those lights are some of the first galaxies to form in the universe billions of years ago. what you see is a speck of sky the size of a grain of sand held at arm's length. the spblurring is the light bei bent between them and us. gravit gravitational lensing, something to make even einstein smile. and i have to do more research to understand what that means. i'll hand it over to laura coates for "cnn tonight." >> thank, anderson. i know e equals mc squared, that's all i can get you today. i am laura coates and this is "cnn tonight." steve bannon threw down the gauntlet after being contempt of court in november. he threatened to raise, well,

complete holy hell, remember? >> this is going to be the misdemeanor from hell for merrick garland, joe biden, and nancy pelosi. they took on the wrong guy this time. >> well, that's what makes the one-time trump white house advisers move now, well, extra confounding because eight months ago, bannon said that he wasn't backing down ever. i mean, the wrong guy this time, right? well, trial dates have a funny way of making people change their minds, shall we say, because now he is, well, backing down. willing to testify before that very committee that he seemed to be mocking and taunting. now, what exactly changed other than maybe the calendar date? we're going to dig a lot deeper into all of that tonight along with new january 6th hearing developments. and if bannon thought his decision to testify now would call someone's bluff at the doj,

well he's surely mistaken because a trial is still happening and it won't even be postponed. a federal judge denied his legal team's request to delay his trial today, and it will start, as planned, one week from today. the doj made clear the charges weren't being filed to try to persuade him to testify some day in the future. so, the contempt was to punish him to fail to testify in the past and saying, quote, this is little more than an attempt to change the optics of his contempt on the eve of trial. and eve is right if it starts next monday. and remember, think back to the very reason that he gave for not testifying in the first place. bannon claimed that former president trump had muzzled him, really, by asserting executive privilege. now trump put out a letter waiving that privilege to clear the way for his long-time ally to testify. of course, it's not actually clear whether there was ever any

applicable knowledge to be clear of, one that would give steve bannon some carte blanche to go mute. as they say, wait, there's more. in another related twist, the doj says the fbi interviewed this guy, former trump lawyer, justin clark, just two weeks ago. and this man claimed that trump never invoked executive privilege over anything related to steve bannon. so, did trump then waive what he never asserted? we'll think on that in just a moment. meanwhile, as the eve of another potentially consequential hearing for trump world, the house select committee will seek to directly tie far right extremists, including groups like the oath keepers, like the proud boys whose members were charged with seditious conspiracy to donald trump and his associates. the panel will be zooming in on long-time trump loyalist roger stone and michael flynn. now, we already know the oath keepers, they've given sort of

security for roger stone's events. and he's denied, as we've said, knowing any of the plans to storm the capitol. a former oath keeper spokesman is now going to testify, we're told, as maybe a key witness tomorrow. prosecutors say that some oath keepers members actually brought explosives to the dc area around january 6th and had a, quote, death list. and this committee says it is going to really hone in tomorrow on how this violent mob all came together. and in their body of evidence, so to speak, members are going to say they will lay out how donald trump's tweet, as the president of the united states back on december 19, 2020, that the be there, be wild tweet, that was called some sort of a siren call to the mob and actually became a catalyst for the violence that we then saw. in fact, listen to member jamie raskin and how he defines it. >> the first time in american

history when a president of the united states called a protest against his own government, in fact, to try to stop the counting of electoral college votes in a presidential election he had lost. >> so, could the trump white house counsel pat cipollone's testimony that we know happened last friday -- is that going to connect some of these dots for us? i mean he was at the reportedly heated meeting in the oval office that had allegedly had a talk about seizing voting machines right before that tweet was sent out. a source familiar with the testimony tells cnn that he was asked extensively about his role in that meeting and also what was discussed. and apparently we're going to even see some snippets of his testimony, the kind we've seen in other hearings as well. the committee is thought to play some of those testimonial moments in video tomorrow. as for the steve bannon drama, shall we say, i'm going to turn

to two people with very valuable insight, cnn commentator jonah goldberg, who knows steve bannon, and mark fisher, who has interviewed him several times and written extensively about bannon's relationship with donald trump. he's senior editor at the "washington post." i'm glad that you're both here. i want to begin with you because you don't know him very well, of course, but you have known him before he was part of the administration for trump. and i'm just wondering what you think steve bannon is doing, what this game is. is it a game? he wants to testify now, likely to be in public, right? surprise, surprise, you want to have a platform, maybe a show. is it a show? or is it a change of heart do you think? >> oh, i think it's a show. i don't think -- the people are going to try to turn this into some sort of complex mystery, more layers than a steve bannon ensemble because he likes to wear a lot of layers. he said his own philosophy about how to deal with political warfare, deal with democrats,

deal with the media, is to flood the show with -- this is a family show -- fecal matter. >> thank you for that. even in prime time, good for you. >> that's part of what he is doing here. the real test -- i would believe that he actually wants to cooperate with the committee in a sincere, good faith way if he wasn't about to go on trial. if he said he was willing to hand over all the documents and communications the committee asks for, text messages, emails, all that. he was deeply involved with a lot of the grifter networks that planned the stop the steal thing from the beginning. that's not part of his offer. his offer is to do a live testimony that will flood the zone with various manner that hits the fan -- he wants to be the fan. he wants to make a big scene. >> a part of me wants to see how many times you want to allude to it and not say it. >> don't dare me. >> i'm not going to dare you now, but i'm going to bring mark into the conversation.

mark, before the proverbial hits the fan, steve bannon has not agreed, i don't think, to hand over any documents. what's curious to me is remember he was really persona non grata to donald trump at one point. it was as if they left with a romance intact. do you think as part of this, trump putting out here waiving the privilege he never actually had, sort of a final nail in the coffin to say, no, no, no, you and i, we're not friends? >> well, steve bannon, donald trump, talk about gainsmanship, the two of them have been going at each other for quite some years now. and what's happening here is bannon is a way for trump to push back against the january 6th committee. put bannon out there knowing he's there to disrupt things. bannon has been very clear about this from the start. he's not hiding his motives here. he talks about it on his podcast

all the time. he wants to delegitimize the biden presidency. that was his motive in supporting the january 6th demonstration and in saying that all hell would break loose that day. so, that's what he's doing now too. he wants to disrupt this january 6th investigative committee that has been pretty successful of putting on a show of its own and presenting its message and presenting the public with carefully curated hearings each day. he wants this to be his live performance, where he can turn things upside do you know. but the gainsmanship goes both ways, and the committee understands what he's up to. and they want the kind of control that they've asserted over every one of the hearings so far, where they interview people in advance for hours on end and then only pick out the choice pits to present to the public. >> jonah, for you, you look at this issue a little bit in that same vein, as in, you know, on the one hand, it's important to get the messaging out in the sense that here's what happened.

here's what led up to it. but you've been pretty critical about the idea of how the actual production has been done, not in terms of the, you know, the logistics but the idea of not having this be the invitation for trump allies to speak more vocally about their fans. i wonder, has cha thing thatted over time, given that the people who have testified largely are trump supporters and allies and parts of the administration? >> my view is i'm sympathetic to the larger aims of the committee, which is to get a historical record out there. i think the idea of a criminal referral is deeply fraught, but we don't need to get into that. but the reason that -- the committee is set up in such a way that it gives ample good faith criticisms to its critics. it is one sided. no one testifies to that committee unless the committee know what is the answers to the questions are going to be. it is not typically how a normal

congressional committee is organized. that is not entirely on the democrats, as trump supporters want to claim. the republicans got what they wished for. they want to delegitimize them and they got the structure they thought would work best for them. and it hasn't worked out that way. what i tell people, jamie raskin and bennie thompson, they're partisan democrats. when i talk to fellow conservatives, i say, i don't care what they say. i care about the fact, as you alluded to, that virtually every witness except for two or three people has been not just a republican, not just a conservative, but until basically january 6th a die-hard trump supporter. these are these people saying it, and the only people who could rebut it are the ones pleading the fifth and refusing to cooperate. >> mark, does that matter to you? does that make a bigger impact, the idea of you don't want to be criminally fraught, jonah? but does it make a difference to the audience, the consuming

electorate, those the committee is wanting to persuade what happened. does it make a difference who is the speaker? it's kind of the opposite of killing the messenger. it's putting them in the front row. >> i think it does make a difference, and i think we're seeing some of the softening of the support for trump in the wake of this investigation that there is a mentally developing among republicans, among trump supporters, that this was really a very bad situation on january 6th, that people are not telling the truth about it on trump's side, and that upstanding republicans are coming forward and blowing the whistle. and that's been the clear, consistent message of these hearings. but it does have to be said that there has not been the kind of back and forth, the kind of cross-examination, the kind of hostile witnesses that we generally see in congressional investigations of this sort. and if the public harkens back to not just the watergate

hearings, but many others through history, there is this expectation that there's going to be that kind of confrontation. and we haven't seen that. that may kind of deplete some of the drama that one expects from this kind of an investigative hearing. >> or it could mean, gentleman, that perhaps january 6th is not the rorschach test it's been made out to be. maybe the reason there hasn't been this is because people's eyes actually saw what happened. more on this later. thank you both. i appreciate it. now, once again, we see the select committee changing its hearing schedule with little warning. the last time it did so, we had cassidy hutchinson, and she came and her testimony, i mean, stunned so many people. dare i say the nation. so, what does this latest change in plans suggest about where the probe could be headed or where it's not as we get new details tonight? that's next. or an intense burning sensation. what is this nighthtmare? it's h how some people describe... shingles.

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moved a major prime time hearing slated for thursday. now it's going to be next week. the delay will give investigators time to process the, quote, new and important information, unquote that they say the panel is actually getting on a daily basis. the news, of course, comes amid bannon's about-face about testifying and after white house counsel pat cipollone sat for over seven hours of questioning on friday. we're going to hear part of cipollone's testimony for the first time tomorrow. joining us to guest is elliott ill yams, and miles taylor. i'm glad you're still here. and this guy is still here. i'm just kidding. you're here. i'm glad you're here. elliott, let me ask you this question. look, the fact that they are moving the hearing date again -- forget the schedulesment i'm not taking it personally. they're moving it again.

this is not the first time we've had a hearing date be moved. does it say anything to you? a prime time event to me said, this is going to happen? is it not going to happen? >> you used the words, laura, prime-time event. think of how often you see congressional hearings in prime time. and they want to get it right. think about the fact also that in the last couple of weeks we've heard from pat cipollone and cassidy hutchinson's testimony came out of nowhere for the most part. people knew she was out there, but at the end of the day it was new, late breaking information and evidence. they want to get it right. i was deputy assistant attorney general of the justice department preparing witnesses for hearings, and congress thinks about these things a great deal. so, i wouldn't read too much into it. i think they'll get a better product by waiting and delaying. >> better get it right. they say though, right, perfection is the enemy of progress -- whatever the phrase is. >> some other word. >> who knows? >> i'm going to be a tiny bit

less charitable than elliott and just say, look, congressional committees are an s show -- i'll just bleep myself. i've worked on congressional committees. they can be really difficult. the committee is doing a great job bringing out its polished intelligence. but behind the scenes, these things are fly by the seat of your pants last minute. and put on top of that -- what elliott said, this is in prime time. but there's a second more important factor. at the end of the day, the most significant take away from these delays is the new people are coming forth. a year and a half after january 6th, the fact that new people are coming forward telling you new things but also that they are having an effect, not necessarily on swaying the masses or having impact on whether trump will run again. they're having impact on scaring people around donald trump. >> does it make him a martyr though. think about steve bannon, for example -- i hear your point,

absolutely. but jonah, the idea, if you're saying, i'm willing to testify. i want to do it publicly, and they shoot you down, is that counterproductive for this committee for the same reasons? >> i think you could make the argument that maybe -- it's certainly going to be a talking point on the right. oh, they're afraid to let bannon do his thing. sort of a counterintuitive thing here. i completely understand and kind of agree with you, when you say prime-time event, you think, okay, it's like the oscars. they got it down to a tee. in a counterintuitive way, the fact that they keep doing this way kind of lends itself to the drama of reality show in the sense of oh, my gosh, what's going to happen next, twists and turns, because it makes it more unpredictable. the cassidy hutchinson thing made it seem like more of an unfolding event in real time, and that probably keeps people's attention to this. got to remember, a lot of people determined -- tucker carlson refused to take a commercial break for the first hearing

because he didn't think it deserved any attention whatsoever. now there are people on the right paying attention. some are hate watching it. some are mad. some are screaming at the tv like it's pro wrestling, but they're watching. i think this zigzagging thing does probably speak tie lot of ointernal turmoil at the committee and a lot of facts coming at them fast. but it also keeps people's eyes on it. >> can we take a moment to embrace the cleverness of steve bannon for a minute. >> no. actually no. >> it put the committee in an interesting position because if they put him on in a live hearing -- they're not going to. or may not. he turns into a circus about the deep state and all sorts of conspiracy theories and so on. if they don't, now they're silencing us and they're not letting me speak and this was a one-sided kangaroo court from the beginning. they have -- it's not a reality show, per se, but they have some gainsmanship here to figure out

how to sort of win this back or win it. >> you can't have it both ways iflt strikes me, people are saying, listen, there's not both sides represented. there's not other people able to testify. and they say, this is not a criminal proceeding. you can't treat it as such. if it were a courtroom, i would agree, they have the defense on their case. they have the due process element of it. this is not that. can they have it both ways in the sense of saying, this is not supposed to be a same proceeding and have the requirements of due process. even, of course, they had their chance. mccarthy said, pull everyone out. leave just what he calls the r.h.i.n.o.s. >> bannon had his shot. he should have come and spoken to the committee when he was subpoenaed to speak to the committee. he's being prosecuted for it right now. to do the showman thing -- which is what bannon is. he's a showman -- seems far too

exploitive of the process. he hasn't sat down with the committee. everyone we've seen testify has first met with the committee behind closed doors so they can understand, compare that with other information. for bannon not to do that would be a mistake on the committee's part and not serve the public. i think at a minimum they need to have a conversation with him behind closed doors and see what they find. we're in the buzzer shot position of the committee. >> it would have been a better gambit if it didn't coincide with him desperately trying to delay his trial. >> the trial is on monday. the idea of -- not the 11th hour. this is still going to happen, by the way. and i still wonder is this trumped by essentially saying, you can go ahead and talk. is that his last sort of screw you on this? >> it doesn't change the fact that he's been charged with criminal contempt. >> for his past. >> for his past behavior. whether he shows up here or not, that doesn't change the fact he owes them documents, and number

two, didn't come in when they wanted him to the first time. i was teasing about the cleverness thing, it's sinister cleverness. >> we're all aware of sarcasm at this table. >> thank you so much. >> i like this panel. stick around, guys, everyone. join cnn's drew griffin for a new investigation into steve bannon and his master plan to reshape the u.s. government and the republican party. the cnn special report "steve bannon: divided we fall" begins sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. coming up here with the committee trying to salvage the connection between the extremists and the trump white house leading up to january 6th, i'll be joined by a former homeland security secretary. i wonder if she thinks the government is doing enough to try to stop more bloodshed. we'll ask her next.

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will learn more about the role that right wing extremists played in the january 6th attack. since that day, the domestic terror threat has frankly only grown. in a new watchdog report, warns the department of homeland security could, quote, do more to address the threat, unquote. and it, quote, may not be able to proactively prevent and protect the nation, unquote. now, few people know the challenges more than my next guest. she was the homeland security

secretary during the obama administration, janet na pal tanoh. welcome to the program. i'm glad to have you here on a night like this. >> thank you. >> secretary, i have to ask, you, i remember, in 2009, the dhs under you, issued a report called "right wing extremism." that was 2009. how have things changed to date? is it worse in your mind? >> oh, it's worse. the threat of domestic extremism has grown. it's metastasized. it's, if anything, become more well-organized. i think the role of social media in this process can't be overestimated. it's an extraordinarily difficult problem. >> you know n that vein, i think about the idea, sometimes you see commercial for meta or

facebook talking about, find your people, the idea of people being able to find one another. the role of social media in particular, there are these private and encrypted chatrooms that are pops up all around. in fact, the proud boys leader was communicating in an encrypted group. and i'm wondering what sort of threat that poses for dhs and trying to tap into it. is it an overwhelming burden to try to figure out where to go next then? >> well, it's certainly difficult. and it requires an extraordinary amount of kind of resource intensiveness to monitor what you can on social media. it also requires really good coordination with local law enforcement, with other community groups, people in the general citizenry. you know, everybody has a role to play here. but these groups, like i said, they've just grown and

metastasized over the last decade. >> secretary, when i hear sometimes the phrase of, everyone has a role to play, and given the idea there has to be the symbiotic relationship between local government and of course federal, i wonder at times, is dhs even prepare snd if it's a patchwork, state by state, for example, of how one deals with the issue, it feels like a losing game. >> look, i'm not going to, you know, say it's easy. it's not. it's very, very difficult. what dhs has to do is monitor as best they can and coordinate as best they can. but we live in a big country with lots of players in it in the law enforcement realm, in the community realm. it's just very difficult. you know, we started a campaign when i was secretary, see something, say something, which was designed to get every

citizen occulturated to the notion that everyone has a role to play here. the stakes are very high. these extremist groups are trying to undermine our country, trying to undermine our democracy. that's what we saw on january 6th. so, it's a very serious homeland security issue. >> secretary, part of me wonders if people have taken that so literally and in a different way, the see something, say something. because part of extremists groups, they are very vocal about the things they believe in. they're saying things in a way that is either enticing others to join and act out their political dissent in ways i think was not contemplated when people spoke about the freedom of speech and the first amendment and addressing grievances and trying to use the government as a way and vehicle to do what people want for representation purposes. do you wonder how to make and how the dhs can navigate this

and really thread a difficult needle about on the one hand people being proactive and speaking out and then holding them to account for when they go too far? >> right. and that's really one of the chief challenges, which is that, you know, freedom of speech is protected in our country. but acting out on that speech to commit acts of violence, to form conspiracies and the like, that's not protected by the first amendment. that's where judgment comes in. and judgment by the department, by the fbi, by others who are charged with protecting the security of our country. >> well, secretary, thank you. nice speaking with you. >> you bet. thank you. look, the committee says it's planning to zero in tomorrow on kind of what we're talking about today, this one meeting that took place in the oval office a couple weeks before the insurrection. and they're going to spotlight

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they might, we have to go back to december 2020. that month began with bill barr saying publicly that there was no widespread fraud. the same day, issued this warning. >> someone's going to get hurt. someone's going to get shot. someone's going to get killed. >> well, in the weeks that followed, the stop the steal movement picked up steam with rallies across the country. many of them turning violent. at one rally in particular, december 11th, right here in d.c., we know enrique tarrio was in the crowd. he met with long-time trump ally, roger stone, there. t tarrio is head of the proud boys and he's facing seditious conspiracy charges. another leader was coming up with some kind of plan. ste

stewart rhodes. he wrote if joe biden became president, quote, it will be a bloody and desperate fight. we are going to fight. that can't be avoided, unquote. now, the next day, tarrio posted a picture of ohimself at the white house. the administration would say that he was just there on a public tour. but we know within the executive branch, donald trump was open to more fringe ideas, shall we say. on december 14th, him and the doj leadership pushed ideas like pushing a special counsel and maybe even seizing voting machines. >> mr. donahue, can you explain what the president did after he was told that the justice department would not seize voting machines? >> the president was very agitated. >> well, he would still be agitated days later because when the doj wouldn't do it, folks like sidney powell and michael

flynn and rudy giuliani were in the oval office pushing many of the same ideas. >> well, one of the things that people are going to learn is the fundamental importance of a meeting that took place in the white house on december 18th. and on that day, the group of lawyers -- of outside lawyers who have been denominated team crazy by people in and around the white house -- came in to try to urge several new courses of action, including the seizure of voting machines around the country. >> white house counsel pat cipollone, he was in that meeting. and then he told the committee just how insane the meeting was. a few hours later, donald trump was on twitter calling for his supporters to come to washington on january 6th and promising it with, quote, will be wild.

>> people are going to hear the story of that tweet and then the explosive effect it had in trump world and specifically among the domestic violent extremist groups, the most dangerous political extremists in the country. >> are and many of the same people who were in that december 18th meeting, folks like michael flynn and rudy giuliani, they'd also be at the so-called war room that are at the willard hotel in the days before january 6th. and you'll remember, trump's chief of staff mark meadows, he wanted to be there with him. >> mr. meadows had a conversation with me where he wanted me to work with secret service on a movement from the white house to the willard hotel so he could attend the meeting or meetings with mr. giuliani and his associates in the war room. >> also there, roger stone. the proud boys were his security for him apparently on january 6th.

and steve bannon, who famously offered this preview of january 6th. >> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. just understand this. all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. >> i see a trend with the word "hell." so, how important is that timeline and tomorrow's testimony from the former oath koo kooepers spokesman? we'll look at that and an alleged death list that was kept by another oath keeper when "cnn tonight" returns. ♪ pop rock ♪ >> tech: ...we can replace your windshield and recalibrate your advanced safety system. >> dad: looks great. thanks. > tech: stay safe with safelite. schedule now. > singers: ♪ safelite repai, safelite replace. ♪ >> tech: need to get yoyour windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy. >> tech vo: you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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what's the #1 retinol brand used most by dermatologists? it's neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® smooths the look of fine lines in 1-week, deep wrinkles in 4. so you can kiss wrinkles goodbye! neutrogena® . new insight tonight about the witnesses expected at tomorrow's january 6th hearing, sources telling cnn at least one will be a rioter from the insurrection. steven airs, an ohio man who accused joe biden and other democrats of, quote, treason, pleading guilty to entering the capitol last month. we're all expected to hear from jason van, a former spokesperson and self-described propagandist for the oath keepers. it's testimony like that, which will be crucial for investigators looking to establish some link between the

trump white house and domestic extremists who led the mob into the capitol that day. my panel is back with me. yes, jonah is still here. there you go. >> tough crowd. >> i'm glad you're all still here. i'm just winking at you about it. listen, it is a very big ask if you're going to be able to convince the public there's a link between extremists and donald trump. remember the michael cohen phenomenon, the idea of he wasn't particularly explicit about saying instructional things, you do this. listen to this. remember this? >> that's how he speaks. he doesn't give you questions. he doesn't give you orders. he speaks in a code. and i understand the code because i've been around him for a decade. >> and it's your impression that others who work for him understand the code as well. >> most people, yes. >> okay. elliott, i mean, it works from a decade of knowledge. but how about the oath keepers, the proud boys.

arguably they haven't been following him as the president of the united states for ten years. he hasn't been -- he was not the president for that amount of time. is that convincing for somebody other than michael cohen if you're trying to bridge that gap. >> it's tough. there's two rules to being a prosecutor, don't wear bright colored jewelry in front of a jury and criminal intent is the rule. >> i broke the jewelry rule all the time. i was vivacious. >> no coupling in front of the jury. criminal intent is hard to prove. and linking someone he intended to carry out an action is just difficult to do. the crime itself of seditious conspiracy is using force to prevent, hinder, or deliver business of the united states. you've got that from the oath keepers and proud boys that are charged. proving that the president conspired with them, agreed with them, met with them is just challenging in that link. the committee is challenging the december 18th meeting. there might have been some

conversation where they were aware in the white house of what they were going to do, but that link was going to be challenging to do. even if you can't charge him, it's disgraceful conduct. and let's be clear, it should never have happened by any elected official in the united states. >> you're nodding your head because the disgraceful part of it. part of the committee's goal seems to be -- i don't think i'm stretching the truth here to say i interpret their behavior as saying they're trying to disqualify them in the eyes of the electorate. this is not somebody who should not be president of the united states. is that convincing if you have to bridge that gap? you have michael flynn, roger stone, who know trump more than, say, the oath keepers or proud boys over the last several years. >> yeah, i get impeachment flashbacks during a lot of these conversations. because during impeachment you had a lot of lawyers -- i'm not a lawyer -- i still see my reflection in the mirror. >> oh! what! >> you talk about me like i'm some -- >> okay. >> as i said, jonah goldberg,

for some reason is still here. >> i rest my undershirt wells come in and say the sesame discriminate. sanders doesn't meet -- political impeachments are political acts not criminal. this is not a criminal courtroom. and the goal of it -- i would like the consequence of it to be disqualifying trump from public office and all of that. but the aim of this should just be to let the record. and i think you're absolutely right. if they try to beat the benefit. go beyond the reasonable doubt kind of thing. all that has to do is proof, but i think a sort of obvious. that this was foreseeable. given the advice he was getting from team crazy that was ryan himself with. he reject the people who don't think he did want to hear. and brought in the cuckoo bird's like, sydney powell. who told him exactly what he wanted to hear. and roger stone and these guys invited these people, they got rid of these people, and just

let america connect the dots. you don't have to hammer down all those thoughts. >> you can lead horse to water, don't get tied into. drink >> at the risk of siding on down on the were side of the table. and against the. all i would say this, -- >> maybe there's a criminal case to be made there. i would annoy thing about it. but the common sense case to be make is that of course donald trump has links to violent extremist groups. but a year before the election. i said if he loses the things i want and tragically. because he's already conceding the narrative a violent coup, and civil war. but take the timeline even further back that. that in the first year he was in office. my old boss, john kelly, we all remember him. after charlottesville blowing his head when the president was trying to give the extremists a pass. by saying it was really both sides hint that domestic terrorism attack. and year two of the terrorism -- donald trump ignored the rising terrorism numbers which saw the white house and didn't do a

strategy. and your story had a terrorist attack in el paso, with the shooter use his language of an inpatient southern border. and the fourth, there you have donald trump saying stand back and stand by to the oath keepers. and in 2021, the fifth year, you had a terrorist attack on the united states capitol. let's be clear, i will say this lightly. this was a domestic terrorism attack. a homeland security attack which has a very clear pattern starting with the presidents permissive attitude towards domestic stream. this all the way to potentially people on his team coordinating with those associates of violent behavior. >> we watched all unfold on tv and didn't stop until -- you might be a lawyer not even know it because you just laid out perfectly for civil suits against the president. talk about crimes on one and and political consequence on the. other but the middle ground is, civil suits, recently sued the president. and the same theory. we are going after the plan of the. rarely happened in charlottesville was virginia with unite the right rally. were people who planned where

it necessarily the once carrying out the violence. but they're able to be sued in civil suits. that argument is moving forward in courts now, the number of police officers, members of congress who were injured or harmed in some way or bring suits against the president. even if you are not going to see the criminal charges. you're going to see lawsuits. >> the bring suits against some who are at least sitting members of congress. or at least part of the conversation. not just the former president of the united states. what about sitting members of congress? i mean, we haven't heard enough in my mind, about who is still there. who may have had a hand or roll. there's been a focus, it seems almost singular times, against until trump. but, he did not act alone. there are people who are calling back and forth if he acted at all. are we gonna hear more? do you want to hear more from members of congress? or is that sort of the beating of the dead horse. >> this is one of the reasons why we needed a 9/11 style commission, in my opinion. this is so much bigger than a somewhat lopsided select

committee is going to be able to handle. the 9/11 commission took gifts to look into this, again, 9/11 was a terrace attack. this really genuinely was by definition a terrorist attack. it needs that more thorough review. i am worried that by the time we get to the end of this. we actually won't have a complete picture. we've got a lot more information then we had a year and a half ago but we won't because of the resistance we saw from the gop to end up creating that type of full-fledged. commission >> okay williams, jonah goldberg, and mueller. just for the record. we have seen our reflections as lawyers and i like mud thank you so much everyone. we give you a hard time with a great conversation have all of you here. we'll be right back in just a moment. pliers, and a phone open to libertymutual.com they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need... and a blowtorch. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. libiberty. ♪

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thank you everyone for watching. today's especially sweet. it is my birthday today.

it is my 42nd year. i'm calling it my jackie robinson year. so encourage you to follow his logic, when he says, a life has no meaning unless it has a good impact on others. so i challenge you are and happy birthday to me to have an impact on the best kind of way. i'll be back on wednesday night. don lemon tonight starts right now. >> i don't believe. it you have always been truthful, but i don't think are telling the truth about your age. i know that you are much much younger and you want people to think that -- i think you transpose the numbers. 24. >> let's not argue don. let's not argue. 24 is just fine with me. >> happy birthday to you, thank you so much for last week, i got to spend the week with my entire family up from louisiana. we had such a great time. we are on the water, we took both trips, we went to the beach, we swam, we barbecued. it was so nice and i can tell you the important family. so go