and so our humble team saves the day by working together. on miro. the news continues. let's hand it over to sara let's hand it over to sara sidner and "cnn tonight". -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com i'm sara sidner. a major development tonight following the bombshell testimony from the trump former white house aide. the january 6th committee has subpoenaed pat cipollone to compel him to testify. he's been a key witness for the testimony, but resisted speaking for the panel. the committee claims its investigation has revealed evidence cipollone repeatedly raised legal and other concerns about then-president trump's

activities on january 6, 2021, and in the days that preceded and needs to hear from him on the record as they note other former white house counsels have done in other congressional investigations. there are, of course, privilege arguments about him coming forward and testifying about exchanges with a then-sitting president of the united states, who was his client, so it's unclear whether he will comply with the subpoena. but tonight a lawyer familiar with cipollone's thinking tells cnn he will probably agree to a tr transcribed interview limited to specific topics to avoid attorney/client issue. what we do know is there was tuesday's stunning testimony from cassidy hutchinson, a former aide to then-chief of staff mark meadows. she alleged cipollone had very

serious concerns about donald trump's actions on january 6th. >> mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> there really has never been testimony quite like it in american history. tonight the questions are only growing about where it could lead. hutchinson testified donald trump knowingly sent an armed mob to the capitol and even wanted to join them at one point. did he know there was potential for violence when he said this? >> after this, we're going to walk down -- and i'll be there with you -- we're going to walk down to the capitol. you'll never take back our country with weakness. you have to show strength, and you have to be strong. >> hutchinson alleged trump was

furious metal detectors prevented some of his armed supporters from being let into his rally because he wanted his crowd to be as big as it could. and she testified that he and meadows were told about the weapons. >> i remember tony mentioning knives, guns in the form of pistols and rifles, bear spray, body armor, spears, and flag poles. i remember distinctly mark not looking up from his phone. and then he looked up and said, have you talked to the president? and tony said, yes, sir, he's aware of things. he said, all right, good. >> he asked tony if tony had informed the president -- >> yes. >> -- and tony said, yes he had. >> we've now heard several accounts that people at the white house, trump included, were warned about the danger faced by those in congress that day. so, the biggest question, is there evidence, enough evidence, from her testimony to charge the

former president with a crime? has she raised the stakes for cipollone to testify, not to mention mark meadows? we will -- will we ever hear from either of them? they likely hold the master keys to bwhat this panel is trying t unlock. let's take it to my first guests who have very valuable insight. lisa farah griffin was a trump communications director and was friends with cassidy hutchinson. also with us, john dean, the former white house counsel who made history with his testimony exposing revelations about president nixon during the watergate hearings that ultimately led to nixon's resignation. thank you both for being here first of all. >> thank you. >> all right. i'm going to start with you, john. these are big revelations. how does the subpoena change the considerations for pat cipollone on doing more than that informal meeting that he's already had

with the committee and coming forward and testifying publicly? >> it forces the issue. he's got to make a decision. is he going to fight it? is he going to do what his predecessor did, which tied it up for two years, the issue of don mcgahn testifying? or is he going to work out some kind of cooperative deal and negotiate some terms where he can testify? now, i think it's very important under the rules of ethics that he testify as well because as it appears to an outsider right now, he's part of an ongoing conspiracy that is illegal. and there's no evidence that he has withdrawn from it. he's advised against it. but has he gotten out of it? he needs to come forward for a multitude of reasons, including saving our democracy. >> that is really stark, especially coming from you, someone who is in the hot seat back since 1973. alissa, let's turn to you.

we have heard a lot about that former white house counsel already. i want to -- we've heard his name over and over and over again. and this is just a sample of the many times we've heard cipollone's name, showing just how important his testimony would be. >> white house counsel pat cipollone. mr. cipollone. mr. cipollone. mr. cipollone. i see pat cipollone barrels down the hallway. >> pat cipollone said, yeah, this is a murder/suicide pact. >> i called pat cipollone. >> mr. trump's former white house counsel pat cipollone. >> a former white house counsel, white house counsel at the time, is a big deal. they know a lot and they know what's legally right and wrong. and they're supposed to be advising the president. and everyone knows that. so, how would hearing directly from him have an impact or would it have an impact on those still supporting donald trump? >> i think his is the most important testimony that could

be gotten by the committee. there's no chance you're going to see him raise his hand before a camera the way cassidy hutchinson was brave enough to do. i trust cassidy hutchinson's testimony word for word. i know her, i served with her. the lines she quoted pat cipollone says, i can hear him saying that. i worked with him only about eight months, but it sounds like him. he is going to be able to confirm if that is what he in fact said and why he said it. i would expect some level of cooperation. john dean could speak to this better than me. he was the president's attorney, but some of this goes so far beyond the scope. it's talking about overturning the election, overturning the democracy, and i think it's critical he testify. >> i want to talk to you quickly about something you said about cassidy. you said, i trust what she says implicitly. she has no reason to lie, in your mind. let me ask you about something that has come up, and that is a

lot of people are jumping, especially those who support donald trump, about testimony she heard. it was hearsay, but she told the committee she heard did the tried to jump over one of his security agents and try to turn the car back to go back to the capitol on january 6th because he wanted to be a part of it, even looking like he might choke one of his secret service agents. they are now pushing back against, that, the secret service. who do you believe? >> i believe cassidy completely, and let me tell you why. this was the only part of her roughly 90-minute testimony that relied on hearsay. it is one thing i have to guess the committee deliberately had to let her share because they're going to build on it in further hearings. cassidy, i trust her word. she was there under oath. tony tony ornato, who told her this story, has not denied it. if he testifies before the

committee, i don't think he would purger himself, but i have been on the receiving end of him saying i lied about something. i've seen him to be somebody who's willing to lie for the former president. cassidy has everything to lose and she's doing what's right for her country. and the rest of her testimony is going to be able to be corroborated, i believe. >> that's a huge thing to say that you think somebody from the secret service in his position would at least skirt the truth. >> i think people need to keep in mind he's career secret service but he's political appointee in his role as deputy chief of staff. i wouldn't be shocked, to be honest with you, if in six months he ends up in some trump aligned group. this is a political person we're talking about. >> that is something to look out for. john dean, you have been there and done this during the watergate hearings, as we mentioned earlier. could this subpoena, combined with hutchinson's stunning public testimony, open the flood gates like it did in 1973?

i want people to hear this because this was such a stunning moment for those folks who were not around when this happened -- sorry to age ya -- but for folks who didn't see this moment in history when you stood up and you made this statement. >> i began by telling the president that there was a cancer growing on the presidency and that if the cancer was not removed, the president himself would be killed by it. >> stronger words have not been said until we heard from cassidy hutchinson. do you think that her testimony is the key to unlocking that door and the flood gates of people start sitting down in front of this kmut committee an telling it like it is? >> i certainly think it'll get the attention of many people on the fringe. i'm not sure it'll reach the hard core trump supporters. i have done a lot of study of authoritarian personalities after i worked for our last authoritarian president, the one

that preceded trump. and these are people who are believers, and they can make facts that they don't want to hear just vanish in their mind. so, i'm not sure it will open a flood gate. i think a lot of people who weren't sure and were on the edge, they'll say, aha, well, there's a loyal trump supporter who's honestly telling us what happened, as your guest tonight is. and that's important to a lot of people and will change their mind. >> i gist have to quickly lastly ask you, you were given a deal. how important is that? i mean, if there is no deal for some of these people who might some forward, we're not going the see them, are we? >> no. but they have the power to give -- they have that power. this committee has immunity power. it was irrelevant to me. i told them i would testify with or without it. my lawyer said you're going to take it. but i decided to stand up and account for my behavior anyway

by pleading. so, it wasn't an issue with me. but i think there are people who could be immunized and come forward. and they may well yet be using that power in the january 6 committee. >> john dean, thank you so much. alissa, there is more to discuss with you just a bit later. ahead, attorney general merrick garland said he's closely watching these hearings, as you might imagine. what does this explosive testimony mean to any potential case his justice department might pursue? and could it include potential crimes that have happened since january 6, such as witness tampering? former attorney general humberto gonzales joins me next. when a normal day is anything but t normal, we fit your schedule, with our unique tub over tub process, installed in as little as a day. when high quality is the only quality that matters, we fit your standards, with a lifetime guarantee.

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congresswoman liz cheney offered this as to the question of whether anyone in trump's supporting world could be tied to a crime.

>> trump does read transcripts. and just keep that in mind, as i proceed through my interviews with the committee. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> the witness to witnesses, allegations of witness tampering could mean this isn't just about possible crimes that were committed back on january 6 and before. it may also be about ones that are still being committed. my next guest brings a unique perspective, as both the former white house counsel and a former attorney general, alberto gonzales, welcome to the show. >> it's good to be with you. >> all right. we just heard that bit from liz cheney, where she is reading some of the information, the texts or the emails sent to witnesses. what would you tell anyone, former president or not, who might be trying to convince someone not to cooperate with a congressional investigation? >> oh, i mean, that's a crime.

that's obstruction of justice. and so that would be a serious matter. and i would tell them to knock it off. you know, this is really -- given the testimony from ms. hutchinson, i think we've moved a little bit closer where i think there are some high level people facing legal jeopardy. obviously we haven't heard from some key players like pat cipollone. i think the subpoena there is very significant. and, again, it's a serious matter when the white house counsel is asked to testify before congress. there are issues, the separation of powers and executive privilege. obviously that privilege is not absolute. it is qualified. so, if you've got a new situation where you have a high profile investigation or the information is very, very important, then that privilege is often not honored by the courts. again, we have a long way to go here, but my prediction is just

basically what i said today is that mr. cipollone is going to become compelled to testify. there is no such thing as the department of justice since the department of justice is part of the executive branch. so, he's got some tough decisions to make. there is a history. people may think, well, you're the lawyer to the president, you can't be compelled to testify. there is a long history of senior white house officials in connection with investigations who have testified. beth nolan, white house counsel, charles rudd, white house counsel. so, it's not sacrosanct that the president's lawyer cannot be compelled to testify before congress. the privilege is not absolute. >> right. the whole idea there is nobody is above the law. so, you can do what you can to

find a crime is committed. i noticed you said something important. you said that, you know, there could be some people very high up that could face criminal charges. the question is after hearing from cassidy hutchinson, that testimony was as strong testimony that i think anyone has heard in a situation like this maybe ever. is it enough when you look at what she has said and the evidence that the committee has? is it enough to charge the former president? >> well, again, is it enough in that can you get all of that testimony into court, into a criminal proceeding because, again, there are rules of evidence. you've got to convince a jury of the president's peers, if that's who we're talking about. it's quite a different situation to make the case under the rules of evidence with cross examination. but i will say that it seemed to me we took a big step forward in

terms of showing that the president was aware that people were armed and that he encouraged them to go to the capitol. i think you can make the argument that he encouraged them to obstruct congress in terms of exercising their constitutional duty. so, i think there was a step forward. and that's -- when i said high-level people i think are close to legal jeopardy today, that's what i was referring to. >> but i think here's the hard thing. and, you know, lawyers will know more about this, and you certainly would. but the hard thing is he may have encouraged someone to go to the capitol. but did he encourage an attack? did he encourage -- did he take that next major step? do you think that that's come anywhere near being proven? >> well, you have -- i think you get to the point where the connection is inescapable, that that is exactly what he

intended. maybe he didn't say those words, but maybe he did. maybe he said those words to his chief of staff. maybe that was a communication, an utterance that he makes to white house counsel. we just don't know yet. but you get to the point where the connection is inevitable. maybe he doesn't exactly say those words. but by his conduct and by his knowledge, you know, we know that the outcome can only be one thing. we know that is his desire, his intent, can only be one thing. >> and that's something that the jury, if they were going to bring a case, would have to decide ultimately. thank you so much. i appreciate it. alberto gonzalez. we appreciate it your time here. and well beyond january 6, donald trump has remained the leader of the republican party. he could even become president again, or at least run for the presidency. but are the odds of that now shrinking with these hearings? we'll take it up with some power players on the other side of the break.

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donald trump completely unhinged, angry, and out of control. that's the picture that some former trump aides say they now have of the former president in the wake of cassidy hutchinson's remarkable testimony. one trump ally even told cnn that hutchinson's revelations could even make it easier for republican presidential hopefuls

to challenge trump in a primary, should he run. alyssa farah griffin is back with me, along with van jones, and shan woo. alissa, i'm starting with you. one trump ally said this testimony could be a campaign commercial for the one and only florida governor ron desantis in 2024. we have seen polling also for now that shows he is in the race. if it were him and trump today, more people said they would vote for him than trump. surprised? >> not surprised. but twofold answer. the fact that we're even still talking about donald trump after this insane testimony under oath from a former staffer speaks to how powerful he is. the fact he is not already thrown to the side of history. that said, i guarantee there is a certain governor of florida who is paying very close attention to how the public is receiving these hearings. there are people who will challenge the hearings.

i think mike pence will. i think mike pompeo is looking at it. i think a lot of people are seeing a weakened men who people are tired of. he does have a death grip of the republican party. this is no longer a binary choice of joe biden versus donald trump. if there were ever a moment to jump ship from this man who tried to overthrow our democracy on january 6, now is the time. we can have someone who will not do that in office. >> you were there. you have people who still are hoping trump rises from whatever just happened to him in this testimony. are they swayed at all? are they watching? you look at the numbers of some other networks, you know, who have been very pro-trump, and it's like it doesn't exist. >> i warn about this. i think we kind of live in a split screen america where are there are certain folks where they're not seeing with their eyes or hearing under oath. this is illegitimate. i have family member who is do. the people feed had to keep

telling the truth. i think people like cassidy who stands to gain nothing from this, that really helps. somebody who's young, has the benefit to tell that story, that's got to resonate with americans. >> van jones, you were sitting there with us. you were there throughout the whole four years talking about things happening with donald trump. when you see what was said in front of all of america, did it surprise you or you one of those people that said, i mean, that's what people thought anyway? >> it's hard to be surprised anymore. it's hard to be shocked anymore. but what i will say is kind of hiding in plain sight here is what if the secret service had said to donald trump, yes, sir, we will drive you to the head of this mob of armed lunatics? think -- i mean, i don't care who you are as a republican, that is the judgment of the person that you want to have with the nuclear codes? if he -- if any of this is true -- don't worry about grabbing the steering wheel.

just the request of a sitting dem commander in chief to be at the head of a mob should shock everyone. >> i think there's a lot of people looking forward to say, wait a minute, in this testimony we saw the statements that were either emails sent to people who were going to testify. and for a lot of people, that sounded very, for lack of a better word, mob boss like. going forward, when you hear what was written to some witnesses before they testified, are there potential people who might get charged with tampering, with trying to stop a witness from going forward? is that possible, that more charges could be coming? >> oh, absolutely. not only that, those kinds of charges, i think, are low-hanging fruit for the justice department. it's not going to require a lot of hand wringing over am i going to into an area that's never been done before, charging a former president.

this is standard playbook witness tampering, easy to do. so, i think that's why those may be really more easy stand alone charges in a lot of ways. >> here's the hard question i know. i like to throw the hard one at you. you're a lawyer. you know we do that to you. the hard question is, how long would it even take if the doj did decide, okay, we're going to make a case against the former president of the united states? aren't we talking months, potentially years, that this could take to bring a case like that? because if they lose, what are the consequences? >> well, take that in two parts. i think the losing question goes to prosecutorial discretion, what they're worried about doing. and here, as other people have said, i mean, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. the consequence of not making him accountable, his inner circle accountable, are really devastating for the democracy. this is a case that has to be tried. practically speaking, you're exactly right. it will talk a while to get it

in the pipeline and actually try the case. and that is a problem. with all due president to ag garland, who i think is a man of great integrity, i think doj is a little bit late to the dance on this and they're having to play catch up. and that is definitely a problem. >> van, i've got to ask you, if this does take a long time, if it never happens, but if it does go forward and it's 2023 or even 2024, is this just going to be one of those political footballs that get thrown around that republicans say, look, it's just a stupid political witch hunt and the democrats are like, well, they're not doing much, or they're not doing enough. what happens here? >> we saw, we went through two impeachments and it didn't seem to impact much of the republican base. but i've got to tell you, you have a two-tiered justice system here if he doesn't get charged. can you imagine some local yahoo in your town screaming and yelling at a bunch of people go and attack city hall. that guy would be under the jail tomorrow morning.

could you imagine anyone calling witnesses and saying, hey, i'm watching you. that guy would be under the jail tomorrow. so, the idea you have trump and the whole administration acting this way and there's not a single charge against any of them, it's discrediting -- those of us living in communities that are impacted by overpolicing and overincarceration, watching people going to jail for 20 and 30 years for doing tiny amount of stuff with a hundred of the evidence, it discredits the entire system. >> this is going to be hard for the doj, can we all agree? they're in a tough spot at noint. >> when they're exercising their discretion, you have to think about defenses and are there innocuous reasons. there are no innocuous reasons. there's no reason for them to be pursuing trying to meet in the war room, trying to go through this memo that eastman did, because there is no fraud. so, really everything that they're doing that comes out indicates that it's a crime. >> and i just want to say one final thing.

there's not a non-zero chance that this man could be president again. and that's something i think democrats need to be keenly aware of. i think joe biden is in a much more difficult place to win re-election. this could be the commander in chief in just a matter of year? >> thank you guys for being here. up next, the new battlegrounds in the new abortion fight and the states online. and the host of the slow burn podcast joins me with the moment in history before abortion was legalized. could it tell us what the future holds for women in america? that coming up next.

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as the country continued to try and understand the true impact of the supreme court decision ending the constitutional right to abortion, the focus is now shifting to the states, where the laws that are enforced will depend on local prosecutors, at ti times this as new research reveals online search traffic on abortion medication surged 162% in the hours before and after the draft opinion leaked in may. and one birth control provider reports seeing a 300% increase in prescriptions asked for my patients after the leak and ruling. joining me now is susan matthews. she's the news director for

slate, and she hosts the new season of "slow burn" podcast which focuses on roe versus wade. i know you've heard this saying before. we have to look back to where we've been. and you did that in a really unique way. your podcast looked back and looked at a case of the first american woman who was charged with manslaughter. her name was shirley wheeler, for having an abortion. can you tell us when you did this, what does this case perhaps tell us about our potential future? >> yeah, i think the really interesting thing here is shirley wheeler was i think 22 years old when she was in daytona beach, florida, in 1970. she was pregnant. she had already had one pregnancy, and she had really severe health problems, and she needed to have an abortion. and so she got an illegal abortion, and it was definitely illegal in the state of florida. but it was basically up to the discretion of the local

prosecutor to charge her. and she was actually put in jail for four days before they actually set a trial date for her. and she had a trial in front of a six-person jury who found her guilty of manslaughter simply for having an illegal abortion. and when i think about what people say now about what's going to happen in this situation, the thing that really worries me is that it doesn't necessarily matter what the federal level is saying about this anymore. it's really going to come down to the states and it's really going to come down to the discretion of individual local prosecutors to decide what to do under this patchwork of laws that we're trying to figure out, what is the law right now? it's a really frightening situation. >> there is a picture there of the states that have either restricted or banned abortions. and we're talking about 26 states are in that -- that's more than half the country --

where they're either going to severely restrict or they're going to ban. this was a boone and cheered for by those who wanted to stop abortions in this country, which for a lot of the americans in that pool, they are very happy to see this. and they feel like the supreme court made the right decision. but when it comes to practicalities in talking to the doctors who perform abortions and other kinds of health care, they say women are going to do it. they're going to figure out a way to do it, even if it means taking their own lives and putting those in jeopardy. >> absolutely. i think the real thing i found in looking at this time before roe, before the right to abortion was legalized is that women are going to get into this situation no matter what. they're going to need abortions no matter what. it doesn't really matter if it's legal or not. it's really about what type of abortion women are going to get. and so whether it's a legal abortion or not, whether it's a safe abortion or not, those are the kinds of questions we're going to deal with now rather than whether they're going to

get abortions or not. >> there is a push by those in the conservative mindset to try to criminalize this, in other words not only have the providers be criminalized and be prosecuted but to actually have women just like the person, ms. wheeler, that you highlighted, to have women charged with manslaughter. i want to talk about the assistant state attorney who handled the case before the case was legalized. here's what he said about her case. >> i've never worked on an abortion case before or after. and i didn't consider this an abortion case. i looked at it as a manslaughter case. if she is going to kill a fully formed, viable child, then she is certainly responsible, and someone is helping her do it, they're certainly responsible. that's just common sense. >> now, that could be the same language that is used now, correct? because it really is up to the

discretion of whomever gets the case, correct? >> exactly. and i think one really interesting thing about this prosecutor, when i talked to him, abortion was illegal in florida at this time. and what he said to me was he was charged with prosecuting this, and he had to deal with the fact that he thought that women were getting illegal abortions and he was trying to actually will find out who had given her the illegal abortion. and shirley wouldn't tell him who had done it, and that was part of the reason why he went after her instead. and so in his mind, he was trying to protect women i think in a way is part of what he was talking about. but it's really when you don't have this -- dwhwhen you don't e roe to protect women, it's going to happen in a way that -- it's totally up to people to decide what they want to do. >> i want to ask you quickly, there is one part of this podcast that made me stop in my tracks because i was walking. what did the judge sentence her to? >> after shirley was found guilty, the judge handed down a

sentence that was two year's probation. that was a relief for shirley because she could have gotten 20 years in prison. but term of her probation, she either had to marry her boyfriend or leave the state of florida. this is a woman who is 23 years old, is not a child, is being told by the judge get married or go home, essentially. >> i would hope in this day and age, that wouldn't be a legal sentence, would it? >> it's a very interesting thing of how this was part of the terms of her probation. there are lots of things that can be part of the term of probation. you can't go to a bar. you can't stay out late at night. all of these different things. so, there are these archaic laws that can be brought into play now and that is part of what is frightening about this moment. >> susan matthews, thank you so much for sharing your story with ugh. coming up, two more big rulings expected tomorrow by the supreme court including on immigration, this as what is being called the deadliest human smuggling incident in united states history.

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tonight the doj says four people have now been arrested and charged with the worst human smuggling incident in united states history. that includes this 45-year-old man who authorities suspect was the driver of the truck where 53 migrants were found dead, packed in the scorching hot trailer. watch, as the san antonio police chief describes the harrowing scene. >> the floor of the trailer, it was -- it was just completely covered in bodies, completely covered in bodies. there were ten-plus bodies outside the trailer because when we arrived, when ems arrived, we were trying to find people who were still alive. so, we had to move bodies out of the trailer onto the ground.

>> among the dozens of dead, 16 people survived, including four children. the san antonio archbishop tells cnn that most of the survivors he visited in the hospital wer e unconscious. we're back with s.e. cupp. the people in the back of a truck who is desperate already. it's hard to turn into what this is turning into which is a political battle, once again. almost immediately after we learned of this tragic event, the texas governor, governor abbot and other republicans jumped on this. this is the tweet from abbott. he said these deaths are on biden and the result of his open

border policies. van, what would you say to the governor in response to that? >> i think it's in poor form. i think it's ill considered for him to say that. people -- those people died for a dream that we take for granted every day. our hearts have been open to the plight of ukrainians who are fleeing for their lives. it's not just ukrainians. there are people all around the world who are fleeing very dangerous situations and when those people try to get here and the doors closed, not open. it's not open border. it's a closed border and they have to try sneak through, close their life. take a beat before you make it politics. >> they died a horrible death. >> they were basically cooked to death in the back of that. >> horrible. treated like animals. i had read an interview with greg abbott from a couple of years ago and he said, listen, after tragedies, we turn to our

faith. that did not feel very christian for him to come out immediately and blame biden in is political problem. there's no way around it. policies on the left and the right are responsible for having a broken immigration system. >> is anyone under the impression we can't fix our immigration system? of course we can. >> every time with fixing is supposed to happen, nobody can come up with something that everybody can agree on. >> because if you fix it, you can't run on it. if you fix it, you can't fear monger off of it. there's been bad republican immigration policy and bad democratic immigration policies. it's time for people to grow up, do their jobs and solve these problems so that tragedies like this don't happen. >> there's a real opportunity just like what happened with the gun control, gun safety. when ftragedy like this happens

rather than pointing fingers and turning on each other, we should turn to each other. there's an opportunity to get something done. part of the reason food prices are going up is you don't have enough workers coming here to do the agriculture work and the service work we expect people to do. everybody has a stake in making sure this problem gets solved. this type of thing doesn't bring us together, i don't know what will. >> can you repeat that? >> rather than turning on each other, we can turn to each other. that's the appropriate response to this level of tragedy. >> as this issue goes forward, i m mean, could this will be that moment? could this be the uvalde moment. 53 people dead in the most disturbing scenario that you can imagine. we know that children were in the back of that van. >> yeah. nothing worse to imagine and who knows if their parents were with them or back at home. just terrible. you would hope this would be a

moment but our country and our political system produces too few of those moments. we take too few of those opportunities. i would hope for once we could the politicize the issue of immigration and just try to solve problems. i'm not very optimistic we will. >> you presented a sinister view of why the immigration issue from dreamers to folks watsing to come in for asylum. do you hold that same view that this is being able to to run on? this is about everything to solve the problem. >> there's a lot of posturing and bs that goes on on both sides. it's really frustrating. there's a lot of maximalist views. if we can't get everything in our immigration bill, we can't get anything. i would call a meeting tomorrow if i were president biden or

kamala harris. ask the governor to dcom to the white house. ask the dreamers to come to the white house. i would take that open door and come right on through because this is not an easy problem to solve. it's very easy to solve if we come together. >> what will it say to us about a country if we cannot come together after 53 people dead. >> we're so broken and divided. a majority of americans does not feel this two party system represents them because the two parties are speaking to the fringes and not for the majority. most people are in middle on a lot of issues. they're not extreme on immigration or abortion or guns. no one is talking to them in the middle. they're coming up with these crazy ideas. >> most people in most neighborhoods, workplace, marriages, you come together and cut a deal.

>> compromise is a word that's become a bad word. we got to get out of here. we'll be right back. time. it's life's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts

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thank you for hang out with me the don lemon is on tonight. >> thanks, sara. have good night. this is big. the january 6 committee subpoenas pat cipolline. the witness talked about him. every one has been talking about that. he is the former president's white house counsel. a key witness to what was going on inside the white house the days before. we have been trying to get