the fairness of forgiveness. i'm michael smerconish in philadelphia. on wednesday, president biden announced his plan for student loan forgiveness. in the end, he cancelled $10,000 of debt for those earning less than 125,000, 20k for those recipients of pell grants, which by definition go to low income families. the decision sparked a passionate response, i think, akin to what followed the supreme court decision in dobbs which, of course, overturned roe versus wade. remember, a few weeks ago kansas voters rejected by an 18-point margin a referendum that would have made it possible to ban abortion in that state. further proof passion inspired by dogz came last tuesday when

one of the few remaining swing congressional districts new york's 19th went democratic. at least far moment in time, he was a snapshot of america's political mood. a swing district won by obama and then trump and then biden voted to send democrat pat ryan to washington. ryan ran on abortion right. his republican opponent focussed on the economy and crime. and now a midterm election that is just 73 days away and once seemed a fore gone conclusion, a republican takeover of the house and the senate, is much more uncertain. as jonathan weissman pointed out "the new york times" this week, republicans need just five seats to win the house. and their candidates are in strong positions to win the bulk of nine districts that mr. trump would have won easily two years ago if the new maps had been in place. seven of those nine seats do not have a democratic incumbent to defend them. here is another way to look at it. the nonpartisan cook political report rates 10 democratic seats as leaning toward or likely to

be republican against three republican seats that lean democratic. that works out to a republican majority. but for the first time since the fall of 2021, polling averages suggest a narrow majority of voters say they prefer democratic control of congress. so, how to now factor in student debt forgiveness. in this cycle both parties have issues that will motivate their base. for the republicans it's inflation, it's crime, it's the border. for democrats it's personal choice. and a growing list of administration achievements such as the inflation or climate bill despite divided government. gallop just revealed that president biden's approval rating reached a new high for the year, 44%. that's just after hitting a record low in july. but which side benefits from the cancellation of student debt? superficially you think it's the democrats. after all, 45 million people owe

1.6 trillion for student loans. that's more than any other consumer debt except mortgages. millions will be eligible for $10,000 in relief while far greater number, 27 million, will qualify for 20,000. that's a lot of voters. many of them, democratic. as nate silver pointed out in a pair of tweets, the thing about student loan debt relief is that while other policies would be more economically progressive, it fairly, efficiently redistributes well being toward people in the democratic coalition, youngish, middle classish, college grad school attendees, equal a very d group. it's a very transactional piece of public policy, directly serving the interests of the people who elected you. that's extremely common, though, in the same way that say the trump tax cuts were. ah, but will they vote? the center for information and research on civic learning and engagement at tufts reports that in 2020, 50% of young people

ages 18 to 29 voted in the 2020 presidential election. that was an 11% increase from 2016. that compares to 66.8% of all citizens who voted in 2020, according to the census. but, might the gratitude of debtors be outmatched by the anger of others? like that guy in 2020 who confronted elizabeth warren during a campaign stop in grimes, iowa. you remember? this father of a daughter whose tuition he paid wanted to know if he would get a refund if others got a bailout. >> i want to ask one question. my daughter is getting out of school. i saved all my money. am i going to get my money back? >> of course not. >> so your going to pay for people who didn't save any money yet those who did the right thing got screwed. >> no, it's not -- >> of course we did. my buddy and his son bought a car, went on vacations. i saved my money. he made more than i did. i worked a double shift, worked

extra, my daughter worked since 10. you're laughing. that's exactly what you're doing. we did the right thing and we get screwed. >> i appreciate your time. >> that angry dad in iowa has some interesting bedfellows these days. they include jason ferman, top economist for president obama who said the plan would, quote, unnecessarily provide tens of thousands of dollars to many high income households in a way that goes well beyond even what he, biden, promised in the heat of democratic primary when the problem facing the country was low inflation. not high inflation. and ohio democratic senate nominee tim ryan who said this, waving debt for those already out of trajectory to financial security sends the wrong message to millions of ohioans without a degree working just as hard to make ends meet. then there's the cost, "the wall street journal" opined as follows, this is an inflation expansion act. the reports say mr. biden will cancel 10 grand in debt for borrowers making 125,000 or less

a year. that would cost about 300 billion this year and 330 billion over 10 years says the penn warten budget model. that's far more than the 102 billion the inflation reduction act purportedly reduces the deficit over ten years starting in 2027. about 70% of the loan relief would go to borrowers in the top 60% of income distribution. it's probably not accurate to calculate the cost solely by how much debt is being forgiven, because that debt was probably not all going to be collected any way. more than 8 million people, 1 in 5, had defaulted on their loans before the pandemic. there's also the looming question of whether government is prepared to administer the relief that the president has promised. according to "the washington post," the education department already knows that 8 million of the borrowers qualify and will have their loans automatically forgiven. that means the remaining 35 million including pell grant recipients have to attest they

make less than $125,000 per year in order to apply. that could generate a cluster akin to the computer rollout of obama care and the fraud we now knew took place with ppp loans. my callers this week were passionate on both sides of the student loan debate. s. >> 1998 i borrowed $20,000 to go back and become a schoolteacher. i've never missed a payment. 23 years i've been paying them. okay? 5% interest. i borrowed 20, paid back over 55 and i still owe 13, michael. i feel like president biden just took me out from underneath a loan shark. >> my wife and i were able to get all three daughters through college without any debt. i voted for biden in 2020, but i'm not going to be supportive of undermining the people's sense of sacrifice and duty to

try to help their families improve. so i think it's undermining a lot of good values in america to forgive these debts. >> it's absolutely insane to me to hear somebody like that person that rolled up on elizabeth warren and sat there and go, i did everything right. i did everything right in my life. so everybody that thinks that somebody like a hand out to the wealthy can kiss my ass. >> i don't remember a recent political issue engendering the kind of passion i heard from my callers this week regarding student loans. that's beyond even our many debates about donald trump. if the passion is maintained, this issue will have significant impact in the midterm elections akin to abortion, inflation, crime and the border. but what we really don't know is whether that passion is going to more benefit republicans or democrats. this hour i want to know what you think. go to my website at

smerconish.com and answer this week's poll question. is president biden's student loan forgiveness fair? and what are your thoughts? tweet me at smerconish or go to my youtube or facebook page, reach out for me through social media. i'll read some throughout the course of the program. katherine what do we have? smerconish, the entire tax system isn't fair. there are perks all over the system. and you pick this one for the headlines, just stop it. well, paul, come on. it's the story of the week. was i supposed to ignore it? i would be derelict in my duty. you heard president biden's response to this on the south lawn, shouted a question from a reporter, how about all those who are very wealthy and get a tax break? i get it. the question i have is whether we're doing anything to address the fundamental nature of the problem here. in other words, what's this going to do to reign in the escalating cost of college? because that's what needs to be dealt with. still to come, duchess of sussex, meghan markle's new podcast just dethroned joe rogan from spotify's number one slot.

this comes just as markle's husband prince harry about to observe the 25th anniversary the death of his mother, princess diana. plus, editorial just published by "the new york times" warns if merrick garland indicts former president trump, it risks extreme reactions from trump supporters, even civil unrest. should that be a consideration? i'll ask the man who presided over trump's second impeachment, senator patrick leahy and see what he thinks. and secret service agents just seized 248 million in fraudulently obtained pandemic relief loans, but there's probably a couple hundred billion more to track down. i'll talk to the inspector general of the small business administration about what investigators are up against.

bubbles bubbles bubbles bubbles there are bubbles everywhere! as an expedia member you earn points on top of your airline miles. so you can go see even more of all the world's bubbles.

joe biden and democrats in congress just passed a law that lowers costs for healthcare, medicine, and energy bills by making corporations pay the taxes they owe without raising xes on any of us welcome to thursday night football, on prime video. let's go, baby! thursday night is now the prime night of football. let's go! a new era begins. the prime night of football. only on prime video. the lows of bipolar depression can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? what if you could let in the lyte? discover caplyta. caplyta is a once-daily pill, proven to deliver significant relief from bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and bipolar ii depression. and, in clinical trials, feelings of inner restlessness and weight gain were not common.

caplyta can cause serious side effects. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. in the darkness of bipolar i and ii depression, caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta, from intra-cellular therapies. discover theratears®. like no other dry-eye drop in the world. with the 5 vital electrolytes found in natural tears, theratears® is one-of-a-kind hydration that feels like silk. theratears®. a drop like no other™. finding the perfect developer isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found her. she's in prague between the ideal cup of coffee and a truly impressive synthesizer collection. and you can find her right now (lepsi?) on upwork.com

(lepsi.) when the world is your workforce, finding the perfect project manager, designer, developer, or whomever you may need... tends to fall right into place. find top-rated talent who can start today on upwork.com if you used shipgo this whole thing wouldn't be a thing. yeah, dad! i don't want to deal with this. oh, you brought your luggage to the airport. that's adorable. with shipgo shipping your luggage before you fly you'll never have to wait around here again. like ever. that can't be comfortable though. shipgo.com the smart, fast, easy way to travel.

the misuse of covid funds is being called one of the largest frauds in american history. friday, the secret service announced investigators had seized $286 million in pandemic relief loans obtained using fabricated or stolen employment and personal information. during the pandemic, more than $5.2 trillion in relief was districted to help the unemployed and bolster the u.s. economy. how much went to fraudsteres? we're still just starting to find out. but it's already in the high billions. the justice department has charged people with about 1 billion in fraud so far, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. the labor department's inspector general estimates that covid-related unemployment overpayments are at 163 billion and warns that figure is probably low. 1,500 people have already been charged by the federal government with defrauding

pandemic aid programs with more than 450 convicted so far. among them, a long island doctor who used pandemic aid to put a down payment on $1.7 million yacht, a georgia businessman who used a loan to purchase a $57,000 pokemon trading card and new york man fabricated employing 400 workers, bought a navigator, maserati and 12,000 square foot florida mansion. wait, there's more. a southern california man who was convicted of using identity theft to obtain $20 million in federal relief, one person obtained unemployment benefits from 29 different states, a postal worker got $82,900 in a loan for a business called, u.s. postal services. a former worker at california's unemployment agency was convicted of stealing $4.3 million in benefits using social security numbers she obtained working as a tax preparer.

another person got ten loans for ten nonexistent bathroom renovation businesses using the email address of a burrito shop. in 2020, a california rapper posted this music video on youtube called edd. that's the name of the state's unemployment benefits department. here he is bragging that he had gotten rich by submitting false claims. ♪ ♪ i got a shot at donald trump, swipe me a loan ♪ ♪ i got rich off ♪ >> he just pled guilty to mail fraud. now, in a related matter, and not one where there are allegations of fraud, there has nevertheless been a public outcry about the small business loans of millions to wealthy celebrities who employ workers many of which have been forgiven. including jared kushner, diddy,

nancy pelosi's husband paul, reese witherspoon and khloe kardashian and tom brady. that cost $953 billion the university of texas has estimated that 15% of ppp claims about 76 billion were fraudulent. and the government workers tasked with tracking these people down are overwhelmed, about 50 agents in a small business administration office are reviewing 2 million potentially fraudulent loan applications. there are 500 people working on pandemic fraud cases across the offices of 21 inspectors general, plus fbi, secret service, postal inspection service and the irs. in cases where the loans are for $10,000, it would cost the government more than $10,000 to investigate and prosecute. earlier this month, president biden signed bills extending the statute of limitations from 5 to 10 years for fraud involving the paycheck protection program and economic injury disaster loans.

>> my message to those cheats out there is this, you can't hide. we're going to find you. >> joining me now is han bell mike ware, inspector general for the u.s. small business association -- administration, pardon me. mr. ig, thank you so much for being here. i don't even know where to begin. how about this? what's the most extreme example of fraud, allegation of fraud, that you're investigating or are familiar with? >> well, first of all, thank you for having me. and what i can talk about only are cases that have already been tried. and one of those that's probably been the most egregious so far was the case -- the ezerian case where they used money claiming fictitious employees, fictitious businesses, hid money in their backyard and when convicted they fled. and we were able to apprehend them in montenegro.

that was pretty out there in terms of what we have been seeing. they had gotten over $18 million from the programs illegally. there was another case -- >> you saw this coming? >> yeah. >> please, tell me. tell me about the other case and then tell me if i'm right that you personally, you saw this coming. >> right. the other case was the case of the love and hip hop reality star who used the money to pay back child support buy extravagant cars and rolexes and all that. and the sentence was sent a message along with other things that he did. he received 17-year sentence. and in terms of seeing it coming, i definitely did. my office published -- we had two reports out before the first loan went out, before the program was even properly stood up. we had known from our experience in these programs that if you rely on self certification and

if you're rolling out a program they were asked to roll out in just a couple days, ended up being 14 years worth of lending out the door in just 14 days, we knew what would be coming. so we were asking them on the front end to set up a proper control environment so that i'm not caught in a pay and chase model that i'm in currently. >> do you have the resources that you need to do the job? i ask the question because you know there's controversy about the irs now about to get 87,000 new agents and people are saying, arguing as to whether that's a good or a bad thing. i can't imagine anybody arguing about whether it would be a good thing to give more resources to an inspector general like you to go after ppp fraudsteres. do you have what you need? >> well, currently no, but i can say that probably nobody does. for us, it's -- for me it's

never been about whether or not i had enough. what we have done with our office so far in terms of we have over $9 billion in accomplishments over the last two years of this. the congress early on gave us $70 million in supplemental funding to beef up my office to do this. of course, $20 million got rescinded. and we're at the tail ending of those funds. if i don't have more, and i'm working with my own examiners and with our appropriators to make sure that they understand that by 2024, when the full fraud landscape actually takes place, because that would be when the idle loans start to default, right? and we know they will because we have over a million applications associated with identity theft. we have over 280,000 hotline

complaints. our data analytics show that over 40,000 of those are actually actionable, which means we have 100 years worth of work, which is why it was critical to have statute of limitations increased. but to answer the question more directly, unless our office is right sized for the task ahead of us, we definitely will not have the resources. >> okay. final question then, so if you lack the resources to do the job that has been assigned to you, how do you approach it? do you go after just the high dollar fraudsteres? because that sends a bad message to the 10,000 and 20,000 fraudsters? how do you determine which case you'll pursue? >> right. it's important to understand that this was all, from my perspective be a whole of government approach to this to oversight. i'm working with the secret service as you saw yesterday. i'm working with the fbi. i'm working with fdic. i'm working with irs, with

postal inspection services, with everybody else. so never been designed for me alone. plus, administrative remedies that sba can undertake to go after the lower dollar ones. for me with my 50 working agents, 64 total, is that we have to prioritize to get the biggest impact. in some instances that would encollude some small dollar ones but only if they're in part of a wider and broader fraud ring where everyone who got money within the ring is caught up in that net. other than that, we're -- >> understood. >> right. >> you have a tough job. you have a very tough and very important job. mr. ware, thank you so much for being here. i appreciate it. this has not gotten enough attention, so i'm glad you're here. >> thank you very much. let's see what you're saying via social media. katherine, what do we have? while the program was needed, it was run badly from day one. hey, bobby tyson, the 87,000 --

and i realize through attrition the net/net is probably going to be less than that because a lot of irs agents are leaving, but can anyone dispute what i said to my guest, why can't we take those irs agents and i'm not saying cut them short because they need resources, too, but there should be the same ground swell that there was among democrats, at least, to beef up the irs for this. no one, no one -- those stories that i just told you, a guy taking ppp funds and buying $57,000 pokemon card, no one in the country would argue with taking more government resources and empowering my guest and letting them go after the ppp fraudsteres. no brainer. someone champion that issue for goodness sakes. go to my website at smerconish.com this hour. answer this week's poll question. by the way, register for the daily newsletter while you're there. is president biden's student

loan forgiveness fair? up ahead, if merrick garland does indictment president trump, even if warranted, should he first consider whether it might ignite a civil war? it's a concern raised in a brand new editorial in the new york times i'm eager to ask senator patrick leahy about it. he's third in the presidential line of succession. plus, wednesday marks the 25th anniversary of when the world lost princess diana. her chief of staff and private secretary patrick jeffson is here to reflect. ♪ ♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪ ♪ ♪

this is the moment. for a treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema. cibinqo — fda approved. 100% steroid free. not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill for adults who didn't respond to previous treatments. and cibinqo helps provide clearer skin and less itch. cibinqo can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms, or are prone to infections. do not take with medicines that prevent blood clots. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma, lung, skin and other cancers, serious heart-related events, and blood clots can happen. people 50 and older with heart disease risk factors have an increased risk of serious heart-related events or death with jak inhibitors. this is the moment. but we've only just begun. speak with your doctor about cibinqo today. an innovation from pfizer.

with xfinity internet, you get advanced security that helps protect you at home and on the go. you feel so safe, it's as if... i don't know... evander holyfield has your back. i wouldn't click on that. hey, thanks! we got a muffin for ed! all right! you don't need those calories. can we at least split it? nope. advanced security that helps protect your devices in and out of the home. i mean, can i have a bite? only from xfinity. nah. unbeatable internet. made to do anything so you can do anything.

the release of the redacted affidavit on the search of mar-a-lago is raising concern in donald trump's legal team that he could be indicted. but, is a doj prosecution of a former president worth the risk of the extreme response that could result from republicans and trump supporters? as "the new york times" notes in

a brand new editorial, quote, this board is aware that in deciding how mr. trump should be held accountable under the law, it is necessary to consider not just whether criminal prosecution would be warranted, but whether it would be wise. no american president has ever been criminally prosecuted after leaving office when president gerald ford pardoned richard nixon, he ensured that nixon would not be prosecuted for crimes committed during the watergate scandal. ford explained this decision with the warning that such a prosecution posed grave risks of rousing ugly passions and worsening political polarization. my next guest presided over donald trump's second impeachment trial as president protem in the senate. he first came to washington at the age of 34 in 1975, rising to become the third in line for the presidency as well as the chair of the senate judiciary committee. after nearly half a century in office, as one of the longest-serving members of the senate, he's retiring and reflecting on his career in a brand new memoir titled "the

road taken." joining me now is the democratic senator from the great state of vermont, patrick leahy. senator, i was reminded in reading your great memoir you're a former prosecutor. let me ask about this issue of the day, should the justice department give any consideration to the prospect of civil unrest as they determine whether to indictment trump? >> well, i'm sure that is going to be a consideration. and i can think how prosecutors are going to have to wrestle with this question when it is a former president on the one hand, do you say if it's a former president you can't prosecute. or on the other hand, do you say nobody, nobody, in this country is above the law? whether they're president, former president or anybody else. it will be a difficult question, a lot more dependent on what comes out of these papers that

were seized. you know, donald trump has shown a disdain for classified material when he was early on in his presidency, he disclosed to the russian foreign minister with a camera going and a recording machine going in the room very, very top secret intelligence, which put in danger one of our allies clandestine efforts. it put in danger their agents. they had to yank them out of the countries where they were. it was some of the most sensitive information we had. and in a bragging way he gave it to the russian foreign minister. now that may be because of the feelings he has toward russia. he also when putin went into ukraine, he called him a genius. i call him a war criminal.

>> i've always believed that a prosecutor needs to make a determination as to whether there's sufficient evidence of a crime having been committed and a belief that they can successfully prosecute someone for that crime. i don't know where to go. wherein lies the citation for this third consideration of for lack of a better descripter the impact on society. >> well, i was a prosecutor, as you said, for eight years. i had to make decisions who to prosecute. i prosecuted democrats, republicans, people in high office. i had to do it, but i was never faced with a question like this. i would say incidentally, earlier, you talked about the fraud and the covid money. i would prosecute those people to the fullest extent.

i wanted to see them go to prison. i want the example made that if you commit fraud on a government like that, you'll go to prison. you won't get a slap on the wrist. you won't get a fine. you'll go to prison. >> senator leahy, quote, the senate is a broken place. i read and really enjoyed elements of your book. among the many vignettes you talk about iron mike mansfield with his back room bar. it occurs to me that if the back room bar existed today in the senate, it would be segregated by rs and ds. like wherein lies the break of the comradery that you enjoyed for so many years that no longer exists. >> well, it was a gradual thing. i think a lot of it came after the -- what newt gingrich did in

the house in polarizing and ignoring the example of his predecessor, bob michael. and said it will be one party controlling issues, and a lot of those members came to the senate and felt the same way. i've always felt the senate should be the conscience of the nation. we ought to come together. i've been very successful in a lot of legislation i've proposed but only because i've gone and sought out republicans to work with me. across the political spectrum. they're slowly coming back to having some meetings together. but it's become too polarized. we used to have a dining room where republicans and democrats were in there, at each other's table, talking over issues. the vice president of both parties would come and join. and things got worked out. it's not happening that way now.

and it is too polarized. we have seen far and far more filibusters than ever before. it is not the way the senate should or could be. one of the reasons i wrote the book "the road taken" was to show the arc of where the senate had been, what it could be and where it's ended up. now, we have some times coming together, aid to ukraine number one. nowhere near enough and it's hurting the country. >> i think that young people who read the memoir and i recommend it, will be shocked to hear of the collegiality that did exist when you came aboard in the '70s and '80s until some period in the 1990s. senator, i wish you good things with the memoir. thank you for being here. >> thank you, michael. i appreciate the chance to be here. checking in now on more social media reaction. katherine, what do we have from the world of twitter. what happens if he returns to the white house? yeah. the issue of -- look, i -- the

words of this "times" editorial, you have to read this editorial today because it crystallizes an issue i have been wondering about. it is necessary to consider not just whether criminal prosecution would be warranted but whether it would be wise. and i don't think that you'll find a citation, nothing in the constitution, nothing in the case law, nothing statutory as to wherein lies the basis for that, for a prosecutor. i'm not denying what the "times" says. i'm sure it's a consideration for merrick garland. here senate leahy says go after the ppp people and put them in prison. i totally agree. there's no consideration of the impact on society there. like, here is the law. go apply it. it's a lot more complicated with trump. and the "times" also says it ought to be something serious if they are going to prosecute him. have you voted yet at the smerconish.com poll question? is president biden's student loan forgiveness fair? very simple.

is it fair? answer, i'll give you the results in a couple minutes. still to come, this coming wednesday marks the 25th anniversary, wow, 25th anniversary of the paris car crash that led to the death of princess diana, princess of wales. how will the royal family mark the occasion? i'm eager to speak to diana's chief of staff and private secretary is here. heir pain. tylenol® is the #1 dr. recommended pain relief brand for those with high blood pressure. if you have questions on whether tylenol is right for you, talk to your doctor. it's the all-new subway series menu. twelve irresistible new subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet!

my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... the itching... the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, most people saw 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. the majority of people saw 90% clearer skin even at 5 years. tremfya® is the first medication of its kind also approved for adults with active psoriatic arthritis... and it's 6 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®... ask your doctor about tremfya® today.

joe biden and democrats in congress just passed the inflation reduction act to lower our costs. the plan lowers the cost of healthcare and medicine and lowers our energy bills by investing in clean energy. that's more savings for us.

men put their skin through a lot. day-in, day-out that's why dove men body wash has skin-strengthening nutrients and moisturizers that help rebuild your skin. dove men+care. smoother, healthier skin with every shower. we strip in the community garden. i've been stripping here for years. i strip before take-off. breathe right strips open your nose for relief you can feel right away, helping you take in air more easily, wherever you are.

where were you when you heard that princess diana had died? amazingly this wednesday marks the 25th anniversary of her death at age 36 from injuries sustained in a horrific car crash in a paris tunnel. diana was one of the most famous people on the planet, instrumental in the humanizing of the royal family and giving them relevance in a modern era. but, will there be any commemoration by prince charles or queen elizabeth this wednesday? joining us now is perfect person to discuss patrick jeffson,

private secretary and former chief of staff, books includes shadows of a princess and the meghan factor. thank you so much for being here, patrick. you were with her for eight years, 24/7, 365 days a year. what about her might the rest of us not understand? >> that's a good question, michael. i think perhaps the thing that surprises people about diana is to realize that she was not the girl next door type. i know she's famous for having been approachable and relatable and as you said, to have humanized the monarchy. but actually she was an aristocrat to her fingertips. she had royal quality that you couldn't mistake a charisma and she was extremely professional as a princess, very dutiful, very diligent and she had that great old royal virtue of putting duty before self.

and love of country before everything. >> patrick, since her passing, and more recently we have learned she really was duped by martin ba here is, right, in that pan a ram ma interview. of what consequence was that? >> the direct consequence of martin basher's unethical interview she was cut off from the royal family and the support system that that represented. the interview led to direct intervention from the queen instructing both charles and diana to finalize their divorce and that meant that from then on diana was on her own. and that led, i think, through a series of interconnected incidents to her being in the back of that mercedes in paris on the tragic night. >> but for the bashere interview could the marriage to charles survived? by her telling, there were three

in that marriage. >> well, certainly the interview didn't help. but i think had princess diana had the clarity at that time and the, i suppose the sense of purpose, she could have said to her husband, you know, i am your wife. i am the future queen. i am the mother of the future king. i'm not going anywhere. deal with it. and they would have had to deal with it and they would have done. >> okay. what does that mean? i assume that there are patrick jephson's who surround the royal family who can navigate these waters, that this sort of thing has come up in the history of the monarchy previously. >> yes. it's very pragmatic institution. and given the kind of lifestyle that the prince and princess lived, there were opportunities for them both to perhaps pursue extramarital happiness, if they could. but there was a bigger issue at

stake. this was a matter of national importance. the divorce of the future king and queen was a totally unprecedented, constitutional trauma. and we're living with the consequences of it today. >> meghan dethroned joe rogan for number one podcast in the country this week. who knew. when i look at the dynamics and of course you know them far better than a. you have written books and know all these folks. to me, london is not large enough. the uk is not large enough for both kate and meghan and that's why meghan left. your thought? >> well, i think that meghan and harry have learned to operate on the intersection of royalty and celebrity. and they seem to be getting the celebrity bit quite successfully right. and they are, as you say, they are achieving enormous profile. but it's the royalty aspect of the deal that seems to be raising eyebrows and rightly so.

royalty and celebrity are not the same thing. royalty to enjoy the privileges of the titles and the prestige of royalty, that has to be earned everyday. it's on loan from the british people. and i think it's the lack of evidence that the royal prestige is still being earned that causes the problem. >> patrick, finally, 25 years ago the royal family struggled in terms of how to deal with the passing of princess diana. is there a right way that this coming wednesday, both the queen and charles, should handle this situation, this anniversary? >> well, the monarchy as an institution doesn't really do anniversaries of deaths. today incidentally is the anniversary of the death of the queen's uncle. so, there's going to be no public expression of anything to mark that. and with diana, the tenth anniversary was well marked, the

20th by william and harry. they will mark it again in their own way this week, i'm sure, but as an institution, they tend to draw lines and move on. it's the rest of us who have the opportunity to remember diana, be grateful for all she did and even to ask questions about her life and her royal experience and what lessons that leaves for future generations. >> thank you, patrick jephson, always a pleasure to have you here. >> thanks, michael. still to come, more of your best and worst tweets, your social media, youtube, facebook all of it and the result of this week's poll question. have you voted at smerconish.com? is president biden's student loan forgiveness fair? xt day. so betty can be the... barcode beat conductor. ♪ go betty! ♪ let's be more than our allergies! zeize the day. with zyrtec. ♪ ♪ the thing that's different about a vrbo vacation home.

you always have the whole place to yourself. no stranger at the dinner table making things awkward. or in another room taking up space. it's just you and your people. because why would you ever share your vacation home with someone you wouldn't share your vacation with. ♪ ♪ (swords clashing) -had enough? -no... arthritis. here. aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme.

♪ with 20 made-to-order griddle combos, there's a perfect plate for everyone. great value for all your favorites only from ihop. download the app and earn free food with every order. ice cream is like whooping cough, it's not just for kids. whooping cough is highly contagious for people of any age. and it can cause violent uncontrollable coughing fits. ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination because it's not just for kids.

what's the #1 retinol brand used most by dermatologists? it's neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® smooths the look of fine lines in 1-week, deep wrinkles in 4. so you can kiss wrinkles goodbye! neutrogena®

i'm interested not only in the margin of the poll question at smerconish.com but also the number of votes as a metric of passion. here's what we second degree is president biden's student loan forgiveness fair. hit me with it. looking at the margin and also the number. 27,000, big number. big number, and so, yes, the president will be happy to hear that the yes votes are there, but i keep believing this is a biggy, this is abortion, this is border, this is crime. i didn't anticipate it, and i've been answering phones for a living for a long, long time. here's some of the social media reaction that came in. yes, it is fair. anyone that has a problem with it is pissed only because they missed out, get over it. i guess you're talking about the

father that confronted elizabeth warren saying paid all the bills, work hard, sacrificed, bought a boat. forgiveness is a deep sea euphemism. if liberals were honest they'd just call it what it is a transfer of debt to those who didn't undertake it. it's not the first time the trump tax cuts benefitted people who supported trump, but it sure does align with the democratic base, those who will be beneficiaries of it, which i think is your point. here's another social media reaction. yes, it's fair to the millions with pressing student loans, maybe unfair to those who struggle to pay off their loans, right. life isn't fair, some of us luck out and some don't. garth, if it all evens out in the end, if we feel like i wasn't a beneficiary this time but i've been one in other circumstances. do i have time for one more? i do not, , ununfortunately.

okay. i'll see you next week. a monster was attacking but the team remained calm. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose. (fisher investments) it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same, but at fisher investments we're clearly different. (other money manager) different how? you sell high commission investment products, right? (fisher investments) nope. fisher avoids them. (other money manager) well, you must earn commissions on trades. (fisher investments) never at fisher. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in some hidden and layered fees. (fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. if your moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms

are stopping you in your tracks... choose stelara® from the start... and move toward relief after the first dose... with injections every two months. stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. pres, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. feel unstoppable. ask your doctor how lasting remission can start with stelara®. janssen can help you explore cost support options. finding the perfect designer isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found her. she's in austin between a dog named klaus and her favorite shade of green. it's actually salem clover. and you can find her right now on upwork.com when the world is your workforce, finding the perfect project manager, designer, developer, or whomever you may need...

tends to fall right into place. find top-rated talent who can start today on upwork.com i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uhh... here, i'll te that! yay!!! ensu max protein, with 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar enter powered by protein challenge for a chance protei to win big! what's the #1 retinol brand used most by dermatologists? it's neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® smooths the look of fine lines in 1-week, deep wrinkles in 4. so you can kiss wrinkles goodbye! neutrogena®

this is xfinity rewards. our way of showing our appreciation. with rewards of all shapes and sizes. [ cheers ] are we actually going? yes!! and once in a lifetime moments. two tickets to nascar! yes! find rewards like these and so many more in the xfinity app. with xfinity internet, you get advanced security that helps protect you at home and on the go. you feel so safe, it's as if... i don't know... evander holyfield has your back. i wouldn't click on that. hey, thanks! we got a muffin for ed! all right! you don't need those calories. can we at least split it? nope. advanced security that helps protect your

devices in and out of the home. i mean, can i have a bite? only from xfinity. nah. unbeatable internet. made to do anything so you can do anything. happening now in the newsroom, former president trump again calling for a special master to intervene after a judge unseals documents about the search of his mar-a-lago home. plus what we're learning about those classified government secrets inside. a major slide on wall street. >> friday free fall. stocks plunging after jerome powell says the fed will take aggressive action to tame inflation, and he's warning more economic pain is coming. plus, dozens more asylum seekers arriving in new york