reproductive health care. not politicians, not ted cruz, not the republicans on the senate judiciary committee. they do not want them in their house. and they want to make their own decisions. >> senator, let me ask you could they just believe as well that there should be some restrictions on abortions but there shouldn't be an outright ban on abortion? >> i think what was on the table for them, i don't know what they would think about restrictions or various things. i think what was on the table for them was really are they going to allow any kind of choice in reproductive health care. and when i look at what they were seeing, the extremism, i'm sure many of those voters heard about the 10-year-old in ohio that had -- couldn't even get an abortion after being raped and then had to -- went to indiana, brought to indiana and got her

health care there. then the doctor that performed the procedure got in trouble, or at least didn't really get in trouble, didn't do one thing wrong but the attorney general starts looking into her. when you hear stories like that, voters hear it, regular people hear it. and i think that's what was resonating with them. they want to be able to make their own decisions on reproductive health care. and i don't think we could put in their minds what they thought of restrictions or not. i just think that the views that we're seeing is what they voted on, right? we've got people including actually senator mcconnell who've said they want to put a ban into law, a ban, outright ban. we have governors in states like texas who have talked about putting even more restrictions in place. states like missouri where someone proposed criminalizing it, where people have proposed suing people when they cross lines or not allowing them to get their own health care in

other states. all these things are reality for people. they're hearing about it. so i can't tell you where they draw the line. i just know that they don't want to lose their rights. >> senator, president biden signing this new executive order aimed at protecting abortion access and calling on congress to codify roe. the filibuster stands in the way of that. but does kansas show the hunger for these protections is really out there, that you know, all of these people who want -- at least the extremes when it comes to abortion, that they're not in step with what most americans want, and that includes republicans. >> that's for sure. a lot of people talking about it today. let me tell you that. i -- >> talk to me about that. tell me about that. what are they saying? >> well, i just think republicans saw it as a wake-up call. i don't see that changing a bunch of their positions that they've firmly held for a long time. but as you point out, really all we need is two more senators. i'd like three or four. and we have such great

possibilities from fetterman in pennsylvania and barnes in wisconsin, to judge beasley in north carolina, val demings in florida. to pick up seats in addition to making sure we re-elect our incredible incumbents who are doing so well and are such a big contrast to their opponents, with maggie hansen in new hampshire and reverend warnock and you've got mark kelly and you have catherine cardozo masto in nevada. that's what each state's going to look at. and if kansas looked at it that way imagine what these other states are going to see because they have someone with really extreme views in nearly every one of those races on the other side. so that's what i think is going to matter. and i'm telling you right now, don, kansas was the wake-up call and that's what we were talking about today. and i heard it from a few republicans as well. they don't have the 60 votes. so we need the votes to reverse

the filibuster so we can actually codify roe v. wade. >> it sounds like what you're sake is there's some optimism, more optimism among democrats after what kansas did last night. >> we've been saying it forever, 70% to 80% of the american people actually want to see reproductive freedom. every poll shows it. and i think the question was with women and men that support them, were they going to actually support at the polls? and they showed up in the weirdest election in the middle of august at a primary time, they tried to bury this as much as possible, and they showed up and voted. >> well, i mean, when it comes to november. if this is going to motivate democrats and even some republicans come november. that's what i meant. that's what the optimism is about. >> yeah. it's about the kind of turnout and the new voters and people you saw coming out. sure, that is optimism. but remember, they're also seeing at the same time, even though this was a vote specifically on abortion, what they're seeing at the same time

is we're actually getting stuff done. the chips bill, we're going to be making semiconductor chips in america again. not dependent on foreign countries for a key component in our cars and our phones. burn pits. democrats stood up for our veterans. we just today voted to get finland and sweden into nato. only two people objected to that. we were able to move forward on the gun safety bill. took on the nra. my shipping bill finally passed to take on the international conglomerates. it's one thing after another, don. and look what you're going to be seeing in the coming weeks. for the first time lifting that ban that was put into law that says that the pharmaceuticals own washington. well, finally medicare is going to be able to negotiate less expensive drugs for seniors. climate, moving on that. and i predict by this time next week if i go on your show this major bill to bring down inflation is going to have

passed with $305 billion, score came out today, in deficit reduction. >> i'm going to hold you to that. >> okay, don. i'm ready to go. >> let me ask you this. >> we've got a date. >> you just mentioned these legislative victories, right? from the biden administration. but a growing number of democrats aren't fully sold on him running in 2024. i'm sure you've seen the clips of democrats being asked about it. would you support him for a second term? >> yes. i've made that very clear. and i think you can see the kind of leadership he's been showing over these last few months. >> thank you, senator. and again, so maybe i'll see you next week. >> okay. i will. what do you mean? we have a date. can't wait. >> i appreciate it. >> see you, don. >> senator amy klobuchar. >> maybe something better than water. okay. bye. >> i want to bring in presidential historian jon meacham. he's the author of "and then there was light." how are you? good to see you. >> you're making dates on the air. >> i'm using this as my dating

vehicle. yeah. there's one person who may not be happy about that. but the future of our democracy was on the ballot on tuesday, and with so many election deniers winning republican nominations it's going to be on the ballot with final consequences come november. how could the results of this midterm echo in the coming years do you think? >> it's essential. it is without doubt the most consequential period. we're living through the most consequential period in testing the durability of the constitutional conversation, the foundational document, as imperfect as it is, that has shaped the life of the country for almost 250 years. and i don't think that's hyperbolic. i think when you look at the data points including these primaries as you say with the election deniers you see that there is an organized and

pernicious effort afoot in the country to put the will to power over the common good. the pursuit of the common good. and that may sound homiletic, overly sentimental somehow, but it's not. every now and then you have to call something what it is. and we're living through an enormous test of citizenship. are we up to democracy? because it's not an easy thing to do. if it were easy, everybody would have been doing it. we're a remarkable exception to the rule that republics don't endure. but that's not a permanent exception. and that's what's on the ballot. >> i love having you on because look, it's reaffirming for me. because over the past seven years or so watching, sitting here, being at the forefront, right at the vanguard of what's happening, conveying it to the american people and really to the world because we're an international news organization,

as someone whose job is mentioned in the very first amendment of the constitution, to hold the powerful accountable and to question, question, question, question, it is important to realize the moment that we're in because -- and if i miss it, if we miss it as journalists, right? freedom of the press. then that is a ripple effect. right? that's a domino effect for people around the country and around the world. so we can't miss this moment because it's so important to democracy not only in america but the world over because they look to us as an example. >> they do. and we forget that sometimes. american democracy is not pure democracy. we're a democratic republic. we had battles between madison and hamilton and hamilton and jefferson about this. we have been arguing over the nature of the republic forever. my friend howard fineman wrote a book about it. we are founded on argument.

and that is really complicated because to get quasi-heavy for a second, what the constitution demands is that we are willing to lose from time to time, that we don't undermine or question the legitimacy of our defeat. that's the entire -- go look at -- i wouldn't inflict this on you, but this is what the federalist papers are about. this is what an enormous amount of philosophy that shaped the founding and has shaped our reform movements throughout, is about. it's that we are driven as human beings by appetite and ambition, we're fallen, frail and fallible, most of what we want to do is bad. you know, if we're being honest. and if you and i can do the right thing 51% of the time that's a heck of a good day. and a democracy is the fullest manifestation of all of us. so if the country gets things right just over half the time,

that's about what we can expect. i wish it were better. i understand that. i have friends on the left who think i'm too sentimental about this. but human experience again and again tells us that the founders' insight that having contending factions and making drastic action difficult is probably not a bad bet. and the entire enterprise, i believe this as strongly as i believe anything, the entire democratic enterprise, the entire american enterprise, depends on our seeing each other not as reflexive adversaries but as neighbors. neighbors who have competing interests, neighbors with whom we may disagree 99% of the time, but human experience again tells us that if you respect somebody else's victory they're more likely to respect yours. and that's the pernicious thing

that's going on with the big lie stuff. >> okay. so let's talk about the big lie. i'm glad you said that perfectly because arizona is the latest state where a trump-backed election denier could become the secretary of state. that is important stuff. what happens if the big lie supporters can tip the levers of the next presidential election? >> then the constitution is shredded. arguably beyond recovery. because once you break something like the united states i don't think you put it back together. certainly not. and i say that with -- i purposely say that. i'm not popping off here. i believe that. if we have -- if the mechanics of power are willing to act -- if the architects, the people who manage power, manage elections are willing to enable and manifest falsehood and take

an election away from what the will of the people demonstrated, then the threshold question about a democratic republic falls away because what the framers would have said is that we were a popular government, that ultimately for all the checks and balances it was rooted in the people. if you have state-level, county level, even precinct level people who are willing to perpetuate a fraud on the democratic, lower case d, experiment, then the threshold requirement of a democracy breaks down. and then the question is what replaces it? right? and this isn't just -- i would say to our friends in the business world. this isn't just some political guys talking like the two old guys in the muppet balcony. right? if you break the constitution what makes you think that other contracts will be honored? look at this as a global story.

if you lose something like this, then there is -- you used the phrase domino effect a moment ago. there's a pernicious, complicating set of factors that makes democratic capitalism vulnerable to attack from the political side. and what replaces democratic capitalism? around the world it's cl clept cleptocracy, it's oligarchs. do you want to pay off the party in power so you can do business somewhere? i don't think so. so this is super important. joe biden is my friend. i help him when i can. so take this for what it's worth. but that's why president biden's and his administration's success in delivering results in a constitutional way is so vital. is because at this moment, you mentioned journalists. one thing that drives me a little crazy is sometimes people who do what you and i do almost act as though this is 1986, you know, and bob dole and george

mitchell are going on capital gang to argue about something. this is not that. >> we're not there anymore. >> this is different. and we have to rise to the level of events. >> i'm glad you mentioned that. and you said people are watching, business guys saying those two old guys sitting there talking about this. the interesting thing for me is considering my background and my ancestry is this is -- how do i say this? not that there's more import -- maybe there is. considering the history of this country and what a thriving and robust democracy means to people like me, even to women. and if we lose that because of, you know, business folks who are cynical about this is a business, journalism -- then we've lost the plot. and so even some of the people who talk about advocacy, well,

you shouldn't -- there's no room for advocacy in journalism. that's not necessarily true. i'm not an advocate journalist. that's not true. advocate is not a bad word. because of advocates, because of journalists who are advocates as well, i have the right to vote. i have the right to sit here. i have the right to be able to sit in the front of a bus or the front of an airplane or to do a lot of things. so those things aren't necessarily bad. so again, we have to realize the moment that we're in because if we lose this then we lose everything. and that is critical for marginalized people. that's critical for black people. that's critical for immigrants. that's critical for women. that's critical for people who are not christians in this country who some christians may want to ostracize because they don't believe in their religion. the reason that we left england is because of what, religious freedom. and there are people who believe this is a christian nation. it's not just a christian nation. this is a nation of muslims. this is a nation of atheists. this is a nation of christians.

this is a nation of catholics. this is a nation of baptists. it's a nation of everyone, for everybody. but it shouldn't be a nation of election deniers and liars and people who try to capitalize on that and opportunists and grifters who have the preeminent voice in this country. that's not america. and i don't think we should allow our country to go down that road. >> i don't either. and let me just join cause here. i'm a boringly heterosexual white southern male episcopal. right? i am a christian. not a very good one. i'm a southern white man. right? and i believe with you that i will also suffer if we lose the constitutional plot because i think what's important here is as the case is made do you want

to continue the constitutional conversation, as imperfect as it is, or do you want to just win at any cost including breaking the rule of law, because that's the question. that was the question after the presidential election in 2020. if that happens, it's not just the marginalized who -- the previously and historically marginalized who lose. i lose. my kids lose. because the entire construct of a government devoted to an idea, that we are all created equal and endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights, collapses. and our standing as equal beings, as figures of dignity with the capacity to determine our own destiny, that status is eliminated. and you become an adherent to a partisan, authoritarian force. and what matters is not that you

were born, which is the birthright and the idea behind the american experiment, that once born ideally you are entitled to the same respect and dignity of anybody else. it's not that anymore. it's how do you stand with the current regime? that's a very different, pernicious thing. and if anybody doubts what we're saying, go check out the history of europe over the last 400, 500 years. and see where you would like to be. >> jon meacham, always a pleasure. thank you, sir. and you're not boring, by the way. those other things i'll grant you. but you're not boring. >> let's not poll on that. >> thank you, jon. i appreciate it. we'll be right back, everyone. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps?

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sources telling cnn that the secret service may just disable

texting on employees' cell phones temporarily while they fix how messages are retained. that in the wake of a firestorm over missing messages relative to january 6th and the investigation surrounding it. joining me now cnn political analyst alex burns, co-author of the book "this will not pass," and our chief legal analyst mr. jeffrey toobin. gentlemen, good evening. thanks so much for joining. let's see. alex, i'm going to start with you. give me a reaction to this move from the secret service because it's not just them. we know of missing texts around january 6th from the department of homeland security and the pentagon as well. >> well, don, i think it certainly shows the degree to which whatever effort there may or may not have been to conceal information or withhold information or create gaps in information, the degree to which that has now sort of spiraled beyond any particular person or even agency's control. this is an investigation that's

turned up important gaps in the record of information that's available to the congress and to other investigators. and the different administrative agencies that oversee these information systems are now sort of trying, it seems, somewhat desperately to catch up with the facts as they're unfolding. look, we don't know what information might still be able to be recovered. we don't know exactly why the information wasn't accessible to begin with. but it does seem like now the executive branch of government is acting with at least some sense of urgency to get some of those answered. >> catch up. alex used a great phrase there. how about catching up with the 21st century? the secret service can't text? like they're going to take away texting from all secret service agents? what if they need to text to protect the president? just like this agency, how can they operate? the good news for them would be we're just totally inand pent and can't keep track of any of

our data. the bad news is we buried this stuff because we didn't want the january 6th committee to get it. but either way -- >> it could be both. >> well, it could be both. but either way doesn't fill you with a lot of confidence. >> i can't believe that an agency that is as important as the secret service can't keep their text messages in check. but listen, as i said, it's the department of homeland security and the pentagon as well. i'm not saying there's anything nefarious here, but it certainly -- if it walks like a duck. >> the one thing that seems clear is this investigation should not be done by the department of homeland security, should not be done by the secret service, should be done by someone -- some agency that's outside their control. >> there's another big development here because the former trump white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy, patrick philbin, have been subpoenaed by a federal grand jury. they have both already testified before the select committee, but i wonder how could that

questioning -- the question is how could that questioning be different? but it can be different because this is more of a -- the january 6th committee is a political, right? that's political. jeffrey, this is legal. this would be more of a legal investigation. >> right. but there are legal obstacles. i mean, there are issues of executive privilege that could be raised. there are issues of attorney-client privilege that could be raised even though they were both government lawyers, the courts have held that in certain circumstances with certain kinds of communication the attorney-client privilege is invoked. almost certainly this will be going to court. but remember who we're talking about. this is an investigation of donald trump now. this is someone who doesn't text, who doesn't e-mail. so the only way we're going to know what donald trump was doing and thinking is through witnesses. and cipollone, as we know from cassidy hutchinson's testimony, was involved in this -- was

trying to keep things under control. so he'll know -- >> perhaps i wasn't clear. but isn't a grand jury, testimony in front of a grand jury, isn't that of more import than in front of the january 6th committee? >> the courts sometimes, yes, give more deference to a january 6th investigation than a congressional investigation. but maybe it's still not 100% clear. >> alex, i want to talk about what's happening at "the new york times." your colleagues at "the new york times," maggie haberman -- your colleague i should say, is reporting that john eastman sent an e-mail to rudy giuliani two weeks after january 6th arguing they should sue georgia to keep searching for fraud while acknowledging that they failed to find any fraud. so he knew the truth. but he just kept pushing anyway. >> right. and don, this is so much of the picture that has gotten filled in over the last few weeks and months as more of that correspondence and more of this testimony has come into public view, is this sense that even the people who were pushing the most far out and aggressively

let's just say euphemistically aggressively creative theories of how to push the case of election fraud, that they knew that they didn't have the goods. right? that we heard from people in the president's inner circle who say he was told repeatedly that the facts were not there. we know that rudy giuliani acknowledged to people that he was pursuing theories that he had not found factual support for. and now we have john eastman after the insurrection at the capitol saying they should file lawsuits around a different election, the senate runoffs in georgia on january 5th, because if they found evidence of fraud there then surely that would imply a greater possibility of fraud in the november election. this is really far-fetched stuff. and by the way, another piece of reporting by maggie and the "times" is that john eastman wasn't exactly doing this pro bono either. >> he wanted money.

>> he was billing an enormous amount to donald trump and asking for help collecting those fees. >> he wanted -- the amount was he wanted help collecting a $270,000 invoice that he sent to the trump campaign for his legal services. >> i mean, could this be a more perfect donald trump story? i mean, stiffing contractors is something that goes back decades with him. and john eastman may get himself indicted but donald trump's still not going to pay his legal fees. >> thank you, alex. thank you, jeffrey. i appreciate it. he's making deals on climate, health care, manufacturing, gun safety, but biden's approval rating is still sitting at 36%. what gives? twice as hard when you take it again the next day. so betty can be the... barcode beat conductor. ♪ go betty! ♪ let's be more than our allergies! zeize the day. with zyrtec. buried in receipts, invoices and other paperwork that's preventing you from doing what matters most? then get the all new epson rapidreceipt smart organizer to scan, digitize and organize your documents and receipts. paper goes in

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so it has been the summer of wins for president biden and the democrats. a deal on climate and health care passing the chips act, gun legislation and a bill meant to help veterans affected by burn pits. three of those passing just this week.

the president also announcing the u.s. killed al qaeda leader ayman al zawahiri in a drone strike. and on top of all of that gas prices have now fallen from their record high of $5 a gallon to 4 -- for 50 straight days i should say. i want to bring in now "washington post" columnist max boot and cnn political commentator bakari sellers. good evening to you. wow, bakari, that is a big smile on your face. what's up with that? >> listen, eph been somebody who's come on this show many times and people know that i like to push sxl hold my elected officials accountable, especially when we go out and do work to get them elected. but in a 50-50 senate many of the accomplishments you named from chips to pact to the transportation piece of legislation, i mean, and you talk about this inflation reduction act, bipartisan in fashion, when you look at these things and you look at the successes that joe biden has had over the past seven to ten days, you're now starting to see that

somebody who's joe biden's age who believed we could achieve these bipartisan goals may have been actually on to something. >> yeah. he's gotten a lot of criticism from people saying he's operating in a time that is no longer. yours truly said the same thing. but, you know, he's proven a lot of folks wrong. there's a lot of crow to eat over the last couple of days. including myself. i can admit that. but max, i haven't seen bakari smile this much on air i think since like 2014. it has been a good few days for president biden and his administration. a lot of voters -- a lot that voters can talk about. a lot that democrats can tout. do you think this can be a turning point for the president and his party? >> it's really hard to say, don. i think it's hard to have any kind of turning point as long as inflation remains at around 9% and as long as people are worried about a recession. i think that's going to be the

dominant force driving our politics although there are certainly others including the backlash over the supreme court opening the way to ban abortion. but i think fundamentally it's really the inflation rate which is artificially depressing biden's popularity even though it's hard to say that it's really mainly his fault or even partially his fault given the fact that inflation in europe is almost identical to what it is here. 8.9% versus 9.1%. i mean, you're going to blame biden for inflation in france? that's ridiculous. this is a global phenomenon with increasing energy prices and other factors going on. but you know, biden like any other president is really at the mercy of the economy. but what i do argue in my "washington post" column is that you know, although biden looks very unpopular right now things could look pretty different by 2024 if by that point inflation is down and we move through

these recession fears, if the economy is strong, biden will look a lot stronger and people will focus on this record of legislative achievement. >> hey, bakari, i have literally just a couple of seconds here. as you know. what should democrats be doing right now to make sure voters are paying attention to what they've done? >> i mean, you've got to go out and spread the good news. you've got to spread the joy. you have to remind people that gas prices are dropping. you have to remind people that on foreign policy, i mean, when you're talking about killing the individual who actually laid the plans for 9/11, you have to tell that story. when you're talking about transportation, the supply chain, you have to tell the story. one of the things that democrats don't do is communicate our own message well. and joe biden has been giving us a message to go out and communicate. now it's our job. use frank scott. use randall wooffett. use chukwe lumumba. use the mayors of these cities who are doing the work these young elected officials and go out and spread the news.

because max is right. if you allow republicans to define you you'll lose every single day of the week. and shout out to kansas. >> thank you, gentlemen. >> i had a lot to get off my chest today. i'm smiling, don. >> i know. look at that smile. wow. i'll have what he's having. >> then i got a haircut, don. i feel handsome. and there's a lot to talk about. >> all right. well, it was all good till the handsome part. thank you very much. i appreciate it. you know, he is spending taxpayer money to bolster the big lie. cnn looks into the county sheriff who not only refuses to accept the outcome of the election but is taking it into his own hands to investigate. that's next. for people who are a little intense about hydration. neutrogena® hydro boost lightweight. fragrance-free. 48 hour hydration. for that healthy skin glow. neutrogena®. for people with skin.

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♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ tonight we have been reporting on the candidates and elected officials nationwide who deny real election results. but there is another group of people who continue to push election lies. they are members of law enforcement including sworn officers, some of them acting on their own or conducting their own investigations despite no credible evidence of rigging or fraud. cnn's sara sidner reports. >> reporter: outside of kansas city in the state's largest county the chief law enforcement officer has joined ranks with people who refuse to let the 2020 election lie die. >> how many of you voted in the

2020 election? put your hands down. how many of you think your vote counted? yeah, see? this is exactly why i'm doing what i'm doing. >> reporter: that's sheriff calvin hayden of johnson county, kansas. just last month at a conference in las vegas. still questioning the validity of the 2020 election results, even though donald trump won his state by 15 points. >> repeat after me. >> reporter: the nearly two-year-old certified vote where joe biden beat donald trump by 74 electoral votes and more than 7 million popular votes. >> there's a lot of stuff going around about what happened in this election. quite frankly, i don'ten't know. but i'm looking. and what we're looking at is we've got a whole lot of reasonable suspicion. and we're starting to develop some probable cause. >> reporter: he says he's assigned sheriff's deputies to investigate 2020 election fraud. >> it's a long, drawn-out investigation. and frankly, they've got a lot

more to do. >> well, it's frustrating. >> reporter: that's the top election official in kansas during the 2020 election, secretary of state scott schwab, a republican. >> did you find any major voter fraud? >> not in our state. we do post-election audits, and we're one of the few states that do the audit before the board of canvassers meet to make sure they have the appropriate data. >> have there been any people who have filed reports of voter fraud with the secretary of state's office? >> yeah, we've had about 12, but they were so knnebulous. >> you had 12, about a dozen complaints concerning potential voter fraud in the entire state to your office. >> to our office. >> reporter: we tried multiple times to talk to sheriff hayden to ask him to explain why he's spending taxpayer dollars looking into an election that has already been audited and certified. he declined. his spokesperson offered this. >> you know, we're still investigating that. it's an open investigation.

and we're really not going to make any more comments on it. >> reporter: turns out sheriff hayden is one of several elected sheriffs who say they're looking into mass fraud in the 2020 presidential election. something that has been widely debunked by secretaries of state across the country and dozens of courts. but their ideas are applauded even encouraged by an organization they are all members of. the organization is the constitutional sheriffs and peace officers association. run by a former arizona sheriff, richard mack. >> our biggest concern now at the cspoa is election fraud. >> reporter: that was richard mack at the conference he puts on in vegas. he has formed a whole dues-paying organization around the idea of constitutional sheriffs, who he says should not enforce laws they deem unconstitutional. even if passed by legislatures. do you think that the 2020 election was fraudulent? >> no one knows that.

no one knows that. and people came out like william barr and said oh, well, there could have been some fraud but it wouldn't have changed the election. he's a liar. he is a liar. >> reporter: secretary of states from across this country have said we do know that. there was not enough fraud to change anything. and -- >> they're lying. >> reporter: hold on. >> they're lying. >> reporter: his view on the attack on the capitol -- >> and i said, anybody that went and broke into the capitol deserves to be arrested. but what the fbi has done and the way they've been going after people and people are still sitting in prison without charges and without trials, what they have done, oh, my gosh. it proves that the fbi will do anything they're told. they're a bunch of nuremberg officers. >> reporter: you just compared the federal bureau of investigation officers -- >> yes. >> reporter: -- the rank and file -- >> yes. >> reporter: -- to nazis. >> they just do what they're told.

>> reporter: it is real disturbing to hear someone who is in law enforcement to compare the fbi with the slaughter, people who slaughtered 6 million jews and many other people. >> okay. >> reporter: do you see how that could create a really bad taste in people's mouths to hear a sheriff, a former sheriff say that -- >> no. you're taking that way too far. because this is what -- >> reporter: but nuremberg. you just compared them to -- >> okay. >> reporter: you made the comparison, not me. >> all right. fair enough. but i will tell you why. because the nuremberg trial brought up one particular point. and it's you can't hold me responsible because i was just following orders. >> reporter: he says constitutional sheriffs won't and therefore sees an essential role for them in the electoral process. >> i will tell you one thing. there is overwhelming evidence that cannot be dismissed and all we're asking for is for sheriffs to conduct honest and fair

investigations to determine if there is fraud. >> reporter: by the way, mack was a sheriff in the 1990s in arizona and did run for higher office, though he did not win. but his contention that the alleged jan 6 rioters were sitting in jail or are sitting in jail uncharged is patently false. hundreds of people have been charged. some have pleaded guilty, others innocent. some are awaiting trial. and there has also been many investigations into the 2020 election. even in his home state of arizona, where you had a review by election officials and you had a partisan group calling themselves the cyber ninjas look into it as well. and you know what they found? joe biden won the 2020 presidential election. but mack simply will not believe the results of those investigations. don? >> sara, thank you. we'll be right back. just without the lactose.

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a warm welcome to our viewers joining us in the united states and all around the world. i'm max foster in london. just ahead -- >> conviction rate in russia is very high, about 99%. in terms of sentencing, judges in russia have tremendous discretion. it is not like in the u.s. where you have sentencing guide lines. >> your attorney is messed up sending an entire digital copy of your entire cellphone with every text message you've sent for the past two years. >> 20 hours later, she is back on the plane, she's out and chinese ships are surroundin