thank you so much for hanging out with me. i'll be back tomorrow night. don lemon tonight starts right now. >> thank you very much. it's like something out of a gangster movie. the star witness in a dramatic trial who has damning information about the boss, contacted by someone who may be trying to intimidate them, trying to keep them from telling what they know. sources are telling us that is exactly what happened to cassidy hutchinson. he was once of the witnesses trump world tried to influence. it tells you a whole lot about what they thought about her testimony, right. the committee so concerned about her security that they kept her identity a secret leading up to the hearing. in the wake of her blockbuster testimony, we may be able to

learn a whole lot more with the subpoena for pat cipollone who knows what was going on behind the closed doors before, during and after january 6th. we're learning more about the lengths trump world may be willing to go through. two unnamed witnesses say thads heard from people in the former president's o bit who they have been trying to intimidate them. >> what they said to me is as long as i can't to be a team player, they know i'm on the right team. i'm doing the right thing. i'm protecting who ni need to protect. you know i'll continue to stay in good graces if trump world. they have reminded me a couple of times that trump does read transcripts. quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition.

>> we have heard about this kind of behavior before in another hearing from someone else who knows all too well how trump team works. >> that's how he speaks. he doesn't give you questions. he doesn't give you orders. he speaks in a code. i understand the code because i've been around him for a decade. >> so contrast charges of witness intimidation, the thuggish politics with the kind of politics liz cheney talked about in her speech last night when she got applause for speaking the truth. >> the reality that we face today as republicans, as we think about the choice in front of us, we have to choose because republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and to loyal to the constitution. at this moment -- [ applause ] >> interesting how republicans

applauded her then but tonight, tonight, liz cheney defending her work fighting criticism from her republican rivals. >> as i made clear last night, we have to put our oath to constitution above party. republican party has a long and storied history of embracing the conservative values that i believe in very strongly of limited government, low taxes and a strong national defense, but we are now embracing a cult of personality. i won't be part of that and i will always stand for my oath and stand for the truth. >> liz cheney talking policy, values at her debate tonight. the other candidates. i want to turn to latest on the january 6th investigation. john dean who was nixon white house counsel. good to see you. thanks so much.

let's start with ambassador. the hutchinson testimony this week was explosive. it added a lot to the public's understanding of what happened leading up to and on january 6th. has there been a shift in momentum for the committee and a rising alarm in trump world because of all these revelations that are coming out? >> don, thanks for having me back. i think the committee was accelerating even before cassidy humpinson but she put them into hyper driver. she provided the missing links we have been waiting for. above all, tieing trump to the violence. he knew there were weapons in the crowd. he incited the crowd. he wanted to march with the crowd and then his hostility that she reported towards mike pence, not sympathetic at all, agreeing and that terrible tweet

a little after 2:00 p.m. this was a devastating acceleration, i think of donald trump's criminal liability. >> john, we're learning the former white house deputy chief of staff met twice with the january 6th committee in january and in march. topics including trump's knowledge of pence's whereabout, his answers to those questions haven't been revealed. what is this committee after when it comes to him? >> i think they want the truth and i think they will have to go back to him and find out whether he told the story that was reported by cassidy or not. they've made that into an issue. it's not really a very important story in the bigger picture but they're playing with it. i don't think she would have any inclination to create and invent a story like that had she not heard it.

he's a very unique secret service person who sort of crossed from the service into the white house staff and became the acting head of the secret service. very unusual. highly unusual. >> lesome committee members this he lacks credibility. how do you see this playing out? >> he has lost some credibility because he's not an independent player. he is declared whose team he's on. he was there to make trump look good at events, to help sure he make sure advancing events was made easier. the secret service was always cooperative. he's a partisan in this. frankly, i think that affects his credibility greatly. >> ambassador, you had some instinct or maybe some insight about pat cipollone because you posed him during trump's first impeachment trial. so far he's not fighting the

subpoena. looks like he will cooperate in some limited way. why do you think he might cooperate now? >> well, don, he has three options. he can take the route of naked criminal contempt that has landed steve bannon and peter navarro in the dock. he's an officer of the court. he's not going to do that. he can attempt to negotiate a compromise. it happens so often there's name for it in d.c. the accommodation process. that's where he appears to be going. he could stall and ultimately litigate. that's the mark meadows route. that risk contempt finding and possible prosecution. the only option that really makes sense for him and i say this also knowing pat. he is a negotiator. he's an affable individual. we spent a lot of time with his counsel for this in the

impeachment. also a negotiator. i think they will take the middle route. >> meaning? explain. >> well, right now they are signaling that a negotiation is going on. that means they will talk about things like is the deposition -- i have a subpoena, pat says. is the deposition going to be videotapes so i'm on tv or is it going to be audio or just tran scribed so it's a written record. how long will we go? those kind of details to try to get to a comfort zone. what he must do is, he has to show up, answer the questions. if he has objections, executive or attorney-client impressive l ledge, he has to put those on the record and ultimately those belong to the united states government, those privileges.

that means it's up to joe biden to decide whether or not pat answers those questions. >> what happened to i work for the american public. i'm serving my country in this capacity. i have nothing to hide. i'll answer your questions. >> that doesn't play with the trump administration at all. they have fought tooth and nail. they have tried to neuter the congress. every time they had been held to be accountable for anything. pat cipollone led that as norm well knows. very effectively. an impeachment proceeding that really was almost an obstruction of congress and how he got away with it, i don't know. he did. the sta to the best of your recollection -- statute has run on it. i think pat cipollone has to consider whether he's got jeopardy, criminal jeopardy and whether he's going to have to invoke the 5th amendment on some

of these himself. >> talk to me more about that. why do you say that? >> well, if you listen to what cassidy told us, she said he was warning about conspiracies to obstruct justice, conspiracies to defraud the electoral count. one crime after another. multiconstudes of crime. there's no evidence he withdrew from any of those just because he warned of them. we need that evidence. >> norm, cipollone and former attorney general bill barr have a decades long relationship. barr was very critical of trump in taped testimony. watch this. >> i thought boy is he really believes this stuff, he has lost contact with -- he's become detached from reality if he really believes this stuff. >> here is the interesting thing, cipollone worked for bar

in the george h.w. bush administration. they are both conservative catholics. he wasn't want to ruin his reputation but do you think barr's speaking out makings it easier for cipollone to do so or has no effect on it? >> i think it has an atmospheric effect and if we could tape record the thoughts in pat's head, i'm sure he is just as critical. we've heard extremely critical reports from others of what pat said in that time in the white house. i think he was fighting to do the right thing. i have a slightly different view than my friend, john, about his criminal exposure. ultimately, and i know this from dealing with him he's doing to decide -- >> what's your view? what is different about what john said? >> as i look at facts here, i see a white house counsel, the

job that john once head and i was special counsel to the president working in that office who was fighting consistently to try to prevent donald trump from attacking and overturning this election in one crazy scheme after another that pat blocked. i don't think prosecutors will charge that. pat is going to decide what's best for pat. he still has an active law practice. he's trying to do this dance that republicans do. they don't want to take donald trump on directly. that's what the negotiation is probably about with the committee now. he doesn't want videotape out there to be played at hearing of him attacking trump. aud you is better than video. a written transcript is best of all. those are the things being negotiated. i think he will cut a deal.

>> john, what's interesting to me is this is in certain republican circles and conservative kblmedia, this is being portrayed as a democratic witch hunt. i find it surprising that these people have hidden as democrats their entire lives to come out to wait for this one moment. these are all republicans. you get my -- i'm being fe fececious here. it's ridiculous. >> i do. t there are witches, don. i think some of them are being flushed out. the big witch who was very critical today on his social media outlet was very critical of the committee for subpoenaing pat cipollone. i think this was a very raw cord

that they hit. he's a very important witness. he could end this thing quickly by coming forward with the truth. i believe he has an obligation under the ethics standards that came out post-watergate to report this information. i don't understand why he's being given so much slack that he is. >> there are no ethics when it comes to this administration. >> and no accountability. >> yeah, we shall see if there's any to come. thank you both. up next, the former senior investigator who just left the january 6th committee a week ago, what he thinks the committee wants to ask pat cipollone. >> i think this is an instance where the presidency, the american people, where we have been through something we never been through before and the very real and significant chance that

there was behavior under way about which mr. cipollone expressed significantly concerns and i think he has an obligation to testify. fishing helps ease my mind. it's kinda like having liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. woah! look out! [submarine risising out of water] [minions makining noise] minions are bitin' today. (sung) liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. minions: the rise of gru, in theaters july 1st. the unknown is not empty. it's a storm that crashes, and consumes, replacing thought with worry but one thing can calm uncertainty. an answer. uncovered through exploration, teamwork, and innovation. an answer that leads to even more answers.

mayo clinic. you know where to go. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places

like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict.

every war is a war against children. please give now.

the vice chair liz cheney is back in wyoming. she and congresswoman cheney sparring over the work the january 6th committee is doing. >> i think these are really serious issues. i think there's no question that what we saw happen on january 6th was clearly an attempt to delay the count of the electoral votes. anybody who was there understands the violence that was involved. i'm stunned that one of my opponents on the stage who is a p member of the wyoming bar who was sworn an oath to the constitution would be in a position where she is suggesting

that somehow what happened on january 6th was justified or that somehow what happened that day, the people have the right to ignore the rulings of the courts. we are, in fact, a nation of laws. we are a nation of laws only if we defend our constitutional republic. as u made clear last night, we have to put our oath to constitution above party. republican party has a long and storied history of embracing the conservative values that i believe in very strongly of limited government, low taxes and a strong national defense. we are now embracing a cult of personality. i won't be part of that and i will always stand for my oath and the truth. >> the biggest threat to our republic is the krnts administration and the corruption our various constitutions. the department of justice, the f fbi, the other things that have happened over the last couple of years. what we have is a committee in

congress right now that their focusing on something that happened 18 months ago. they are not focusing on the issues that are important to the people in wyoming and ignoring the corruption that is des destroying washington, d.c. >> i'd be interested to know whether my opponent is willing to say here tonight that the election was not stolen. she knows it wasn't stolen. i think she can't say that it wasn't stolen because she's completely beholden to donald trump. if she says it wasn't stolen, he will not support her. we've got to be honest. we have to be truthful, elected officials in particular. >> i think that the press and people associated with that, the democrats who wanted to deflect attention from the failures of the biden administration, the people who want to deflect attention from all the troubles in this country, they talk about january 6th. that's not what people in wyoming are talking about. >> liz cheney slamming her chief

rival but debunk conspiracy theories. she is faciing an uphill battle. did she do enough tonight? will voters listen? what could it mean for the gop if liz cheney loses her seat? we'll talk about that, next. i recommend nature made vitamins because i trust their quality. they were the first to be verified by usp... ...an independent organizationon that sets strict quality and pupurity standards. nature made. the number one pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand.

my name is ami and i bought and financed my car through carvana. everything was all good but then things hit a slight snag. ok so they were trying to verify my employment status while i was at work, in a giant hole, in a mine. but then something amazing happened. hello? carvana worked with my shift manager and got everything sorted out so i didn't miss out on the car. super helpful. i was over the moon, even though i was underground. we'll drive you happy at carvana.

["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] discover is accepted at 99% of places in the u.s. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] researchers believe the first person to live to 150 has already been born. it could be you! wow. really? of course, you'll have to eat your greens, watch your stress, wear sunscreen... but to live to 150, we're developing solutions that help doctors listen to your heartbeat while they're miles away, or ai that knows what your body will do before you do.

cool. introducing elevance health. where health can go.

representative liz cheney

taking on several republicans. joining me to discuss, cnn senior political analyst and cnn political commentator, scott jennings. good to see you. liz cheney is showing heroism by standing up for democracy but that is not the case in wyoming, is it? >> no. this is a state that donald trump won 70% of the vote there. she knew this going into to her anti-trump fans. she's got the opponent who is full on trump spouting some of his conspiracy theories in that debate there. liz cheney is doing well in terms of raising tons of money but we all know that doesn't necessarily translate to votes.

she's essentially kind of pleading with democrats to cross over and help her win this primary in august because she knows that the writing is on the wall for her. >> that mikesakes sense. why wouldn't they do it? >> they might. the idea you going to amass enough democrats to do that is a little unlikely, maybe. >> i would say if they are smart and really want to hold someone with integrity to hold on the that seat, that they should vote for her. does that make sense to you, scott? what do you think? >> it's probably the only strategy cheney is employ the try to win this primary. i understand why she's doing it. having worked for the bush-cheney the idea of democrats voting for cheney. i think it's unlikely that

enough democrats would do that but if you're a democrat and you truly believe that the democracy is on the line, it's hanging by a thread or what have you then this would be a vote you could cast. i find it a long shot in wyoming. >> there are people, i don't know fp it was all democrats but those who are pro-abortion, pro-choice, i should say. they were upset with liz cheney because she applaudsed the supreme court decision. at least conservative. no one should expect her to be a democrat but they should applaud her in terms of her integrity of what she doing for the country and democracy. >> i think that's right. i think they are. that's one of the reasons you see her have the major fund raising advantage because i imagine she's getting money from all over the country. people who are seeing her bravery and her courage leading this committee and likely

costing her her political future as a republican in this party as it stands now. i just don't think you'll be able to organize enough democrat, independents to cross over in this primary and kind of beat the trump train at this point in state like wyoming. >> if she loses, what message does that send? >> it's a message that we know that trump is the head of the republican party. he's the dom nants, most powerful force in the party now. you cannot be anti-trump and win. >> some of them are losing though. some of the anti-trumpers are winning. >> not the anti-trumpers. sort of the people who are like moving past trump. the people who are anti-trump, those folks are not winning. >> scott, for security reasons the debate was closed to the public but on wednesday she got rounds of applause at the reagan library when she called out trump enablers in the gop. here it is. watch.

>> we're con fronting a domestic threat that we have never faced before. that is a former president who is attempting to unravel the foundations of our constitutional republic. it's become clear that the efforts donald trump oversaw and engaged in were even more chilling and more threatening than we could have imagined. we have to choose because republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and loyal to the constitution. [ applause ] >> if you're attendin ing event there, you're an old school, a pre-trump republican. she's saying the gop has a

bigger and brighter future without donald trump leading the party. >> she's laying out a message that by someone in the 2024 presidential primary. somebody and it's probably mike pence, he's the one who is probably most likely going to lay out this message that we can have all the policy you want without the unconstitutional january 6th baggage. that's what pence is going to argue. what i'm interesting in is whether ron desantis and others will go as far as what cheney is doing. if you're running against p trump in the primary, you can't just say i'm 100% donald trump all the way because you're not really giving anyone a choice. the one candidate that i think is most likely to carry this ball is pence and if the reports are true that trump is thinking

of jumping into this race early, he will get his chance early onto define it on those terms. we'll see if it works but she's laying that ground work for him, i think. >> she's gained a lot of attention nationally, scott. she's been in the spotlight, do you think there's a chance that liz cheney might run? >> sure. i do, actually. >> yeah. >> i don't think she would run as a republican. i guess she could. i don't know what the marketplace is. there's -- if you look at the polling now about half the party wants to do trump at the moment and the other half is split up among i don't know, mikeron desantis, mike pence and other people. there's a long way to go. >> same question. >> listen, i think she probably is going to run. i think she will republican as a republican. the market is small. i think pence probably doesn't have much of a shot because he

sort of owes his standing to donald trump but also rebuked donald trump. i think that's a hard kind of lane to navigate. i think ron desantis embodies trumpism. i think you see him stock rising and in some ways he should send liz cheney a bouquet of flowers because she is the one really taking it to donald trump at this point. >> i think that would be fascinating. liz cheney. come on. bring it on. i'd love to cover that race. >> i think you will. >> thank you, both. i appreciate it. the january 6 committee putting the pressure on the former white house counsel pat cipollone. what do they want to know? i'll ask a former senior investigator who just left the committee week ago.

the6th committee says it's willing to work with trump white house counsel pat cipollone after the bombshell testimony from former white house testimony cassidy hutchinson. let's get insight on what the committee wants to learn from him. john wood. he also previously served as the u.s. attorney for the western drikts of missouri and we are grateful to have you here. good evening. thanks for joining. >> thanks for having me on. you know the investigation better than anyone else. you only left the committee a week ago and you know what unanswered questions there are. what does the committee need to ask pat cipollone, sir? >> i don't know where to start. so many questions. pat cipollone did neat in an informal setting with the staff of the committee but there's no record of that. what the committee wants is for path cip pat cipollone to go on the record.

it's really important the american people hear from pat cipollone because he knew so many things that other people can't or won't tell us about. people like mark meadows refusing to testify so it's really important that pat cipollone testify. he came off several times a couple do i haves ago and she said that, for example, pat cipollone said if the president went to the capital on january 6th, it would break every law plajable. they want to hear whether he said this on january 6th. >> he would be charged with every crime imaginable if they help trump get to the capitol on january 6th and that didn't happen. does that cipollone have any criminal exposure over january 6th? >> i don't think pat cipollone has any criminal exposure. quite to the contrary. empg i know suggests that pat cipollone is one of the guys who was trying to stop donald trump from doing bad things and

encouraging him to take efforts to try to stop the attack on the capitol. that's the kind of thing that the committee needs to hear about. not anything that pat cipollone did wrong. i ups why pat cipollone is a bit reluctant to testify because there's some legitimate privilege issues. there's a lot of information he knows that's not covered by the executive privilege. it's really important that the committee hear from him. >> what do you think of this limited testimony, transcribed testimony? should he come out and testify fully instead of doing it in this limited manner? >> yes, i think he should testify at a public hearing. then he doesn't have to say the committee is taking anything out of context. if he's not willing to do that then he should sit down for a transcribed videotaped deposition where the committee can use it in its report and make video of it available to the american people because he's got a lot of information that

the american people noeed to knw about. >> you mepgs mention he sat dow before, did you find him credible? >> i think he's kredsable. i think he's a good lawyer and good person. i think he's an honest man. inunderstand there's some privilege. it's really important people hear from him. >> there's still more hearings to go. we know the final two hearings will focus on the role domestic extremist groups played in attacking the capitol on january 6th. it will try to fill in the gaps. are there more bombshells to come? >> i don't know. we'll have to wait and see. obviously every hearing so far is new information to come out

and imd expect the remaining hearings will be the same. the new information will come out and the american people will see additional pieces to the puzzle. >> that was a big grin just now. >> don't read too much into it. >> i'm sorry, say what? >> do read too much into my grin. i don't know what will come out in the additional hearings. each hearing has had new information. i think piece by piece the american people will continue to see more of this puzzle. >> how to you think the committee is doing? >> i think they are doing really good job. i know for months people were come plaping they didn't know enough about what was going on with the committee. they weren't hearing from the committee because the investigation was being done behind closed doors but now over the past few weeks, the american people have gotten to see a lot of results of the work and they are learning a tremendous amount. i applaud both the members and the staff for the professional and bipartisan way they are handling this investigation. i think they are learning a will the of information. they're not done yet.

>> do you think cassidy hutchinson testimony was game changer? did it get the public's attention? you can never get anybody's attention but what do you make of that? >> i think it got a lot of people's attention. i was riveted by it and i already knew some of the substance of her testimony. i still thought it was eye popping testimony. i thought she came across as very credible. obviously, the committee will have to continue to talk to other witnesses to see if they corroborate or contradict her testimony and all of the evidence but i thought she came across this very credible and somebody who has no reason to lie. >> people are wondering why did he lead the committee. there must be something going on. you left the committee because you're running for senate in missouri. you call yourself a lifelong republican so why run as an independent, john? >> i think our country is more divided than it's ever been during my lifetime and nowhere is that more evident than in this missouri senate race. on the one hand the republican

party, my party peers to nominate a disgraced former governor who is trying to make a political comeback. the alternative would be a democrat nominee who would vote for chuck schumer for majority leader which is out of touch with views and values. i thought it was important that there's an alternative that's common sense along the lines of ronald reagan. that's what the people of missouri really want. >> listen, i think you are, i think most people are somewhere in the middle of the extremes of both parties. do you think an independent really has a chance especially the way our system is -- the way it have created and the way it operates? it's centered on democrats and republicans. >> i absolutely think that. i think i have a very good chance of winning this race. i think it's unique situation

where it's a very republican and con sefservative state. republican party looks like lie nominate a former governor who resign in disgrace and a tremendous amount of baggage. i think there's an opportunity for another republican who is a common sense conservative to step into the race and get a large number of republican votes overwhelmingly win the independent votes and big of moderate democrats. >> well, john, we're happy that you're here. best of luck. come back and let us know your progress. thank you. >> i would love to. i'll come on any time. >> appreciate it. the price of filling your tank. filling your grocery cart, going up and up and up. here is president biden's response. you'll hear it next, i should say. customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. ifif anyone objects to this marriage... (emu squawawks) kevin, no!o! not today. only pay for what you need.

♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. libiberty. ♪

this is the sound of nature breathing. and this is the sound of better breathing. fasenra is a different kind of asthma medication. it's not a steroid or inhaler. fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. it's one maintenance dose every 8 weeks. it helps prevent asthma attacks, improve breathing, and lower use of oral steroids. nearly 7 out of 10 adults

with asthma may have elevated eosinophils. fasenra is designed to target and remove them. fasenra is not a rescue medication or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your face, mouth, and tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection or your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. this is the sound of fasenra. ask your doctor about fasenra. ♪ ♪ how's he still playin'? aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength. reduces inflammation. don't touch my piano. kick pain in the aspercreme. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... the burning, itching. the pain. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, most people saw 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. the majority of people saw

90% clearer skin even at 5 years. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®. ask your doctor about tremfya® today. a key measure of inflation

holding steady, meaning that it remains at a 40-year high. americans filling the tank or doing grocery shopping know that all too well. president biden wrapping up a nato summit in europe, trying to downplay it. >> i can understand why the american people are frustrated because of inflation, but inflation is higher in almost every other country. prices at the pump are higher in almost every other country. we're in a better position to deal with this than anyone, but we have a way to go. >> a new poll shows that message is not getting through to americans. only 1 in 4 adults approve of biden's handling of the economy, and high inflation is forcing more americans to fall into credit card debt. more now from cnn's evan mcmorris-santoro. >> reporter: on your worst day, how much debt were you in? >> we were about $120,000 in debt with credit cards. >> and you finished paying it off when? >> officially it was in march of

2022. >> reporter: in some ways, lavelle is living a common american summer. the darkest days of the pandemic had a financial silver lining. government relief checks and staying home made it easier to walk the long road to financial freedom. >> we were able to take the money -- the extra monies that we were getting and just pour it into paying off our debt. >> reporter: but the stimulus checks are gone, and life is more or less back to normal. and now inflation not seen in 40 years is gnawing away at the foundations of a life without credit card debt. >> we put a little extra aside just in case, especially for gas. so what we do is the monies that we were putting toward our debt, since we're newly out of debt, the money that we were putting aside for that, we do take portions of that for the inflation prices. >> reporter: but more and more americans aren't so lucky. inflation has risen faster than wages for many people, and fed

efforts to tamp down on it are in part aimed at slowing wage growth. lavelle got out of debt in part due to the pandemic and in part due to a debt management plan he worked out with green path financial wellness, a national nonprofit credit counseling firm based in the detroit area. omari hall has spent five years at green path, helping people here achieve financial independence. this moment is a scary one for a lot of people, he says. >> i can certainly understand how someone might feel that the moment where they felt like there was some relief coming with these supplemental checks that the government issued versus the sudden tight squeeze of inflation, i can understand how that would make you feel pretty helpless. >> reporter: the numbers show more families are reaching for the plastic these days. fed data released earlier this month showed revolving credit, a measure of debt that mostly includes credit cards, reaching record highs in april. now, that's not necessarily bad, experts say. but kristen holt, president and

ceo of green path, works with people who are often overwhelmed by credit cards, and she's seeing signs that's coming again. >> people who called us in 2021 on average had about $10,000 in credit card debt. so people on average calling us this month, it's at $14,000. >> that's significant. that's a lot of money. >> yeah, so it's 40% higher than it was last year. like that to me is like, holy cow. >> reporter: kristen says in this financial environment, credit card debt is a compounding problem. today families who struggled before the pandemic may be struggling again. but kristen worries the credit crunch could expand into families who thought they had control of their debt. >> these are not costs that are super easy to cut, you know, just putting less gas in your car will only get you so far. >> right. >> reporter: evan mcmorris-santoro, cnn, detroit. >> evan, thank you so much for that. so just how much pressure

was kacassidy hutchinson under when she testified? cashback mat. only from discover.

new developments tonight in the january 6th investigation. sources telling cnn cassidy hutchinson told the committee she was contacted by someone attempting to influence her testimony. liz cheney is weighing in, saying that the justice department should look into this. cnn's ryan nobles has more. >> reporter: new information tonight about the january 6th committee's star witness, cassidy hutchinson. sources tell cnn that hutchinson was one of two examples that vice chair liz cheney used to show trump allies were putting pressure on former staff members to stay loyal to the former president. >> our committee commonly asks witnesses connected to mr. trump's administration or

campaign whether they've been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony. >> reporter: witness intimidation among a growing list of potential crimes. the committee believes trump and his top advisers could be at the center of. >> i would imagine the department of justice would be very interested and take that very seriously as well. >> reporter: but trump and his allies are pushing back, attacking hutchinson and questioning her credibility, all because of a dispute over one aspect of her testimony. the secret service arguing the details she recounted being told about trump lunging at his detail inside a presidential suburban are not accurate. the former president clearly backing the secret service members who are part of the story. >> these are great people. they've devoted their lives to it, and i think they were very embarrassed by it because it makes them sound terrible. >> reporter: but members of the committee saying ornato'