u.s. holocaust memorial museum here in washington, d.c., which was created 30 plus years ago by the u.s. government to remember that happened during the holocaust. if you don't remember god forbid it could be repeated. so i took a tour with sarah bloomfield. and all the people who work at the museum are amazing, really hard working, devoted. and all those involved in founding and creating the museum deserve a lot of credit. millions of people have turned the museum. it's really important. i wanted to take our viewers on a tour, and so i walked around. watch this exchange i had with sarah bloomfield, the museum director. we are speaking about the shoes, the shoes that are on the exhibit at the museum. watch this. >> these are shoes, old shoes? >> this is one of the most iconic visits.

if you visit these killing centers today, you'll see thousands upon thousands of shoes like this. the shoes of the victims. the german took their shoes because they were going to reuse them and recycle them if you will. but of course the victims would be killed. this is what's left of those lives. >> reporter: these shoes are here and the only surviving elements where all those people who were exterminated. >> this is the trace of the people before they were gassed. >> reporter: i think of those shoes, you know, my four grandparents. we didn't have anything. we had nothing. it was just horrendous, horrendous situation. it was so important, so timely to remind people who don't know anything about it. >> and i think it's so important and i'm sure you'll agree, jim. people who come to visit

washington go to the washington mall. take a tour of this museum. even those of us who have grown up, children of holocaust survivors, we learn a lot every time we go there, and it is so important and so important. >> i've been, i plan to go back. wolf blitzer, it's great to have you on. wolf blitzer's special report, never again the united states holocaust memorial museum airs tonight on cnn at 11:00 eastern time. news continues, so let's hand it over. i called you the great laura coats, the super great laura coates tonight. >> reporter: and i don't know, but i think of you, jim. thank you so much. and i'm glad everyone knows at 11:00 p.m. tonight right after this that documentary will show with wolf blitzer. i am laura coates and this is cnn tonight. and now i know frankly you have already seen the big headlines. the affidavit we've all been waiting for, it's here. i mean yes, the search warrant affidavit to search donald

trump's mar-a-lago estate is out and it says 184 classified documents including some that were top secret will recover from january. now we've seen this headline and we have gone through parts of it, but tonight we're learning more and more of the why. why federal investigators believe that there was more. why they needed to search the place in that way. now i'm not here simply to rehash the headline and frankly i heard it nine hours ago. i want to go beyond it. and i want to really understand what's in that document and what is not in what where she been shown in these 38 pages. and i also want to know who it matters to and for what reason. we keep hearing about this entire thing and it's really just this affidavit as some kind of an inkblot test. so we're going to approach that little bit differently tonight. i'm going to look at it at this affidavit and more of a different lenses. kind of like the inkblot. what are you seeing verses this

person. we'll break it down collectively. first we start with the facts as we always should. everyone is on the same page and we know exactly what is here. now i'll talk to three journalists who have been steeped in this since day one. we'll go and parch through the facts line by line. things like this line, just how top secret were these 184 documents for example. i mean you see this excerpt here. a lot of acronyms i admit in alphabet city, washington, d.c. it means the documents had indications that contained human source intelligence in them. national defense intelligence and more. we're going to dig into what that really means. and what does the justice department mean when it says there are, "a significant number of civilian witnesses?" what did they know? what is the context, and how did they help this investigation? for a president, he can't

possible be taking this well. and then after our journalists, i'm going to talk to our legal and investigative pros. they're on this set right now. they've got their copies of the affidavit. we're going to see what they think of and what goes through their minds and how it went through their expert eyes, and how they look at a line like this one. "there is also probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction will be found at the premises." do they think there was enough probable cause? we're going to break it all down. and then of course, there's this. not just the 38 pages and all the words that are there, but let's focus on a single letter. the little e you see there. that's a specific part of the espionage act and a detail that we didn't know about before. and what it could mean for trump and his allies. we're going to delve into that.

and after that i'm going to talk about politics and a look at how this might all come out in the wash. >> this is a political attack on our country, and it's a disgrace. and the people understand it. >> do they? how are the voters allow the people understanding it and viewing it? i've got three politics pros to break it down for us, but let's just admit this so far is like the biggest puzzle piece that we've gotten so far into the search warrant. we've received it with a lot of information, but to date this is the biggest puzzle piece. and now i want to talk specifics about what it tells us and the overall picture that it now creates. and most importantly what it means. let's go to our three top reporters. jessica snyder and cnn national correspondent christian holmes, and politico senior reporter kyle cheney. i'm so glad to see you all here. we have been waiting for this information although it's redacted, there is a lot there.

kyle, let me begin with you here because now we know the tally of classified info just in those january boxes, right? 184 classified documents, 67 confidential, 92 secret, 25 top secret, and what's more some of these docs had an alphabet soup marking on them. what was so alarming to the investigators about this? >> well that alphabet soup you described gave us the best sense of why the justice department took this as seriously as they did. hcs human source intelligence, you know, people out there risking their lives to get an intelligence team into the united states are in this information sitting in an unsecured basement essentially. things like special intelligence. things that are gathered from far and intercepts. again some of the most highly classified and protected secrets of the u.s. government has, sitting in a box somewhere,

mixed in with other materials, personal items. things that have nothing to do with this kind of personal information. again that's the 15 boxes given back to the archives in january. that's not including what was discovered there. subsequently when the doj went to visit and then in the search. they not only were alarmed by what they received voluntarily back in january, but they discovered more information. and so presumably it's even more alarming than that. >> that's a really important point we have to underscore. this is information in the affidavit before they executed the search warrant. this is what they were using to justify the search that had we heard about two weeks ago. a major point that was redacted. some contained classified, ndi, and presidential records that remain at the premises. and of course they were right

about it. they got a dozen more boxes on august 8. even though on june 3, the dates are in order on june 3. christina baum, who was trump's attorney said all classified documents were returned. maybe potential charges here knowing that timeline? >> it gives a lot more details as to what investigators were building on. because remember we saw it in the search warrant application that was released recently that investigators are specifically focusing on three different criminal statutes that include willful retention of national defense information. concealment of the government records, and obstruction. what we're seeing now is the unredacted parts of the affidavit to really give us the glimpses of how investigators are building their case on all three of those. so we see how extensive the classified information was that they retrieved in january and how was in this willful detention. and several times to obstruction

saying these investigators believe, in fact, they would find evidence of obstruction at mar-a-lago when they serve that search warrant. and then concealment of the records. you know, that's seen in the back and forth with the archives, trump's team. the fact they weren't relinquishing this material. and then you mentioned june 3. that's when trump's lawyers signed. there was no more information at mar-a-lago, which we obviously know wasn't true because of the search warrant and what was taken then including 11 sets of classified documents. so the question is does that letter play any part in this obstruction or concealment criminal statute? so a lot of questions here, but we're getting a bit more information as to the underlying information tonight in the affidavit. >> so important to think about and the idea of that certification saying there is nothing else here. and then having these boxes removed even after the search warrant. kristin, to you. i mean the doj mentions this as they are trying to protect civilian witnesses.

they've got all these redactions. how do you think trump's people are seeing this? this idea of all of the redacted information, but it's covering up likely the names of people who have been instrumental in providing probable cause basis? >> well laura, this idea and focus on witnesses in a potential mold or mole has been something floating around trump world since the church. did somebody flip? how did the fbi know exactly write to go? i cannot tell you how many people have pointed the finger at me saying it has to be this person and that paranoia when you work for trump or around him. underneath that i want to point out one thing that where she reported federal investigators talked to a number of aides down at mar-a-lago including molly michael, the point of contact for the national archives. among others who went down from the white house. so underneath all of that finger pointing, there is somewhat of an understanding that those

aides' names are probably going to be in the document. and there is a lot of questions about whether or not there was somebody or multiple people who flipped, who gave a lot of information specifics or if this was some sort of culmination of these interviews with aids that we know what happened at mar-a-lago. kyle mentioned this, how there's a lot of discussions about the classified documents being found among just regular documents. could be completely unfolderred, unidentified in the midst of personal correspondence as well as photos and letters. and i spoke to a number of former trump staffers both from the white house and from mar-a-lago who said they were not at all surprised to hear this because of trump's poor recordkeeping. that he was known to walk around the white house or mar-a-lago, pick up boxes, go through, rifle through, move from one box to another without any sort of reasoning behind it. that he also was known to pick

up important records, documents, and write on them. even though aides told him not to. and i had one source point out to me that he was always showing off some of these presidential records including those love letters with kim jong un. essentially another example here of how there was no real system in place. nobody actually watching what was going on here. so again they were not surprised to see that. laura? >> kyle, cheney, christian holmes, thank you so much. jessica, i'll see you here after the break. it's astonishing to think about. it's one thing to talk about alphabet city and alphabet soup. but to think about all of this being mixed together as if each thing does not mean something in terms of the classification is truly stunning. we are just getting started as we examine the impact of this affidavit. we'll go through the paperwork, with the fbi, and the doj veterans. we'll examine the legal exposure for donald trump who one ally says, "really needs a competent defense attorney." that person's name, captain

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all right, so one thing had the redacted yet revealing affidavit does not do is point the finger directly at donald trump and alleged specifically that he committed a crime. it doesn't accuse frankly anyone of actually committing a crime. that's not really how affidavits work though in probable cause findings. we do know the former president and his legal team huddled earlier this week at his new jersey golf club. it wasn't necessarily to hit the links. some of his allies are telling us they're concerned about what's in the affidavit. one of those allies says trump, "really needs a competent defense attorney even more so now." which suggests he maybe doesn't have one at the moment. let's talk about the potential legal fallout of all of this. not only is she a reporter, but she's also a lawyer, which is why we like her so much.

of course, we also have elliott williams and former fbi peter struck. we like you too. anyone who is not on board. and fyi, don't feel so badly about it. but peter, first of all, you have obviously overseen a number of investigations. you know how this looks. you know how there's been a lot of backlash. but then is this kind of vindication that they were able to find things? the affidavit sells, hey, here is what we were looking for. they didn't have a whole black line, redacted memo for the entire theme. this is some form of vindication and why this took place? >> i don't know if i would call it that, but the confirmation that the doj and fbi are doing things exactly right. they're doing things in accordance to the law and within the books. when you hear what's unredacted, it's a really disturbing tale. keep in mind half of this, 18 pages are completely blacked out. so the things investigators are looking at, the real critical items that show people trying to

obstruct. they show why they still think there is classified information there. we don't know what's there because that's still redacted. >> the second number, it's a line that's nestled on the first page. but they referenced a number of documents once on page five. it debunks this idea that number one they hadn't adequately or effectively planned or prepped or prepared for this before they swept in and did a raid on mar-a-lago. one disgruntled may at mar-a-lago that picked up the phone to call the fbi. but the justice department and the fbi had spent a significant amount of time building evidence before they even got in the door of mar-a-lago. >> which makes sense, right? when you think about it, i mean you don't have a probable cause finding that a judge is going to say oh former president, you've got one witness, great, bring the person in. >> and not only to peter's point did the doj do things by the

book here, but they gave significant details to his legal team. it goes through this timeline even more in depth than this affidavit. the fact that the national archive referred this to the justice department in february. and then it was sort of sat on until mid may when the fbi was finally able to go through those boxes and see just how highly classified the materials was inside. they're going back and forth with trump's lawyers, giving them the opportunity to cooperate and give this back. >> and that office back and forth supports the idea of the obstruction of justice charge. because they were put on notice that they have these documents, asked multiple times, and the justice department to turn them over. >> and also what took so long? how much do you give? i mean i know the former president, but there's that phrase, no one above the law. i don't know the average civilian that gets to have a

back and forth and back and forth when i think i know what you want. >> it takes time because at the archives they needed to get it back and once they did, they had to look at it and figure out there was stuff that was potentially classified. going back and forth about whether that information could be shared or if they needed a subpoena. what sticks to my mind is that the june meeting down between the department of justice and trump's attorneys where they tell him look, you do not have a place at mar-a-lago that is certified and legally could be stored to store classified information. they followed that up with a letter two days later and the attorneys wrote that letter. on the one hand you see doj being cautious, but what they are also doing is papering the record to show you can't do this, it's against the law, and we're telling you. not once, not twice, but multiple times. >> the lawyers were responding to say what they did have and what they did not have and

saying nothing else is here. low and behold the receipt that came from that search on mar-a-lago indicated that they actually had more there. i want to go into a little bit of this, elliott. hidden with the affidavit, we're going to come in with this as well, jessica. the lower case e that's hidden. lawyers at the table who say turn your table, the little e. that's the focus here. it's 793e and relates to the espionage act saying the code doesn't use the term classified information. it doesn't mean the mishandling though declassified docs could also be a crime? >> right. and we've gotten on this classification and declassification train that somehow if the president had declassified these documents therefore they would have been no crime committed. and that is simply not accurate. now look there's a number of other problems and regulations when you mishandle sensitive classified information. but nearly having certain documents in your possession is a criminal offense. that's what they are getting

here. >> and i know oftentimes the government is accused of overclassified everything. prosecutors could get a ham sandwich. and actually they actually go through a variety of different topics here. >> some of the people i have spoken with who routinely have or in the past have dealt with this type of information, they've been appalled when this came out today just how highly classified this information was that was sort of hazardly thrown around in boxes at mar-a-lago. you're talking about information that implicates human sources that are operating around the world. if that information gets out, they could be targeted, they could be jailed, they could be killed. so yes, this was extremely sensitive information in many different realms. >> you've handled this information, peter. i mean you're talking about it. can you imagine a post-it note here, a calendar here, and then classified highly sensitive information there?

>> not at all. it's a sensitive compartment information. and the control system. this is dealing with human sources at a level that you might be able to not only know what they're reporting on, but in the hands of the wrong person say in china, in russia, in cuba. they could figure out who is providing that information, go out, round them up, shoot them, you know, imprison them for life would be the worse case. glue but this is handled at the most restricted. >> and a number of us around the table have had security clearance before. it can't be said enough what the words top secret means. top secret documents weren't even the most sensitive documents. top secret means if it were to be disclosed it could cause, "exceptionally grave harm to u.s. national security." that's a big deal. you're not talking about someone's social security number or background information. these are actually important national security documents. >> and to your point everyone, i hope people realize the human in

the human sourcing information. and this could be foreign assets as well. so you could think about what our global understanding is at a time when just two years ago we were talking about trying to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the global community. stick around everyone, jessica, peter, elliott, thank you so much. look, we're going to move to the political impact for trump and the investigation he claims is entirely political. does the affidavit disprove that notion? that's rhetorical. that's next. ♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪ joe biden and democrats in congress just passed a law that lowers costs for healthcare,

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all right, we talked about the legal fallout so far. so now to the political fallout from today's blacked out bombshell. donald trump and his defenders are talking more about persecution than prosecution. they say the whole thing is political, which we've heard this trend before. even the spokesman tweeted, "the release of the heavily redacted overtly political affidavit only proves that the biden administration is desperate to cover up their unprecedented, unnecessary, and un-american raid against president donald j. trump." and so is this how their argument will look as trump maybe ponders a 2024 run? let's talk about it now with former democratic senator doug jones, alice who works for the gop senator ted cruz, and from the national review. glad to have you all here.

look, we've heard in many ways as yogi bear would say deja vu all over again. i mean it's a 38-page document. obviously the length doesn't dictate whether it's political or not. but in going through it, it does not ring political. you've been a u.s. attorney. what is your thought? >> there is nothing in there that's political. not one sentence, not one word, not one period, comma, whatever. there's nothing in that document that is political. it is standard fair, it is setting forth some pretty serious allegations. it gives the statute, it gives the classification. it really sets forth a document. there is nothing in there that would indicate political. by the way anybody who has done any federal criminal work or any state criminal work that had has ever been involved in a high-profile or even a low-level public official. the defense stays political and

political. but you know i mean some of them are. but if someone has committed a crime, it really needs to be prosecuted. >> yeah. we're not here yet with the prosecution, you obviously know. but sort of the talking point will be, fine. this is the feeling. you've got 38 pages of one. so you're raising your target even in the first place is that. is that what the talking point is? >> yes, me personally, i think donald trump should not have these documents. he did not store them properly. ignorance is not a defense and there should be consequences. even carl rove who is a fan of trump said he should not have these. it's a violation of the presidential act. but there's the other facet of the republican party. many view him as the victim. they look at what the doj and the fbi have done as going after him as a prosecutorial witch

hunt. they look at this 38-page document. two-thirds of it is redacted. while they do respect covering up for sources and methods, they say a lot of this heavily redacted material is a way to avoid transparency. they say they are doing bidding for the democratic party. many republicans who were ready to turn their backs on trump and look for someone else in 2024 now view him as a victim and they are ready to get on board and support them. >> and the idea here and, in fact, you mentioned ignorance, alice. a part of the ignorance, you tried it if you're talking about the narrative, you want to capitalize on what you don't know what the electorate might not know. maybe he does declassify. president biden came out to talk about the notion you can declassify in a blanket way. listen to this. >> the fact he classified all the documents. >> i just want to know i

declassified everything in the world, i'm president, i can do it all. [ inaudible ] >> it depends on the document and it depends on how secure. >> i mean for him home is like upstairs to be fair, not mar-a-lago. >> i actually don't disagree with what the president said, i'm not sure if it was wise for him to engage on this level to begin with. this is such a delicate question. even if the law does call for having done this search of a former president's home. i think it reasonably raises all sorts of questions and the president should keep as much of it at arm's length, the sitting president, as he can. and are there other questions involved in this? i think it will become harder and harder to make any argument for trump on the possession of these documents. it just seems to be a slam dunk case that that was government

material. and now the question of whether he should be prosecuted for anything that's related to that. that's a different question. that'll affect the politics of this. and what you're going to see a lot is a word that i have not seen tonight. hillary clinton. >> the arguments are going to be this is not an even handed application of justice. sure, it was foolish for them to say it's not overtly political. but if some people, hillary clinton gets slaps on the wrist for mistreatment of classified material for the recklessness with national security, people who support trump or people who are just sympathetic to him or maybe he's not even a good guy. >> yes, that's persecution, and you don't disagree with that at all from the political side.

that's the one thing that is just true and no disrespect. everybody is making this about trump, trump, trump. it's really about the documents, documents, documents. it's about national security. what we see from this document is that the fbi and the national archives spent a lot of time trying to get these documents back. clearly the fbi looked at these documents that were classified and saw there was a problem, continued to work to try to get these documents back. but that's an important point that had been made. the fbi clearly looked at the documents that contain in those 15 boxes and saw there was some serious issue they i had to work on. we need to be talking about this. there may not ever be a prosecution of this case. that would be fine if there was none. but getting these documents back was very serious and needed to be done. >> yes, i read the affidavit. the big thing is to get these documents. >> we'll talk more about this.

stick around. i want to talk about what the voters actually think about this because that's part of what's happening in the public electoral opinion. a lot to think about in the next 74 days and even beyond donald trump's impact. coming up how candidates are changing their message to try to meet the moment. that includes the republican senate hopeful, strict views against abortion next.

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all right, the old pre-september shuffle with 74 days left until the midterms. some are trying to shift their message to appeal to a broader electorate outside the primary. blake masters who is now softening his position on abortion. the 36-year-old scrubbed his website of support from a federal person hood law and other strict anti-abortion restrictions. abigail spanberger is leaning into abortion rights with a new ad. take a listen. >> first chairing the supreme court decision overturning roe v. wade. saying women can't get pregnant from rape. but >> back with me now is doug jones and alice allison. glad to have you all here. look, we're talking about in

many respects this big news today of the affidavit and seeing all the information. the shadow of donald trump looms pretty big. but there's the midterm elections 77 something days away. i'm sure they would want to talk about anything, but trump. when you look at this what is this messaging scrubbing really about? is it prudent? what are your thoughts? first of all trump is not on the ballot in november. that's a talking point the democrats would love to tout, but he's not on the ballot. and the democrats would love nothing more than to talk about anything, but inflation, recession, high prices, and inflation mare factors across the board. abortion when on the ballot and specifically in new york. when that's the single issue and a candidate in 19 made that the sole focus, it does galvanize

people. abortion was a galvanizing issue. when we move the next 74 days, republicans are going to look at the real issues that everyday americans across this country are concerned with and that is the pocketbook issues, the kitchen table issues, the economy, and inflation. republicans are going to focus on that, focus on what we are currently seeing with inflation and a bad economy. but the more the democrats continue to spend, like we just did with the inflation act. and the more the democrats spend against more fuel for republicans. >> you say spend, but biden would say success. that's his s word. >> i agree. trump is not on the ballot, but he's definitely looming in every election and endorsing candidates and his endorsement has actually helped a lot of election deniers be on the ballot, which is dangerous in and of itself. but i would say these candidates that are scrubbing their websites from their stance on

abortion. maya angelou says you need to hold people to account. just because you took something off the internet doesn't mean it's real. you better believe if masters gets into as a senator of arizona, he will push to try and make a federal ban on abortion. he said it before and he would do it again and voters know that. i think they're running scared. republicans, they did a lot of work for the 50 years to ban roe. and now they did an overreach. the court did an overreach and voters are going to come out. it's not just women. it's not just young people, but independ voters. this is an issue that we know over 60% of americans support the right to choose. it might not literally be on the ball the lo, but ballot, but it's a part of the everyday life. >> when you look at everything, he's on the ballot, there's no question about it in most states and at least in the critical races.

and i invite the american public to talk about the economy and to talk about things. and because the thing that the american public want is somebody working for them, doing something that they may not agree on everything, but they want to see action taken. they want to see people out there trying to talk about it. there is not a single republican candidate for the united states senate that has a plan. that has talked about how to reduce gas prices, which are coming down dramatically. which talks about growth in our economy. which talks about historic jobs and how they're going to match that if they get elected. at least this administration and the democrats are giving the american people something that they can sink their teeth into, they want to see people doing some things in action, and you couple that with a contrast of republicans who want to ban books, who have adopted cancel culture, who have decided women should not be able to choose, that a bunch of folks in state capitols can do that for them. i think that contrast is growing a lot. >> yes, they agree with everything that you're saying.

>> there is one little thing with all due respect to the fine senator. look, democrats are going to have a real difficult time when this inflation reduction act, which is a new thing, but reducing inflation doesn't follow through with that. why is it that joe manchin and other democrats have been sort of asked by reporters and the people when are we going to see our inflation reduced? no one has an answer. when people realize that, they're going to see they were sold on this. >> tell that to the seniors who have a $2,000 cap. tell that to medicare recipients who are going to see prices come down. tell that to the young folks who for the first time ever we are investing in climate with good paying jobs that can do that. it is not going to have an inflation reduction in the immediate future. but people want to see reactions, they want to see people acting forth. >> and i would also say it's not just because they want to see people acting, but i think the american people also understand that its republicans are preventing more from actually happening. and so not only are they saying we don't want a woman's right to choose, but we don't want to

help you. we don't want to cap insulin. we don't want gas prices to go down. we want to give corporations tax breaks. and when you put that contrast together that everyday american and my hometown of youngstown, ohio know that they might not agree with everything, but it's democrats that are going to fight for them and try to improve the quality in life. >> republicans also didn't want to pay off student loan debt for people. >> that's another whole segment. >> people who worked hard to have no college debt now have college debt. >> some. but you know what, their idea of incrementalism will probably fit into all of these conversations. it's the idea, the old sort of curse of politics. have you done enough? is it too little? is it too much? we'll see in november. doug, alice, and ashley, thank you so much. look a much different debate ahead. you know the miranda warning, right? you could recite it. you watched every law and order marathon, every what, new year's day and sunday too? anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. but what about before someone

gets arrested? what if those words are actually in rap lyrics? the legal battle against two star rappers, a part of the conversation tonight next.

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so here's a question you're probably not here anywhere else, could wrapping about a crime ultimately get you convicted about the crime?>> they are thinking about it, handing the case against the rappers, young followed -- young thug and gonna. she said she might use lyrics from the ysl collective record label to help prosecute the case. this is controversial, it's been going on and used for decades but is there? let's have the conversation now, so rights attorney and temple university professor, timothy welbeck, welcome to the program. glad to have the conversation with you.>> thank you for having me and thank you for having the time to have this conversation. >> for many people, you might have are the indictments, i know you have, and thinking

about the old phrase, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law, they normally mean the course of an interaction with a police officer after he crime has actually occurred, or alleged to have occurred. is the practice, should it be fair, can it violate a constitutional or civil-rights notion?>> on his face, i generally discourage the practice, it leads to a first amendment violation potentially and it has a potential chilling effect on artistic expression. you had a reference to the miranda rights and as you suggested, dealing with direct interactions with law enforcement and what is said in those moments could be potentially incriminating and used in legal proceedings. artistic expression that one has used as a means to conveying their lived experience in the depth of their imagination is not something that you should suffer criminal liability for. >> one could possibly say, i did not confess to a crime, i

wasn't rapping my confession, it was my artistry at play and could be used, the retort, that you are just couching it in that language. to give first amendment protection to avoid criminality but is it a practice in terms of what they use, these are public statements. why do you think the das across the country have used this, why should they not be able to do so? >> the notion that everyone's going to claim it's an expression, artistic, it may will be a confession?>> that is a good question, on its face again, if an artist is delving into various creative expression, it should not impose some sort of criminal liability, we don't do this with any other form of art, we haven't taken stephen king into court and ask him give an account of the murders of his novels or films or some films that were adapted from his novels. and similarly speaking we should do this with hip-hop artist as well.

it's one thing if there lyrics signal information or knowledge of a crime that the only person who could have committed it would have known, that in of itself is a different set of circumstances, but blanket statements they are making in the course and scope of their lyrics is not something that prosecutors should be using in court. >> we should not overlook that we are looking at a particular genre of music, stigmatized as being violent and something that is oftentimes used to fuel existing stereotypes. and even to create new ones, even unjustifiably of course. do you think the stigma or the way in which people have traditionally come to understand over the course of these modern musical history, rap music, the shiner itself itself is on trial at times quite >> absolutely, genre has been on trial almost since the inception, is the point in which it entered into the mainstream populace of the attention that came with it,

people have found ways to stigmatize it in part because it leads to a broader narrative of black criminality, and it begins to paint narratives about young black men and women who are said to have a greater propensity towards committing crimes and other violent acts. so hip-hop as a culture and rap music as one of the forms of music and art that has inspired it, that we have, various conversations like this, particularly the long projected history of public relations campaigns and people trying to not only censor out, but also with isaac, but further, and this is a detrimental form of communication for the public.>> part of your work as a professor, you believe that infusing the lectures a time, with artistic expressions, and be a way that they can better understand the topic and issue. one more question on this point, it is a little bit striking about the very notion, are we seeing this with other forms of music? are we seeing this used with,

you mention stephen king for example but in other jurisdictions, legislation around trying to protect artists in this very thing, are we going to see a bit of a blueprint created all across this country?>> i certainly would hope so, i apply the legislation in california and new york that seek to limit the means in which we use rap lyrics to criminalize their subjects. and in particular, it is requiring prosecutors to meet the constitutional burden. if these prosecutors are successful they would deprive people of life, liberty and property. it requires due process according to the constitution, if you're using the rap lyrics, the evidence you are using is insufficient. >> a bird nest to be there, you can't use just anything, you seem like a criminal therefore you must've done this crime, unlawful propensity evidence. thank you professor timothy -- timothy welbeck, a fascinating conversation. >> thank you for having me, it was a pleasure. an fbi affidavit that is

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