>> hold your panel! [indiscernible] >> what am i seeing in that? is that still a shield there? >> it is a shield. you heard the shot. that appears to have grabbed their attention. you have about half a dozen or so officers go down the hall. they notably leave one of the shields behind. the shield is, we had heard again and again and again that one of the reasons for the delay was a request for ballistic shields and they were waiting for those to arrive. >> he's wearing a gas mask there, right, the border patrol? i don't understand the purpose of that. >> i saw a couple of them put gas masks on. they just weren't organized. they don't know what they want

to do. >> yeah. >> they go down the hall and leave one of the shields behind, which supposedly was what they were waiting on, was all this equipment. but they still weren't making entry. >> that's right. >> they just heard additional shots fired. they still are not making entry. >> remind you, there have been 37 minutes between the last time we heard gunshots to now. the idea if they thought it was a bierarricaded situation or no longer an active shooter that is triggered, right? >> and it will be another half an hour before they make entry. >> i just want to talk about one of the victims, because i spoke to one of the mothers of the kids who survived. she told me her son remembers someone hearing a police officer say, hey, are you inside, do you need help? the kid answers back, yeah, we're in here. then the gunman shoots and kills him.

>> that is happening now. it could have been in this moment. we just don't know. it's very hard to get that kind of specific information out of the children. but i think law enforcement has some idea, because actually it was fbi forensic type of -- >> ert. >> who deal with interviewing kids. >> sure. >> they sent them in to interview the kids to elicit specific information. that's what's going on. there are more people being shot. that's what we're led to believe when you talk to the kids and the parents, because the gunman kept walking around . the kids had to act as if they're dead, because if he saw they were alive, he was going to shoot them. >> we had the one young girl testify before congress that she smeared the blood of her classmate and friend to play dead. and the teacher who survived believing the entire classroom was dead. we have still to reach the breach of all those officers.

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our tape is still rolling. the minutes you missed, law enforcement failed to make entry and have been talking in these groups that we're seeing. let's keep watching together with our experts. this is minute 55. minute 55. now, the idea of trying to penetrate, the idea of going in and trying to at least go into that classroom, there was obviously going to be a risk to the officers' lives. there was already risk and lives likely either lost or dying people, children, two teachers at least in the classroom. what do you make of this calculus of not even going in to try to get a shot off?

>> there shouldn't have even been a calculus. every law enforcement officer knows when they are sworn in, they are accepting that risk that some day, god forbid, they might be in this situation or one very similar and they'll be called upon to put themselves in harm's way. watching this, i can't help but think back to ten days before this. we had the mass shooting at the tops grocery store in buffalo and you had a retired police officer working as a security guard in that store who, wildly outgunned, with no body armor, went to the sound of the gun, addressed that gunman, fired some shots and lost his life as a result but probably saved lives. >> what he was able to do and i was there and covered that story, sadly, he was able to slow the gunman down. that gave police time and probably save d a couple of lives. it slowed the gunman down. you stop the momentum. we've been hearing a lot about

momentum in these situations. so you slow the gunman down. the police have more time to get there and they can then neutralize the gunman. we didn't have that here. we had none of that here. >> wait a second. are we seeing someone get hand sanitizer? >> yeah. >> now, maybe it's nerves or something. >> there is no explanation. >> i can't believe that. >> for any of this right now. look how they're just standing around in the hall. it wasn't long before it was as if they were afraid to even go into the hall to expose themselves. now they're just standing around. it's something like at the end of a train where everybody is just kind of standing around chatting or whatever. there's no sense of urgency, there's no organization, there's 2 no planning going on as to how they're going to make entry to take this guy out. what are they doing?

>> i mean, when i think about sort of the first responder, we think about those who run towards danger while everyone else is running away. >> that's right. >> at the beginning we saw a child see a gunman in the hallway and run away. no one will begrudge a child for running away. i remember 9/11 as an example seeing firefighters and first responders running into a building that was collapsing. it was the idea of selflessness we expect of our first responders. the insult to injury, if you can add up the volumes of it, is the hand sanitizer in part, thinking about i wonder if i have germs on my hands. there are children calling 9/11 asking to come in because their teacher is alive. >> i've spent 47 years active service in policing. i've seen officers put themselves in harm's way over and over again. they've lost their lives putting themselves in harm's way.

my last 8 years in philadelphia i lost eight officers in eight years. five for swere shot to death. my entire adult life i've seen this. this is not representative of what policing with really all about. when you ask, you know, what about this, there is no excuse for this. this guy should have been dead a long time ago, all right? they should have gone in there and taken him out, period. you've got the equipment. you've got everything you need. the only thing that's missing is the courage to do what you got to do. >> you talk to law enforcement officials. this is what you hear. it makes them mad this happened. this is not representative of training, of what law enforcement is supposed to do. this will be one of the worst failures ever on the part of law enforcement. so bar none. one of the reasons this is so shocking and so infuriating is

because those of us from the law enforcement community, we've seen the overwhelming examples that we've seen and experienced are the exact opposite, of people running to the sound of the guns, running to danger, willing to sacrifice themselves. coming from that experience and watching this is absolutely -- >> let me ask this question. we're 1 hour, 2 minutes, 54 seconds in approximately. we're keeping this in realtime as if it was happening. they're saying that swat is on the way. they weren't on the scene immediately. you get the call as swat and you're supposed to respond to that. what are the things you expect to have already been done or attempted before you would call swat or is it contemporaneous with the 911 call? >> as soon as you get that call, you typically have most or all of your equipment with you 24 hours a day because you're always waiting for that call, but you may not be close by. the fact that it took them 45

minutes, an hour to get there, this is a very rural place. those folks could have been spread out all over who knows how far away. that's why police officers, first responders have been trained since columbine to not wait for swat. you should never have heard that radio call, wait for swat to arrive. no. you are here, you've got the long guns, the ballistic shields, there's 20 cops standing around in that hallway. go down the hallway and do your job. >> they've been trained since columbine to do that? that was '99. >> columbine the process was to contain the area and wait for swat. no, that's not what we do. training changed after columbine. >> a sea change in training. >> it wasn't always, i don't think, patrol officers riding around with long guns. i think because of the active shooter training, that changed. so they said, okay, especially with some of the smaller police departments, you need to start training your officers with

these long guns because of these situations. you know, your officer in this small police department may be the first officer on scene in a situation like this. that officer needs to be ready to grab whatever gear they have in the car, and they should have the gear. >> we know, shimon, the majority of fatalities happen in the first few seconds. >> we heard more than 100 shots fired in under two minutes. >> the halligan is a pry tool. i've used it hundreds of times working narcotics, ripping gates off doors and making forced entry. >> was the door locked? >> they didn't try the door, but it's logical to think that maybe you have to pry it open. now, i don't know if that door opened out. it probably did, which means you have to pry it using a hammer against a door. you're going against the strength of the door, so you'd have to pry it. >> can i just tell you

something? in the hours after this happened and i was on the ground, these are the questions i was asking dps, the department of public safety, texas dps which was running this investigation and were the ones doing all of the communications. i kept asking them, was the door locked? how do you know the door wasn't locked? what kind of door was it? why couldn't they get in the door? they kept saying, well, maybe this and that. when you look at the video, they had all the answers hours after this happened and they would not tell us the truth. >> and they wouldn't tell -- i mean, do the families know the truth? that's what's infuriating for all of us. we are sitting here analyzing, evaluating, thinking about all the reasons it's important to play this in its totality, not snippets and sound bites, but to have people walk through as it happened the shooting at robb elementary that claimed so many lives. it's not just those that have lost their lives, there are

survivors who have an unbelievable road ahead of them. the psychological impact of this violence is unreal. >> it's compounded, made worse by when they see this. the kids have to ask their mothers why didn't the police come and help us? we heard them, they were outside our doors. why didn't they help us? >> why? >> listen, you see ballistic shields, you see kevlar helmets, you see level three and level four body armor on these people. i mean, they got long guns. they've got everything they need. right now they're just standing around. how many of those people, the 21 that died, bled to death while, you know, they're standing around not getting in there? if they had gotten medical attention, would they still be alive? >> they're doing some sort of triage at some point. we're at an hour and four minutes, the last agonizing minutes before officers finally breach the classroom is coming up next. we'll be right back. metastat.

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we still haven't gotten to that final 77th minute in uvalde, but we are about to. during the commercial break, we know uvalde schools police chief

arredondo was attempting to negotiate with the shooter. finally, and i mean finally, we're going to watch this to its conclusion. one thing that's important is the how they're all standing around. they're almost getting caught flat footed. if he were to come out, what's going to happen? >> if he were to break out of that room, they'd all be dead. look the way they're just standing around in a very lackadaisical way. you still have an active shooter inside of a classroom that you know is armed and warmed with an assault weapon. >> it's a complete lack of discipline on the scene, a lack of organization. all that comes down from a fundamental failure of leadership. there is no leadership on the ground. there's no tactical leadership on this. >> we were just talking about this. >> the guy in the black shirt with the stethoscope. >> he appears to be an emt but somehow he is commanding these officers where to go, where to stand. really bizarre.

just this is so bizarre and so painful. i know we keep saying this, but this is painful, painful to watch, because we know the end result. you were on the ground and you were asking these questions immediately. they had this tape. they had the information. they knew what was going on. the emt is there presumably to prepare for those lives they could actually save. we know so many were lost even in route to the hospital. one thing i want to point out here is, we have been learning and hearing for more than a month now about one name, arredondo. we have said repeatedly on our air waves, who else would have been responsible, who else would have been a part of trying to create that tactical leadership? we have not gotten the names. we've heard about the notion of an abject failure. they've pointed to simply the arredondo team over everyone else. look at all these different uniforms. this is not one cohesive unit. when you look at this as law

enforcement, is it odd they would all be deferring to someone at the level of arredondo? where is that own agency leadership here? >> under incident command, which is the way they should be organized at this point in time, when these others agencies would actually be under the command of the person in charge in ics. that's why table top exercises are so important when you bring people together and work through scenarios. that's the whole point of this. yeah, you could bring in a variety of agencies but if you're structured under incident command, people know their role and know who's in charge of what. >> there was no incident command here. so i want to a hearing when i was a few weeks ago where they were talking about school safety. one of those leaders of this committee, a senior law enforcement official said there was no command, incident command inside, but there was no incident command outside either. so basically no one was in charge. it was a free for all.

>> yeah. a command post would have been established outside. >> of course. that incident commander, which in this case would be arredondo because he owns the turf. he is the school police chief, by default he would be the incident commander, but he has the ability to delegate tactical command and things like that to other people. once bortac arrives -- >> what's bortac. >> the border patrol swat team, heavily armed agents. it would be almost expected they would take over the tactical planning and execution. >> if you look here, there's a dps, department of public safety, texas dps, they're already there. you can see them right there in the hallway heavily armed. he's wearing a ballistic helmet. >> let's get back to the original sin, which is we never should have gotten to that point. those six officers should have

gone in that room, suffered whatever return fire they got and taken out that killer first five minutes in, we're done. >> very early on we saw one of the officers who had the vest on, he had a tie. you all commented on the idea of maybe he was a detective or something that was in the area. he seems to hold the back of his head as if he had taken fire, maybe been grazed in a way. he has another officer look at his head to see if he's injured. if the officer was injured, does the response change, because now one of their own has been hit? >> it shouldn't. he would not have to be the person to go back right away. they had sufficient resources there. he was not incapacitated. >> that's what i mean. had he been, would that have changed it for the other officers? >> you prepare for that. there's a way to pull them out. >> you pull that officer to safety, put them behind a position cover and resume the fight. the bottom line is you have to

address that threat. >> thinking about the idea of pulling him out and what we're seeing, look at this. i'm hearing a lot of talking. you guys were talking about the idea of it was almost like radio silent at first unless you heard the officer talking about his wife having been shot. this chatter in the hallway -- let's listen in. hold on. [indiscernible ] [indiscernible ]

>> everybody, heads up. >> huh? >> listen -- [indiscernible ]

[indiscernible] >> here he is. let's go. [indiscernible] [ gunshots ] [ indiscernible yelling ]

[ no audio ] >> so much to talk about. we have seen the full video, every moment that we have. you have now seen it as well. we're going to talk about every aspect of it. but i first want to get a reaction from those who have seen it here at the table. what is your reaction after now having seen the full, complete video as we have it? >> i don't know. it's very hard for me to watch. i've watched this video several times, and each time it honestly gets harder and harder. i wish that we would never see this again, but it's going to be an important tool for law

enforcement. hopefully this never ever happens again. one of the things that struck me at the end, there was an officer at the end there, the hall there to the right and how emotional he was. other officers had to restrain him. the other thing is i cannot even imagine when those doors open what those officers must have seen inside those classrooms. >> i agree. this is very difficult to watch. i mean, it's embarrassing to watch. we do have to take lessons from it, as hard as it is that these things can happen. my first reaction is a couple things. number one, arredondo and the acting chief of uvalde that were there should never lead another agency at all ever again. and those officers who stood around while these kids were just dying, either being shot to death or just bleeding to death, need to turn in their badges. because when the time comes to step up, that's part of the job.

you've got to step up. i know it's not easy. listen, i've been shot at. i've been in three shootings in my career. it is not a good feeling and there's nothing wrong with being afraid. it's what you do in that moment that makes the difference. they didn't step up. they let everybody down, including themselves. i don't know how they live with it. >> i agree with everything the commissioner said. what we just witnessed was the inevitable result that should have happened an hour and a half earlier. what i cannot get past is thinking about how many of those children and the teachers died during that hour and a half that they were standing in the hall doing nothing. we will never know, but it's almost guaranteed that an earlier action could have saved lives. >> yep. >> i just am struck as a mom. i remember when i first learned that i was pregnant and my father said, congratulations, you will have your heart live outside of your body for the

rest of your days. those are all of our children inside those classrooms. the mothers and fathers outside, they deserve better. we'll be right back. ver: love and liberty mutual customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. if anynyone objects to this marriage... (emu squawks) kevin, no! not today. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. . ♪ (heartbeats) introducing icy hot pro. ice works fast... to freeze your pain and your doubt. heat makes it last. so you'll never sit this one out. new icy hot pro with 2 max-strength pain relvers. big game today! everybody ready? alexa, ask buick to start my enclave. starting your buick enclave. i just love our new alexa. dad, it's a buick. i love that new alexa smell. it's a buick. we need snacks for the team. alexa, take us to the nearest grocery store. getting directions. alexa will get us there in no time. it's a buick. let's be real. don't make me turn this alexa around.

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for all the insight that this heartbreaking video of uvalde has given us about what has unfolded that tragic day,

we're left with more questions than answers. shimon, andy and chief ramsey are back with me. chief ramsey, i remember when you and i were covering the derek chauvin trial. one of the things you so poignantly said was the video of george floyd being killed would change the future of law enforcement and the way people are trained. >> right. >> you all have been in law enforcement and have had extraordinary careers. seeing what we've seen today, does this video become incorporated into the training of your officers going forward? >> i think it almost has to because i think it needs to be a reminder why it's so important to take action immediately and not hesitate, not wait for some supervisor to tell you what to do. there's a reason why the training is what it is. the training is good. they just didn't follow it. there is excellent training for active shooters being taught to law enforcement around the country. this is a perfect example of what not to do and why it's so important that those first few

minutes, when you arrive, that's when you have to step up and you have to do what you have to do. is it risky? absolutely it's risky. could some of those officers been seriously wounded or even killed? yeah. but they had more equipment and better protection than those kids and teachers in that classroom. >> they relinquished control essentially to the shooter in a way by delaying all this time. he was able to do what he wanted to do. you noted the idea of the power of the weapon. we heard those gunshots. for our viewers, many people are hearing the power and the frequency and the ability of those weapons to be able to fire off that many rounds in that amount of time. tell me about the power of this type of weapon. >> an ar-15 shoots a bullet that's .223 caliber rifle round. that projectile exits the gun at about 3,000 feet per second. to put that in perspective, that's about three times faster than the normal bullet a police

officer's pistol would shoot. traveling at that velocity, the damage that bullet can do to the human body, much less a fourth grader's body, is absolutely devastating. combine that with the fact that the ar-15 is a semiautomatic rifle, which means you can fire bullets as quickly as you can pull the trigger. there's no hesitation. there's no pulling a bolt back and manually loading the next round. that's why that weapon is so unbelievably so devastatingly dangerous in a mass shooting situation. >> we have to remind folks where this was happening. this is a small room. it's two classrooms kind of adjoined. there's no real place for these kids to defend themselves. you know, they're in this classroom trapped. the gunman is firing at them. >> he's walking around. >> this is graphic, but the kids are telling me that the parents of the kids that survived said they would see teeth.

they saw teeth on the ground from the gunshot, from the wounds. there was so much blood. you talk about the smoke, the thing that the kids all remember is the smoke and the sound, the sound of the gunfire. the one jayden who i interviewed said he was under the desk hiding with his hands over his ears because of the noise that was coming from the rifle and it was unbearable. it's so long to be trapped inside that room and the gunshots and the gunshots kept coming. >> think about this. we watched the entirety of a 77-minute reign of terror on human lives while we watched officers. the show began today, you know, as we were leading in from anderson talking about the ability to have numbers to call if you wanted help. we know the number of 911. they were on the scene. they weren't in route. they were there, ramsey.

they were actually there. >> do you know the kids -- you know, for me obviously i've spent a lot of time with the kids and the families. they showed more courage than these officers. one of the things the moms told me is that the kids that survived wish they could have helped their friends who died and they cannot get over it. they tell their moms all the time, if only, we wanted to help them. it's all of them. the kids who survived have to live with that, knowing they wanted to help their friends. the police are outside, police weren't helping, but we wanted to help. >> i want to end it this way too. this is not representative of policing in the united states. it just isn't. there's no excuse for what they did. but i have seen too many officers put themselves in harm's way with not even thinking about it. to look at this and then have people get the impression this is now policing and this is how police are going to respond to active shooters or any other

dangerous situation, it's just not true. >> andrew mccabe, charles ramsey, shimon prokupecz we'll be back. thank you so much. for all that you and i have seen tonight, some have seen even more. the state senator who represents uvalde is among the many still demanding answers and is going to join me next.

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the texas house committee investigating the uvalde school massacre plans to officially release the full 77-minute surveillance video that we showed you tonight on sunday along with a report to victims' families. as the community continues to grieve, it's also trying to figure out how to keep another tragedy like this from happening ever again. i want to bring in texas state senator roland gutierrez, whose district includes uvalde. i'm very glad you're here. i have to ask you, you and i have had a conversation in the past following what you have been doing, demanding the answers. this video, unbelievable to watch. you were a proponent of making sure people saw it in full, because you understood the need for people to fully understand just what happened here. what is your reaction to this video, these moments, 77 of them?

>> well, like everybody that's seen this, it's just absolutely shocking and disgusting what we saw. however, there is still a lot that we haven't seen. this house committee interviewed 20 law enforcement witnesses, 17 civilian witnesses. that's it. there was 360 cops on the scene, 91 from the department of public safety, 12 of them were in that hallway, 12 dps troopers. yet they're not on that video. you have 19 other body cams in that room and yet we only get to see one. we didn't get to see the body cam that was right outside of that room where he sheltered himself in with the kids, when he shot back at the first seven officers. i saw this after the first week when i got in an argument with a p.i.o. officer at dps. i went into their trailer, spoke to him, shut the door behind me and in front of me was nine

texas rangers viewing this video until i was discovered and asked to leave. >> a week after, you saw this? >> after i saw this. i saw a body cam camera and you see sheet rock flying through at the officers as they are huddling to try to take cover. that is a very extreme power of this type of weaponry. make no mistake, as strong and as powerful as that weaponry is, these officers failed in their mission. they failed in their training on what they're supposed to do in an active shooter situation. >> we were watching and thinking about all the different uniforms we saw, all the different agencies represented. you mentioned more than 300 officers collectively on the scene. we saw just a select few of them. i want to play for you what colonel mcgraw had to say. he is a colonel with the texas department of public safety and they report directly to the

governor. he was speaking to the legislature and describing what he called, well, the response an abject failure. here he is. >> there's compelling evidence that the law enforcement response to the attack at robb elementary was an abject failure. three minutes after the subject entered the west building, there was an sufficient number of armed officers wearing body armor to isolate, distract and neutralize the subject. >> now, we're hearing a lot about the name chief arredondo. his comment about abject failure seemed to be focused quite specifically on a certain agency, not the overall number of agencies there. who do you think we need to get answers from, and why are we only hearing about one person? it seems to me the 300 officers or so on the scene have a lot of explaining to do. >> steve mcgraw needs to look in the mirror when he talks about

abject failure. there was eight different law enforcement agencies walking around, milling around waiting what to do. not one radio worked inside that bil building. they were all in their phones. i'm not talking about the gentleman who was texting his wife, who she unfortunately suc succumbed. the phones weren't working because they were inoperable in there. there was one officer, if you look at the back of his vest, he was being followed around by the body cam officer. boa both of those were state employees. one officer, on the back of his vest it said texas ranger. that texas ranger spent most of his time walking around that building, around that hallway talking to someone. someone was telling him what to do. who was that person? i filed a lawsuit on august 4th we'll be in court to get the rest of the material we've asked for so we can get to the bottom of what happened here. because i fear what's happened in this 77-minute video has just

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we definitely have ants in here. not for long. [irish music plays]

nice. what's going on here? i said get a pro. i did get a pro. ...an orkin pro. i got you. got ants? don't call any pro, call the orkin pro. orkin. the best in pests. i want to close tonight repeating our call for uvalde officials to give us a full and accurate account of what happened at robb elementary. he was there. he's been there for two months. i mean, you have been the eyes and ears on the ground. you have been asking the questions. you have been persistent as always about trying to get the information. big question people have now of course, our thoughts are on these families. this coming sunday was supposed to be the first day they would see this video. it was released earlier this week. what was the family's reaction

to having it already played? what's going to happen this sunday now? >> they're really upset. this sunday, they're going to have the legislatures doing this investigation come in and take questions. i don't know how many family members are going to show up. they're upset with what's transpired this week. one of the kids that was in the classroom, little jaden that i spoke to, his bravery and words of wisdom and talking about what happened kind of sums up the way people there are kind of feeling. listen to how he talks about that day. >> me and my friend were scared, and we didn't want to talk or nothing. and we covered our ears so we won't hear the gunshots. >> you covered your ears? were you hearing a lot of gunshots? >> uh-huh. me and my friend didn't have a lot of space, so we just tried

not to move so he won't see us. >> and were you wondering what was going on, why you had to be there for so long? >> yes. >> do you feel comfortable talk about what happened can, and is it helping you? yeah? >> i feel a little bit happy because my friend and my cousin are in a better place. >> in a better place? where? >> in heaven. >> and this is a deeply religious community. and faith has really been helping them. and you talk about answers, i think they're going to get them. i really do. i think the mayor in uvalde has taken a lot of heat, but i do believe he has turned on all of this and he really wants to fight and get information out. but he's been hand cuffed by the district attorney there, and he's afraid about releasing information. i think in the end, i have faith, and i know it that the truth will come out, and we'll

get everything we've asked for because we're going to continue to fight, and the families are going to continue to fight if we're going to get the truth in all of this. >> we have to. there's no alternative. the idea of this happening again. i'm thinking about the parents. what we heard for 77 minutes, these are people's children who are waiting. thank you for all that you have done, and thank you all for watching. i know it's been difficult. i'll be here monday night. the cnn's special report, saudi arabia, king of secrets, is next.

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