mentioned at the hearings he has a moral obligation to appear before the committee and now, apparently he will. tell me why it's so important you think to hear from pat cipollone. >> well, i think our democracy is at stake here is what the game is. it's a real -- it's not a game, though. it's a real terrifying situation. he knows what happened and rather than honor the oath of office that he took to defend and support the constitution, he all along has been trying to resist testimony and appearing before this committee, yes, he had an informal session in april off the record. i don't even think it was sworn. and he's been now negotiating apparently as to the terms of under which he will testify. laura, i don't get it. here is a guy who has had the benefit of our democracy. he should be up there

volunteering information so we can understand what in the world happened down in that white house. >> so why do you think, nick, he's not? the idea he could have such access and give firsthand accounts of trump's efforts to seize the power of the doj as we heard from one hearing to corrupt it. the idea of the scheme to try to oust the acting attorney general but i suspect to the extent that cipollone is trying to carve out certain areas he doesn't have to talk about, i'm assuming privilege will be a part of this and obviously, he can bend the ear of the president. will that be enough you think to overcome the obligation john is speaking about and is it valid? >> not at all. i mean, look, there is no attorney client privilege for starters. the white house counsel does not represent the president of the united states personally. he's not his personal lawyer. so there is no personal attorney client privilege. the only question is whether or not there is any valid executive privilege in there and that's

pretty unlikely, too. i mean, there may be some instances where donald trump came to him and discussed certain things in a normal fashion, asking whether or not certain activity was problematic. it doesn't sound that way based on cassidy hutchinson's testimony. i mean, it seems to me that what pat cipollone was doing is putting fires out all over the white house whenever donald trump was stepping out over the line. none of that would be privileged. certainly i agree with john. he absolutely ought to be up there testifying and the most important part, actually, of what he has to say relates toca testified to. i think the most important thing he can do here is basically corroborate and support what she said. i mean, john can probably appreciate this more than anybody since when he testified

everybody in the republican side of the house was saying, oh, he's not credible, he's not telling the truth and then low and behold, outcome the nixon tapes and sure enough, john was right on the money and couldn't have been more accurate in his testimony. what is significant about pat cipollone is he can actually corroborate exactly what cassidy hutchinson said. >> well, john, who couldn't trust a face like yours? you kidding with that impeccable tie? of course, everyone trusts what john dean has to say on things but you raise a good point about credibility here, of course, and i wonder do you think the fact that pat cipollone, remember, he was up there for the first impeachment trial and has evaded the opportunity as you've talked about to have a moral obligation to testify. do you have concerns this is the person that is supposed to trust the credibility of other

witnesses? >> i certainly do. i remember that letter of october 2019 that he issued in the defense of the president and belittling the impeachment process and falsely attacking a member of the house adam schiff, he showed himself to be a pure political animal in a tribunal in the supreme court itself with the chief justice presiding and he made this representations and disappointed a lot of colleagues to his legal skills and protecting the office of the president so i'm not sure which side pat is on other than being on pat eas's side in trump worl. it will be a very difficult and

precarious walk for him through these proceedings. >> nick, as a prosecutor, i know full well when you have somebody whose credibility might be questioned in the way of whose side they are on, corroboration will be key. that's why the testimony of others who might not have that level of baggage will be important but cipollone testified informally back in april and "the new york times" obtained an email that outlined the agreement reached on limitations for the testimony. here is part of it i want to share here today. it says it allowed discussions of a meeting with jeffrey clark and a justice department official who tried to help mr. trump cling to power. mr. trump's interactions with john eastman, the lawyer that drafted a legal strategy for overturning the election and any interactions with members of congress and cipollone's reactions of january 6th but not conversations they or others had with trump except for that january 3rd meeting with jeffrey

clark. do you expect these will be the parameters still for friday's test testimony? >> i'm not sure. i think he will try to avoid direct conversations between him and donald trump and i can't say that necessarily those conversations would be covered by executive privilege. he will have the right to object and the committee would have the right to challenge those in court. i don't think they'll take the time to do that nor do they have the time to do that under these circumstances but i think for certain, what he said to cassidy hutchinson and begged her to make sure trump didn't go up to the capitol, that there would be all kinds of imaginable crimes or unimaginable crimes that would be committed if he did that is going to be critical in

terms of basically showing the credibility of cassidy hutchinson and i'm sure that the committee is going to focus in on that very hard. >> we don't have long to wait do we in terms of hearing what may come out of that on friday. john, nick, thank you so much. >> thank you. i want to turn now to cnn presidential historian timothy. tim, thank you for being here. you always do a fine job of trying to bring this into context for people to think about and a lot of people have been talking about it. waiting ifor a john dean moment and had a john dean conversation. one that might influence how americans might understand what truly happened. do you think we've seen something like that through cassidy hutchinson or jeffrey rosen and donohue or is that what you think someone like pat cipollone sitting where john dean once sat could bring?

>> well, cassidy hutchinson's testimony was a game changer and it was one of those dramatic surprises that shaped the senate watergate hearings and i think has moved this particular congressional investigation in a direction that we haven't seen since the senate watergate hearings. but what made the john dean moment john dean moment, was not just simply your previous guest but his position in the white house. the fact he was the white house counsel and talked to the president so he could give firsthand testimony, which as nick mentioned, was fully corroborated by the tapes, that he could tell us what the president was saying. cassidy hutchinson did a very good job of being very straightforward what she heard and what she was testifying to that was hearsay.

she was around the president but everything she heard was around mark meadows and pat cipollone. it's pat cipollone and mark meadows who are with the president. they're the ones who could give us if they wanted to, a john dean moment. my concern is that pat cipollone in the first impeachment counseled the president to engage in contempt of congress. pat cipollone's 2019 letter referenced to by john dean was an outrage. it basically turned on its head the entire history of impeachment and a violation for what george washington set out for congress to have a right to receive. george washington by the way was under no threat of impeachment said look, if the house requires something for an impeachment

inquiry, i have to give it over. pat scipollone decided to overturn george washington and all presidents since including richard nixon believed and said donald trump doesn't have to give anything. so pat cipollone's connection to our constitutional history is not a very strong one however, it's possible one of the things motivating him to testify under oath is he might be afraid of his own legal jeopardy. the picture developing, the picture the january 6th co committee is a conforming is a conspiracy, you're the lawyer, correct me if i'm wrong but a conspiracy to use violence to alter our constitutional processes. that is illegal and if pat sip l -- cipollone used a pressure

tactic to change vice president pence's mind on january 6th, he is liable for prosecution, too. so i would think that what is at issue here is he's changed his mind about his commitment to the constitution. i'm not ready to say he's fully on board with that but i think he may be a little afraid that cassidy hutchinson's implication of the testimony not only puts mark meadows in legal jeopardy but pat cipollone, as well. >> the fear is the great motivator. it would not be the first time it happened. we'll certainly see in what comes out and whether there is any investigation criminally as it relates to those who have come before or agreed to go to the january 6th committee. thank you for the important context.laura. my pleasure. the january 6th investigation isn't really the only one former president trump faces and we'll break down where things stand in the other cases

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as the january 6th investigation zeros in on the trump white house, several investigation into trump world are heating up. a special grand jury in georgia subpoenas that trump's allies in a probe into the eninterference and failing to comply from the state attorney general. actually being fined $10,000 a day. joining me now to discuss, former federal prosecutors,

michael moore. a lot of people lose the focus on these other investigations as well focussing on january 6th for example but i'm looking at these state level cases and wondering do these actually oppose a much greater legal threat to former president? do what do you think? >> if i was representing trump, which i thankfully have not, i would be more concerned about the fulton county case. merrick garland seems very cautious to me. a man that spent over 20 years as a federal judge. they're very concerned at the justice department about making sure they cross their ts and dot their is and want an airtight case. there is always reasons that be concerned about a chance of victory in a courtroom. i get the sense that the fulton county d.a. is very concerned about this conduct and she is determined to, you know, see this to the end and so if i was in their shoes, i would be very,

very concerned about fulton county right now. >> i mean, at least one person we know, michael, is concerned about fulton county in the sense they're going to try to challenge the fulton county subpoena, i'm talking about senator lindsey graham's attorney saying this is about politics -- actually, this is a criminal investigation into election interference. it's a little bit harder to avoid i would say than a congressional subpoena, which that statement alone years ago would have been odd to think it's easier to evade those. we know what happened here. is there some credence to what their lawyers might be saying in terms of senator graham not having to comply with the subpoenas that? >> yeah, i'm glad to be with you. i don't really think so. in full disclosure, you'll recall i suggested that the state election board investigate lindsey graham for the telephone call he made. >> i remember. >> the pressure he put on raffensperger back sometime ago. so i do think he's in a unique position. we've seen the subpoenas that go out to lawyers that are close to

the trump inner circle. this is starting to maybe narrow the focus a little bit. she's been on some and now getting some of these more pivotal key figures in the investigation. but graham is in unique position because he may himself have jeopardy. he made a call. raffensperger publicly stated in interviews he felt pressured and was taken a back by graham's call to him suggesting he might count certain votes or that he kind of manipulate the counting in someway and so that's something that may come into play. so i think graham is going to go through the legal wranglings. i'm not surprised by that at all. that seems to be the norm here. anybody that takes the fifth is guilty but then everyone around them takes the fifth. here, graham will say look, i shouldn't have to come forward because of the clause that prohibits me as a member of congress from being subject to

process. i don't think he'll get totally down the road with that. the judge had similar types of arguments made before him for the lieutenant governor in this state as well as for one of the state lawmakers. he sort of is favoring an approach to work through some of the objections, some things that may in fact be protected but basically open the door for them to talk in detail to the fulton county special jury. >> we'll see. the idea of subpoenaing somebody that might be a target, this is a special grand jury whose job it is to issue a report, not a regular grand jury who would be asked if applicable to return an indictment. thinking about the idea of exposure. you have trump, ivanka, don junior have to sit for depositions in the new york a.g. investigation into the trump organization this beginning july 15th. what is the legal exposure there? >> well, i think there it looks like right now it a civil case,

at least for now. the manhattan d.a.'s office backed out on what appeared to be criminal charges the former d.a. was ready to bring. if i was, you know, navigating that on a defense side, my concern would be that you're really facing war on several fronts. you know, any student history knows in world war tii what did germany in is facing war on these different fronts and facing the issues for trump and his family and associates is that any deposition that they give in the civil case can be used by the justice department, by prosecutors in fulton county or elsewhere and those words can be used against him. so i really think that the issue that they have now is it's very unlikely that they're not going to have some prosecutors somewhere trying to bring charges, i think, at this point and accordingly have to be concerned about what they say. >> thank you both. we'll keep you posted for the stories and focus on all of

them. thank you so much. >> thank you. you know, next, what may have been a missed opportunity to take out the uvalde gunman before 19 children and two of their teachers lost their lives. plus, cnn talks with a surviving teacher from the school who wishes the police had acted sooner. >> i mean, they probably thought we were all dead or something but if they would have got in be before, some of them probably would have made it. hits fast. so get relief fast. only tylenol rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast for fast pain relief. and now get relief without a pill with tylenol dissolve packs. relief withoutut the water.

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a damming report to the police response in the mass shooting to the eloqementary school in uvalde, texas. officers missed several opportunities to stop the gunman before he killed 19 students and two teachers. the report says for example, that one officer had a chance to shoot the gunman before he even entered the school. he sought permission to take the shot but didn't hear back in time. this report is coming as a teacher who survived the shooting says police officers failed to save the victims. more tonight from cnn's shimon. >> i started seeing the sheet rock fall off the walls and that's when i told my kids, i

don't know what it is but let's get under the table. >> arnie reeyes was the only survivor from classroom 111 in uvalde, texas. after a month in the hospital, ten surgeries from bullet wounds to his arm and back, he's finally back home and talking about the day that ripped so many lives apart. >> i was getting the kids under the table. i turned around and when i turned around, i saw him but i just saw like the shadow and that's when i saw the two -- like the fire and then i ended up on the ground, as well. >> reporter: so you get hit and you go down? >> uh-huh. >> reporter: what's going on in your mind at that time? >> i'm just thinking and waiting for somebody to come and save us. you always think, you know, something bad is happening that the cops get there so fast. they rush in and they help you,

you know and i was just waiting for that. i was waiting for anybody, anybody to come save us. >> reporter: we now know it would be a long and agonizing 74 minutes before police would enter reyes' classroom to kill the gunman. >> he did a lot of things to make me flinch or react in someway and that was one of them, where he like got -- like as i'm laying down, like either like this or like this tapping it but it was splashing on my face. >> reporter: the blood? >> yeah. >> reporter: was he trying to see if you were alive? >> i think so. >> reporter: you're laying there for over an hour, right? and nobody is coming to help. what do you think of that?

[crying] >> that they forgot us. they probably thought we were all dead or something but if they would have got in before, some of them probably would have made it. >> reporter: it's a question many are struggling with as precious seconds ticked by, could live haves been saved? 19 students and two teachers would lose their lives that day. the subject of multiple on going investigations it's been called one of the biggest law enforcement failures in resent memory. officers feet away on the other side of the door. >> a lot of the law enforcement failed because they take that oath to protect. i was in there to protect the

kids but i had no bullet vest or bulletproof vest or any tactical gear that they use and they had everything. >> reporter: when did you realize that the children around you were dead, were not going to make it? >> after they shot him and the border patrol said anybody get up? let's go. let's go. you know, like try to get the kids out. nobody moved but me. and then somebody else said there's children under here. the children were dead under the table. but there was nothing i could do

about it. so. >> reporter: your children. [crying] >> yeah, my children. >> reporter:. >> i was thinking the same thing -- >> reporter: he's -- he's a remarkable, remarkable man. i mean, to think about everything that he's been

through, his will to live, his will to survive and the good that he's trying to do now. you know, he lives with guilt. he lives with some guilt, the fact he survived is not uncommon but he says he gets reassurances from people there say reason why he's alive and he's hoping to make the best of his life now. he's not sure he's ever going to be able to go inside a classroom again and that's too bad because by all accounts, these children really, really loved him and the future is going to be rough for him and he knows it. it's just his way, a way of describing what happened to him and just this positive nature that he has despite everything he's been through and of course, laura, the fact that what is so upsetting and just makes me so angry and makes everyone so angry is the fact he was laying in the classroom on his stomach for more than an hour while cops were just outside and as he said, he felt like nobody would come help him.

and when they finally did, he realized how horrific everything was. >> i mean, just the question of him talking about what the officer said, telling people to get up and realizing he's the only one to move and every parent across america shimon, in that clip there is a picture of his -- i'm assuming his classroom name mr. reyes with the crayons and markers, this is outside of every menelementary school classroom in america. how is the community reacting to the texas state university report finding that officers they missed multiple opportunities to take the gunman out including before he even went into the school? is their reaction? >> reporter: yeah, so i think what is going on here is again, they're wondering why is information being released in this fashion. this is a report that was done

by this group of officials who train. they do training active shooter training and so an investigator sat with them and described everything to them. and again, we haven't had that level of briefing publicly for the parents, for the public. for the media, we can ask some questions again but yet, the investigators are finding the time and it's important work. they need to tell people who are specialists in this and who are professionals and experts in active shooters what went on here. they still owe it to the families and public. i don't think anyone is surprised by this information. they know there is a lot more there we're not being told and so they're not surprised. i think the frustration is how they are learning this i infor information. we're in day 43, i believe, since this happened. kids are going back to school in just a few weeks in the middle of august and we still, still have yet to know everything that

happened. it's just hard to believe. >> shimon, thank you for continuing to make sure we don't turn away and it takes a lot. i hope people appreciate and understand you need to be in the rooms to tell the stories and you were today. you allowed everyone to understand and these stories have to keep being shared. thank you. thank you. >> reporter: thank you, laura. unbelievable. there really are no words when you think about what has transpired. president biden is trying to talk up his economic agenda and going after republicans for opposing it. but now, even some democrats are questioning if the white house is up to the task of tackling multiple issues from the economy to abortion rights. next. you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need? like how i customized this scarf?

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god sake? my predecessor had a chance to act but not a commitment to you or the courage to stand up to his own party to get things done dismissing and ignoring the forgotten people he promised to help. remember how he's doing to help working class folks? ? t >> the president taking clear aim at republicans while inside the democratic party, there are rumblings the biden administration seems as one member of congress calls it and i quote rutterless, aimless and hopeless. let's talk about it with cnn political commentator bakari sellers and scott jennings, two of my favorite people to speak to about these issues and more. let me begin with you, bakbakar. president biden was slamming republicans for opposing his economic agenda. i'm wondering what you make of the ability of that message to breakthrough when you have democrats controlling obviously slimmer margins but the house, the senate and of course, in the oval office. can it actually gain the traction i think he's looking

f for? >> i mean, i think it's a better message. we have to do a better job of communicating many things we've done and had some level of success but at the end of the day, this is a good point. i disagree with the fact that you have a sitting united states congressman who doesn't want to put hiss name on a quote. that's terrible. the fact remains people know who the republicans are in this country and people know their policies are not good for this country but people want to know what democrats stand for. we have to continue and the president has to continue to beat the drum and be the chief communique tore in charge and i'm glad he at least was fighting with that today. >> speaking about scott and the idea, we're in this strange moment in terms of republicans and democrats competing to figure out who is going to be able to capitalize on the news that comes out from the supreme court and what is happening january 6th, as well. january 6th doesn't look very good for donald trump we can agree, which inherently doesn't really help the fact the gop knows he's the leader of their

party but republicans did get these huge wins with the roe decision among others and they seem to be in an attack mode over the economy. i'm wondering, do you think republicans are taking advantage of what is happening and some describe as the chaos in administration or the climate overall? >> well, i do think republicans are in a pretty good position in the midterms because i agree with the person that you quoted that i don't think joe biden has done much about the issues that are at top of mind for most voters. if you look at the survey, 63% of the people listed as the top issue inflation, gas prices, paying the bills, groceries, i mean, two-thirds of the country is on fire about the economy and their own personal economic situation and at the same time, joe biden's approval rating in that survey was in the mid 30s. you can see there is a disconnect between how they believe joe biden is doing in office and what they think the top priorities are. it's not rocket science.

i don't mean to denigrate my own profession but it's not rocket science. to take advantage of this is listen to what the universe is giving you. they're giving you joe biden in the mid 30s and economic issues and quality of life issues and sish circumstances to run a race and it's not good to thumb your nose at it. >> the universe did allow issues to be inherited, right, by the current administration. is there more they could be doing outside what is inherited and the other issues you're talking about? are they not doing enough to read the signs? >> clearly we're not doing enough. people will get mad at me on social media and everything else for being a democrat and actually having the audacity to not be a member of the cult like the republican for party and wig and able to not do enough on these particular issues. at the end of the day when november comes around, it's going to be a choice and going to be two choices on the ballot. you can vote for democrats who

have to get a clearer message and have to hone in on the message and focus on issues scott just talked about or vote for people like herschel walker or the young lady out in arizona who is just crazy as all hell. you get -- you have these two choices and i think that the choices are extremely clear because even if we can't get our message together and i think we should get people a reason to come out and vote for us, the republican party still are the party of january 6th and the party of people who just don't deserve to be in office. >> scott, i know you have a response to that. what do you make of it? >> well, look, i mean, don't deserve to be in office? i mean, the american people are speaking loud and clear right now whether they think joe biden deserves to be in office. heck, bakari, 70% of democrats don't want him to run for reelection. that's not my people, that's your people. that's the direction of this presidency. >> well -- >> he's not on the ballot in 2020. >> neither is donald trump but

the economy is. >> well, i'll tell ya what, gentlemen, we'll see what ends up being on the ballot particularly in 2024. a lot of grumblings right now. you don't have to go home but get off the screen temporarily. thank you. we'll be back after a quick break here. nurse mariyam sabo knows a moment this pure... ...demands a lotion this pure. new gold bond d pure moisture lotion. 24-hour hydration. nono parabens, dyes, or fragrances. gold bond. champion your skin.

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the fatal police shooting of 25-year-old jayland walker sent the residents of akron, ohio, to the streets in protest. he was killed on june 27th after he fled what police are saying was an attempted traffic stop. there was an 18-minute car chase followed by a brief foot chase. and during the car chase,

officers told dispatch that a gunshot had been fired from walker's vehicle. police also showed still images from traffic cameras that showed perhaps a muzzle flight on the driver's side of the car. during the foot chase, police say officers believed walker was reaching towards his waist. at that point, officers fired on walker, resulting in more than 60 gunshot wounds. walker was unarmed at the time of his death, but officers did find a firearm in the vehicle after the shooting. now today, at a rally in cleveland, ohio, president biden pledged that the department of justice, quote, will take the appropriate action, unquote, if violations of federal criminal statutes are found. joining me now, former nypd detective tom verney. tom, thank you for joining tonight. the number of shots, the number of officers, eight officers firing on him, leaving more than 60 wounds -- what do you make of

that response to a fleeing suspect? for many, we talk about excessive force and excessive use of force, even if initially there was some justification in pursuit. what do you make of that d dynamic? >> good evening. thank you for having me on. and quite frankly, my condolences to the walker family. i -- look, i feel bad for anyone that is killed, you know, in their interaction with a police officer and, you know, but -- there are cases where, like this one, where you have someone who is not complying with the police, being pursued in a vehicle, shooting, potentially shooting from the vehicle. the vehicle stops, he now still doesn't comply with the police, to either stop or put his hands in the air. they pursue him on foot and when he -- any movement he makes, the police are going to assume that he has the weapon on him and he's going to turn and use the

weapon against them to further his getting away from the police. >> but on that point -- one second, sorry, tom, but on that point, we know that there was not a weapon that was found on his person at the scene, but later one was recovered from the vehicle. does that change the calculus in the eyes of the officers, knowing that there was no weapon found on him when they shot? >> well, again, they, in pursuing him, there was a shot fired from the vehicle, according to, i mean, it's caught on camera, it's according to the pursuing police in their statements so far. the facts and evidence seem to corroborate that. there's a gun found in the car. you have to assume that he has the gun on him until you know that he doesn't. and unfortunately, they don't know he doesn't until, you know, until he's shot multiple times and then they catch up with him. now, the amount of shots -- and i totally understand and this is what inf furiates people, why a

there so many shots fired? you have eight police officers pursuing him. if he's turning and making that movement as if he's going to turn and fire at them, they are authorized by the law, by their training, to open fire to stop the threat of them potentially being shot. they've already been shot at once. so, they're not going to take that chance again. now, every officer -- some officers are going to fire once or twice, some might unload the entire magazine. officers will react differently, you know, in a crisis situation such as that, even though most training dictates in most cases for officers to fire maybe two, three times at a volley and if they have the ability to reassess, to reassess and then follow through with more firing if they have to. >> and yet we see, i mean, the amount of shots, i mean, really, the investigation will continue and i hope to learn more information and we extend our condolences to the family. we'll follow this story and get to the bottom of it.

thank you for watching, everyone. and thank you for your time. our coverage continues.

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good evening. authorities say the man now charged in the shooting deaths of seven people in illinois has confessed to opening fire on the city's independence day parade. this video taken in the moment from inside one of the local stores just across the street from the gunman's location. the store's owner who said the manage whole helped lead people to safety has a wife and father who were wounded, but both are doing fine tonight. we also learned today that police believe the gunman fled to wisconsin afterward, where he