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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  April 25, 2022 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com in our last hour we showed you there are women and children who have been trapped in a basement in a steel making complex in mariupol. they said they've been there since late february. it's no exaggeration to say the contrast between what life was like for them tonight and life just a little more than two months ago is perhaps as stark as any single place on earth. that reality sets the tone for this report from cnn's matt rivers. >> reporter: before mariupol became a hellscape, before
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russian military depravity turned a city into a cemetery, there was love here. just two weeks before the war began, this woman spent valentine's day with her boyfriend in the city. they took this picture at a cafe and this one after eating. and a few days later, she snapped this one of him from her window seat on the train that would take her back to kyiv. >> he kiss med and told, natalia, i don't know when i will see you again. >> reporter: resignation from a man who understood the realities of the war to come. her boyfriend, who we are not names or showing for security reasons, is a soldier in the azov battalion, a unit that has fought the russians in mariupol for months. we went to see her at her home in kyiv, where she told us her boyfriend was given a command to, quote, fight until the last drop of blood. >> what did you think when he told you that? >> i recommended him to save his
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life. but he answered, no, i should keep on. i am a soldier, and i have to be here. >> reporter: she says her boyfriend lost cell service on march 3rd. his silence was as deafening as the bombing that, by then, had started to fall around kyiv, forcing her and her family down into this cellar. this was in here that after two weeks she heard from him. >> when he called, it could be 10 or 15 seconds and then bombing. >> reporter: but with what connection he did have, he would send her videos of the utter destruction surrounding him. we can't show you those for security reasons. what do you think when you watch these videos? >> i think they're empty. i feel they're empty, absolute empty. >> reporter: along with the videos were selfies and texts. and on his birthday, a particularly special message.
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>> he gave me a proposition that i couldn't -- >> reporter: say no to. >> -- say no, yeah. >> reporter: what did he write to you? >> [ speaking foreign language ] so, i love you and do you want to be my wife? >> reporter: a few days later, a marriage certificate made it official. now a wife, she says she refuses to cry. her husband is stoic in the face of death, so she will be too. how else to describe her reaction to the last message he sent? >> my husband told me that, natalia, please be glad because very soon, it will finish. >> reporter: when you say, it's going to finish very soon, what are the two options? >> very simple. they will alive or they will be
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killed. just two options. >> and matt rivers joins us now. do we know how her husband is doing? >> the last message she got from him was a few days ago. what she told us in that message was that he had took pictures in a number of handwritten pages that he called her his final letter to her. he told her, don't read them unless i'm killed here. we asked her, do you think he's getting out alive. she said, in my head, i think it's impossible. but in her heart, she holds out hope. >> so many people going through unspeakable things in that steel plant in mariupol. few people have view of the horrors of mariupol. this pastor leads a congregation in mariupol. i spoke to him just before air time. pastor, you are close to
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mariupol. you're outside. you can't go inside for obvious safety reasons. you're not allowed in. but i know you work with people every day who pass into the city to help and some who come out. what are you hearing about has happening in mariupol? >> we have one short word for what's happening in mariupol. this not new term. this is genocide. this is genocide. my city completely destroyed. maybe 20, maybe 30, maybe 40,000 people was killed. and every day, russian soldier killed more people. every day we try get some people from mariupol. and when they stop talking about what's happened there, i can
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hear this. 21st century europe, my beautiful, amazing city, just two months ago. they destroyed all of this. and it's real hell right now. so many crazy stories. >> before the invasion, it was said there were some 440,000 people who lived in mariupol. it was a thriving city. when you look at the images now, it is a hellscape. it is -- it is destroyed. vladimir putin recently praised his generals, saying that -- praising him on what he called the liberation of mariupol. is that what the russians have done there? have they liberated that town? >> what do we hear when we in ukraine hear this? we are real angry, and even me,
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pastor. but i can't hear this. can you imagine your american city like new york, for example, and if somebody came to your city, will destroy it completely, city where you was born, where they kill thousand, thousand people, children, women, old people. and they will tell for old world, we are just save people. what is that? what is that? how it's supposed to go? but they did it. they tell people, we are savers. we save -- we save people here. we told them, please don't say that. we don't need russian soldier there. mariupol was one of the best city in my country.
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amazing city. even last eight years, front line was not so far, just 15, 20 kilometers from my home. but even last eight years, my city built -- they remodelled and they built so many beautiful place. but now, all of this garbage. everywhere killed people. my city now looks like huge cemetery -- yeah, i say. everywhere, people's body was killed. it's unbelievable. >> i appreciate your time. i'm so sorry for what is happening. thank you for talking to us. more now on the unfolding battle for eastern ukraine as well as the dire situation right now in mariupol, which has been under russian attack or siege
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for the better part of two months. joining us is general mark hertling. general hertling, you see the images coming out of mariupol. what is your assessment of the ongoing battle there? how long can the ukrainian troops, under siege, surrounded in a steel plant hold out for? >> anderson, if you were to ask me that question three weeks ago, i would have said, not long. they have performed miracles. the ukrainian forces that are in that azovstal plant facility, which is -- has been shown to be about the equivalent of the size of major cities throughout europe, has just been miraculous, to say the most. it puts -- it puts places like bastogne to shame in terms of what they have done over this -- the last two months. there have been three times the number of russian troops attempting to overtake and seize that facility. they have failed in that action.
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it has caused a huge backup of logistics trails to the east, to the north, and to the west out of that city for the russian soldiers. so, this has been a phenomenal fight by these heroes of mariupol. and they will go down as legends in the history of ukraine when this thing is over. >> the joint chief chairman, general milley, said the next several weeks are going to be critical for the outcome of the battle in the south. he talked about making sure the right type of aid is getting to the right location at the right time. that's gotten a lot more difficult now given the long supply lines. i mean, we've talked before about russia's long supply lines. you now have ukrainians needing, you know -- it's a long journey from the polish border all the way to the eastern front to try to get howitzers and tanks and other things to them. >> yeah, to put it in perspective, anderson, what i did is a comparison on a u.s.
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map today. it's about 950 miles from lviv to dnipro, which is right in the center of the fighting right now. that's their major transfer point. then it has to go from dnipro to kharkiv, to kramatorsk, to donetsk. and respectively it's about 200 to 250 miles to each one of those cities after they get the supplies to dnipro. we're talking about literally tons of ammunition, large pieces of military equipment, a requirement to, say, how do we get the right things to the right place because truthfully, ukraine is going to be fighting on three different fronts. the northeast, the southeast, and the south. the ukrainian army is going to face a lot of challenges. they're going to start conducting large-scale conventional combined arms operations, which were not like we saw north of kyiv. and they're going to have to manage logistics at a very large
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level across all of these battle space and across these long lines of communication, as we call it. it's all going to be proving very challenging. but what we've seen so far is the challenges the russians face or have faced in the past are much greater. and i personally don't think the russian army has solved any of the problems they've brought into this eastern and southern fight. >> well, that was going to be my next question to you because, i mean, given the problems we saw with the russian forces around kyiv and their failure to meet their initial objectives, have they been able to regroup, re-arm, renew? >> yeah, i think russia is facing three major problems. they have real challenges with manning the force. there have been indicators across the board that they have attempted to regenerate some of the forces they lost in the north and pushed them back in the east. i don't believe they've done it. and an indicator of that is the fact that we've now been in this pause, this so-called
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operational pause that russia has dictated, for almost two weeks now. if they were going to restart a -- an attack action in the east, they would have started it by now if their forces had been ready. it tells me that their manning is slow to come around. their related casualty levels already. they have attempted to do reconnaissance by force in this area. and ukraine has pushed them back. so, they're going to have manning problems. they're also continuing to have tactical leadership and generalship problems. we could talk about that all day long, but it's much greater than they experienced in phase one. and then finally, they're going to have some of the same problems in terms of logistically supporting their front lines. we're seeing some attacks going on within russia now. now, whether that's caused by local citizens who are protesting against their government or ukrainian special operations, i don't know. but that's going to affect russian logistics as well. >> general hertling, i really
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appreciate it. thank you. fascinating. coming up next, in the wake of the visit here from the secretaries of state and defense, austin -- secretary of defense austin, the promise to re-establish the american diplomatic presence here. we'll speak with former american ambassador to ukraine, william taylor. something we've spoken to throughout the invasion, heidi levine, whose images have said so much so eloquently bt this war. we'll talk to her ahead. allergies don't have to be scary. raying flonase daily stops your body from overreting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good
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waxed. natural. sensitive. new dove ultimate antiperspirant. our unique water based formula and 6x more glycerin. helps restore skin to its best condition. new dove ultimate. america's top diplomat and defense official visited here over the weekend. and in addition to meeting with ukraine's president zelenskyy and pledging that u.s. diplomats would soon be returning to kyiv, they made headlines at a subsequent press conference. secretary blinen saying russia has failed, his word, to subjugate ukraine. secretary austin said, we want to see russia weakened to the
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ki kinds of things it has done to ukraine. ambassador, thanks so much for joining us. how significant do you think was the visit by secretaries austin and blinken? and did it accomplish anything? >> anderson, i think it's very significant. i think it did accomplish things. it certainly made the point that the united states is broader than the rhetoric that we use. it brings things to the table. it brings weapons. it is providing weapons. and president zelenskyy has acknowledged that these heavier weapons that he's been asking for are now flowing. and president zelenskyy himself said it was important that the two secretaries be there. so, it was -- i think it was significant. it also demonstrated commitment, a long-term commitment that the united states has to ukraine. and the comments subsequently -- that is, we're going to be there. the united states is going to be there for as long as it takes. the ukrainians, we know, will fight. you were just talking about the
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mariupol heroism. it's incredible what they're doing. and that's a demonstration that the ukrainians will fight as long as they have the means to do that. so, that's what general austin, secretary austin, secretary blinken were there to demonstrate is we're going to be there to support them. >> we obviously know the biden administration's intention to provide $713 million in addition to military aid. beyond that, what needs to happen on a diplomatic level? >> it's not clear, anderson, that there's a diplomatic solution in the near term. president putin has given no indication that he's serious about negotiations. president zelenskyy has been trying, and his team have been down several times, both in turkey and on the border, even by video conference. they've been making some effort. however, he has also said -- president zelenskyy has also said, in the face of these
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atrocities, in the face of these war crimes, it's hard to negotiate with people like that. and so, the negotiation is bound to come at some point, probably when president putin realizes he's not going to win on the battlefield. his army is not doing well, as the general just described. the ukrainian military is doing very well, and they can continue to do that. and at that point, maybe president putin will figure it's time to sit down. but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen any time soon. >> what is the importance of -- i mean, is it just symbolic importance? are u.s. diplomats returning to ukraine this week? >> more than symbolic. it is -- it is important demonstration that we are there. we are in the capital. we're in -- and it will happen maybe in two steps. maybe it's back to lviv first, then back into kyiv and to the embassy. i understand -- i've talked to
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some of the diplomats and they're eeg tore get back to kyiv because it's more than symbolic. it is effective, especially in times of war, where the communication, the quick communication, and indeed the face-to-face communication is so important. and it's information going both ways. it's information coming from washington through our embassy to the ukrainians. it's also really important to have the ability for president zelenskyy and foreign minister kuleba, defense minister reznikov, to be able to speak directly and get their messages back to washington in a hurry. so, it is more than just symbolic. it can be very effective at increasing the speed and accuracy and indeed the connections that are important at this time. >> ambassador william taylor, appreciate your time. thank you. coming up, we're going to introduce you to a ukrainian volunteer who delivers much-needed medicine and food to the civilians who refuse to
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leave frontline areas in the east. later, "washington post" journalist heidi levine share what is she has documented on this now two-month-old invasion. fear no food. new poligrgrip power hold and seal. the more information i found, got me more curious. researching my family on ancestry has given me a purpose.
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...stranger things from netflix... ...the boys from prime video... ...hbo max... ...starz... ...and peacock. just say “watchathon” into your voice remote and get ready to watch! i love you! i love you! i love you all! in our last hour, clarissa ward brought you her story of paramedics in ukraine risking their lives to save others. there are others in ukraine
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risking their lives as well, trying to bring much-needed supplies to civilians living on the front lines who won't or can't leave their homes. sam kiley has that story. >> reporter: at 21, she is a war veteran. she's been a volunteer on ukraine's front lines of the donbas for five years. today, she's delivering medicine and food to villages within range of russian artillery. a new phase in vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine is underway. and it's sometimes hard to understand why people stay in frontline villages. >> translator: i'm asking people a specific question. are you ready to hear children crying and saying, mom, i'm scared to die? it gives me the creeps to hear them say that myself. >> reporter: russian forces have captured izium, a few miles to the north. they're slowly advancing south.
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russia's aim is to capture this territory. to do so, it needs to overrun this landscape. maria is heading toward them, about three miles from the latest reported russian forces and heavy shelling. she ignores air raid sirens. a family who had become friends are hanging on in their home, and she's bringing them good. on arrival, good news. they've agreed to pull out. a last run in the springtime garden. they ignore the town's sirens. >> translator: my sister woke up this morning and said we have to leave, so we packed up. we didn't want to leave until the last minute. but then something made her want to. so, we have to. >> reporter: it's an emotional wrench, but it's a relief. the importance of groups like maria are part of a volunteer
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army across ukraine, here in the frontline villages is not just humanitarian. it's political. it's about trying to hold on to as much ukrainian territory as possible for as long as possible. the lessons from bucha and other towns captured by russian is that many civilians may not survive occupation. a neighbor herself, frightened and confused, still refuses to go. she's got a job at the local power plant, joining ukraine's millions of refugees, risks her life. >> translator: it's simply genocide of the ukrainian people. i don't know how else to explain it to you. >> translator: we're not planning to leave here. this is my homeland, and my relatives are here. i cannot leave anywhere here. my eldly grand mother is almost 80 and cannot walk. i cannot leave her. >> reporter: not for anyone in this family.
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tens of thousands of people are staying on in their homes across this region. in a nearby church, orthodox easter service are dominated by prayers for peace. but the unholy ghost of war looms heavily here. >> sam joins us now from kramatorsk. the volunteers you spoke with, they must be scared for their own safety. >> reporter: oh, they're very scared. very frequently they come under artillery fire. there's very small, very low levels of small arms fire here, indeed that's been the characteristic of this war in general but particularly in this phase, anderson. this is an artillery duel going on, particularly in the east, just north of where i am, where i was with maria there, we could hear regular detonations from incoming and outgoing artillery.
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just now, as dawn is breaking here in kramatorsk, there's been an uptick in artillery exchanges. and that's typical of the soviet style of doing war, which is to bombard villages into oblivion very often and try to take over the landscape, a landscape that will be devoid of human beings. and it is being wiped off the face of the earth in terms of the culture of ukraine, which is why people like maria talk of -- use this term "genocide," anderson. >> sam kiley, appreciate it. be careful. earlier i spoke to someone who spent a great deal of time chronicling the her rims and horrors of this war. also the fears of displaced ukrainians she has met in her travels. "washington post" photo journalist heidi levine. heidi, thanks so much for joining us. you've been in ukraine since february 20th. you've moved to the east of the country, as russian forces are focusing on the area. how is working there different than what you were experiencing
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in kyiv? >> well, it's a different pace so far. it's -- you know, access to the front lines is quite difficult and challenging. and we're hoping to have access to the front line. but what we've really been concentrating on is in zaporizhzhia, there's a refugee center. and we are meeting people that are coming out of mariupol and villages surrounding mariupol. and people are just coming out shell shocked. >> yeah, i mean, the images you took of the people getting off that bus in mariupol and the story that went along with it, it was so moving. the reporters you were working with were saying that when the buses arrived and the doors opened, a lot of the people just kind of sat on the bus sort of in stunned silence, just watching the officials who were there waiting for them, sort of stunned that they were out of
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this horrific scene in mariupol. >> and that's really true because even when convoys are moving, they don't even know if they're actually going to reach ukrainian territory. they don't know if they're going to get shot on by russian forces. they could get turned back. we've even heard of people being taken off the convoy and that people are missing. so, you can only imagine what it's like for these people to actually get to an area that they feel safe, that they're actually fed. the support that they're getting is amazing. they're getting fed. there is clothes available, toys for the children. >> and for some of them, it's the first time they've had solid food. according to your account, some of them were eating dry pasta
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for days in basements. >> exactly. i mean, people are too afraid to go outside because they could easily be shot. >> you were also in a town northwest of kyiv. and in the report that went along with your photographs, i mean, it -- you tell the story of this man who helped his neighbors, helped shelter them, ended up being shot, and his body left outside on the street for days, his family looking at it every day but were too afraid to go out and retrieve it because they were afraid they would get shot. >> exactly. in fact, we met with the son, and he showed us where his father was buried behind the house in the backyard. and he's hoping that he will be able to exhume the body and give it a proper burial. but also you have to understand that his family, his mother, is
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in another part of ukraine. so, families are so separated that chances are when there is a funeral, none of the family members can even attend. in vorzel, i met a woman. her name was julia, 37 years old. and she told me that a russian soldier tried to rape her. it was really difficult for her to speak. i think it was helpful that i was a woman, and i really tried to make her comfortable. and she told me that he came to her door of her house armed with this gun and in uniform and tried to get her to go to the shed in the yard and asked her to sit down inside the shed and tried to touch her. and luckily her dog followed her
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with her and parentally scared the soldier, who called her a very feisty one. and she told the soldier that he can shoot her in the head. and then he can only do what he wants with her body. and she managed to escape and hide in a neighbor's basement for days until he was -- his unit was -- had moved on. >> well, your work, your photographs and the work of all your colleagues helps me understand what's happening and opens my eyes. and i'm sure it does to millions of people around the world. heidi levine, i really appreciate your time. thank you. >> thank you so much for having me. well coming up, with more than 3 million refugees having fled to poland, many non-ukrainian refugees are finding they face different treatment when they cross the border. details on that next.
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according to the latest u.n. data, more than 5.2 million refugees have fled ukraine since the invasion began just two months ago. the life of refugee is of course
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not easy, especially for non-ukrainians fleeing the country, who haven't found the same welcome in poland as others. erica hill has the story. >> reporter: after fleeing the war in ukraine, a chance to just be a kid. >> she says here she's grateful. >> reporter: poland has welcomed nearly 3 million people since the war started, yet not everyone is greeted with open arms. >> we are more open for the slavic people. >> reporter: while ukrainians arriving in poland can stay for 18 months, work legally, and have access to health care and social services, non-ukrainians can't. these three women knew they could help. >> they have only two weeks about their next steps. i can't imagine actually how to do it when you're a war refugee. >> reporter: overnight they started a shelter for
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non-ukrainian refugees run by a catholic ngo in poland. with space for 70 guests, they're turning people away daily. >> and from the beginning, it's full. >> reporter: joe ellen daniel, students from nigeria, were studying management in kyiv when the war broke out and were reluctant to leave. >> i would love to go back to ukraine. it's a great country. >> you told me when you were looking to leave that it was harder for you because of the way you look, because of the color of your skin. >> yeah, to be honest, yes, it is a challenge. >> reporter: they finally left two weeks ago and are now trying to figure out what is next. >> we're also trying to support the workers, organizing the next steps. sometimes it's a trip to other countries, but also we try to find flats or apartments, places to stay. >> reporter: volunteers, at least a dozen a day, keep the shelter running and help connect
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refugees to essential services. among them, this 27-year-old, an i.t. professional who fled afghanistan seven months ago. >> i do anything that i can do. it's very good for me because i don't have any other job. and it's good idea to spend time here. >> reporter: this effort relies on donations from clothing, toiletries to food and flowers. even the space which has now welcomed more than 500 people from 36 countries has donated, a generous offer that runs out at the end of may. they're hoping to move before then, to ensure these refugees have somewhere to go. >> how long do you think your help will be needed? >> we should be ready to invite new refugees until the end of the next year. >> reporter: a challenge this team is determined to meet. >> i have a feeling that we are really helping those people who are here. we cannot, you know, solve our
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problems. but this is a small part that we can do. >> erica joins me now from warsaw. is that shelter losing its space at the end of may? what happens? >> yeah. yeah, they are. so, when i say, they launched the shelter overnight, it did literally happen overnight. these three women worked with this organization, kick international. but i should point out they all have full-time jobs and families. they found this space, which was donated to them for three months. but at the end of may, the owner needs it back. it actually serves as a camp over winter and summer break. so, they'll need those dorm rooms. so, they're currently searching for another location. they're hoping not only to find one, but to find one that's larger. this has a capacity for 70 people. they're hoping to maybe find a space that could hold as many as 150 at a time. >> and how long typically do people stay? >> so, it depends on the person. and they're coming really from all over and all different
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situations. initially when they opened the shelter, their plan was that they would give people three days. so, they could stay for three days, then they needed to move on. they realized they couldn't just kick people out. they're turning people away every day. as for how long they stay, it depends on their situation. they have students from all over who had been studying in ukraine, family as well. part of it depends on them lining up what's next, whether they're trying to go home or perhaps to another country in western europe or trying to find a way in poland. and that really dictates how long they need help in that shelter. coming up, an election outcome that impacts the global response of the invasion. france's president emmanuel macron has defeated his ocomponent. she's still vowing to stay in the political fight. what that might mean for the war next.
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( ♪ ) ( ♪ )
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( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) france among the nato nations playing a big supporting
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role to ukraine this invasion. that's why the world has been watching as presidential election yesterday very closely. the candidate running against incumbent was openly supportive of vladimir putin. she didn't win by a lot. she still could impact the ukraine policy down the road however. we have more. >> reporter: as macron became the first french president in 20 years to win a second term, the european flag served as a reminder of what had been at stake. >> merci. >> his father right rival le pen had promised to defund europe institutions. a position apparently backed by 42% of voters. >> french leaders as for the european leaders, this result bares witness to the great mistrust of the french people towards them. which they cannot ignore and the
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widely shared aspiration for a great change. >> it's a change vladimir putin has been backing for years. receiving the far right candidate just ahead of the 2017 french election. and last week, the jailed russian opposition leaders navalny weighed in. urging the french to back macron and describing the russian bank that lent le pen party $10 million in 2014. as a well known money laundering agency. created at the instigation of putin in a tweet just hours ahead of the french candidates debate. >> you depend on russian power. you depend on mr. putin. >> i am a completely free woman. >> le pen insists the loan was strictly a financial arrangement that her party is reimbursing in full. she remains cautious about further sanctions against moscow. >> to pretend the french or other european peoples could absorb the consequences of a total cut off of russian gas,
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oil or raw materials is simply irresponsible. >> macron has gone further than just sanctions. sending 100 million euros of weapons to kyiv. something le pen had said she would be prudent about. she also announced she wanted a strategic between nato and russia. in the end, neither her positions on nato and the eu nor or proximity to moscow prevented her from achieving a historic score. coming within five and a half million vote of macron. she's looking to choose legislative elections to deprive him of his governing majority. which could present challenges for frances continued support to ukraine. and le pen is far from alone in europe. with allies among the blocks far right and euro skeptic parties. many of them also historically close to moscow. by monday morning she arrived at headquarters, defeated but
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unbowed. vowing to start a fresh fight for her own vision of the future. melissa bell, cnn, paris. we'll be right back. allergieies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase dailyly stos your body from overreacting to allergenens al season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. waxed. natural. sensitive. new dove ultimate antiperspirant. our unique wat based formula and 6x more glycerin. helps restore skin to its best condition. new dove ultate.
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stay with cnn for the latest from ukraine and the news continues let's turn it over to don. and don lemon tonight. >> it's been like a month since you have been there. you're there for a second time. you are in lviv and now kyiv. any noticeable differences? what's stands out to you? >> you know, as you said the last time i was in lviv for three weeks. and it was intense obviously in kyiv. it's a lot different now certainly. and it's a lot more -- more people returning to kyiv. life returning tme