to show the response, the police response. and the governor's response and the state as examples of what not to do and how not to treat relatives whose children have been murdered because the way they have been treated is shameful. andrew mccabe, shimon prokupecz, i appreciate it. >> much ahead from today's historic seventh hearing. did the former president try to contact a witness personally? more on that, john dean also joins us who said he wanted a, quote, pat cipollone moment, and emotional scenes for capitol hill police officers who survived the attack. we're coming right back. under budget too! and i get t seven days to love it or my y money back... i love it! i thought online meant no one t to help me, but susan from carvana had all the ananswers. she didn't try to upsell me. not once, because they're not salespeople! what are you...? guess who just checked in on me? mom... susan from carvana! [laughs] we'll drive you happy at carvana.

discover theratears®. like no other dry-eye drop in the world. with the 5 vital electrolytes found in natural tears, theratears® is one-of-a-kind hydration that feels like silk. theratears®. a drop like no other™.

. a troubling theme in these hearings made a return appearance today. the vice chair of the committee, liz cheney, laid it out in her closing remarks. >> after our last hearing, president trump tried to call a witness in our investigation, a witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. that person declined to answer or respond to president trump's call. and instead alerted their lawyer to the call. their lawyer alerted us. and this committee has supplied that information to the department of justice. let me say one more time, we will take any effort to

influence witness testimony very seriously. >> for more on how this is being handled, we're joined by cnn senior justice correspondent evan perez. is the committee going as far as accusing the former president of witness tampering? >> it really does sound like it, jake. and we know that according to the deputy chairwoman, i believe, i guess that's what we call liz cheney on that committee. she says they referred this or sent this over to the justice department. we know also, jake, that in a previous hearing, the committee described what it said were efforts to certainly seems to intimidate another witness, cassidy hutchinson, reminding her that the former president reads transcripts. that somebody was aware that she was going in for her deposition. so there seems to be a pattern that the committee is very concerned about. and that is something that the justice department certainly would take seriously. i will say, though, jake, just

the description of what ms. cheney described during the hearing today just that alone doesn't quite meet the definition of interference of witness tampering, but perhaps there's additional information that prosecutors could get to that would make it much more serious. >> evan, you and i and others at cnn have been covering for a long time donald trump's attempt to overturn the election. it's started long before january 6th, 2021, of course. and i want to turn to some new audio we got of steve bannon obtained by mother jones magazine's dan friedman. friedman reports this is from october 31st, 2020. days before the election. let's take a listen to some of that audio. >> what trump's going to do is declare victory. he's going to declare victory. but that doesn't mean he's a winner. he's just going to say he's a winner. >> the democrats, more of our people vote early that count.

theirs vote in may, so they're going to have a natural disadvantage and trump is going to take advantage. he's going to declare himself a winner. when you wake up wednesday morning, it's going to be a fire storm. he's going to say they stole it. i'm going to direct the attorney general to shut down the ballot places in all 50 states. he's not going out easy. if biden is winning, trump is going to do some crazy [ bleep ]. >> and jake, that's pretty much what trump ended up doing, right? he holds a press conference. he basically says, you know, i know that i won the election. the thing that messes this up, obviously, is the early call from fox news that said arizona had gone in the column of joe biden. but jake, keep in mind, some of the things we learned from this investigation, from this committee, is that, you know, trump had hired some legal team,

members of his legal team in preparation for just this, as far back as august and september, before the election. so he seemed to have a plan ahead of time, at least that's what we learned from this committee. and so you see it play out in some of that audio from steve bannon, and we see what the former president was trying to do, which was to first of all sow doubt about the late incoming results, which we knew and which everyone knew was going to come, because of some of the measures that had been taken to deal with the coronavirus. so all of this was sort of a playbook that the former president was prepared to deploy, knowing that even he didn't really care how the results were. he was going to declare victory no matter what. >> i should note we reached out to steve bannon for comment. a spokesman sent about a statement that read in part, nothing on the recording hasn't already been said on war room, his podcast, or multiple other

shows. >> another constant in these hearings is the presence in the gallery of law enforcement officers. and former officers who defended the capitol on january 6th. some of whom were badly hurt doing it. today, committee member congressman jamie raskin recognized one of them, capitol police sargen aquilino gonell. >> last month, on june 28th, sergeant gonell's team of doctors told him that permanent injuries he has suffered to his left shoulder and right foot now make it impossible for him to continue as a police officer. he must leave policing for good and figure out the rest of his life. sergeant gonell, we wish you and your family all the best. we are here for you. we salute you for your valor, your eloquence, and your beautiful commitment to america. and wonder what former president trump would say to someone like sergeant gonell, who must now go about remaking his life.

i wonder if he could even understand what motivates a patriot like sergeant gonell. >> with us now, one of sergeant gonell's comrades on the january 6th attack, capitol police officer harry dunn. officer dunn, you have attended all of the hearings the committee has held publicly. you heard live testimony from someone who was one of the rioters, who breached the capitol on january 6th. what did you make of that? >> well, going back real quick, when you just teased the intro to the segment when you talked about former officers. that sucks to hear, man, because on january 5th, it wasn't former officers. that just sucks to hear that, because though guys, those other three gentlemen i served with and what a great, great -- that's what you want from police, just good individuals who take their job seriously, who take their oath seriously, so that kind of resonated with

me a little bit. as far as the individuals' testimony, i was irritated by it. the individual who was charged, he spoke about how his life was ruined, and some of the bad things that happened to him. as we just talked about, we have two people that are no longer going to be police officers. also sitting next to sergeant gonell and michael fanone was a widow of an officer, jeffrey smith. you talk about her life never being the same, so forgive me if i show a lack of sympathy towards that individual and what he's lost. he made a choice. and the other individuals made sacrifices. >> yeah, and let's not forget, of course, officer brian sicknick, who died that day, and his family believes it was related to the trauma he withstood. we have interviewed officer sicknick's mother, gladys, and

his former girlfriend, and they're always in our thoughts. so i hear you when it comes to how much anybody should feel bad for the rioter, steven ayers. obviously, his testimony -- >> i talked to mrs. -- >> go ahead. >> i talked to mrs. sicknick during the hearing, she texted me during the hearing and said it was tough for her to watch. so god bless her. i love her to death, and i just have to keep showing up, at least for people like her, people that don't -- that can't do it. so we're going to see this all the way through and hopefully see that justice gets served at the end. >> even if you don't have sympathy for steven ayers, and i certainly understand your position, i thought it was worthwhile to hear his testimony, him saying he hung on donald trump's every word. that if donald trump had told his supporters to go home hours earlier, maybe some if not all of the violence could have been prevented. don't you think?

>> well, yeah. and actually not just his testimony, but if you look at the text messages that were obtained by the january 6th committee, prominent news anchors, advisers at the white house kept saying he's got to say something, he's got to stop this. people are going to die. you have members of congress saying that he needs to do something. so not only did ms. ayers know -- not only was he hanging on his words, the members of congress, the elected leaders, the news anchors, they knew that it was important for him to speak out, too, and he did not. >> at the end of the hearing, steven ayers approached you and your fellow officers, fanone, gonell, hodges. you tweeted about it afterward. somebody had posted on twitter referencing the moment as an apology given and accepted. you responded, apology given. end quote. so what did steven ayers say to you, and how did it make you feel at the time? >> well, he apologized.

and that's what it was. it kind of caught me off guard. we're sitting there still processing, a couple minutes before that, sergeant gonell had to excuse himself from the hearing room because he got overwhelmed with emotion. i went out there after him, and come back in, and you know, we're still trying to process that, and then we're just ambushed for lack of a better word with this individual, you know, forcing an apology on us. and i mean, it's right to apologize. he owes the entire country and anybody who was harmed that day emotionally, physically, he owes them an apology also. however, i acknowledged it, but i don't necessarily accept it. that takes some time. >> officer harry dunn, as always, thank you. we appreciate you. >> thank you. today was our first time hearing from pat cipollone's testimony, which included a lengthy testimony on mike pence resisting pressure to take part in the former president's last

ditch scheme to overturn the election on the 6th. >> i thought that the vice president did not have the authority to do what was being suggested under a proper reading of the law. i conveyed that, i think i actually -- somebody in the vice president's, just blame me. i'm not a politician. you know, i don't -- but i just said, i'm a lawyer. this is my legal opinion. but let me tell you this. and i say a word about the vice president. >> please. >> i think the vice president did the right thing. i think he did the courageous thing. i have a great deal of respect for vice president pence. i would work with him very closely, i think he understood my opinion. i think he understood my opinion afterwards as well. i think he did a great service to this country.

and i think i suggested to somebody that he should be given the presidential medal of freedom for his actions. >> joining us is richard nixon's white house counsel and watergate star witness, john dean. you have been vocal in the past for the need for pat cipollone to testify. how much or did his testimony change the dynamics of this investigation? >> we don't know yet because we only have tidbits from his testimony. i was watching that clip and thinking about the text i exchanged with my wife earlier, where we had a little trouble with that, kind of gagged on it. it looked to me like he was soliciting business from trump world, for those who are sane, anyway, which has been one of the problems that delayed his testimony. we also know he did invoke the privilege occasionally in his testimony. so anderson, we don't have a picture yet. i think next week is going to be the cipollone moment, if there is one. and i look forward to it. >> do you agree with vice chair

cheney? i sense you don't, that cipollone's testimony met expectations? you're saying it didn't go far enough in your view? >> i don't know how far it's gone. i don't know what their expectations were. so it's difficult to assess. i'm delighted the committee feels that they got what they needed. but their needs are somewhat limited. they are really focusing on one date and the events that precede it. i think cipollone has a lot more to offer. and needs to offer more so that we can get all this in a bigger context. >> to the extent your testimony vexed president nixon, does it at all surprise you that former president trump is reportedly fuming over cipollone testimony? >> not at all. not at all. nixon didn't watch my testimony. in fact, he couldn't even listen to his recorded conversations with me, had others do that, and they misreported to him what i had actually told him.

but that's another issue. i can understand why trump is upset. this is exactly the sort of thing that terrifies him because he's getting the worst side of his image out. he's unable to control what's being put out there. and it's not a pretty picture that's going out there. >> there were a lot of bizarre days and late nights in the white house during watergate. was there anything ever to compare with the oval office meeting that cipollone was in trying to head off sydney powell, the power chugger of dr. pepper and mike flynn's efforts to among other things have the president order the military to seize voting machines? >> anderson, i assure you there wasn't anything in the time i was at the white house or did i learn about anything after i left the white house. in fact, i'm something of a student of the presidency, and have been trying to think about a parallel, and i just can't

find it. this is a historic meeting for the unhinged. we just never had a meeting like that. it was sort of a movable feast with rudy stayed in the cabinet room, just because he liked the room. i mean, this was crazy stuff. >> what outstanding issues in your view do you want to hear cipollone address? look, he knows everything. he was there for everything. what do you want to hear from him? >> what i want to hear from him is, one, is why the committee has -- he's met their expectations, which would lay out an awful lot. two, i want to understand how, you know, why he would still insist there is a privilege. they're not telling us what the privileges are, whether it's executive privilege, whether it's attorney/client, whether it's some other privilege he's claiming but he is invoking privilege. there was a little clip of that today. so i would like to hear the

whole story, and i would like to hear it unfettered and uncensored if you will. >> john dean, real a appreciate it. >> back with our panel. joining us, oddy cornish and alyssa griffin who served as director of strategic communications in the former administration. what do you think came out of today? how big of a deal was it to hear vice chair liz cheney say the end hearing that somebody who was going to testify or has testified was contacted by the former president? >> i mean, obviously, the chairwoman cheney, she's been saying all along, hey, it seems like someone is reaching out to witnesses. hey, i think that there's going to be a problem here, and just so you know, we're paying attention to that. so there's been a lot of bread crumbs leading up to this allegation. and i'm looking forward to maybe you have more information as you're kind of tapped into trump world, as to like how far this has gone and how much the committee is digging. >> it's kind of, like, it's the

model of what trump world does, which it's intimidation. it's maybe a bit more masked than directly saying hey, i'm watching, don't say this. but it's what cassidy hutchinson referred to that she dealt with which kept her from getting different counsel and coming forward to the committee for months on end. we don't know how wide reaching this is. we don't know how many people who have come forward or haven't aren't because they have been intimidated by the former president. i hope it meets the threshold. i'm not the lawyer that it would actually count as witness tampering, but the committee has drawn a line that this is unacceptable. >> if the former president does call you, just record the call. put it on speaker phone at the very least. the committee highlighted this clip from katrina pierson who helped organize the january 6th rally. i want to play some of it to talk about concern about potential speakers. >> on december 30th, ms. pierson exchanged text messages with another rally organizers about

why people like mr. alexander and mr. jones were being suggested as speakers at the president's rally on january 6th. her explanation was, potus. and she remarks that the president likes the crazies. the committee asked ms. pierson about these messages and this is what she said. >> when you said he likes the crazies, were you talking about president trump? >> yes, i was talking about president trump. he loved people who viciously defended him in public. >> but consistent in terms of support by these people, at least with what the president likes from what you could tell? >> yes, the people that would be very, very vicious in publicly defending him. >> as someone who works in the trump white house, i wonder what you made of that notion that the former president likes the crazies. >> it's true, and it's a sad thing where learned very quickly about donald trump, which is so long as you will viciously defend him, regardless of the facts that you state, if they're true or not, regardless of, you

know, associations you may have, if you're tied to extremist groups, whatever it may be, so long as you're defending him, he will want your voice to be amplif amplified. this is something we would see in his twitter feed. the voices tied to qanon and other extremist groups. i do want to say this. a kind of theme throughout this hearing was that what the president privately says about some of his supporters is actually extremely demeaning, and i don't think they realize that. >> he doesn't like -- he makes fun of them. >> right, he makes fun of them. and that's something i hope gets through, and also the fact that he was told he lost. he was told there was no victory in sight or path to victory, and he kept going forward, and then let these people go storm the capitol. i hope if nothing else, that broke through to his supporters. >> he doesn't -- i mean, he is counting on ignorance. he's counting on people to believe because we have as a society believed that if the president of the united states is saying something, it has the

level of gravitas that must be believed. the idea of the witnesses today hanging on every one of his words with the expectation there are going to be honesty and truth and behind the scenes and in front of the cameras we know he was not telling the truth. he was capitalizing and hoping on that very notion. similarly, some witnesses who were testifying recently, i believe, are hoping that the american public does understand things like, i don't know, privilege. the idea that you can say because the president said it to you, it's privileged. not even your name, but in reality, privilege holds a very special place. it has to actually be within the confines of getting some sort of advice or counsel. it has to be privately communicated. it can't just be if president trump ordered an ice cream cone, the person can't tell you what flavor. that's not how it works. so pat cipollone as he's describing all of the things going on, some notions that he's saying are capitalizing yet again on the assumption that most people will think that because the president said it, forget it.

all bets are off to paraphrase. >> i know john dean is waiting for a cipollone moment to come, but i actually was taken today in watching his videotaped deposition about the weakness in cipollone. like, i don't mean as a person. i just mean, his inability as white house counsel to actually prevent this from happening. donald trump was tuning out, like you said, donald trump was told by the attorney general, told by the white house counsel, toldauthoritative legal voices in his administration, but it was discounted because it wasn't what he wanted to hear. watching cipollone today, i was like, wow, you just seem like a diminished force inside this west wing. >> if i could say really quick, i was in many meetings in the oval with cipollone. i always saw him give sound counsel to the president, but he was constantly diminished. the number of times i heard the president say i wish i had better lawyers and look directly at pat, it's countless. >> by the way, his definition of

a better lawyer is roy cohn. i want to continue the conversation shortly. next, an expert on right-wing extremism joins us to talk about what she took from today's testimony. >> also, in light of prior testimony, the former president asked the justice department to, quote, just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. we'll talk about the white house meeting with 11 republican congressmen, which was highlighted at today's hearing. among my patients, i often see them have teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. nsodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect

that really takes ca as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's somethin that i would recomme. if maga republicans get their way, abortion will be banned nationwide, with no exceptions. medicare and social security will end in five years, with no replacement. elections will be decided by politicians, with no regard for your vote. if maga republicans get back in power, your rights, benefits and freedoms will be in danger. democrats will protect your rights. and the only way to stop maga republicans is to vote for democrats. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad. why is roger happy? it's the little things carvana does. like giving him a real offer in two minutes and carvana's customer advocate caitlin picking up his car at promptly 10am. then paying him right there on the spot. we'll drive you happy at carvana.

when traders tell us how to make thinkorswim® even better, we listen. like jack. he wanted a streamlined version he could access anywhere, no download necessary. and kim. she wanted to execute a pre-set trade strategy in seconds. so we gave 'em thinkorswim® web. because platforms this innovative aren't just made for traders -they're made by them. thinkorswim® by td ameritrade liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. [ sfx: submarine rising out of water ] minions are bitin' today.

♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ minions: the rise of gru, only in theaters. a pool floatie is like whooping cough, it's not just for kids. whooping cough is highly contagious for people of any age. and it can cause violent uncontrollable coughing fits. ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination because it's not just for kids. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ "shake your thang" by salt n pepa [lazer beam and sizzling sounds] ♪

in the last hour, anderson spoke with one of the witnesses who testified today, jason van taten hove, a former spokesperson and self-described propagandist for the far right militia group, the oath keepers. during the hearing, he spoke about how the former president's actions and words emboldened the oath keepers and other extremist groups and tonight he says the oath keeper still pose a danger to this country. >> are they still a risk?

>> i think so. i think, so i was guilty myself of underestimating them. i broke away around 2016, 2017. and you know, i didn't think there was a certainly amount of ineptness that i saw, but at the same time, they did storm the capitol. there were explosives that were found there. i mean, i was guilty of underestimating them. and i think we're just at a point in time in history where we cannot do that anymore. >> i'm joined now by kathleen belew, an associate professor at northwestern university and author of "bring the war home, the white power movement and paramilitary america." thanks for joining us. last night, you told anderson watching the hearing today, you would be looking to see how connected these extremist groups were with not only members of the trump administration or the trump orbit but also with each other. did the hearing explain that to

you in a meaningful way at all? >> it did. they did an excellent job today, i think. there's one thing that i wish had been brought out more fully and maybe key could talk about that now. and that is that the white power movement for purposes of this committee hearing, they're interested in figuring out culpability for the former president and for other members of the administration. so they spent a lot of time on things like did he know about the election being lost, did he issue a call that was then used as a unification point and a call to arms for various extremist groups? it's very clear that both of those things are true based on the testimony we heard today. but the other part that we should be paying attention to is what the attack on the capitol meant to people in this movement. one of the comments that was read in testimony today to the tweet about it will be wild, that the former president wrote,

was a direct reference to a white power novel called "the turner diaries" which describes a sort of -- it's a handbook for how white separatists can take over the united states and then through a campaign of violence and genocide create an all-white planet. this is important because that book has in it an attack on the capitol very much like the one we saw on the 6th. and the point of that attack within that book and within the ideology of this movement is not a mass casualty event. it was not imagined as a mass casualty action. like the one they very successfully undertook in oklahoma city. it was imagined as a strike at the heart of power that was meant to recruit. and it was stunningly successful. so we shouldn't let the idea of ineptitude distract us from what was for the militant right a very successful recruitment action. >> i want to play part of the testimony from steven ayers, he was a supporter of donald trump. not affiliated with any of these

groups. he came to washington, d.c. and stormed the capitol on january 6th. let's play a little bit of that. >> when you arrived on the ellipse that morning, were you planning on going to the capitol? >> no, we didn't actually plan to go down there. you know, we went basically to see the stop the steal rally, and that was it. >> so why did you decide to march to the capitol? >> well, basically, you know, the president got everybody riled up, told everybody to head on down. so we basically just followed what he said. >> we know that you illegally entered the capitol that afternoon and then left the capitol area later on. what made you decide to leave? >> basically when president trump put his tweet out, we literally left right after that come out. you know, to me, if he would have done that earlier in the

day, 1:30, you know, we wouldn't be in this -- maybe we wouldn't be in this bad of a situation or something. >> so that's, you know, for want of a better term, a common man type individual that attended the rally. we also saw the committee showing the direct result of donald trump's tweet on the early morning of december 19th, 2020, saying come to d.c. on january 6th, will be wild, et cetera, and the direct effect it had on far right organizations and, again, for lack of a better term, charismatic type local or smaller level figures. this is all the same kind of result in the sense that donald trump says something, and you have masses of people following his every word. >> yes. but we want to be clear about who is involved in those masses of people. so january 6th, the crowd really

consists of three different groups. one is sort of like mr. ayers, people who were there to see the stop the steal action, perhaps to see trump, and who were swept up in the day. and the people in that group really range in intensity and in how far down the path towards illegal activity they went. then we have the qanon folks. that is a much different sort of mobilization. and it relies on conspiracy theory and some other major themes we could talk about if you wish. and then finally, we have what was really the focus of today's hearing, which is the organized white power movement and militant right. now, two things there. first of all, well, so this is the smallest and most highly organized part of the january 6th crowd. but they're the people that were there with tactical gear, weapons, explosives, and a plan about what they wanted to do. how they wished to breach the capitol. so the critical thing in today's hearing was that they got the

go-ahead order from trump. rather than sort of being brought along in a spontaneous fashion. but for those activists, they're there looking for an opportunity to reach folks in the stop the steal pool like mr. ayers and to bring them along. >> fascinating. kathleen belew, thank you so much. appreciate your expertise. >> today, the committee highlighted two meetings at the white house in december 2020 involving discussions of attempting to overturn the democratic election. there was that heated hours-long meeting that devolved into a shouting match between the former president's legal team and outside advisers, let's call them, and then the one three days later on december 21st involving 11 republicans. >> according to white house visitor logs obtained by the committee, members of congress present at the white house on december 21st included congressman brian babin, andy biggs, matt gaetz, louie

gohmert, paul gosar, andy harris, jody hice, jim jordan, and scott perry. then congresswoman elect marjorie taylor greene was also there. we heard testimony in an early hearing that a pardon was ultimately requested by congressman mo brooks and other members of congress who attended this meeting. >> i'm joined by cnn congressional correspondent ryan nobles. ryan, what more do we know about this meeting? >> it was a planning meeting, jake, and it came shortly after the former president, donald trump, was advised by members of the white house that there was really no path forward on january 6th. but despite that advice, he put it away and met with this group of members of congress to talk about how they were going to try to delay the certification of the election results on january 6th. and some of these members of congress were willing. they were trying to come up with ways to help that end game by the former president. others weren't so sure. congressman mo brooks, as was

pointed out in today's hearing, recommended this wasn't the best course of action for the president on january 6th. he did ultimately object. but what's most stark about this, jake, is that there was also testimony that was revealed by the committee in earlier hearings that at one point when donald trump was trying to pressure the justice department into looking into these false claims of election fraud, that he said to them, you take care of that, and i'll take care of the republican congressmen. he had in his mind kind of a two-fold plan to stand in the way of the certification of the election. it didn't work that way, but as late as december 21st, he was still trying to put that plan into motion. >> right, he wanted the justice department to announce this fraud, and then leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. we understand you're trying to track down some of those who attended. are they talking to you at all? are they shedding any light on what happened? >> no, they're not, jake, and that probably doesn't surprise you. we certainly didn't get to all of these members of congress today, but my colleague and i trying to find as many of them as possible.

the vast majority of them had no comment. the ones that did talk about it say they didn't remember all that much about what happened there. that includes jim jordan who we know had multiple phone calls with donald trump on january 6th that he can't seem to remember at all what happened in the phone calls. he told manu today that he met at the white house a bunch of times and he doesn't remember every specific meeting. matt gaetz who was also part of the meeting casually mentioned that vice president mike pence was there as well. of course, we knew pence was at the meeting. that doesn't necessarily mean at any point in time pence was in on this effort to stand in the way of the certification of the election, but offtimes when we try to press these republican members about exactly what role they played and what led up to january 6th, they often just seem to forget. >> ryan nobles, thank you so much. appreciate it. >> and back now with our panel. laura, i want to play part of what former white house counsel pat cipollone testified to today. and it illustrates just how much the former president was

considering going, how far he was going to overturn the results. >> there was a real question in my mind and a real concern, you know, particularly after the attorney general had reached a conclusion that there wasn't sufficient election fraud to change the outcome of the election. when other people kept suggesting that there was, the answer is, what is it? and at some point, you have to put up or shut up. that was my view. >> why was this on a broader scale a bad idea for the country? >> can the federal government seize voting machines? that's a terrible idea. that's not how we do things in the united states. there's no legal authority to do that. and there is a way to contest elections, you know, that happens all the time. but the idea that the federal

government could come in and seize election machines, i don't understand why we even have to tell you why that's a bad idea. it's a terrible idea. >> well, apparently somebody did need to be told it was a bad idea. what would have even happened, i mean, i'm not even sure if it would have even happened if there were enough human -- i guess there are always enough people to go and do something like this. what would have occurred? >> i feel like quoting him and saying why do i have to tell you what would have occurred had this happened? the notion here, the absurdity of having the federal government going in to seize what the states know are their time -- they're able to oversee the time and manner and place of elections. they're in control. the supreme court has taken up a case for next term to try to evaluate just how far individual states can confirm that you have to keep your hands off, even if it's a state court, let alone

the federal government doing so. it's based on nothing. remember, bill barr, you heard imearlier today say, there was no probable cause to do any of this. we have got laws, we have rules, we have the constitution. it's supposed to tell people there are parameters and guidelines and none of that was there. why he was so sort of perplexed about the idea and having a rhetorical question is because i think they went through this flow chart of this must be a joke, to this must be rhetorical, to i have to explain to then the escalation of the december 18th meeting with the dr. pepper moment of trying to drink down and force everyone else to gulp the absurdity of what's going on. it would have been vi violative the law. >> there was an anonymous quote saying what's the downside for humoring him for a little bit of time. it's not like he's plotting how to prevent joe biden from taking

power on january 20th. he's tweeting about filing some lawsuits and then he'll leave. i don't know sort of when that changed for the people around him. but it does feel like the president has been very consistent about how he talks about elections when he has lost and what he thinks should be done to challenge them. maybe you can help me. i keep turning to you. were people really that shocked that they were in a moment like we saw cipollone talking about? >> a couple things. so i left december 4th, and part of my rationale, i had a sense things were going to go a very dark route. but after the president didn't remain in mar-a-lago after thanksgiving, there was a sense in the white house if he's just going to kind of stay down there and never come back and accept the results. when he decided to stay in washington and not go down there for christmas, that was a sense to many of like no, no, no, he's going to fight this out. and one thing i noted when we were off set is we know about this 18th meeting. we know that sydney powell, michael flynn, who does not -- he refuses to say he believes in

a peaceful transition of power, were in the oval office and then the yellow oval in the residence. who waived them, which is putting them through security to get onto white house grounds. we don't even have that answer now. i suspect it was mark meadows, and i say that because i can tell you before i resigned, i said sir, i'm planning to move on. i want to put in my notice. and he said to me, what if i can tell you we're actually going to be staying? you can interpret that as hypothetical, but there were people around the president telling him that, and that's what led to this absolute insanity. >> when he said that to you -- >> i moved up my resignation to the next morning. and i said, no, of course we're not. i told all my staff we lost. >> and what about this ryan nobles reporting about the ten house republicans? >> i was looking at that list, and you'll recall, four of the members there actually received subpoenas from the january 6th committee. so it's not just ryan and manu trying to chase them down to figure out what was going on there. the committee has subpoenaed

four of their fellow members of congress, and as we know, they have been totally unwilling to talk. >> one of them was put up as a name to potentially be on this house committee as an investigator, which was jim jordan, that didn't come to pass. >> real quick, if i may say, while i appreciate pat cipollone came forward and i think there will be helpful testimony from him in the future, this sort of almost, oh, this was so ridiculous attitude, he has not been speaking publicly about this for the last year, while about 30% of the country if not more believes the election was stolen. so it would be very helpful to have him saying this more forcefully publicly. >> sure would. thank you all. >> the importance of this day beyond today. doug brinkley is here to look at the most unforgettable moments and evidence. what will they mean for the legacy of the already impeached former commander in chief.

bubbles bubbles so many bubbles! as an expedia member you earn points on your travels, and that's on top of your airline miles. so you can go and see... or taste or do absolutely nothing with all those bubbles. without ever wondering if you're getting the most out of your trip. because you are.

my tribe has lived on this land for 12,000 years. we call it oleyumi. you call it california. our land, our culture, our people once expansive, now whittled down to a small community. only one proposition supports california tribes like ours. while providing hundreds of millions in yearly funding to finally address homelessness in california. vote yes on 27. tax online sports betting and protect tribal sovereignty and help californians that are hurting the most.

i never thought i see that a sitting president. the sitting, the documentary evidence that is being pulled together right now, this is going to be the father of history. since the civil war, we have never had such an event where calmer's was being, basically, attacked. donald trump's fingerprints seem to be all over this. you know, you just -- your mind goes back to the whole roger stone thing and he has attacked two of nixon on him. they were angry that they got

nixon and watergate. now, he's going to say donald trump. pardon roger stone. more and more realizing that there is a right wing, white supremacist sub -- driven qanon infused group that really believe they could topple the u.s. government. >> and had access to presidential power. we know this now. looking at the next hearing, what more do you think history wants to know about the presidents actions or inactions on that day? >> you know, this is a crime scene, what happened at the u.s. capitol. we want to tiktok, you know, timeline of it. we also want to know every second in the white house what's donald trump did and said, what did cipollone? now there is no privilege for him. there is not executive privilege. he has said that he was the personal lawyer of donald trump. i think we just have to keep getting the puzzle pieces put

together. when george w. bush had to deal with the 9/11 attack, i once worked on a tiktok timeline. every second is accountable. we need to know every comment that trump made. it might be like pulling teeth to get it out of some republicans, but there are people that are patriotic. we saw cassidy hutchinson last week, liz cheney is doing extraordinary job of prosecuting this. i think, if i were trump, i would seriously be worried each time this becomes a televised event. we're still a divided country, but he is a deeper trouble every time the public really learns about what his agenda was, starting in december and leading into the january six. >> if the attorney general is weighing president of judging former president, one of the present cons he may be considering? >> that is a deep question right now. when gerald ford pardoned nixon, i kind of backed it. i was a young. at first, i don't like it.

then, i thought he did the right thing before he called his memoir time to heal. he'll be country by pardoning nixon. we can see the problem with for doing the part, and right? if you're donald trump, here, he likes to quote from next. and if the president does it, it isn't illegal. that is what nixon said. that is what trump believes. i'm afraid that this justice department has the honors task of indicting donald trump because we have to drive home that nobody is above the law, including the president of the united states. that is on the mental to our democracy as any principle. >> really. great to talk to, doug. and i have some thoughts about what we saw today. >> that's right. some difficult revelations today. with only one common theme, the need for government transparency and the reluctance of government officials to allow it, to those who are in our salaries. shocking testimony from former trump white house officials,

including white house counsel pat cipollone, who described to the house committee a screaming match between him and other white house members with trump super fans, michael flynn, rudy giuliani, sydney powell, patrick byrne, the former ceo of overstock dot com, who were allegedly in a meeting or discussing plans to undermine, our, democracy. and scheme to declare martial law to seize voting machines. >> can the federal government seize voting machines? it's a terrible idea. that is not how we do things in the united states. >> now, we know this, not because cipollone voluntarily, immediately told the american people. we only know it because of journalists and because, in this case of the testimony, democrats now controlled the house. democrats formed a bipartisan committee.

one republicans fought tooth and nail. that is oversight. we would not have had. that is knowledge of facts we would not have had and been denied had trump's party been in charge. today, we are finally getting some answers about what went so wrong seven weeks ago at the uvalde school shooting were 19 children and two teachers were killed. austin says [inaudible] it is disturbing. video showing police standing in the hall for more than an hour and 15 minutes during the massacre. the sound of gunshots going off and screaming by children. one even taking a moment to put on san -- hands sanitizer, god forbid he catch a cold. remember how police and officials originally described the police response seven weeks ago? >> the reason it was not worse

is because law enforcement officials did what they do. they showed amazing courage by running toward gunfire for the singular purpose of trying to save lives. >> that is not how i would describe what we just saw on that video. governor abbott has since taken back that statement. just remember, who told him this incredibly false version of the events that day? to local police officers and one state police officer. for our democracy to survive, we need transparency from our public officials. if we do not get it, we get lied to. people get away with misdeeds and crimes. the uvalde parents pay the salaries of those cops and politicians. all of us who pay federal

income tax, we pay the seller donald trump, passable pallone. we learned, again, today by the hearings in that video, we cannot rely on officials to tell us of the ugliness that is going on unless our system demands that the facts. people who work for you will sometimes lie to hide their crimes, to hide their failures. just remember that next time you hear someone in power, someone who salary you pay complaining about citizens, or journalists, who have questions that they would rather not answer. anderson? >> thanks for that. more tonight. stay with cnn for more coverage. the news continues with don lemon tonight.

>> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. in one easy appointment... ♪ pop rock music ♪ >> tech: ...we can replace your windshield and recalibrate your advanced safety system. >> dad: looks great. thanks. >> tech: stay safe with safelite. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ >> tech: need to get your windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy. >> tech vo: you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ the world is full of make or break moments. especially if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and a high risk for fracture, it's time to make your move to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones

from fracture with 1 shot every 6 months. do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it, or take xgeva®. serious allergic reactions like low blood pressure, trouble breathing, throat tightness, face, lip or tongue swelling, rash, itching or hives have happened. tell your doctor about dental problems, as severe jaw bone problems may happen or new or unusual pain in your hip, groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. speak to your doctor before stopping, skipping or delaying prolia®, as spine and other bone fractures have occurred. prolia® can cause serious side effects, like low blood calcium, serious infections, which could need hospitalization, skin problems, and severe bone, joint, or muscle pain. don't wait for a break. call your doctor now and ask how prolia® can help you. you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need? like how i customized this scarf? check out this backpack i made for marco. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪