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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  April 27, 2022 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com if there is a single thread running through russia's invasion of this country, it is brutality. brutality and inhumanity on a scale really not seen -- not in europe at least -- since the second world war. we've certainly seen with our own eyes what so many ukrainians have endured over the last two months, and we've seen it in the eyes of too many people here to count. tonight recognition of that reality from a specific way from america's ambassador at large for global criminal justice. >> we now have credible information that a russian military unit executed ukrainians who were attempting
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to surrender, rather than take them into custody. if true, this would be a violation of core principles of the laws of war. the prohibition against the summary execution of civilians and of combatants by virtue of surrender, injury, or other forms of inkapsation. these images and reports suggest atrocities are not the result of rogue units or individuals. they rather reveal a deeply disturbing pattern of systemic abuse across all areas where russia's forces are engaged. >> simple message to russia's political leadership, she said, is this. the world is watching. which brings us now to cnn's nick paton walsh. but a warning first, his story tonight is very tough to stomach. nick, talk about what you have been seeing and hearing. >> reporter: well, certainly to the south of where i'm standing, there are a number of villages, particularly now, in the cross
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hairs of a renewed russian offensive pushing north to where i am. some of them, though, were held in fact earlier by russia prior to their liberation by the ukrainian military. and one story we heard involves the behavior of one particular russian unit in a village not far from where i'm standing. and as you pointed out, we should remind people this is a graphic story of quite horrifying content involving the sexual assault of a 16-year-old pregnant girl by russian troops who were only briefly in the village where she was living. again, i should warn you, this report does contain some disturbing content. >> reporter: it's from these gentle shrugs of villages, lazy and clean, in the green expanses of kherson region that some of this war's ugliest crimes are being dragged into the light.
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this is dasher. she's 16 and was six months pregnant when just over a month ago, russian forces came to her village here. her family were in the basement sheltering from bombs, the cold, and the russians shooting in the air or at cars, she said. at dusk, they brought the children out to the kitchen to eat, where there were two soldiers, one drunk. [ speaking foreign language ] >> reporter: his sober colleague then came in and told the drunk attacker to stop to no avail and
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left. >> reporter: by then, night had fallen in the cold house. >> reporter: she heard the r russians say her attacker's name was blue. he was from donetsk. >> some of the soldiers in that unit were disgusted by what happened and tried to move her and part of her family away to safety. that began a process in which
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russian soldiers seemed to try to get her to go back on the claims she'd made. >> reporter: two days later, she was taken to a russian paratrooper commander who, she said, began shouting at her like her attacker had. [ speaking foreign language ] report it seems they did believe her, but the fate of her rapist remains unclear. while we can't independently verify her harrowing story, ukrainian prosecutors told us they have investigated the case and confirmed this attack, which they said was a war crime. but like so much here, the question why is the one without a humane palpable answer.
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[ speaking foreign language ] >> reporter: there are lives here that you can see russia has changed forever, but also those whose trauma sits beneath the surface and lives on. >> nick joins us now. it's just a horrifying story. i know you reached out to the russian ministry of defense about this allegation. what did they say? >> reporter: they have not responded, anderson. in the past i think they have suggested such claims are part of a pattern to try and paint russian forces in a bad light, but frankly the systemic nature of the claims we've been hearing, so similar, in fact the conversations we've had with the
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ukrainian prosecutors' offices here say who they through the victims' testimony and the investigative work they've done have confirmed they story, which as you heard in that report, believe is a war crime, anderson. >> payton walsh, just horrifying. given that report, given everything we have seen and heard for ourselves here and in light of tonight's new american assessment of russian culpability already for war crimes and potentially genocide as well, we're taking a step back and looking at what this all adds up to. which is why we're joined tonight by fareed zakaria, host of cnn's "fareed zakaria gps." reported on allegations of rape, other war crimes in places like bucha, where we saw just citizens on the street day after day being shot to death. while they may all have the affect of terrorizing the local population, they're also galvanizing much of the world
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against russia. is there any reason to think that global outrage will have any sort of impact on vladimir putin's course of action? it certainly hasn't thus far. >> it would have an impact on his course of action. the only thing putin understands is power. the only thing he would understand is military defeat in the south, not even economic pressure, not even economic sanctions, particularly not while we are sending $350 billion a year to vladimir putin to pay for oil and gas and coal. but it does have an affect, anderson, in setting a kind of moral standard of outrage, bearing witness, holding this testimony for the possible prosecution at some point. there have to be standards. there have to be norms even when they cannot be enforced. and i think the reason this jars all of this is it reminds us,
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perhaps something we needed to be reminded, which was this can happen anywhere. human beings can be brutal and venal and murderous and barbaric. you know, there's a sense in which, as you know, a lot of people outside the west ask, why are you so surprised? this has been happening in yemen or syria or places or afghanistan? well, the reason is europe was really founded on the idea that it was -- it had overcome these pathologies, you know, this murderous past. and, you know, it went through the worst of it in world war ii. and then we were reminded that uk have a very advanced, very civi civilized country -- so-called civilized country like germany -- which in many ways led the world in science and industry. and murderous acts. well, we're seeing it again. russia is a modern country. it's a relatively wealthy country.
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it's, in some sense, is part of europe. but you are seeing a kind of level of brutality and mayhem and really just sheer evil that should remind us all that, you know, being rich and powerful doesn't mean that you are somehow absolved from, you know, from normal -- from -- you can still be very evil. and i think we have lost the language. people often say to me, is putin irrational? is he ill? because they don't want to confront -- he may not be irrational. he may not be ill. he's just evil and evil still exists in the world. >> the move by russia today of cutting off its natural gas to poland, to bulgaria, it's obviously a warning to other countries, which are vulnerable to this. are you surprised this hasn't happened sooner? >> actually, no, anderson, because it's a very -- it's a
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dramatic move. it's a drastic move. and it suggests to me that the russians are feeling the heat. russia has been very careful through all its turmoils -- the 2014 invasion of ukraine, 2008 invasion of georgia -- they always kept the gas lines running because they understood that their money, what finances putin clep to cattic war machine is the money coming in. and they wanted to always seem to be a reliable supplier of energy, in return for which they expected to get money. the fact that they are now, you know, withholding using energy as a weapon tells you that they're in tough shape, that they understand that the next stage may be perhaps not a full embargo on russian energy but some reductions. so, they're trying to play -- you know, to kind of play back, punish the pole, send a signal to the european union.
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but it is not a sign of strength. it is a sign they are hurting because they have never done this before. and it tells you this is the weapon we should be thinking about more and more. we can get at russia's oil revenues, gas revenues, coal revenues, that is what flows directly to putin. stop taking all these yachts from russian billionaires. i don't care one way or the other where you take them. it has no affect on putin. putin doesn't depend on these people for power. they depend on him. we have the causal -- we have the causality. stop the money that is going directly to vladimir putin to fund his war machine. >> fareed zakaria. appreciate it, fareed. thanks. coming up next, new reporting on what went on behind the scenes in the prisoner swap that brought freedom for american trevor reed after more than two and a half years in russian captivity. and the cold war chill that's the backdrop. later also my conversation with the photographer who's captured some of the most
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dellable images of the war ahead.
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. after two and a half years in russian captivity, two hunger strikes, trevor reed, an american marine vet is homeward bound. how it came about is like something out of a cold war spy movie. the fact it happened at all at a moment of such powerful cold war vibes is something in itself. first, cnn's kylie atwood joins us. officials from inside and outside the u.s. government had been working to get reed released for years. what details have you learned? >> reporter: yeah, this was a problem for years because trevor reed was detained in 2019. so, it's been a few years that u.s. government officials have been focused on this case. but over the last few months, that is really when the wheels started turning on this. and when u.s. officials say they really started working on
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something that they could see an end, this happening, this release actually happening. i think it's cigsignificant to note, as you did, anderson, this comes as the ukraine war is raging on. so, there was not a lot of positive momentum or positive talk about this release actually happening. it was quite surprising when it was announced this morning. but i think biden administration officials were very clear in saying they pulled this off because they had limited conversations with russia in a specific channel about the release of trevor reed. and those conversations didn't also include anything having to do with the war in ukraine. but this release is not going to change their position when it comes to being critical of russia for that invasion of ukraine. and we should also note that trevor reed's health is one of the key factors here. over the last year or so, he had deteriorating health, as you mentioned. he had covid-19 last year.
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his family said that he was experiencing symptoms of tuberculosis. so, they were quite concerned about that. and administration officials say that that is one of the things that drove the urgency of getting him released. >> clearly his family is overjoyed. >> reporter: overjoyed. they talked about the fact they got a call last week saying something positive may be coming. and every time they got a phone call, they were on pins and needles. that was their words describing it -- just hoping that it was the call that they finally got this morning. but one interesting thing here is that there is another american who is also an ex-marine who was also wrongfully detained in russia, and he wasn't released today. that's paul wheelen. and the family of trevor reed feels really connected to paul wheelen and his family. just listen to what trevor reed's parents said today about the fact they were so connected to paul willen, they didn't even know if trevor would leave if
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paul whalen wasn't by his side. >> we're hoping the waylon family is going to have a reunion soon. >> we believe at one point before our government started considering this trade, which i think the russians had basically been directly or indirectly suggesting for a year or two, that if they were to take our son and not follow with -- not wanting to leave another marine. >> paul wheelen's family obviously welcoming trevor reed coming back to the united states but concerned about their son. brittney griner, the wnba star, is still also wrongfully detained in russia. >> thank you. want to get perspective on this and how it fits into the larger confrontation between the u.s. and russia. another thinly veiled threat from vladimir putin.
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joining us former national security analyst, james clapper. appreciate you joining us. what significance, if any, should people draw from the fact that a prisoner exchange was able to grow now when relations certainly between russia and the united states are certainly at their worst? >> well, anderson, it's quite significant that somehow we can -- both we and the russians are able to insulate the animosity and bad blood surrounds the russian invasion of ukraine and still get on with other business. and it's like the start agreement, which is the one remaining arms control agreement that we have with russia, which both we and they are still in nominal compliance with. so, i think it's on balance a good thing. and hopefully this will, at some point, lead to further releases. but the russians, above all, are being pragmatists here.
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and when they figure it's in their interests, i think trevor reed's declining health probably had a lot to do with their decision to make the trade. so, it's a good thing that we can still get on with some business apart from the invasion. >> vladimir putin made another veiled nuclear threat today saying, quote, if someone tends to interfere with what's going on inside, they must know that constitutes a strategic threat to russia. they might know that responsed counterstrikes will be lightning faszed. i wonder what your reaction to that is. >> just to pick up on a point that fareed zakaria made in the last segment, i think this reflects russian insecurity. it's almost like putin needs a rhetorical security blanket making threats like this. and the frequency with which they are occurring tells me that
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they're kind of in -- they realize they're kind of in a jam. and i think it's not in this -- it's in the same category as suspending the gas shipments to poland and bulgaria because they're in -- they're in dire straits. so, to me, more and more and the frequency of these, whether it's by putin himself or lavrov or whomever these threats, which to me are kind of hollow, if that's the red line, you know, we're exceeding it many times over. i think it has more to do with the psychology of putin and russia. and he needs to assure his own people, parliamentarians he was talking to and for that matter, himself, that russia is still a great power. and, of course, remind everyone else of that, specifically the united states. >> the russian officials
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reported this fire at ammunition depot this morning inside the russian border about 50 miles away from the border with ukraine. blasts were also reported at two other sites inside russia around the same time. ukrainian officials, they haven't claimed responsibilities for the incidents or similar ones over the past few weeks. one of the ukrainian officials did mention something about karma being, you know, tough. what does it mean, though, for this war if ukraine is striking targets inside russia? >> well, i think the question is how much of that can russia tolerate? i also think it's, you know, why should russia get a pass just because they have troops over the border who are being supplied particularly from the logistical complex with the russians? well, the ukrainians see that, understand that, and understand the impact that doing that has
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on the pressure they're under along the battle line. so, when you -- i thought the kind of whimsical statement of the ukrainian official was actually kind of cool. >> director clapper, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. up next, i'll speak with the photographer who took this haunting photo, showing the harsh reality many ukrainians now face in this war. allergies don'n't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stopss your body from overreacting to allergens alll season long. psst! psst! flonase all good.
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as the war in ukraine enters its third month, we're reminded of deadly attacks of civilians. we're also reminded of the struggles troops trace as they put their lives on the line to defend their homeland, communities, and families. that is the story of this ukrainian soldier, shows him standing over his twin brother's open coffin, after he was killed this month. the brothers volunteers to fight just two weeks after the invasion began, leaving behind their family. the twins are just 21 years old. more on this from the photographer on assignment for the "new york times" who took those images, showing us the reality of this war. this photo you took is really
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haunting. these twin young men, born 15 minutes apart according to their mom, now one of them is gone. can you just talk a little bit about what you saw and how this came about, you being there at the funeral? >> yes, sure. i mean, as this war grinds on now into its third month, there's a steady flow of funerals here in lviv, in western ukraine, where i'm based. and i've been covering them for the last couple of weeks, among the other stories i've been doing. and this one is a little different from the other ones in the sense that the family was from a different region. so, it was smaller than the other funerals, which often gather hundreds of people in one of the large cathedrals here. this one, there was no church ceremony. it was just straight to the cemetery. and this is a cemetery that is now overflowed. so, they've started burying the soldiers in a field adjacent to
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the cemetery. and the cemetery has really become a place where parents are burying their children rather than the other way around. and on this occasion, it was an open casket funeral. with the military funerals, you don't always see that. but as the casket was placed on a pedestal in front of the open grave, the lid was removed and one by one, the family members stepped forward to pay their final respects. and one of the family members who did that was his twin brother. and he was very stoic during the whole thing. he didn't show any emotion. he just stood there for a moment, placed a palm on his brother's forehead and then stepped away and kind of moved into the background of the handful of family members and other soldiers who were there. quite strikingly, his mom was exactly the opposite. she actually came up to me in the middle of the funeral and the burial and began to talk to
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me about her son, who she said had, during the first two weeks of the war, hidden and lived in the metro station in kyiv, eventually followed here to lviv in the west. the whole family was from the dnipro region, which is kind of central eastern ukraine. so, they didn't have a lot of people here to mark the death of egor. but it seemed like by telling me much of his life story, how he was a champion marksman, how he had gone to volunteer for the army and initially they said no, we only need people with experience. he brought up his skill with a weapon. and they said, okay, then maybe you can be of use. and she went on to tell me that when he volunteered, she asked him, are you sure? and his response to her, as she explained was, well, if not me,
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then who? she just did not want to stop talking about her son throughout the funeral. and it was really quite moving. she actually -- she came forward me and she embraced me. and as a journalist, you often try to maintain a little bit of distance. but in this case, i embraced her back. and just let her tears fall on my shoulder for that moment. >> you know, you never know how people are going to react. when a mother loses a son, often they want the world to know about -- about their child, about who that person was, that they're not just a statistic. they're not just somebody, a casualty of war that they -- they want you to know -- they want us all to know about who they were. do you -- do you think his brother will return to combat? >> i would imagine, yes, that the brother -- he didn't want to
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talk. he was very resonant. and he actually kind of waved me off a little bit as i was taking pictures. i felt the need to respect that distance. so, he didn't want to talk. i didn't have the chance to ask him that question. but i would expect that, yes, he will continue to fight, and he will do whatever he can to contribute to the war effort on behalf of his country. >> well, i'm so glad that his mom saw you and wanted you there and wanted you to know about her son so that you could tell us about him as well. i really appreciate your work in the "new york times," extraordinary. thank you. >> thank you as well. the stark reality of the war that we can all see. then there are the conspiracy theories that vladimir putin tries to convince people to see. how much is he starting to body his own disinformation? russian media historian joins me with his assessment next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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earlier here in kyiv i spoke with u.n. secretary general antonio guterres. he met with vladimir putin in mo moscow yesterday, calling that conversation very useful.
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>> because it was possible to tell president putin the same thing i say in new york or i will be able to say here in kyiv, which means that the russian invasion is against the charter of the united nations. it is a violation against the integrity of ukraine. and this war must end as quickly as possible. and at the same time, our concerns about violations of international humanitarian law, human rights law, possibility of war crimes. >> vladimir putin, for his part, has denied russian troops have committed any war crimes in ukraine. in an essay for the "new york times," a historian of russian media makes the case that since the war began, any gap between the propaganda and kremlin policies is now at a vanishing point. also author of "fortress russia:
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conspiracy theories in the post-soviet war." i spoke to him earlier. >> thanks so much for joining us. i want to talk about your "new york times" op-ed in just a moment. vladimir putin said russia and ukraine achieved serious negotiations in istanbul but the situation changed, in his words, dramatically following the allegations against russia of war crimes in bucha. does it come as any surprise to you that putin is completely denying responsibility for what happened in bucha? >> not at all. i think it is done specifically to muddy the wars again. there is a clear war lobby in russia that probably pressures putin and delivers reports and certain information so he can make a decision. and certainly the massacres in
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bucha really changed the rules of the game. first of all because it's pretty hard to deny what's been done by the russian army. and to the narratives, what happened in bucha on the side of the kremlin were constantly changing. if you look at what's being said by the kremlin in the first days after the events in bucha, the kremlin spokesmen were saying, look, it's all staged. it's fake. there were bodies that were moving on the footage. now they've changed this narrative again. >> your op-ed for the "new york times" is fascinating because it examines conspiracy theories that vladimir putin has essentially weaponized. that always existed in russia, but that putin didn't himself, didn't really seem to embrace or promote. that was left to others. but now you write, conspiratorial thinking has taken complete hold of the country from top to bottom, now seems to be the motivating force behind the kremlin's decisions. and mr. putin, who previously kept his distance from
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conspiracy theories, leaving their circulation to state media and second rate politicians, is their chief promoter. can you just talk about these conspiracy theories which really center on the west and russia as a victim of the west? >> yeah. well, it all start in the 2000s. first of all the failure to secure the victory in ukraine in 2004 and 2005. that's the start of kremlin's conspiracy theories. they spread to the framing of the russian opposition as the main enemy and the main ally of the west, of the u.s., first and foremost. and that tracks towards lgbtq community that is portrayed as the dangerous that brainwashes the kids. and we know all this anti-lgbt rhetoric is coming in a very conspiratorial way, starting with the pussy riots in 2012.
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and again it comes back in the period after the annexation of crimea as the main talent of the russian ideology. there is nothing left of the soviet ideology. russia is a very ka pitch list new liberal country. there is one tenant that comes from the soviet ideology, and that the hate towards the west. and it turns into paranoid hate of the west after 2014 that we see is really creeping into legislation, into the amendments to the russian constitution in 2020. but also as showed into the textbooks of russian officers who all sustain these guidebooks. they say that russian officers
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are protected russia, and i quote, from the satanic world order. that phrase should relate a lot to your american audience. but in russia that's a novelty. but it's been engrained into the russian ideology. >> and these conspiracy theories, they are believed by many in russia. i mean, i saw some, you know, poles on attitudes toward gay people in russia after putin started pushing them, and they work. >> yeah, totally. they have very powerful element of social mobilization. it's not only about the gay people. it is about the hate towards the u.s. it's the hate towards the uk. it's very -- it's a very general enemy. and it's very abstract one. and as we can see, for example, today, putin again gave a speech in front of the mps and he
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repeated again and again, russians fighting the global conspiracy. russians are hated around the world. and we are doing the right thing by attacking ukraine because now we are in war with the west. so, it is the official ideology now. >> i appreciate your time. thank you so much. really fascinating. >> thank you so much, anderson. thank you. coming up, we'll turn to the battle for the future of the gop. how lawmakers are reacting after top house republican kevin mccarthy is heard criticizing his fellow republicans following january 6th. the audio nenext.
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tonight, house minority leader kevin mccarthy is facing backlash following a new audio leak first reported by the new york times. in the wake of the january 6th attack, he was worried his far right colleagues would incite more violence.
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gop internal struggles as they try to focus on the midterm. >> reporter: critical words about congressman matt gaetz and others caught on tape. >> he's putting people in jeopardy. we saw what people were doing in the capitol. these people came prepared. we don't want to look back and think we caused something or we missed something and someone got hurt. >> reporter: this morning republicans huddled behind closed doors. he said he was offering up ideas. he never acted on much of what was discussed. his speech led to a standing ovation. publicly, most members of the conference say they are ready to move on. >> i am more concerned not about the past but about the future. >> reporter: even those he
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criticized. >> are you going to talk to him about it? >> i don't see any need to. >> reporter: the party is not in universal agreement. some members of the far right are raising concerns like gaetz who refused to weigh in. >> i haven't heard the tapes. >> reporter: then unleashed on mccarthy on twitter saying this is the behavior of weak men, not leaders. the former chair of the freedom caucus who said mccarthy's words caught on tape could lead to bigger rifts between various wings of the gop. >> we have our leader that's negotiating with liz cheney on whether he should encourage president trump to resign or not. it becomes a huge trust issue for me. >> reporter: while mccarthy attempts to hold his membership together, democrats arguing that this whole episode demonstrates that mccarthy has a problem with the truth. >> it's a 5 point play book.
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number one, lie. number two, lie. number three, lie. number four, lie. number five, lie again. >> reporter: mccarthy critics like adam kinsinger claims the audio reveal who is the leader. >> he defends people pushing false narratives. >> reporter: this will put mccarthy, bring his attention to the january 6th select me. they already sent him letter asking him to cooperate with their investigation. he turned them down. they have not ruled out a subpoena for kevin mccarthy. we have learned that rudy giuliani, has agreed to appear
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before the committee. that meeting could happen as soon as next month. anderson. >> appreciate it. we'll be right back. allergies don't have to be scary. sprayiying flonase daily stos your body from overreacacting to allergens al season long. psst! psst! flonase alall goo. bath fitter doesn't just fit your bath. we fit your life. when you're tired of looking at your tired old bath, we fit your style, with hundreds of design options. when a normal day is anything
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the news continues right now. i want to hand it over to don. >> how do you describe the actions of the man who captured those images in bucha? he risked his life just by taking the photos. >> it's really extraordinary. this is a -- just one block in bucha. some 300 people were killed but 7 people were shot to death on that street over the course of several days. had soldiers scene him video taping o