as you say, independents, moderate republicans, they don't like the extremism. they believe, like i do, that women -- can make their own decision about the reproductive health care, not politicians, not ted cruz, not the republicans and the senate judiciary committee. they do not want them in their house. they want to make their own decisions. >> senator, let me ask you, >> go ahead on. >> could they just believe as well, that there should be some restrictions on abortion, but there shouldn't be an outright abortion? >> i think what was on the table for them, i don't know what they would think about restrictions or these things. i think what was on the table for them are they going to allow any kind of choice in reproductive health care, and when i look at what they were seeing, the extremism, i'm sure many of those voters heard about the ten year old in ohio

that had -- couldn't even get an abortion after being raped. and then went to indiana, brought to indiana, and got her health care there, and then the doctor that performed the procedure got in trouble, or at least didn't really get in trouble, didn't do one thing wrong, but the attorney general starts looking into her. when you hear stories like that, voters here it, regular people hear it. and i think that's what was resonating with them. they want to be able to make their own decisions on reproductive health care. and i don't think we can put in their minds what they thought of restrictions or not, i just think that the views that we're seeing is what they voted on, right? we've got people, including senator mcconnell, who said that they want to put a ban into law, of an outright ban. we have governors in states like texas who have talked about putting even more restrictions, states like missouri, where someone proposed criminalizing it, people have proposed suing

people when they cross lines or not allowing them to get their own health care and other states. all these things are reality for people, they're hearing about it. i can't tell you where they draw the line, i just know that they don't want to lose their rights. >> so, senator, -- filibuster stand in the way of. but is kansas shows the hunger for these protections, it's really out there. all these people who want, that -- they're not in with what most americans want, and that includes republicans. >> that's for sure. a lot of people talking about it today, let me tell you that. >> talk to me about that, tell me about that. one of the same? >> i just think that republicans saw it as a wake up call. i don't see that changing much to their position that they

firmly held for a long time. but as you point out, really, all we need is two more senators, i'd like three or four, and we have such great possibilities fetterman in pennsylvania, they'll barns in wisconsin to judge beasley in north carolina, demings in florida. pick up seats in addition to making sure we reelect our incredible incumbents are doing so well, and are such a big contrast to their opponents. with maggie hanson in new hampshire, reverend warnock and you've got mark kelly. and you have catherine cortez masto in nevada. that's what each state is going to look at. kansas looked at it that way, imagine with these other states are going to see, because they're gonna have someone with really extreme views in nearly every one of those races on the other side. so, that's what i think is going to matter, and i'm telling you right now, don, kansas was a wake up call and

that's what we were talking about today. and i heard it from a few republicans as well, they don't have the 60 votes. so we need the votes to reverse the filibuster so we can actually codify roe v. wade. >> sounds like what you're saying is there some optimism, more optimism among democrats after what kansas did last night? >> we've been saying it forever, 70 80% of the american people actually want to see reproductive freedom, every poll shows it. and i think the question was, when women and emmett didn't support them, are they actually gonna show up at the polls? and they showed up at the weirdest election in the middle of august and a primary time that tried to bury this as much as possible. and they showed up and voted. -- >> when it comes to november, if this is going to motivate democrats, and even some republicans come november, that's with the optimism is about? >> yeah, it's about the turnout in the new voters and the people you saw coming out, sure,

that's optimism. but remember, they're also seeing it at the same time, even though if this was a vote specifically on abortion. what they're seeing at the same time is we're actually getting stuff done. the chips bill we're gonna be making semiconductor chips in america again. not dependent on foreign countries for key component for our cars on our phones, burn pits, democrats stood by our veterans. we just today voted to get finland and sweden into nato. only two people objected to that. we were able to move forward on gun safety bill took on the nra, by shipping bill finally passed to take on the international conglomerates, it's one thing after another, don, and look we are going to be seeing in the coming weeks. for the first time lifting that ban that was put into law that says that a pharmaceuticals on washington will finally medicare is going to be able to negotiate less expensive drugs for seniors, climate, moving on that, and i predict by this

time next week if i go on your show this major bill will bring down inflation is going to have passed with -- dollars in deficit reduction. >> i'm gonna hold you to the. >> okay don, i'm ready to go. we've got a day. >> you just mentioned these legislative victories, right, the biden ministration, the growing number of democrats aren't sold on -- in 2024. i'm sure you've seen clips of democrats. would you support him for a second term? >> yes. i made that very clear. and i think you can see the kind of leadership he's been showing. over these past few months. >> thank you, senator, and again, maybe i'll see you next week? >> okay, i will, what do you mean, we have a day? i can't wait. >> >> okay, but. >> now, i want to bring in john meacham, he is the author of

and there was light, hey john, good to see you. >> how are you, you're making dates on the air? >> [laughs] this is my dating vehicle. there is one person who may not be happy about the. the future of our democracy is on the ballot on tuesday, when so many election deniers winning republican nominations, it's going to be on the ballot with final consequences come november. how could the results of this midterm echo in the coming years you think? >> it's essential. it's without a doubt the most consequential period we're living through the most consequential period in testing the durability of the constitutional conversation that the foundational document as imperfect as it is, that has shaped the life of the country for almost 250 years. and i don't think that's hyperbolic. i think that's when you look at the data points including these

primaries as you say with the election deniers, you see that there is an organized and pernicious effort afoot in the country to put the will to power over the common good. the pursuit of the common good. and that may sound -- it may sound overly sentimental somehow, but it's not. every once in a while you just have to call something what it is. and we're living through an enormous test of citizenship. are we up to democracy? because it's not an easy thing to do. if it were easy, everybody would've been doing it. we are a remarkable exception to the rule that republicans don't it door. that's not a permanent thing and that's what's on the ballot. >> i love having you on, because it's reaffirming for me. over the past seven years or so, watching, sitting here being at the forefront the vanguard of

what's happening, and bring it to the american people in the world international news organization, as someone whose job is mentioned in the very first amendment of the constitution, to hold the powerful accountable into question question question, it is important to realize the moment that we're in. and if i miss it, and if we miss it as journalists, right, freedom of the press, then that is a ripple effect that's a domino effect for people around the country and around the world. so we can't miss this moment, because it's so important to democracy, not only in america but in the world over, as they look to us as an example. >> they do. and we forget that sometimes. american democracy is not pure democracy, where a democratic republic, we had battles between hamilton madison and madison in jefferson. we have been arguing over the nature of the republic for

ever. my friend howard fineman wrote a book about it. we are founded on argument. and that is really complicated, because to get quasi-heavy for a second, what the constitution demands is that we are willing to lose from time to time. we don't undermine or question the legitimacy of our defeat. that's the end -- i wouldn't flip this on you, but this is what the federalist papers are about. this is an enormous amount of philosophy that shaped the founding, that shaped our veteran reformed movements is about. it's that we are driven as human beings by appetite and ambition, were fallen frail in foul, most of what we want to do is bad. if we're being honest. and if you and i can do the right thing 51% of the time,

that's a heck of a good day. and in a democracy is the fullest manifestation of all of us. so if the country gets things right, just over half the time, that's about what we can expect. i wish it were better. i understand that. our friends on the left you think i'm too sentimental about this but human experience, again and again, tells us that the founders insight and having contending factions and making drastic actions difficult is probably not a bad bet. and the entire enterprise i believe this is strongly democratic enterprise, the entire american enterprise depends on seeing each other not as reflexive adversaries but as neighbors. neighbors with competing interest, neighbors with whom we may disagree 99% of the time. but human experience again tells us, if you respect

somebody else's victory, they're more likely to respect your's. -- >> okay, let's talk about the big lie. i'm glad you said that. because arizona is the latest state where trump backed election denier could become could become secretary of state. and that is important stuff. what happens when the big lie supporters can tip the levers of the next presidential election? >> then the constitution is shredded. arguably, beyond recovery. because once you break something like the united states, i don't think you put it back together, certainly not. i say that purposefully i'm not popping off here, i believe that. if we have the mechanics of power or willing to act, the people who manage power, manage elections are willing to enable

and manifest falsehood and taken election away from what the will of the people demonstrated, then the threshold question about a democratic republic falls away. because what the framers would've said is we were a popular government. that ultimately, for all the checks and balances, it was rooted in the people. if you have state level county level, even precinct level, people who are willing to perpetuate a fraud on the democratic lower case d experiment, then the threshold requirement of democracy breaks down. and then the question is, what replaces it? right? and then just, i would say to our friends in the business world, this isn't just some political guys talking like two old guys on the balcony. if you break the constitution,

what makes you think that other contract will be honored? look at this is a global story, if you lose something like this, then there is a, to use the phrase domino effect, there is a pernicious complicating set of factors that makes democratic capitalism vulnerable to attack from the political side. and will replaces democratic capitalism, around the world, it's kleptocracy, it's oligarchy, do you wanna pay off the party in power so you can do business somewhere? i don't think so. so, this is super -- joe biden is my friend, i help when i can, so take us for what it's worth, but that's why president biden's and his administration's success in delivering results on a constitutional way is so vital. it's because, at this moment, you mentioned journalists, i think one thing that drives me a little crazy is sometimes

people who do you and i do, almost act as though this is 1986 and bob dole and george michel are going on capital gang to argue about something. this is not that. >> we're not there anymore. >> this is different. and we have to rise to the level of events. >> i'm glad you mentioned that, because people are watching our business guys saying, those two old guys sitting there talking about this, the interesting thing for me is considering my background, my ancestry, is that this is, how do i say this? now that there is more import, maybe there is, considering the history of this country and what a thriving and robust democracy means to people like me, even to women. and if we lose that because of business people who are --

then we've lost the plot, and so, even some of the people who talk about advocacy, well, there's no room for advocacy and journalism, that's not necessarily true i'm not an advocate of journalists. that's not true. advocate is not a bad word, because of advocates, because of journalists who are advocates as well, i have the right to vote. i have the right to sit here. i have the right to be able to sit on the front of the bus, on an airplane, or to do a lot of things. those things are necessarily bad. so again, we have to realize the moment that we're in, because if we lose this then we lose everything. and that is critical for marginalized people, that's critical for black people, that's critical for immigrants, it's critical for women. it's critical for people who are not christians in this country. who some christians may want to ostracize because they don't believe in their religion. the reason that we left anglers because of what, --

the people we believe this is a christian nature nation, it's not just a christian nation, this is a nation of muslims, a nation of atheists, a nation of christians, a nation of catholics, a nation of baptist's, a nation of everyone. a nation for everybody. but it shouldn't be a nation of election deniers and liars. and people who try to capitalize on that opportunists and grifters. who have the preeminent voice in this country. that's not america. and i don't think we should allow our country to go down that road. >> i don't either, and let me just join the cause here. i'm a boring lee heterosexual white southern male. right? i am a christian, not a very good one, i'm a southern white man. and i believe with you that i will also suffer if we lose the

constitutional plot. because i think what's important here, as as the cases made, do you want to continue the constitutional conversation? as imperfect as it is. or do you want to just win at any cost, including breaking the rule of law? because that's the question. that's the question after presidential election in 2020. if that happens, it's not just the marginalized. the previously historically marginalized to lose. i lose. my kids lose. because the entire construct of a government devoted to an idea, that we're all created equal with inalienable rights, collapses. and our standing as equal beings, as figures of dignity, with the capacity to determine our own destiny, that status is

eliminated. and you become an inherent to a partisan authoritarian corpse. and it's not doesn't matter that you were born, which is the birthright and the idea behind the american experiment, that once born, ideally, you are entitled to the same respect and dignity as anyone else. it's not at that anymore. it's how do you stand at the current regime. that's a very different pernicious thing, and if anybody doubts what we're saying, go check out the history of europe over the last 400 500 years. and see where you would like to be. >> jon meacham, always a pleasure, thank you sir. and you're not boring, by the way. >> [laughs] >> those are the things, maybe, but you're not boring. >> let's not pull on that, okay? >> thank you, john, i appreciate. it will be right back everyone.

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sources telling cnn that the secret service made just disable texting on employees to sell phones while they fix how messages are retained. that in the wake of the firestorm over missing messages relevant to january 6th and the investigation surrounding. it's joining me now political analyst alex burns, co-author of the book this will not pass and our chief legal analyst mr. jeffrey tomb. and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. alex, i'm going to start with. you give me your reaction to this move from the secret service. it's not just them, we know of missing texts from the department of homeland security and the pentagon as well.

>> i think it certainly shows the degree to mitch whatever effort there may or may not have been to conceal information or withhold information or create gaps in information, the greek which that is now a spiral beyond any particular person or agency's control. this is an investigation that has turned up important gaps in the record of informations available to congress and other investigators. and the different administrative agencies that oversee these information systems are now trying somewhat desperately to catch up with the facts as they are unfolding. we don't know what information might still be able to be recovered. we don't know exactly why the information wasn't accessible to begin with, but it does seem like now the executive branch of government is acting with some sense of urgency to get answers. >> catch up. alex used a great phrase there. how about catching up with the

21st century? the secret service can't text? like they're gonna take away texting from all secret service agents? what if they need to text to protect the president? this agency, how can they operate? the good news for them would be, we are just totally incompetent and can't keep track of our data. the bad news is, we buried the stuff because we didn't want the january 6th committee to get it. either way -- >> could be both. >> either way it doesn't fill you with a lot of confidence. >> i can't believe that an agency as important as the secret service can't keep their text messages in check. it's not just homeland security it's also homeland security and pentagon as well. if it walks like a dark -- >> the one thing that seems clear is that this investigation should not be done by the department of

homeland security or the secret service-y cervantes. it should be done by an agency that is outside their control. >> there's another big development here, because the former trump white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy patrick philbin have been subpoenaed by a grand journey jury. they have already testified. the question is, how could the questioning be different? it can be different because this is more, the january 6th committee is political. that's political. jeffrey, this is legal. this would be more of a legal investigation. >> right. but there are legal obstacles. there are issues of executive privilege that could be raised. there are issues of attorney-client that could be raised. even though they were both government lawyers, the courts have held that in certain circumstances, with certain kinds of communication, the attorney client privilege is invoked.

so almost certainly this will be going to court. remember who we are talking about. this is an investigation of donald trump, someone who doesn't text, doesn't email. so the only way we are going to know what donald trump was doing and thinking is through witnesses. cipollone, as we know from cassidy hutchinson testimony, was involved in this, was trying to keep things under control. >> isn't a grand jury testimony, isn't that more important in front of the january six committee? >> the court, sometimes, yes, give more deference to a grand jury investigation than a congressional investigation. but maybe it's still not 100 and clear. >> your colleagues at the new york times, maggie haberman, is reporting that john eastman sent an email to rudy giuliani two weeks after jury six saying they should sue georgia to keep searching for fraud well acknowledging that they won't find any fraud. so he knew the truth.

then he kept pushing anyway. >> right. this is so much of the picture that has gotten filled in over the last few weeks and months as more of that correspondence, and more of this testimony, as come into public view. it is the sense that even the people who are pushing the most far out and aggressively, i'll just say, euphemistically aggressively creative theories of how to push the case of election fraud, they knew they didn't have the goods. we heard from people in the presidents inner circle who said he was told repeatedly that the information, the facts were not day there. we know that rudy giuliani was pursuing theories that he had not found support for. and now we have john eastman after the insurrection at the capitol saying they should file lawsuits around a different election. senate runoffs on or arizona

august 5th if they found evidence of fraud there, then surely that would imply a greater possibility of fraud in the november election. this is really farfetched. by the way, another piece of reporting by maggie in the times, john eastman wasn't actually doing this pro pro bono. >> he wanted money. >> he was asking for help collecting those fees. >> he wanted, the amount was, he wanted help collecting 270,000 dollar invoice that he sent to the trump campaign for his legal services. >> could this be a more perfect donald trump story? stiffing contractors is something that goes back decades. john eastman may get himself indicted, but donald trump is still not gonna pay his legal fees. >> thank you alex. thank you jeffrey. he's making deals on environment, gun, safety but his approval rating is still

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so, it has been the summer of winds for president biden and the democrats with a deal on climate and health care passing the chips act. gun legislation in a bill meant to help veterans affected by burn pits. three of those passing just this week. the president also announcing the u.s. killed al-qaeda leader ayman al-zawahiri and on top of that, gas prices have now fallen from the record high $5 a gallon to for 50 straight days in a row. i want to bring in now washington post columnist, max boot, and cnn commentator

bakari sellers. good evening to you. bakari, that's a big smile on your face. what's up with the? >> it's pretty no, listen, i've been someone who's come on the show many times in his people know, i like to push and hold by elected officials accountable, especially when he brought in work to bring them elected. but in a 50/50 senate, many of the accomplishments you name, from chips to pack to the transportation piece of legislation, when you talk about this inflation reduction act bipartisan in fashion, when you look at these things and you look at this successes that joe biden has had over the past 7 to 10 days, you are now starting to see that somebody who is joe biden's age who believed he could achieve these bipartisan goals may have actually been on to something. >> yeah. he's got a lot of criticism from people saying he's operating at a time that is no longer. yours truly said the same

thing. but he's proven a lot of folks wrong. there's a lot of crow to eat. over the last couple of days. including myself. i can admit that. max, i haven't seen bakari smile this much on air i think since 2014. [laughs] it has been a few good days for president biden, and his administration. a lot of voters, a lot they can talk about, you think this could be a turning point for the presidents party? >> it's really hard to say, don, i think it's hard to have any kind of turning point as long as inflation remains at around 9%, as long as people are worried about a recession, i think that's going to be the dominant force driving our politics, although there certainly others, including the backlash over the supreme court opening the way to ban abortion. but, i think fundamentally it's the fight inflation rate which is artificially depressing

biden's popularity. even though it's hard to say that it's really mainly his fault or even partially his fault given the fact that inflation in europe is almost identical to what it is here. 8.9% versus 9.1%, you're gonna blame biden for inflation in france? that's ridiculous. this is a global phenomenon increasing energy prices and other factors going on. but biden, like any pro the other president, is at the mercy of the economy. but would i really do argue in my washington post or column although biden looks very unpopular right now, things could look very different by 2024, if by that point inflation is down and we move through these recession fears that the economy is strong. biden will look a lot stronger, and people will focus on his record of legislative achievement. >> bakari, i've said a couple seconds here, as you know what should democrats be doing right now to make sure voters are paying attention to what

they've done? >> i mean, you've got to go out and spread the good news, you gotta spread the joy. you have to remind people that gas prices are dropping, you have to remind people that foreign policy when you're talking about killing an individual who actually laid the plans for 9/11, you have to tell that story. when you talk about transportation, supply chain, you have to tell the story. one of the things that democrats don't do is communicate our own message will. and joe biden has been giving us a message to communicate. now it's our job, -- randall wolf, it used to showcase lid a, use these mayors of these amazing cities who are doing the work, these young elected officials, and go out and spread the good news. because max is right. if you allow republicans to define you, you lose every single day of the week. and shadow to kansas. >> thank you, gentlemen. >> i had a lot to get off my chest today i'm smiling. >> look at that smile, wow. >> i'll have what he's having. >> and i got a haircut, don. i feel handsome and there's a

lot to talk about. >> all right. it was all good to the handsome part. thank you very much. i appreciate it. he is spending taxpayer money to bolster the big lie, cnn looks into the county sheriff who not only refuses to accept the outcome of the election, but is taking it into his own hands to investigate. that's next. that's next. bubbles so many bubbbbles! as an expedia member you eaearn points on your travels, and that's on top of your airline miles. so you can go and see... or taste or do absolutely nothing with all those bubbles. without ever wondering if you're getting the most out of your trip. because you are.

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reporting on the candidates and elected officials nationwide who denied reelection results, but there is another group of people who continue to push election lies. they are members of line for cement, including sworn officers. some of them acting on their own or conducting their own investigations, despite knowing credit no credible evidence of regular fraud. sara sidner reports. >> outside of kansas sydney, in the states largest county, the chief law enforcement officer has joined ranks with people who refused to let the 2020 election lie die. >> how many of you voted in the 2020 election? put your hands down. now how many of you think your vote counted? see. this is exactly why i'm doing what i'm doing. >> that sheriff calvin hayden of johnson county kansas, and a conference in las vegas, still questioning the validity of the 2020 election results, even

though donald trump won his state by 15 points. rip >> repeat after me -- >> the nearly two year old certified vote were joe biden beat donald trump by 74 electoral votes in more than 7 million popular votes. >> there's a lot of stuff going around about what happened in this election. quite frankly i don't know, but i'm looking. and what we are looking at we are looking at a whole lot of reasonable suspicion and we're starting to fill up some probable cause. >> he says he has assigned a sheriff deputies to investigate 2020 fraud. >> it's a long, drawn out investigation. frankly, they've got a lot more to do. >> it's frustrating. >> that's the top election official in kansas during the 2020 election. secretary of state scott schwab, a republican. >> did you find any major voter fraud? >> not in our state. we do postelection audits. before the board of canvassers

me to make sure they have the proper data. >> have there been any people who have filed reports of voter fraud with the secretary of states office? >> yes, we've had about 12, but they were so nebulous. >> you had 12. about a dozen. complaints concerning potential voter fraud in the entire state, to your office? >> to our office. >> we tried multiple times to talk to share of hayden to ask him to explain why he is spending taxpayer dollars looking into an election that has already been audited and certified. he declined. his spokesperson offered this. >> we are still investigating that. it's an in open investigation, and we're not gonna make any more comments on. it >> it turns out, sheridan is one of several elected sheriff's who say they are looking into mass fraud in the 2020 presidential election, something that has been widely debunked by secretaries of state across the country and dozens of courts. but their ideas are applauded,

even encouraged, by an organization they are all members of. the organization is the constitutional sheriffs and peace officers association, run by a former arizona sheriff, richard mack. >> our biggest concern now at the csu a's election fraud. >> that was richard mack at the conference he puts on in vegas. he has formed a whole dues paying organization around the idea of constitutional sheriffs who he says should not enforce laws they deem unconstitutional, even if passed by legislatures. do you think that the 2020 election was fraudulent? >> no one knows that. and people came out like william barr and said, well, there could have been some fraud, but it would not have changed the election. he's a liar. he is a liar. >> secretary of states from across this country have said,

we do know that, there was not enough fraud to change anything. >> they're lying. >> hold on. >> his view on the attack on the capitol? >> anybody who went and broke into capitol the deserves to be arrested. but the way the fbi has been going after people and people are still sitting in prison without charges and trials, what they have done, oh my gosh, it proves that the fbi will do anything they are told. they are a bunch of nuremberg officers. >> you just compared the federal bureau of investigation officers -- >> yes. -- >> the rank and file >> yes. >> to nazis. >> they just do what they are told. >> it is real disturbing to hear some of that was a law enforcement compare the fbi to the slaughter, people who slaughtered 6 million jews and many other people. do you see how that could create a really bad taste in peoples mouths? to hear a sheriff say that?

>> no. you're taking that way too far. >> nuremberg? i mean -- you made the comparison, not me. >> fair enough. but i tell you what, because the nuremberg trial brought up one particular point, and it is, you can't hold me responsible because i was just following orders. >> he says constitutional sheriffs won't and therefore season essential role for them in the electoral process. >> i will tell you one thing, there is overwhelming evidence that cannot be dismissed, and all we are asking for is for sheriffs to conduct honest and fair investigations to determine if there is fraud. >> by the way, mac was a sheriff in the 1990s in arizona and did run for higher office, though he did not win. but his contention that the al january 6th rioters are sitting in jail unchanged is patently

false. hundreds of people have been charged. some have pleaded guilty. others innocent. others are awaiting trial. there has also been many investigations into the 2020 election, even in his home state of arizona, where you had a review by election officials and you had a person group calling themselves the cyber ninjas looking into it as well. you know what they found? joe biden won the 2020 presidential election. but max simply will not believe the results of those investigations. don? bergeron >> sarah, thank you. we'll be right back.

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