that means is no overall cohesion, at times

there have been crossing over, at times they've been competing for resources and logistical support as well. this as russia now focuses its efforts in the east, as it is expected to launch a more consolidated effort to take territory there in the hope of making tangible military gains in the donbas region. this new commander is seen as a new effort, as an additional part of that effort, i should say, fareed, in order to bring that new cohesiveness and bring results quickly. >> the tragedy about what you're telling us, phil, is it means the worst things get for russia the worse they get for ukraine's civilian population because they then, you know, wreck even great destruction. i want to ask you very quickly about the eastern strategy now because we have these satellite images of a long supply line going to kharkiv. what is specifically going on here? is it an effort to really corden

off the east? is this going to be a new and powerful offensive? >> reporter: that's the expectation. so these images show us -- and back up what we've been hearing from ukrainian officials in the region and that is that russia is bringing in large numbers of troops and resources ready to launch operations in the hope of breaking through ukrainian defensive lines. that convoy is heading south, the line advancing south of kharkiv through the city of izyum this is thought to be a key point where russia really wants to direct attention in order to expand its control of that donbas region. it is a region that has already experienced significant fighting in recent weeks and that is expected to get much worse with the launch of these new offensive operations. >> phil black, terrific reporting. thank you so much. stay safe. next on "gps," britain's former prime minister gordon brown on his plan to hold

vladimir putin accountable for his military's actions in ukraine. hers. cut! you see willie, i don't think skechers are illegal anywhere. really? no. well pass the skechers! his military's actions in is scotts turf builder rapid grass. it grows twoimes faster than seed alone for full, green grass. erything else just seems... slow. it's lawn season. let's get to the yard. (fisher investments) in this market, you'll find fisher investments is different than other money managers. (other money manager) different how? aren't we all just looking for the hottest stocks? (fisher investments) nope. we use diversified strategies to position our client's portfolios for their long-term goals. (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissions for you, right? his military's actions in no, mn products. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client's best interest. (other money manager) so when do you make more money, only when your clients make more money? (fisher investments) yep. we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different.

(jackie) i've made progress with my mental health. so when i started having unintentional body movements called tardive dyskinesia... i ignored them. but when the twitching and jerking in my face and hands affected my day to day... i finally had to say, 'it's not ok.' it was time to talk to my doctor about austedo. she said that austedo helps reduce td movements in adults... while i continue with most of my mental health medications. (vo) austedo can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become

depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have suicidal thoughts. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. don't take austedo if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, restlessness, movements mimicking parkinson's disease, fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, and sweating. (jackie) talk to your doctor about austedo...it's time to treat td. td is not ok. visit askforaustedo.com.

okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪ cal: our confident forever plan is possible with a cfp® professional. a cfp® professional can help you build a complete financial plan. visit letsmakeaplan.org to find your cfp® professional. ♪

the scenes of death and destruction from ukraine in recent days have amplified calls to hold russia accountable for its actions there. a warning, we're going to show you some of those scenes and they're graphic. the images from bucha shocked the world, a mass grave behind a church and dead scattered around the town's streets. then on friday in the eastern city of cram a torse k a train station backed with people trying to escape to safety was hit by a russian missile stroo strike. at least 50 were killed and 100

wounded. one of the big questions surrounding this is should vladimir putin himself be prosecuted for war crimes? could he be? the former british prime minister gordon brown has proposed a way to make this happen. he joins me now from scotland. gordon brown, explain why this idea of yours would make a difference? after all, we are not going to arrest vladimir putin anytime soon. >> what we're seeing now is torture, rape, mutilation, murder, not as by-products of war but as a policy of war being conducted by putin and we have already found this morning far more evidence in other villages just outside kyiv of these kinds of crimes. so we've got to, first of all, say that putin cannot act with impunity, secondly, we have to say that those people in his inner circle are complicit and they could be charged with crimes of conspiracy. and thirdly, we've got to give

the ukrainian people the sense that we will continue to monitor and report and investigate and eventually prosecute these crimes. they need the assurance that the eyes of the whole world are upon ukraine. and i believe that we should set up a special tribunal in this case to charge putin with a crime of aggression. clearly he has invaded the country and clearly he continues this process of invasion even if he is now focused on the east rather than on kyiv. and i believe a special tribunal could be created very quickly, it's at the request of ukraine whom i have talked to about this and many other countries should support their efforts to get this tribunal. it should probably be set up in the hague alongside the international criminal court which would over time investigate war crimes and humas crime of aggression is the supreme crime, it was what was

prosecuted after 1942 when we decided that there would be what became the nuremberg trials and it's perfectly within our power to agree that we should set up this tribunal now. >> the big difference between nuremberg and now, gordon brown, is that people say you're going to have to cut a deal with putin. the only way out of this crisis is some kind of negotiated settlement. obviously in world war ii the goals were unconditional surr surrender, total destruction of the nazi regime and the imperial japanese regime. given that you're going to have to deal with putin most likely does it make sense to do this? >> that would be for a decision of the ukraine people what sort of deal that they might in the end reach as an agreement with the russians, but we've got to understand the only thing that putin understands -- i've worked with him, i've dealt with him, i've negotiated with him -- the only thing he understands is strength. if you show any sign of weakness either disunity or a willingness

to compromise on principles then he will use that as a sign they can go further. so we've got to display strength and strength is saying you cannot act with impunity. these are war crimes, probably crimes against humanity, they may extend over time to genocide, a form of ethnic cleansing, we do not yet know about that, but what we do know is that there's been a crime of aggression. that was the initial crime in 1942. now, the question then is how do you get to putin and his inner circle to punish them? you make it clear of course that the crime of aggression is in russian law, it's in ukraine law, you make it clear that if he left the country he would be arrested, you make it clear to his inner circle that if they stick with pew then then they are liable to be arrested, too. what you have to do is set up a process, probably in the hague as i say, working alongside the international criminal court, but we will publish this week what is, if you like, a list of the crimes of aggression which makes it clear that there is a

prime ma fascia case against putin and his inner circle. >> it sounds like you're saying putin is essentially persona non grata, become an international pariah. in that circumstance, for example, should russia's membership in the g 20 be suspended in some way? this is what jake sullivan the national security adviser has raised. you were instrumental in making the g20 important after the global financial crisis. should russia be out? >> well, of course, russian has been thrown out of the g7 which for a brief period of time became the g8 and i think that was the right decision to take. suspension is different from expulsion and of course in circumstances where you cannot work with a country -- russia is space clee on the sidelines in the g20 at the moment, it is not partic participating. i don't think putin has attended a meeting recently or any of his ministers in-person. i think that's a decision the

g20 can meet -- what would you recommend? >> i would recommend suspension but i would hope that it would not lead in the end to expulsion, but that depends. putin's regime is a pariah state. as long as putin is leader of russia in my view it will remain a pariah state. it is leading to the decoupling of russia from europe and the decoupling of russia from the west. we don't know yet what final attitude china will take to this. it is more ambivalent perhaps than what people thought at the outset of this crisis. what i feel we're moving towards unless we take action as one world and two systems, the future of one world two systems, what i think the west has got to do, that's europe and america, is offer people a global marshall plan which is not simply about military action to contain russia and potentially in future to contain china, but economic and political action that can bring those parts of the world together, whether it's

through free trade or whether it it's through -- to make sure people can enjoy prosperity. we have to show that there is a superiority in the way that their economic prosperity has developed in the countries of europe and america. >> you dealt with putin when he had essentially ordered the poisoning and the killing of a former -- of a russian defector. you know, when -- in your view when he faces these setbacks, when he feels like plan a is not working, what is most likely? what do you imagine putin's plan is now in ukraine? >> putin is opportunist. you know what his final objectives are, but he's opportunist. when the man was assassinated in london we knew he was behind t also knew he was planning other assassinations on british soil and the only way we prevented these until the attempt in

salisbury ten years later was massive security on our side but the threat to russia about the action we would be taking if there were further attempts at assassination on our soil. in other words, the only thing he understands is threats, the only thing he understands is strength and we've got to show that this united strength that has started this approach to dealing with this crisis continues and that will mean, i'm afraid to say for germany and others they will have to do oil and gas sanctions, they will have to cover all the banks and not just some of the banks, and it would be ridiculous if we ended up paying the post of putin's war by allowing the continuation of payments from the west to russia for oil and gas over a very considerable period of time. >> gordon brown, always good to have you on, sir. thank you. >> thank you. next on "gps," we will take up gordon brown's challenge and talk about exactly how europe can wean itself of russianan

energy. back in a moment. [♪] did you know you can address one of the root causes of aging by targeting all the cells in your body? try tru niagen. life as we know it cannot exist without nad. as we age, nad can decrease by as much as 50%. tru niagen is proven to increase nad, to support heart and muscle health, and energy production that starts in your cells. address one of the root causes of aging with tru niagen, researched by the world's top scientific institutions. if you have advanced non-small cell lung cancer, your first treatment could be a chemo-free combination

of two immunotherapies that works differently. it could mean a chance to live longer. opdivo plus yervoy is for adults newly diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer that has spread, tests positive for pd-l1, and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. together, opdivo plus yervoy helps your immune system launch a response that fights cancer in two different ways. opdivo plus yervoy equals a chance for more time together. more family time. more time to remember. opdivo and yervoy can cause your immune system to harm healthy parts of your body during and after treatment. these problems can be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have a cough; chest pain; shortness of breath; irregular heartbeat; diarrhea; constipation; severe stomach pain, nausea or vomiting; dizziness; fainting; eye problems; extreme tiredness; changes in appetite, thirst or urine; rash; itching; confusion; memory problems; muscle pain or weakness; joint pain; flushing; or fever. these are not all the possible side effects. problems can occur together and more often when opdivo is used with yervoy. tell your doctor about all medical conditions including immune or nervous system problems, if you've had or plan to have an organ or stem cell transplant, or received chest radiation.

here's to a chance to live longer. ask your doctor about the combination of two immunotherapies, opdivo plus yervoy. thank you to all those in our clinical trials.

earlier this week ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy asked an urgent question, how many more ukrainian men and women will the russian military kill before western governments implement a ban on russian energy? the chorus of voices calling for such a ban is growing, but how could europe do it? the eu depends on russia for about a quarter of its oil imports and about 40% of its gas. meghan o'sullivan is here with some answers, she is the director of the geopolitics energy at harvard kennedy school, she was deputy national

security adviser for iraq and afghanistan under george w. bush. meghan, welcome. so i want to start by asking you a baseline kind of question, which is if you had your job as deputy national security adviser and president biden called you in and said, i want us to work on driving down putin's oil and gas revenues, can you come up with a plan? is the basic -- is your basic view it's doable, but hard, or it's really not in the realm of possible? >> well, thanks, fareed. good to be with you. and i would say it's certainly doable and the question is at what cost? and there are different components of this, as you know, and any -- actually, the biden administration, as you know, has already decided to cut off its import of oil and gas from russia, but the real question, i think, is is europe? you know, the extent of the rest of the world and europe makes up

such a significant amount of the purchase of russian energy from, you know -- from both the oil and gas perspectives. so i would say if i were asked to present a plan i would say let's break this into pieces. the first piece is probably coal by europe has already announced its intention to do. the next piece would be oil and that i think is really the critical piece because in 2021 the russians made about $3 for every dollar -- they made $3 in oil revenues for every dollar they made in gas revenues. so while we hear a lot of talk about oil and gas together, if we're really trying to choke off russian revenues it's oil that is the critical factor and then gas is even harder, but not as critical to the russian revenue streams. >> so let me just put up a graph which illustrates the point you're making in terms of where revenues come from. russian revenues from oil, 2021,

$178.9 billion, gas is just $61.8 billion. a lot, but, as you said, almost a third as much as oil. so what would you do about oil? how do you replace russian oil? >> sure. and let's talk about this from the perspective of europe. we just heard very passionately from gordon brown and europe is really -- this is where the sanctions against potentially russian oil are most in play. so right now russia exports about 7.8 million barrels a day or up until recently let's say that, both oil and oil products. and about half of that goes to europe. so we're talking about 4.5 million barrels of oil going from russia to europe every day. what would happen to the world and to europe if that were cut off in very short order? so the oil market, unlike the gas market, as you know, is global and oil is a fungible product. at least in theory the oil that

russia wasn't consuming could be fed back into other markets and that ultimately there would be some kind of rebalancing or reshuffling of the whole global system. that's in theory. in practice i think it would be a lot harder, although certainly some of that oil would make its way back into the system, most likely through china. china is really the key here if we're asking about what happens to the oil market. it depends on how much china takes. china has the ability to take a lot of that, let's say a substantial portion, the majority of that 4.5 million barrels of oil that europe might not take, but that is just from a feasible, technical feasibility. it really also is a political question for the chinese. they've become -- you know, they cultivated this very close relationship with the gulf producers and might be reluctant to jet a sent that or to scale it back in favor of accepting a substantial amount more of russian crude. so there is the chinese, we can talk about opec being another

source of trying to make up that lost supply as well as some outliers like iran and venezuela. but all of these have uncertainties around them and there are time lags to all of them. add to those pieces of supply you also have the prospects of american increased oil production, but more likely we're looking at a continued relyons on the strategic petroleum reserve at least for a few months. so the bottom line, fareed, is that there are a lot of places where the world could make up that shortfall, but all of these, as i said, have a lot of uncertainty around them and it would take an unprecedented amount of cooperation and real savvy execution to make sure that there wasn't a huge disruption in the oil markets as a result of a ban on russian oil to europe. >> meghan, so what you're saying, which is very important and i think not enough people understand, it's not just enough to increase the supply by

getting opec to pump more or getting venezuela to pump more or getting the iran nuclear deal so iranian oil comes out, you also have to make sure that putin's oil doesn't just go to another buyer and that's why dealing with the chinese, dealing with the indians potentially who would otherwise simply substitute and putin would get the money just from another source. now i've got to ask you very briefly the hardest one, which is gas. what do we do about gas? i have a minute so i'm going to ask you to be -- to be brief here. >> sure. okay. so the international energy agency says looking at this from a less political, more technocratic perspective they say of the 155 bcm of gas that flows from russia to europe every year that by the end of this year, 2022, the your means could displays a little more than half of that russian gas and this would be through a

variety ways, through increased l & g increased lateral gas from other sources, a significant increase in coal, a very modest increase in renewable energy and an increase in nuclear capacity and very significantly about 10% of that reduction of the 155 would come from demand destruction, basically conserving energy. so there is some way of feasibly replacing about half of russian gas exports within the year, which is not overnight, but, again, all of this requires a lot of coordination and it would still leave a significant shortfall that would end up resulting in much, much higher prices, particularly for your means and would result in probably more demand destruction because this florida wouldn't be sufficient quantities of gas to meet demand in the immediate term. so, again, i would conclude by saying all of this is feasible

and under the circumstances i think it is almost inevitable, at least on the oil side, but it will require a lot of -- a lot of coordination, a lot of markets moving things, a lot of political stamina to actually see this happen. >> meghan, thanks so much. that was very instructive. next up, masha gessen on what is happening inside russia. and tonight on cnn, we have a special. there was no one like anthony bourdain. this is the story you haven't heard from the people who knew him best. "road runner" a film about anthony bourdain that premieres tonight at 9:00 p.m. on cnn. rapid grass. it g grows two times faster thn seed alone for full, green grass. everything else just seems... slow.. it's lawn season. let's get t to the yard. life... doesn't stop for diabetes. be ready for every moment, with glucerna.

it's the number one doctor recommend brand that is scientifically designed to help mage your blood sugar. live every momt. is scientiglucerna.esigned to help mage your blood sugar. ♪ ♪ when you put on that perfect pair of glasses and you feel like you can take on the world?

everyone deserves that feeling. feeling like a million bucks doesn't have to cost as much. it's why every pair of privé revaux frames at america's best are so affordable and oh, so fly. um jamie? i'm pretty sure that was my line. get two pairs of privé revaux plus a free exam for $89.95 for a limited time at america's best. book an exam online at americasbest.com i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. do you have a life insurance policy you no longer need? now you can sell your policy - even a term policy - for an immediate cash payment. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly realized we needed a way to supplement our income. if you have $100,000 or more of life insurance, you may qualify to sell your policy. don't cancel or let your policy lapse without

finding out what it's worth. visit coventrydirect.com to find out if your policy qualifies. or call the number on your screen. coventry direct, redefining insurance. our commitment to you is clear. save money. live better. offer low prices every day, without sacrificing quality. by delivering fresh groceries you feel great about serving. providing prescriptions as low as $4, to keep your family healthy. always being here to help you save money and live a little better each day. ♪ ♪ you ever wonder why people are always on their phones? they're banking, with bank of america. look at this guy. he bought those tickets on his credit card and he's rackin' up the rewards. she's using zelle to pay him back for the hot dogs he's about to buy. and the announcer? he's not checkin' his stats,

he's finding some investing ideas with merrill. and third as you know in baseball means three. digital tools so impressive, you just can't stop banking. what would you like the power to do? my name is ami and i bought and financed my car through carvana. everything was all good but then things hit a slight snag. ok so they were trying to verify my employment status while i was at work, in a giant hole, in a mine. but then something amazing happened. hello? carvana worked with my shift manager and got everything sorted out so i didn't miss out on the car. super helpful. i was over the moon, even though i was underground. we'll drive you happy at carvana. one of the novel aspects of this war in ukraine is the speed at which the rest of the world is able to see the tragedies, hear about the brutality of it all, but it leaves one wondering

what do the russian people see? what are they being told? the russian-born masha gessen is a staff writer at "the new yorker," written brilliantly about all of this. the first question i have is we hear about these polls and we hear about the fact that russians seem to support the war, putin's ratings are at 83%, anecdotal evidence does seem to support this when you hear of reporters, they go out and ask people. what should we make of this? >> there's a certain point when opinion polling becomes meaningless and it's misleading to call it opinion polling. right? you can't have public opinion in a country that has no public and people have no opinions. at this point you're measuring the level of poe tall terrorism in society, when you get into numbers that are over 70% you are talking about how totalitarian is this place? where for people it feels like a matter of survival to mirror back to the state what the state says to them, that's what you're seeing.

in a sense maybe it's even more significant to look at the 17% who somehow objected, even though it's now punishable by up to 15 years to so-called spread false information about the russian military. >> but does that mean you think putin is not popular? because in most countries you have a war, people rally around the flag. >> absolutely. no, it does not mean that putin is not popular. by no means am i trying to say that people are trying to hide their real opinions. what i'm trying to say is that they are in a situation of extreme state pressure and extreme propaganda where they don't even have the opportunity to form their own opinions. >> there is a "new york times" piece in how people are going to denounce one another in a way that is reminiscent of the stalin era. >> totalitarian society is not only one that applies pressure from above but one where people start horizontally to enforce the rules that they see the state enforcing.

>> do you think it is significant that by some accounts 200,000 to 300,000 russians might have left or, again, it's a large country, this may not be that telling. >> a portion of that, of those people who left, which is probably about a quarter million the best estimate we have, those are people who were trying to create or creating a civil society in russia. that's a really important part of the population, it's a tiny group comparatively in a country of 145 million people, but it's a really important group. these were the people running ngos, who were the last remaining independent media and the fact that they've left and left in despair and left because they felt they had no choice is really heartbreaking for the country. >> and to me that makes me ask this last question. so if they think they can't change what is going on, is there anything from the outside one could do to penetrate through this totalitarian what

you're describing as a totalitarian state but also a totalitarian society, a society so shocked and scared by all of this that it's numb in a sense? >> i don't think at this point there is any pressure from the outside or from the inside that can change what goes on in russia. i think that the ideas that rhetorically under sanctions that people are going to rise up and overthrow putin because life gets difficult or that the elites are going to stage a palace coup are mostly fantasies. they are not entirely impossible but they are mostly fantasies. >> so what would you recommend? >> i think we have to think differently about it. i think we have to focus more on what is the actual lifeline of the regime and the actual lifeline of the regime is income from energy and think hard about the kind of hardship that the sanctions -- what we have now is not even sanctions exactly. they are sanctions but there's also this huge spontaneous

boycott by multinational corporation that is didn't have to pull out but feel that public opinion makes them pull out and also there is a snowball effect because the worse things are there the less sense it makes to do business there. but the impact of that is disproportionate. the impacts of sanctions is always disproportionately on the poor but the kind of sanctions we're seeing now is really disproportionately hitting the poor. it's making ordinary people not have access, for example, to life-sustaining medicine and that's an impact that we have already seen. what we haven't seen is cutting off the actual income for the regime and that's gas, oil, coal. >> let me ask you about the piece that "the new yorker" is going to publish tomorrow, i guess it is. it is about the great atrocity, the holocaust atrocity in ukraine. one part of what i want to ask you is it does feel like the

ukrainians are experiencing a kind of brutality that is oft the kind of epidemic proportions or epic proportions that happened. do you think enough is being done to recognize this? gordon brown wants to do a war crimes tribunal because it does feel like we're living through one of these moments in history that will be remembered for centuries. >> you know, for this article on the largest mass shooting of the holocaust that has never been properly memorialized and the biggest reason it has not been properly memorialized is because the soviet union suppressed any memory of the holocaust. in talking about it i talked to a priest who has become an investigator, who is known for coining the term holocaust by bullets, and he made this point that, you know, the holocaust as we think about it, the holocaust by gas, industrial murder, that's a unique event in history, but mass killing by

bullets happens all the time. >> and in a sense that is -- >> and goes unpunished. >> and that is the kind of thing we're seeing now, masha gessen, pleasure to haveve you on. thank you. we will be back.

i love being outside. my eyes...not so much. until i found new clear eyes® allergy. just one drop means all day relief, and my eyes...feel amazing. new clear eyes allergy. your eyes deserve the best™. (fisher investments) in this market, you'll find fisher investments is different than other money managers. (other money manager) different how? aren't we all just looking for the hottest stocks? (fisher investments) nope. we use diversified strategies to position our client's portfolios for their long-term goals. (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissions for you, right? (fisher investments) no, we don't sell commission products. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client's best interest. (other money manager) so when do you make more money, only when your clients make more money?

(fisher investments) yep. we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different.

now for an interlude, something completely different. when i was a teenager growing up in india i fell in love with the music of an extraordinary

american musician, billy joel. so when i started thinking about a new show on cnn plus, he was the first person i wanted to interview. i traveled town to his home near palm beach, florida, and we had a wonderful wide-ranging conversation about his music, his creativity, his life. it was at times very funny, at other times very serious. here is one of my favorite parts from the premiere episode of the series "extraordinary with fareed zakaria" only on cnn plus. >> sometimes you bring stuff to the band and in the course of playing it would get redone? >> well, i brought stuff to the band that they said, that stinks. >> really? >> oh, yeah. they don't hold back. my band is -- they are all from new york, this is back in the day, and if they didn't like something, my drummer would throw his sticks at me. >> liberty? >> yeah, terrible, that sucks. there was one song "moving out"

originally it went -- ♪ anthony works in the grocery store ♪ ♪ saving his pennies for some day ♪ ♪ mama leoni left a note ♪ >> they looked at me like that's laughter in the rain by neil is a dhaka. and i went, crap, i wrote all those words for nothing so i changed the melody. ♪ >> i wrote a whole new song. in a way it was a motivator to write a completely new song. they won't let me get away with anything. they're it snuf there's much more to see of this conversation with billy joel, part of my new series "extraordinary with fareed zakaria." and you can only see it on cnn's new streaming service cnn plus. to subscribe go to cnnplus.com. if you do so right now your subscription will be 50% off for

life. that is cnnplus.com to subscribe. now i want to close this program with a final thought about the crisis in ukraine. or rather about the crises being set off around the world because of the war in ukraine. you've heard about the challenges that western countries, particularly european countries, face with regard to their energy security, but in even more dramatic problem is ravaging some of the poorest countries in the world. as energy and food costs rise, many developing countries are finding that they simply do not have the money to import the minimum they need to survive and grow. in sri lanka, a sun tree that had been reforming and growing after years of civil war the government faces massive protests, has seen most of its cabinet resign and much of it parliamentary support erode, all triggered by huge spikes in prices. now, sri lanka's economic

problems predate the war in ukraine but the war has exacerbated those problems and it is exacerbating the crisis we are seeing. egypt, another country with an impressive recent record of reform and economic growth is the world's largest importer of wheat with 85% of that supply coming from russia and ukraine. the government has devalued its currency and put price controls on bread, but more emergency measures are likely to come. pakistan is in the middle of a political crisis anyway, but the war was made it more likely that the country will default on its debts. in fact, the war bank has noted that over the next year a dozen developing countries could default on their debt, the largest debt crisis in developing countries in a generation. and at sri lanka vividly shows these debt problems will turn into political instability very quickly. so when you hear about high energy costs don't just think about high heating bills in the

west. it might also mean strikes, protests, governmental collapse and a plunge into poverty in some of the most vulnerable parts of the world. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week.

thinkorswim® by td ameritrade is more than a trading platform. it's an entire trading experience. that pushes you to be even better. and just might change how you trade—forever. because once you experience thinkorswim® by td ameritrade ♪ there's no going back. if you have advanced non-small cell lung cancer, your first treatment could be a chemo-free combination of two immunotherapies that works differently. it could mean a chance to live longer. opdivo plus yervoy is for adults newly diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer that has spread, tests positive for pd-l1, and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. together, opdivo plus yervoy helps your immune system launch a response that fights cancer in two different ways. opdivo plus yervoy equals a chance for more time together. more family time. more time to remember. opdivo and yervoy can cause your immune system to harm healthy parts of your body during and after treatment.

these problems can be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have a cough; chest pain; shortness of breath; irregular heartbeat; diarrhea; constipation; severe stomach pain, nausea or vomiting; dizziness; fainting; eye problems; extreme tiredness; changes in appetite, thirst or urine; rash; itching; confusion; memory problems; muscle pain or weakness; joint pain; flushing; or fever. these are not all the possible side effects. problems can occur together and more often when opdivo is used with yervoy. tell your doctor about all medical conditions including immune or nervous system problems, if you've had or plan to have an organ or stem cell transplant, or received chest radiation. here's to a chance to live longer. ask your doctor about the combination of two immunotherapies, opdivo plus yervoy. thank you to all those in our clinical trials. i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health.

this is elodia. she's a recording artist. 1 of 10 million people that comcast has connected to affordable internet in the last 10 years. and this is emmanuel, a future recording artist, and one of the millions of students we're connecting throughout the next 10. through projectup, comcast is committing $1 billion so millions more students, past... and present, can continue to get the tools they need to build a future of unlimited possibilities.

hey, i'm brian stelter live in new york and this is "reliable sources." this hour ukraine's president using his media megaphone in new ways, while russia remains almost silent. anne applebaum's analysis coming up. plus the power of citizen video showing shanghai residents suffering under china's