manage the consequences of this latest political charade too, including by continuing to support new york city and washington, d.c. abbott has not shown any indication he plans to stop the buses any time soon. the news continues. i want to hand it over to sara i want to hand it over to sara sidner and "cnn tonight." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com anderson, good to see you. thank you. i am sara sidner and this is "cnn tonight." we are going to take you through the twists and turns donald trump and the country are going through. there are so many questions yet to be answered about what led fbi agents to mar-a-lago on monday and also who may have led them there. "the wall street journal" is now reporting there was an informant, someone familiar with documents stored at trump's residence who told investigators

there could be more classified documents after the national archives already retrieved 15 boxes. so, the fbi was reportedly tipped off by someone who led them to execute the search warrant. attorney general merrick garland faces increasing pressure to say something publicly about why the fbi conducted the search. the calls are not just coming from outside the justice department. cnn has learned some officials within the doj believe the department should provide a public statement. they argue internally the silence is harmful to the department and the public's interest. that's in part because donald trump and his allies have filled the void with angry speculative rhetoric. to that point, the ex-president puts out baseless accusations today that the fbi, quote, planted incriminating material before searching his residence, trying to cast this as some sort of conspiracy against him. trump or his team have a copy of the search warrant.

normally it does list the items to be seized. and he could make that available to the public. but he hasn't. meanwhile, the fbi's move shouldn't have come as complete surprise to him. a source tells cnn doj investigators subpoenaed the trump organization for a copy of mar-a-lago's surveillance videos previously, and they were handed over. so, that could have been a giant clue. it's been quite a week so far for donald trump and it's only wednesday. the search warrant was issued monday at mar-a-lago. yesterday a federal appeals court ruled trump must give tax returns to congress. and today he had to appear in a new york attorney general probe of his company. the deposition lasted four hours but donald trump didn't answer questions. he pleaded the fifth over and over again, despite insinuating numerous times over the years, taking the fifth is what guilty people do. >> you see the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you

taking the fifth amendment? >> now, he says he has the answer to that question. in his words, when you're the target of a, quote, witch hunt, you have no choice. now, the pressure is clearly building on the former president, as his legal jeopardy intense identifies. so many investigationing looming over his simultaneously, including the georgia election interference probe and the january 6th investigations. let's take all of this to two people who understand the stakes. nick ackerman is a former watergate special prosecutor and assistant in the southern district of new york and john dee was famously the star witness in the watergate hearings. gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> all right. i want to start with this. i will start with you, nick. what are your concerns with the gop very loudly, forcefully -- we're talking about people who were both in office and who are

big names in media -- going after the fbi's integrity in this case? >> well, i think it just shows their total ignorance of how a search warrant works. you mentioned before that donald trump received an actual copy of the warrant, which he has not made public. he also received an inventory of everything that was taken. so, if anybody had any notion that anything was planted on there, all of the documents that were seized by the fbi would be on that inventory. and if there was anything that even looked remotely suspicious, donald trump could go into court to the district court judge who signed that search warrant and ask that that be looked at. they're not doing it. they're not showing you what that inventory is. they're not releasing it to the the public. if they did, we'd have a better idea of what the fbi was searching for, where they were

searching, and what it was they seized. so, what you're dealing with here are a bunch of ignoramuses who just don't understand how the system works and they don't care to understand how the system works. >> and people would argue it is incumbent on us to explain that. i myself have seen what it looks like when the fbi leaves what i would call a receipt of all the things that have been taken. and they do that in every case, generally. so, this one should be no different. john dean -- >> they have to. >> i have a question for you. when you see the landscape right now -- because this isn't just a legal issue. this is, of course -- and i think the fbi had to have known this, the doj had to have known -- that this was going to be blown up into a political issue. when you look at what is happening here, does any of this surprise you after what you have been through with watergate? looking at the scenario now with the way the gop is dealing with this, is this a surprise to you

at all? >> it's a disintegration of the republican party. and the great irony, particularly in a case like this, is the silence of the department of justice and the procedures they followed are so protect the innocent, protect donald trump. but, yet, they're turning around and painting it -- painting the fbi in this process as guilty and somehow illicit and improper. it's just -- it's beyond irony. it's almost pushing towards the edge of obstruction. there are limits to the first amendment. and if they start getting physical about this, then they're going to find themselves committing crimes. but the fact that the republican party has sunk to this base level and people who do know better, people who are trained as lawyers, are making these just outrageous comments about this whole process. and it really -- i think at some point, justice may have to say

something to put this in context because we don't want riots over this. and that seems to be what the gop would like. >> i think that's what you're hearing from inside the doj with people saying, you've got to say something. john, i want to ask you what you think of this reporting that has come out from the "wall street journal" that someone tipped off investigators that there were potentially additional very sensitive documents that, you know, those who investigators have been talking to in the trump sphere hadn't let them know about. do you think that this may have been key to why you saw a search as opposed to a negotiation to get more of those documents? >> it's very possible. as you know, we don't know what exactly they were seeking. but it could have been a tip that made it very timely for them, and they were able to know what documents were there and what was being done with them. now, this could be -- these are

apparently very highly-classified documents. and the national archives is very, very sensitive to this issue. they go after documents like this. i know of instances where former high-level aides have had -- they've been threatened with prosecution because they took and kept documents. so, they try to police this. they try to do it politely, nicely. but when somebody doesn't play by the rules, they go after it. and i think that's what the situation is here. they knew trump had this. they got timely information as to where this material might be or what was being done with it even, and they decided they had to move to protect the national security. >> nick, one of the things we've been hearing from trump's circle is, that look, he declassified these documents when he was president. no big deal. what do you make had of that? >> first of all, there's no evidence he declassified any documents. secondly, there's really no evidence that this search

warrant was directed at these classified documents. the only thing we know is from what the trump people have said who were present when the fbi executed the search warrant. they're the ones that say it has to do with classified documents. we don't know if that's what it was. again, if we had the search warrant and we had the inventory, we would know basically what the contours of that search warrant were. but the fact of the matter is, i think there was somebody inside who provided the probable cause that a crime had been committed and that there was evidence of a crime because one of the things that you need in a search warrant is to have current information. it cannot be stale. you need something from the last 30 to 45 days that indicates that, yes, there's evidence of a crime in this particular location. so, i don't think it's any surprise that there is some insider who has provided the

probable cause that ultimately led to this search warrant. >> john, can i just quickly ask you, how different is it now compared to your experience with watergate? watergate was the biggest thing that ever happened in the political realm in this country, if you're going to argue about criminality. what do you make of this? >> very, very different. it's very different today. the whole atmosphere, the polarization, the treatment of people who are involved in the process, it's much rougher today because they're playing rough. and there was a lot of courtesy given during watergate, assumptions. people would follow the norms and do the right things, that their lawyers would, that there wouldn't be lying and there was trust. so, things were resolved in a much different way. >> nick ackerman and john dean, i thank you both for coming on and sharing your expertise with us. >> thank you. more now on the republican uproar over the mar-a-lago search ahead.

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and now, all smart beds are on sale. save 50% on the sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed. only for a limited time. house gop leader kevin mccarthy is sowing further distrust in the justice department after the mar-a-lago search. he posted this on facebook today. if you're an elected republican and you are staying quiet while democrats in washington are abusing their power, you are the very reason they think they can get away with it. now is the time to speak up and be loud. joining me now to discuss is former federal and state prosecutor elie honig, former republican congressman and governor of south carolina, mark sanford, and our senior political analyst, john avlon. okay. so, you just saw what kevin mccarthy put out. what is this? i hate to use the word "call to

arms," but what is he is asking republicans to do? what does he expect to happen? >> first of all, it's the game of project and deflect that he learned from donald trump, right? i mean, the idea that after standing by and defending donald trump, politicization of the justice department, constant abuse of power culminating on an attack on the capitol that somehow republicans are victims is a willful flip of the script. it's also a way to stay in donald trump's good graces. and power is more important in this man's case. >> mr. sanford, when you look at something like that and the questioning of the fbi and the doj -- and it has been pretty heavy all day long from those in elected position and those who are big talkers on the right. what are they trying to do? what are they trying to say? >> i go back to what john says.

the name of the game for all too many in politics is a game of self-interest. so, the name of the game, to john's point, for kevin is, i want to be speaker and i don't want to do anything to disrupt my path to speakership. and staying in donald trump's good graces i think is paramount, in his belief, to climbing that particular mound. more importantly, what you see at play is a continued degradation of the institutions that have held the american system in place. and that's the bigger danger, not whatever happens next with regard to trump or not, but frankly people's continued growing distrust in the institutions that have been the fabric of our republic for 200-plus years. >> i want to talk about something that has been on a lot of people's minds, not just republicans, the fbi's integrity. there has been, in the past, have been things that have come up, and in the recent past. i want to get to some of them.

you had the peter strzok situation, who criticized trump as this investigation was going on. they found text messages. you had comey's actions being called extraordinary and insubordinate according to one report. you've got the roles of the fbi and informants that went very wrong in michigan with the plot to kidnap the governor there. and then the fisa court came out when it comes to carter page and the surveillance there saying it was outrageous. so, you do have instances where people can actually look at them and say, these things did happen. this is why. is that a fair idea that, look, there have been some things to question, and they should be able to question them? >> it is absolutely fair. people absolutely have the right to criticize and question the justice department, the fbi, your local police. i think we have to keep in mind the big picture here.

i can name more failures than that. but there are tens of thousands upon ten of thousands of cases that doj and fbi and local prosecutors handle correctively and effectively every day. where i draw a line -- and i think we're seeing to governor sanford and john's point -- where you're fomenting active resistance. resistance to law enforcement. we see where that can lead. we know the code words. they called it the siren call. how do people think they know already if this is a perfectly good search or a horrible search? and we see it both ways, right? i'm not saying it's equal, but you see republicans saying, this is an abomination. this is a violation. and you see people saying, this is airtight and perfect. none of us know that. there are ten people in the world that know that right now and they're all inside doj or a courthouse. i think there's a lot of jumping to conclusions here. >> john?

>> i think it's particularly rough to see a party that calls itself and prides itself on being a party of law and order demonize law enforcement. i'm not saying the absurdity of some folks saying defund the fbi who are members of congress. let's take the chat rooms out of this. let's talk about elected officials who have an obligation and ought to know better. it is a degradation about our economic institutions, about the weakening of the guardrail systemically and cynically. that's where the data comes in, and that's what we're watching in real time, again. >> you talked about the fact that there's this degradation going on. but you're hearing calls to action, not necessarily -- you heard mccarthy, right, saying, you better do something. but you're also hearing violent rhetoric that has come off of that. >> sure. >> because online there's a lot of that. but that is exactly the kind of rhetoric that led up to january 6th. so, how concerning is it when you hear some like mccarthy telling democrats to do something, people should rise

up, this could happen to you. do you see there's going to be a violent fallout to this ultimately? >> god, i hope not, as an american. but this is what happens when you play with fire. history is real clear. we've been through far worse periods in our past. it's important to keep that perspective. it's important to keep your sense of optimism. where it gets dangerous is where people who hold elected office give credence to and pour fuel on the fire from the rarefied position. then people can start internalizing it and feeling like they have permission. that's the story of january 6th. here we are within, you know, two years of that attack, and the learning curve seems to be close to zero. and that's where the danger comes in. >> they've learned that it works to rile up. and they're fundraising off of it. i do want to get you to, elie. the informant. this reporting from the "wall street journal" -- we heard from

farah who was on saying, i would put money on the fact there was somebody pointing out they have more than you think they have. >> there's an air of mystique or mystery around the word "informant." you think of bubbles in wyatt earp, right? the reality is informants are just people most of the time just like me or you. it could well be a run of the mill staffer. and people provide information to law enforcement for all good reasons, some good, some bad, some a little bit of both. i will tell you the one thing that separates the best cops from the rest is how good their informant network is. that's how you learn things. that's how you get inside of these organizations. and it's not a surprise because i saw reporting earlier saying that mar-a-lago is 100 rooms. and these are glitzy rooms with all sorts of chandeliers and

closets and all that. they would still be searching that today -- i mean that not hyperbollically. they would still be searching today if they did not know where to look. it's not at all surprising they had specific information, look here, got what they needed, and out in a few hours. >> we have one more hour to talk about and that's the case in new york. the former president sat down -- although his children have talked, he pled the fifth. what does that say? in a civil case, it's different. in a civil case, it's different when you plead the fifth than a criminal case. and this is a civil case. what does it mean? >> practically, technically, legally, that can be used against donald trump in a civil case. you can stand up in front of a civil jury, which seems increasingly likely and say he took the fifth. you're entitled to assume the worse. you cannot use that against a person in a criminal case. i do want to say this. it's not right for people to say only guilty people take the fifth. trump said it years ago. it's wrong. it's not true. it's not the way our principles are built.

it's not the way our constitution is built. innocent people wrongly accused take the fifth. people who commit a conduct where maybe they're in a gray area, they're being investigated, they can take the fifth. trump has that right. but we have the right to say that is a historic blight for a former president to put himself in that situation. >> elie honig, it's always an interesting conversation with you gentlemen. charges in an alleged iranian plot to assassinate john bolton, and he's not the only trump administration official said to be targeted. the details on that coming up.

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welcome back. we're learning the murder plot made public today against former trump national security adviser john bolton is only one of several threats against u.s. officials by a member of iran's guard. criminal charges against a member of the guard who originally tried to orchestrate bolton assassination. the suspects also allegedly tried to pay an undercover informant to assassinate former trump secretary of state mike pompeo. that suspect is still at large tonight. u.s. officials believe these

threats are retaliation for the u.s. killing of qassem soleimani in 2020. my next guest followed iran's revolutionary guard during his time at the fbi. phil mudd joins me now. thanks for being here. >> sure. >> all right. bolton was notified of this potential threat in 2020. then the secret service -- he no longer had them protecting him. and he wasn't granted secret service protection until 2021 and these charging documents came in 2022. why did the fbi go about it that way? >> i'm not inside the investigation, but i'm looking at it saying you've touched on one of the most fascinating things, and that is timeline. if you have threats to two senior u.s. officials, and more

important, two u.s. citizens, you have to control the operation to make sure there is no risk to the citizens. you would sacrifice the intelligence if you thought there was an imminent threat to bolton or pompeo. so, what does that tell you? the fact this case has been running for a couple of years tells me that the fbi owned the case from the start. that is, they had the confidential human source, the informant within the case, they were watching the case develop. the iranians thought they were running a case. in fact, the fbi was managing the case from the outset. and the reason that the fbi wanted it to run, the reason that i think it was the right decision to let it run is if you want to take that case to a court, you've got to be able to say this wasn't just talk, this wasn't just guys who were bragging. these were people who had information about u.s. officials outlined in the indictment willing to pay, willing to have conversations. the fbi wanted to let it run so that when they went to court, a

defense attorney couldn't tear the case to shreds. this is fascinating. the iranians never owned the case. the fbi did, sara. >> i want to ask you because you have long looked at and have great knowledge of o-iran's revolutionary guard and how it sort of works. what's the end game here if they were to assassinate a u.s. official? what are they expecting is going happen? world war iii? i mean, what are they doing? >> well, there's a couple things here. there's small and there's big. let's go small. the simplest piece here is we assassinated qassem soleimani, the head of the revolutionary guard. he's not just a general. that guy was a legendary figure. if you're sitting in the seat of tehran, i can see them saying, if they're going to take one of ours, we're going to take one of theirs. i think there is a bigger game afoot that americans would struggle to understand. the revolution in iran is not that old.

that's 1979, meaning the people in power in iran were around during the revolution. whom do they view as the biggest threat to the revolutions? the americans. who are the biggest hardlines among americans? mike pompeo is one. the former national security adviser, john bolton, is another. it's not just about vengeance for soleimani. it's about saying to americans, don't threaten our revolution. we know you want to overturn our government and we will warn you about doing that. to me, as somebody who did this for decades, it's perfectly understandable. >> do you think that we will ever see the suspect? in other words, in your mind, a lot of people might say he's probably going to be a ghost. >> no, we will -- i don't think ever. why would you if you were he, ever leave iran. i presume that's where he is now. but that's not the sole point to running the case here. you're going to look at this and i think from the outside you

say, why do you ever charge him if he's not going to leave iran? first of all, we don't know if there's anybody else involved in the case. it looks like not but we're not certain. second -- and this is really interesting. if you're sitting in his shoes, you can never move again. you can't go to europe. you can't go to the beach in the south of france. you can't go to germany. you can't go to the asia. the message is to iranian leadership and orders executing in iranian leadership. you can stay in iran forever, but if you ever want to leave that country, we're going to get you. i think this is significant. and it's not only whether he gets pulled into u.s. court. it's the message that says, you'll never travel again. >> phil mudd, thank you so much for your insight. >> thanks, sure. coming up, trump supporters are furious about the mar-a-lago search. but that's just one source of simmering anger in this country across the political spectrum. can anything be done to diffuse things? that's coming up next.

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as you know, january 6th became a flash point for violence, politically fuelled anger in this country. that rage has not disappeared. it shows up in other ways, once again threatening violence. an example, less than 48 hours after the fbi searched mar-a-lago, threats and other online rhetoric against the magistrate judge believed to have signed the search warrant,

one commenter writes this. i see a rope around his neck, next to the picture of the judge. cnn has not independently confirmed the judge's identity, and we are not naming him. the judge has been doxed and subjected to far more disgusting and violent comments than the one we've just showed you. in response, an official government web page has been changed completely removing the judge's contact information. a number of prominent republicans are fiercely condemning the fbi for that search. some are making outlandish comparisons and spewing conspiracies. >> this is what happens in places like nicaragua, where last year, every single person who ran against daniel ortega for president was arrested and is still in jail. >> this should scare the living daylights out of american citizens the way our federal government has gone. it's like what we thought about the gestapo and people like that, they just go after people. >> you really are now seeing the

ugly face of a tyranny. we have no idea whether or not they planted evidence. >> that is the former house speaker baselessly suggesting the fbi planted evidence. and to all this, add this. a long history of some current and former local law enforcement officials, militias, and other citizens who have wanted to see an end to law enforcement. i got an earful from a sheriff in arizona who runs a sheriff's association. he made this comparison about the role of the fbi after the january 6th attack. >> but what the fbi has done and the way they've been going after people and people are still sitting in prison without charges and without trials, what they have done, oh, my gosh. it proves that the fbi will do anything they're told. they're a bunch of nuremberg officers. they just follow orders instead of following proper law enforcement prout call. >> you just compared the federal

bureau of investigation officers -- >> yes. >> the rank and file -- >> yes. >> to nazis. >> they just do what they're told. >> john avlon and mark sanford are back. and we welcome democratic strategist maria cardona to the conversation. that was difficult to hear. and we did have a back and forth because once i brought up the fact that, when you say nuremberg, you are talking about the massacre of 6 million jews, he said, no, no, i didn't mean that. i said, you made the comparison. he said, yeah, because they only follow orders. i want to go back to those in office who are in power. i'll start with you, governor. what do you make of things you just heard from people in the republican party who are currently serving, put in positions of power, talk about the fbi in those terms? >> that's a lot of people out there still want to be relevant. i was listening to newt gingrich. he's not a dumb guy, whether you

like him or don't like him. >> former speaker of the house. >> former speaker of the house. he has amazing historical context in terms of understanding history. he's just reckless. he wants to be relevant. he's at the end of the game, and the trump wave is the way to stay on the band wagon. i'll play along. and i think it's unfortunate. and i think its underscores the importance of all of us as regular citizens making our voices heard. at the end of the day, the political system is a responsive system. and the people you see in office will do what they need to do to hang on to power. but the drivers of the agenda at the end of the day are you and me, as regular citizens, and that's where all of us need to speak up and make a little bit more noise from the standpoint of sanity for a change because we've gotten away from that. >> just in terms of what they've said, have they chosen party and power over the country? >> yeah, but welcome to -- welcome to politics 101. i mean -- i -- >> but not everybody is doing that. >> i don't like it.

i don't like it. i don't agree with it. but right now we're living in an uber politicized environment where people have encircled the weapons and there's a red team and a blue team. i don't believe in it. i don't think anybody in this panel believes if had it. but in terms of what's happening in this political arena right now, that is what's going on. that's why the founding fathers set up the checks and balances. it's why george washington warned against factions, political parties. that's the world we're living in. >> the republicans have been particularly prone to this. not as much the democrats. they're not doing the exact same thing. not exactly the same. >> well, no, that's exactly right, sara. you are absolutely right, governor, when you said these leaders are saying these things because they want to be relevant. but why do they want to be relevant? what they're saying is for an

audience of one. it's for donald trump. and why is it for donald trump? because he is still the leader of the republican party, and they are speaking to his base, who they believe -- and i don't think that this is correct because i still believe that trump's extremist maga base is still a minority in this country. but they are loud and they scare the bejesus out of what normally would be common sense republican leaders who have now drank that kool-aid from that extremist base and believe the only way to stay relevant is by saying those kinds of outlandish things, which ten years ago, they would have been laughed out of any real relevant political circles. >> but some of the primaries have shown that those who are saying these things are winning in the primaries, republican primaries. i want to address -- because you are really good on these issues when it comes to militias. when it comes sids or former or current law enforcement who

believe the federal government should be abolished. and this has been a long-standing thing. this didn't just happen now. >> you interviewed richard mac. >> yeah. >> and he has been a sheriff avatar for the militia movement. and people who believe consistent with what's called sovereign citizen beliefs, the federal government doesn't really exist. the highest official dom is the sheriff. there are a lot of problems with this. the antigovernment impruls in american politics goes to at least the civil war and reconstruction and then manifested i think on pretty consistent grounds the same spirit of aggressive defenseness that was used in the book "field of blood." the sense they were victims, they have to preemptively attack. and that's the justification that is so often used. what's fascinating and i think important to get per smektive on is the antigovernment movements in america that have been parti particularly violent. in the late 1960s, the violence

was predominantly from the left. there were bombings all over this country, which we've mostly forgotten about. they were protesting the vietnam war and had their rhetoric of class struggle and whatever. in the late 1990s, culminating with the bombing of oklahoma ci city. after oklahoma city, it dissipated for a time. militias grow enormously after the election of barack obama and continued under donald trump. these groups said they were formed to stop a tyrannical government from taking over but rallied around a president who is head of that government. >> exactly right. >> that's the dynamic that's so troubling when these groups become paramilitary organizations dedicated to a person. >> what's interesting is the fuel behind it, which is there are just a lot of people on the right who have gotten tired of the promises of many on the right. and it keeps growing, keeps growing. it seems -- >> this isn't about the side of

government. >> i know. but that's the base of the fuel that started it because it really began with the tea party movement -- >> i disagree. >> -- and morphed. >> i disagree completely. i think what is fuelling it is what donald trump did when he first announced for president, using those extremist views, the politics of hatred, the buy cease, that's what he uses for fuel and republicans are following him. >> we are going to end on that for now. stick around, everyone. it's not exactly a scene out of ellis island. the republican governor of texas is bussing more migrants to new york city with no return ticket. how the democratic mayor of the big apple is responding next. after switching to the farmer's dog we noticed so many improvements in remi's health. his allergies were going away and he just had amazinenergy.

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families, and they just packed them on a bus without any direction. and we learned that many people had to be re-ticketed. they wanted to go somewhere else, but they just specifically targeted new york. >> but abbott says migrants are traveling will ily, and he sent a copy of the consent waiver that travelers are asked to sign. it only lists washington, d.c. and new york city as available destinations. both cities say the influx of people is overwhelming agencies. let's discuss this with john avlon, governor mark sanford, and maria cardona. i'm going to start with you, governor. i want to talk about what is this? why is this happening? what is the point that abbott is trying to make? >> he's trying to make, again, another cardinal rule of politics is that all politics are local. tip o'neill's old saying. and it's true, and so, you know, 4,000 immigrants a day are coming across the border in texas. and to give new york a little

taste of what they're experiencing down in texas, to send 100 folks, and we're talking, again, 100 versus 4,000 a day, i don't think is that big a deal. i think it's great politics. i think from a texas standpoint it's going to play very well for abbott. i think it can make it just a touch more real to folks who say we're a sanctuary city, but now maybe they're saying we're not so sanctuary because we don't want your immigrants from texas. >> i think what you're hearing from adams is we're overwhelmed. what are your thoughts on this? >> i think what abbott is doing is cruel. mayor adams is right about that. it is inhumane. it is using migrants to be a political football, to play these political games. it is insulting as an immigrant myself. this is a governor that not just does not understand the issue of immigration and what actually needs to be solved and how to solve it, but he doesn't care. he has no idea and no willingness to try to figure out how to really resolve this for texans. it's a waste of texas taxpayer

money. it is not on the path for a real solution. i commend mayor adams and my mayor in d.c., mayor bowser, for welcoming these immigrants and for doing what they should be doing, what the federal government needs to do, which is to actually adjudicate their asylum cases if there are those cases, and then to figure out what to do in terms of their court cases, if they can stay, if they need to go. we need changes to our immigration system, and we wish that republicans could join democrats to make that happen. >> well, that's the real issue here, right? look, this is the politics of trolling masquerading as policy. largely it was a public health issue. if you have undocumented immigrants afraid to come forward, that's a major public health issue going back to when these things were started. the larger point is this. too many politicians were rather z demagogue this issue than take steps to solving it. we could come to some agreement, strengthen the border, you know, ease the path to citizenship,

and reduce the burden these cities and states are feeling when they're feeling overwhelmed. so how about we stop demagoguing this issue and start dealing with it? >> if fairness, i was in the political process for 20 years of my life, and it was talked about for all 20 years. at some point, people are like, we've got to try something else. i get where abbott's coming from. they've got 4,000 people a day coming across the border. >> it's not an excuse to use human beings for that kind of political football. >> an open border has never worked in the history -- >> this is not an open border. that is a republican maga talking point that is just untrue. >> you think 4,000 people a day -- >> it goes to do more harm than good because it pits people against each other instead of really trying to come together for a solution. democrats had a solution on the table. republicans said no. >> ultimately, though, you've had democrats and republicans in power, and as you said, for many decades, this issue has not been fixed, solved, even impacted in a big way. >> but we had the gang of eight

around a decade ago that the republicans couldn't pass through the house because they blamed eric cantor losing his primary. so if you really want to do the genealogy on this stuff. >> we did lose that seat, and immigration was -- >> i think that was overhyped. but, look, people right now you see sometimes saying a record number of apprehensions at the border. they're missing the word "apprehensions," right? we do have border enforcement. >> that's right, more than we've ever had. >> we need to find ways to bring people out of the shadows. we need to do all of the above, and the activists won't like it, but we know what to do. >> you also have the issue of the dreamers, right? >> absolutely. >> that is the one i think most people can agree on. >> we can use them. >> all right, john avlon, mark sanford, maria cardona, thank you so much for this lively conversation. >> always. >> and we'll be right back. >> thank you.

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thank you so much for hanging with me. i will be back tomorrow night, but now you get the greatest. laura coates is sitting in for don lemon tonight. i know you're digging deeper on all of the twists and turns of what's happening with the former president, and that show begins right now. hey, laura. >> i want there to be a forever meme that sara sidner the actual greatest just referred to me that way. >> the love is real. >> i can die happy now. thank you, sis. nice to see you as always. a great show. i loved watching it. this is "don lemon tonight." i'm laura coates sitting in for don lemon. there are big developments on the fbi search for documents at former president donald trump's mar-a-lago home. "the wall street journal" reporting tonight that an informant tipped off federal investigators that they were more likely to have more classified documents at the property after national archives took away 15 boxes of materials earlier this year.