more anti-american than shipping people on a bus 45 hour trip with out any of the basic needs they have or direction or coordination. >> it's not unusual for migrants to arrive in cities across the united states, where they're just dropped off. >> that's the case. -- the lack of coordination in this case and court mean occasion with the city's is what is straining resources. mayor adams says that he's in touch with the administration and the white house called the actions of both abbott and doocy both shameful and wrong in a statement -- as we have done many times in response to governor abbott's repeated attempts to create chaos and confusion at the border, we will work to manage the consequences of this latest political charade biden continuing to support new york city and washington d. c., to

grant funding and more as we do in other locations. but anderson, abbott has not shown any plan to stop the busses anytime soon. >> the news continues. i wanna hand it over to sara sidner. i am sara sidner, this is cnn tonight. we will take you to the moment this, legal twists and turns of donald trump and the country are now experiencing. first, there is new reporting this evening related to the unprecedented search of trump's primary home. there are so many questions yet to be answered about what led fbi agents to marlar go on monday and also who may have led them there. the wall street journal is now reporting that there was an informant, someone familiar with documents stored at the trump residence, who told investigators that there could be more classified documents after the national archives already retrieved 15 boxes. so the fbi was reportedly

tipped off by someone who led them to execute a search warrant. attorney general merrick garland faces increasing pressure now to say something publicly about why the fbi conducted a search. calls are not just coming from outside the justice department cnn has learned that some officials within the doj believe the department should provide a public statement. they argue internally, the silence is harmful to the department and public interest. that is in part because donald trump and his allies have filled the void with angry, speculative rhetoric. to the point, the ex president put out baseless accusations today that the fbi, quote, planted incriminating material before searching his residents, trying to cap this is some sort of conspiracy against him. trump or his team have a copy of the search warrant. normally, it does list the atoms to be seized, and he could make that available to the public, but he has not. meanwhile, the fbi raid should

not have come as a complete surprise to him. a source told cnn that -- doj investigators subpoenaed mar-a-lago surveillance videos previously, and they were handed over. that could have been enjoying clue. it has been quite a week so far for donald trump, and it is only wednesday. the search warrant was executed on monday at mar-a-lago. yesterday, a federal appeals court ruled that trump must hand overtaxed turns to congress. and today, he had to appear at a deposition in the new york attorney general's probe of his company. but the position lasted roughly 4 hours, but donald trump did not answer questions. he pleaded the 5th over and over again, despite insinuating numerous times over the years taking the fifth is what's guilty people knew. >> you see the mob takes the 5th. if you are innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? >> now, he says he is the answer that question. in his words, we are the target

of a witch hunt, it is our choice. pressure is clearly building on the former president, as legal jeopardy and has the vice. so many investigations looming over him simultaneously, including the georgia election interference probe and the january 6 investigations. let's take all of this to two people who understand the stakes. nick ackerman is a former water gates special prosecutor and assistant u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york and john dean, you know him well, served as president nixon's white house counsel. he was famously the star witness in the want to get hearings. gentlemen, thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> i want to start with you, nick. what are your concerns that the gop very loudly and possibly, people in office and who are big names in media, going after the fbi integrity in this case? >> i think it just shows

they're brutal ignorance of how a search warrant works. you mentioned before that donald trump received an extra copy of the warned, which has not made public. but he also received an inventory of everything that was taken. if anybody had any notion that anything was planted after, all the documents that was seized by the fbi to be on the inventory, and if there was anything that looked remotely suspicious, donald trump could go into court, to the district court judge who signed that search warrant and asked that be looked at. they are not doing it. they are not showing you with that inventory is. they are not releasing it to the public. if they did, we would have a better idea of what the fbi was searching for, where they were searching, and what it was that they seized? what you are dealing with here is a bunch of ignorant misses who just don't understand how

the system works, and i don't care to understand how the system works. >> people would argue that it is incumbent on us to expand the. i myself have seen what it looks like when the fbi leaves what i would call a receipt of all the things that have been taken, and they do that in every case, generally. so, this one should be no different. -- >> you have to. >> john dean, i have a question for you. when you see the landscape right now. this is not a legal issue, this is, of course, the fbi and the og had to have known that this will be blown up into a political issue. when you look at what is happening here, this any at the surprise you, after you've been through with water gate looking at the scenario now and the way the geo piece dealing with this, is this is suppressed you at all? >> it's a disintegration of the republican party. a great irony in a case like this is the silence for the department of justice and the

procedures they followed to protect the innocent and donald trump, yet they are turning around and putting the fbi and this process as guilty and somehow elicited and improper. it is beyond irony. it is almost pushing towards the end of obstruction. there are limits to the first amendment. they start getting physical about this, then they will find themselves committing crimes. the fact that the republican party has sunk to this base level, and people who do know better. people who are trained as lawyers are making these just outrageous comments about this whole process. and it really, i think, at some point, justice may have to say something to put this in context because we don't want riots over this, and that seems to be with the gop would like.

>> you think that's what you're hearing from inside the doj? it's people saying, you've got to say something. john, i want to ask you what you think of this reporting that has come out from the wall street journal that someone tipped off investigators that there were potentially additional, very sensitive documents that those investigators have been talking to in the trump sphere haven't let them know about. do you think this may have been key to why you saw a search as opposed to a negotiation to get more of those documents? >> it's very possible. as you know, we don't know what exactly they were seeking. but it could have been a tip that made it very timely for them, and they were able to know what documents were there, and what was being done with them. now, this could be, these are apparently very highly classified documents. and the national archive is

very, very sensitive to this issue. they go after documents like this, i know of instances where former high-level aides they've been threatened with prosecution because they took and kept documents. i'll try to police this and are trying to implicitly, nicely, but when somebody doesn't play by the rules, they go after it. and i think that's what the situation is here. they got timely information as to where this material might be or what was being done with it. and they decided they had to move to protect the national security. >> nick, one of the things you've been hearing from trump circle is that, look, he declassify these documents when he was president, no big deal. when you make of that? >> first of all, there's no evidence that he declassified any documents. secondly, there's really no evidence that this search warrant was directed at these classified documents. the only thing we know is, from what the trump people have said,

who were present when the fbi executed the search warrant. they're the ones that said it has to do with classified documents. we don't know if that's what it was. again, if we have the search warrant and we had inventory, we would know, basically with the contours of that search warrant were. but the fact of the matter is, i think there was somebody inside who provided the probable cause that a crime had been committed and that there was evidence of a crime, because one of the things that you need in a search warrant is to have current information. it cannot be stale. you need something from the last 30 to 45 days that indicates that yes, there is evidence of a crime in this particular location. so, i don't think it's any surprise that there is some insider who has provided the probable cause that ultimately led to this search warrant. >> john, can i just quickly ask

you how different is it now compared to what your experience with watergate, watergate was the biggest thing that ever happened in the political realm of this country, if you're gonna argue about criminality. what do you make of this? >> very different. it's very different today. the whole atmosphere, the polarization, the treatment of people who are involved in the process. it's much referred a, because they're playing rough. and there was a lot of courtesy given during watergate, assumptions people would follow the norms, and do the right thing. their lawyers would, there wouldn't be lying, and there is trust. things were resolved in a much different way. >> nick akerman and john dean, i thank you both for coming on and sharing your expertise with us. >> thank you. >> more now on the republican uproar over the mar-a-lago search ahead, what house majority leader, kevin mccarthy, is calling on all elected republicans to do now.

about what he is calling abuses of power. that's coming up.

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house gop leader kevin mccarthy is sowing for the distrust in the justice department after the mar-a-lago search. he posted this on facebook today. if you're an elected republican, and you're staying quiet while democrats in washington are abusing their power, you are the very reason they think they can get away with it. now is the time to speak up and be allowed. loud. joining me now to discuss is former federal and state prosecutor elie honig, former republican congressman and governor of south carolina, mark sanford, and our senior political analyst john avlon. you just saw what kevin mccarthy put out. what is this? i hate ease the word call to arms, but what is he asking republicans to do? what does he expect to happen?

>> first of all, it's the game of project and deflect, that he learned from donald trump. the idea that after standing by and defending donald trump, after the politicization of the justice department, constant abuse of power, culminating in an attack on the capital, that somehow democrats are the aggressors and republicans are the victims, is a willful flipping of the script. it's a hall of mirrors. but it's also a necessary precondition is in his mind to keep in donald trump's good graces, which he sees clearly, power is more in principle. >> mr. sanford, when you look at something like that, especially the fbi and the doj, and it's been pretty heavy all day long for both those who are in elected positions and those who are big talkers on the right, what are they trying to do? what are they trying to say? >> i go back to what john says. the name of the game for all too many in politics is a game of self interest.

so, the name of the game, to john's point, for kevin, is, i want to be speaker, and i don't want to do anything that they struck that's my path to the speakership. and staying in donald trump's good graces, whatever that means, is, i think, paramount to his belief in that crime in that particular mountain. more importantly, though, what do you see at play is the continued degradation of the institutions that have held the american system in place. and that is the bigger danger. not whatever happens next, with regard to trump or not, but frankly, people's continued growing distress in the institutions that have been part of the fabric of our republic for tune as -- >> i'm going to get to him in a minute, elie, because i want to talk about something that's been on a lot of people's minds. and not just republicans. the fbi's integrity. there has been, in the past, there have been things that have come up in the recent past. i want to get to some of them. you had the peter strzok situation, who criticized trump as this investigation was going on. they found text messages.

you had comey's actions being called extraordinary, and insubordinate, according to one report. you've got the roles of the fbi and informants that went very wrong in michigan, with the plot to kidnap the governor there, and then the fisa court came out and said, when it came to carter page and the surveillance that the fbi conducted, they said it was outrageous. so you do have instances where people look at them and say, these things did happen. this is why. is that a fair idea? that look, there have been some things to question, and they should be able to question it. >> it is absolutely fair. people absolutely have the right to quit to size and question the justice department, the fbi, your local police. i think we need to keep in mind the big picture here. i can name more failures than that, there are many more. but there are tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of cases that doj and fbi and local prosecutors handle correctly,

actually, ethically, and effectively every day. where i draw a line and we are seeing here -- to stanford and johns points, where you are fomenting or encouraging act of resistance, resistance to law enforcement, we have seen where that can lead. civil unrest. and we know the code words. one of the january 6th committee has done very effectively is exposed it. they called the siren call. the other thing is, how do people think they know oh ready if this is a perfectly good search or a horrible search? and we see it both ways. i'm not saying it's equal. but you see republican saying, this is an abomination, this is a violation, and you see people saying, this is airtight and perfect. none of us know that. there are ten people in the world who maybe know that right now and all inside the oj are a courthouse. i think there's a lot of -- jumping to conclusions. >> there's a lot of speculation, john. i know you have -- it's particularly rough, i think, to see a party that prides itself and calls itself a law and order party,

demonizing law enforcement. i'm not so concerned about people saying defund the fbi, where members of congress. let's take the chat rooms out of this. let's talk about elected officials who have an obligation and who really ought to know better. it's about the degradation of our democratic institutions, about the weakening of the guardrail system systematically and cynically. that's where the danger comes in and that's what we are watching in realtime. >> you talked about the fact that there is this degradation going on. but you are hearing calls to action. not necessarily, i mean, you heard mccarthy, right? saying you better do some thing. but you're also hearing violent rhetoric that's coming off of that. because, unlined, there's a lot of that. but that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that led to january 6th. so how concerning is it when you hear some of that, coming from mccarthy, saying, democrats could do something, should rise up, this could happen to, you do you think there is going to be a violent fallout to this, ultimately? >> god, i hope not, as an

american. but this is what happens when you play with fire. history is real clear. we have been through far worse periods than this in our past. it's important to keep that in perspective. it's important to keep your sense of optimism. remember that the screens showers on the outer reaches of politics are comparatively small in number. we are get seniors is where people who hold elected office give credence to import fuel on the fire from that rarefied position. because then, people can start internalizing it and feeling like they have permission, that they're being encouraged. that's the story of january 6th. and here we are, within two years of that attack, and the learning curve seems to be close to zero. and that's where the danger comes. >> they've learned that it works to while up. and they are fundraising off of it. i do want to ask you, [inaudible] , the informant. we also heard this from fara, who was saying, i bet you, i put money on the fact that there is probably somebody who was pointing out that, hey, they have more than you think they have, more than they are

telling you. >> so there is this era of mystique, or mystery, are around the word informant. when you think of someone secretly providing information to the cops, it bubbles in the water, right. the reality is, informants or just people, most of the time, just like me and you. they are normal people. so, we have no idea who this person is. it could well be a run-of-the-mill staffer. and people provide information to law enforcement for all different reasons, some good, some, get bad, some a little bit above both. and i will tell you, the best that separates the best cops from -- from the rest, -- that's how you -- it's really not a surprise because of reporting earlier from tom foreman saying that mar-a-lago is 100 rooms. and these are glitzy rooms with all sorts of chandeliers, and closets, and all that. they would still be searching that today. and i mean that not hyperbolically. they would still be searching that today if they did not know where to look. so, it's not at all surprising

that they had specific information, look, here, got what they needed and we're out in a few hours. >> we have one more thing to talk about, and that's the case that's here in new york. the former president sat down although his children have talked, he pled the fifth. what does that say because in a civil case, it's different. i will go to you, elie. it's different in a civil case when you plead the fifth. but this is a -- war does it mean? >> practically, technically, legally, that can be used against donald trump in a civil case. you can stand up in front of a civil jury, if laetitia james, the attorney general, does bring a civil lawsuit, and say he took the fifth, jury, you are entitled to assume the worst. you you can't use that against a person in a criminal case, period. it's not quite right for people to say only guilty people take the fifth. trump said that. years ago. he's wrong. and people say to even today, a little bit glibly. it's not true, it's not the way our constitution is built. sure, plenty of difficulty people take the fifth. innocent people who are only accused take the fifth. people who commit crime well,

maybe they don't know, they are being investigated, they can take the fifth. trump has that right but we have the public also have the right to say that that is a historic blight for a former president to put himself in that situation. >> all right, elie honig, mark and john, it's always an interesting conversation with you gentlemen. please stick around. just ahead, charges by the justice department in an alleged iranian plot to assassinate former national security adviser john bolton. and he is not the only former trump administration official said to be targeted. the details on that, coming up. ney with the safe driver discount just by having a clean driving record for three years. get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. (driver 3) come on! ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ ♪ my relationship with my credit cards wasn't good. i got into debt in college and, no matter how much i paid, it followed me everywhere. between the high interest, the fees... i felt trapped. debt, debt, debt. so i broke up with my credit card debt and consolidated it

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>> welcome back. we're learning the murder plot made public today against former trump national security adviser john bolton is only one of several recent threats against u.s. officials by a member of iran's islamic revolutionary guard. today, the doj announced criminal charges against a member of our land scarred who tried to orchestrate bolton's assassination. the suspect also, as a legendary, tried to pay an undercover informant to assault -- former secretary of state mike pompeo. that suspect is still at large tonight. u.s. officials believe these threats are retaliation for the west killing of -- in january 2020 during the trump administration. iranian officials deny any involvement. our next guest followed

iranians revolutionary guard during his time in the fbi. phil mudd joins me now. phil, thanks for being here. >> sure. >> bolton was notified of this potential threat in 2020. then, the secret service, we no longer have them protecting him, and he wasn't granted secret service protection until 2021, and these documents come in 2022. why did the fbi go about it this way? was it the right way to do things? >> well, i'm not inside the investigation, but i'm looking at this saying, you just touched on one of the most fascinating things. that is timeline. if you're in the fbi watching this, you have threats to two senior u.s. officials, and more importantly, to u.s. citizens, you have to control the operation to ensure that there is no risk to those citizens. he would sacrifice the intelligence, sarah, if you thought there was an imminent

threat to pompeo or bolton. let's cut to the chase. the fact that this case has been running for a few years tells me that the fbi owned the case from the start. they had the confidential human source, the informant within the case. they're watching the case develop. the iranians thought they were running a case, and in fact, the fbi was managing the case from the outset, and the reason the fbi wanted everyone, the reason i think it was the right decision to let it run, if you're gonna take the case to court, you have to be able to say this wasn't just talk, it wasn't just bragging, these were people who had information about u.s. officials outlined in the indictment, willing to pay, willing to have conversations. the fbi wanted to let it run so that when they went to court, a defense attorney could not try the case to shreds. this is fascinating. the iranians never ran the case. the fbi did, sarah. >> let me ask you.

you've long looked at and had great knowledge of iran's revolutionary guard and how it works. what's the endgame here? if they were to assassinate a u.s. official, what are they expecting is going to happen? well why free? what are they doing? >> there's a couple things. the small and big. the most simple piece here is that we assassinated the head of the revolutionary guard. he's not just a general. like i was a legendary figure. if you're sitting in the seat of tehran, i can see them saying, if we're gonna take one of ours, we're gonna take one of their's. i think there's a bigger game afoot here that americans would struggle to understand. the revolution in iran is not old. that's 1979, meaning the people in power in iran where around during the revolution. who did they view as the biggest threat to the revelation? the americans. who are the biggest hard-liners among americans about iran?

mike pompeo is one. the former national security adviser john bolton is another. it's not just about a vengeance, it's about saying to americans, don't threaten our revolution. we know you want to overturn our government, and we will warn you about doing that. to me, someone who did this for decades, it's perfectly understandable, sara. >> considering what happened earlier with the installation of the shaw. do you think that we will ever see this suspect? another word, in your mind, a lot of people might say he's gonna be a ghost. >> i don't think ever. why would you? if you ever leave iran. i presume that's why he is now. that's not the sole pay -- point to running our case here. you might, say why are you african a charge and if he's never gonna leave iran? --

first of all we know if he's anyone else involved in the, case were not certain. second, and this is really interesting. if you are sitting, you can't move again. you can't go to europe, you can't go to a beach in the south of france, you can't go to germany, you can't go to latin america, you can't go to asia. the message is also to the iranian leadership and people executing the orders of iranian leadership. you can stay in iran forever, but if you ever want to leave that country, we're gonna get you. i think this is significant, and it's not only whether he gets pulled into a u.s. court. it's the message that says, you'll never travel again. >> phil mudd, thank you for your insight. >> thanks. >> coming up, trump supporters are furious about the mar-a-lago search. that's just one source of anger across the political spectrum. can anything be done to defuse things? that's coming up next.

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>> as you know, january 6th became a flash point for violence, politically fueled anger in this country. that rage has not disappeared. it shows up in other ways, once again, threatening violence. an example, less than 48 hours after the fbi searched mar-a-lago, threats another online rhetoric against the magistrate judge believed to sign the search warrant. one, commenter writes this: i see a rope around his neck. we are not naming him. the judge has also been boxed

and subjected to far more disgusting and violent comments than the one we just showed you. in response, an official government web page has removed the judges contact information. a number of republicans are determining that search, making outlandish comparisons and spreading conspiracies. >> this is what happens in places like nicaragua. were last year, every single person that ran against daniel arteta for president, everyone who put their name on the ballot is was arrested and is still in jail. that's what happens in places like that. >> this should scary bolivian daylight side of him american citizens. >> you really seem the ugly face of a tyranny. we have no idea whether or not they planted evidence. >> that is the former house speaker baselessly suggesting the fbi planted evidence.

to all this, add this. a long history of some current and former local law enforcement officials, militias, another citizens who have long wanted to see end for federal law enforcement. just last week, we got an earful from a former sheriff in the arizona who runs as chef unsophistication. you made this comparison about the role of the fbi after the january 6th attack. >> but what the fbi has done and the way they're going after people, and people are still sitting in prison without charges, and without trials, what they have done, oh my gosh. it proves that the fbi will do anything they're told. there are a bunch of nuremberg officers. they just follow orders instead of following proper law enforcement protocol. >> you just compared the federal bureau of investigation officers -- >> yes -- >> the rank and file -- >> yes -- >> to nazis. >> they just do what they're told.

>> john avlon and mark stanford are back, and we welcome -- to the conversation. that was difficult to hear. we did have a back and forth. once i brought that up, when you see nuremberg, you're talking about the massacre of 6 million jews. and he, said no no no, i didn't mean that, and i said, but you made the comparison, and he said, yeah, because they only follow orders. -- i will start with you, governor. what do you make of the things you just heard from people who are in the republican party and are currently serving i have been put in positions of power talking about the fbi in those terms. >> a lot of people out there still want to be relevant. listen, he's not a dumb guy. why do you like him or dislike him. >> the speaker of the house. >> he was speaker of the house. he has an amazing historical context in terms of understanding history. so it's just rough plus what he's saying. but he wants to be relevant. he's at the end of the game,

and the trump wave is on the bandwagon, a play along. i think it's unfortunate. it underscores the importance of all of us as regular citizens making out voices heard. at the end of the day, the political system is a responsive system. the people you see an office, they'll do what they need to do to hang on to power. but the drivers of the agenda, at the end of the day, are you and me, as regular citizens. that's four of us need to speak up and make a little more noise from the standpoint of sanity, for a change, because we need to get away from that. >> just in terms of what they've said, have they chosen the party in power over the country? >> yeah. welcome to politics one-on-one. >> but not everybody is doing that. >> i don't like it, i don't agree with it. all right now, we're living in an uber politicized environment, wherein people have circled the wagons. there's a red team in a blue team. i don't believe in it, i don't

think anyone on this panel bleep senate. but in terms of what's happening in the political world right now, that is what's going on. and so, that's why the founding fathers set up the system with checks and balances. didn't want to see people circling the wagon -- that's why george washington warned against factions, as he called them. political parties. that's the world we're living in. now >> maria, you want to jump in there. republicans have been particularly prone to this. not as much the democrats. they're not doing the exact same thing. not exactly the same. >> now. that's exactly right, sara. you are right, governor, when you said those leaders are saying these things because they want to be relevant. but why do they want to be reliant? what they're saying is for an audience of one. it's for donald trump. why is it for donald trump? because he is still the leader of the republican party, and they are speaking to his base, who they believe, and i don't

think this is correct, because they still believe that trump's extremist maga base is still a minority in this country. but they're loud, and they scare the jesus out of what normally would be common sense republican leaders who have now drink that kool-aid from that experience -- extremist base, we believe the only way to stay relevant is to say these outlandish things, which ten years ago, they would've been laughed out of any real relevant political circle. >> but some of the primaries have shown that those who are saying these things are winning in the primaries. republican primaries. i want i want to address, because we to address -- when it comes to militias, when it comes to citizens or former or current law enforcement that believe that the federal government should be abolished, and this has been a long-standing thing,, this didn't just happen now. >> so, you interviewed richard mac. >> yeah. >> and he's been a long sort of

standing sheriff avatar for the militia movement. and people who believe consistent with what's called sovereign citizen beliefs, the federal government doesn't really believe, the highest official dumb is the sheriff. there are a lot of problems with this, most particularly, reality. but the anti government impulse in american politics, of course, goes at least to the civil war and reconstruction. and then manifested, i think, on pretty consistent grounds, the same spirit of aggressive defensiveness that was used -- and [inaudible] shows in her book, field of blood, the victims they have to preemptively attack. and that's the justification that the so often used. what's fascinating and i think important get perspective on is, i think, the anti government movements in america that event particular violent -- that have been violent, and the late 1960s, there was a lot of anti government violence, it was mostly from the left. >> the bombings. >> bombing all over this country. >> they were not remotely affiliated with the democrat party. they were protesting the

vietnam war and they had their own rhetoric of race and class struggle and whatever. in the late 1990s, culminating at a time -- when we had oklahoma city, we saw militia movement, christian nationalism, and then -- after oklahoma city, it dissipated for time. it's grown enormously in reaction to the election of barack obama think continued under donald trump. people better than you and i know about the oath keepers and so on. these groups said they were formed to stop a tyrannical governments from taking over, but then rallied around a president who is head of that government. >> that's exactly. right >> that's the dynamic that's so troubling. that's when these groups become paramilitary organizations dedicated to a person. that's what's different. >> what's interesting is the fuel behind. they are just a lot of people on the right to have gotten tired of the promises of many on the right. we are going to limit government, we are going to limit government. it keeps going, it keeps growing. >> [inaudible] >> i know, but that's the base of the fuel that started it. because people -- >> i disagree, i disagree completely.

i think what is fueling it is what donald trump did when he first announced for president, using those extremist views, those politics of resentment, the hatred, the bias sees, that's what he uses as fuel for that fire. he continues to use it and republicans are following him in that path. >> john, said -- he's giving him license. we will end on that for. now stick around everyone, it's not exactly a scene out of ellis island. the republican governor of texas is buzzing more migrants to new york city with no return ticket. how the democratic mayor of the big apple is responding to this, next.

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but they just specifically targeted new york. >> but abbott says migrants are traveling willingly and he sent a copy of the consent waiver that travelers are asked to sign. take a look at that. it only-less washington d.c. and new york city as available destinations. both cities say the influx of people's overwhelming agencies. let's discuss this with john avlon, mark sanford and maria cardona. i'm going to start with you, governor. i want to talk with you about, what is this? why is this happening? what is the point that abbott is trying to make? >> he's trying to make, again, another cardinal rule of politics is that all politics are local. tip o'neill had that saying. it's true, 4000 immigrants a day are coming across the border of texas. and to give new york a little taste of what they have experience and in texas, it's 100 votes, again, we are talking 100, versus 4000 a day. i don't think it's a big deal.

i think it's great politics. i think for texas standpoint, it will play very, very well for a bit. i think it could make it a touch more real for folks saying, we are a sanctuary city, but maybe we are not so sanctuary because you don't -- texas. >> i think what you are hearing from adams is that we are overwhelmed. what are your thoughts on this? >> i think what abbott is doing is cruel. mayor adams is right about that. it is inhumane. it is using migrants to be a political football to play these political games. it is insulting as an immigrant myself. this is a governor that not just does not understand the issue of immigration and what actually needs to be solved how to solve it, but he doesn't care. he has no idea or willingness to figure out how to really resolve this for texas. texans. it is a waste of texas taxpayer money. it is not on the path for a real solution. i commend mayor adams and my mayor, d.c. mayor bows, or for

welcoming these immigrants and for doing what they should be doing with the federal government needs to do, which is to actually adjudicate their asylum cases if there are those cases and then to figure out what to do in terms of court cases, if they can stay, if they need to go -- we need changes to our immigration system. and we wish that republicans could join democrats to make that happen. >> that is the real issue here, right? this is the politics unfolding, masquerading as policy. >> you want to talk about sanctuary cities and the roots? largely, it was a public health issue. if you have undocumented immigrants ready to come forward, that is a major public health issue going back to when these things were started. the larger point is this. to many politicians would rather demagogue this issue then actually take steps to solving it. and we know with a broad outline would be. folks on the far left and far-right would not like it. we can come to the green meant, strengthen the border, is the path to citizenship and reduce the burden that cities and states are dealing with when they're feeling overwhelmed. so, how about we stop demagoguing this issue and starting with it? >> but in fairness, again, i

was in the political process for 20 years of my life. it was talked about for all 20 years. and it's one point, people are like, we have to try something else. i mean, i get where abbott is coming from. 4000 people a day coming across the border. >> it's now an excuse to use human beings for that kind of political football. >> it is a de facto open border -- >> it is not an open border. that is a republican maga talking point that is just untrue. and -- >> you think 4000 people a day is [inaudible] >> it goes to do more harm than good because it fits people against each other instead of really trying to come together for a solution. democrats have a solution on the table. republican said no. >> ultimately, though, you have had democrats and republicans in power, as you have said, for many decades. this issue has not been fixed, solved, even impacted in a big way. >> again, we had to build it around a decade ago, that republicans could not pass [inaudible] a rug candor -- >> that's what i was talking about. >> if you really want to do the

genealogy on this stuff -- >> but they really did lose that seat and -- >> no, i think that was actually -- that was overhyped. look, people right now, you see sometimes saying, look, record apprehensions at the border. missing the word apprehensions. right? we do have border enforcement. >> that's right. more than you would [inaudible] >> we need to find ways to bring people out of the shadows and we need to do all of the above. and the activists won't like it. but the let's actually start, we know what to do. >> [inaudible] the dreamers, right? >> absolutely. and >> that's one most people can agree on and yet we are not there. >> they can't use them. >> all right john avlon, maria cardona and mark sanford. thanks so much for this lively conversation. we will be right back. her skin was better, she was more active. if i can invest in her health and be proactive, i think it's worth it. visit betterforthem.com why hide your skin if dupixent has your moderate-to-severe eczema, or atopic dermatitis under control? hide my skin? not me.

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thank you so much for hanging with me, i will be back tomorrow night, but now you get the greatest. laura coates sitting in for don lemon tonight. i know you're digging deeper on all the twists and turns happening with the former president, and that show begins right now. hey, laura. >> i want there to be a forever mean, sarah sidner, the actual greatest just referred to me that way. i can die happy now. thank you, sis, nice to se