-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com it has been a big night however you look at it. and there's still more to come. with that in mind, let's hand it over to victor blackwell and "cnn tonight." >> john, thank you. i'm victor blackwell, and this is "cnn tonight." it is unprecedented to hear the

president of the united states call his predecessor a threat to this country. that's exactly what we heard tonight from president joe biden about donald trump and trumpism in his renewed battle for the soul of america campaign, this time ahead of the midterms. what is happening today in america, he says, is not normal. >> donald trump and the maga republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. they promote authoritarian leaders and they fan the flames of political violence that are a threat to our personal rights, to the pursuit of justice, to the rule of law, to the very soul of this country. they look at the mob that stormed the united states capitol on january 6th, brutally attacking law enforcement, not as insurrectionists who placed a dagger at the throat of our democracy, but they look at them as patriots.

and they see their maga failure to stop a peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election as preparation for the 2022 and 2024 elections. >> on the same day biden delivered this fiery prime-time speech, trump heaped more praise on those involved in the violent attempt to subvert the 2020 presidential election on january 6th. the contrast between the two could not be more stark. trump says that he's actually giving money to some of the capitol riot defendants and would pardon them if he could. >> i met with and financially supporting people that are incredible, and they were in my office two days ago. it's very much on my mind. it's a disgrace what they've done to them. i will look very, very favorably about full pardons if i decide to run and if i win, i will be looking very, very strongly about pardons. >> joining me now, former democratic congresswoman abby

fink nower and alex burns and se cup. abby, let me start with you. this was a fiery speech, as i said. the white house said this was not about donald trump, but he called him out by name and it was the first applause line of the speech. >> look, that speech was joe biden. that speech was exactly why president biden ran for president in the first place. i still remember talking to him before he announced, and it was because he was worried about our democracy. he was worried about where our country was headed. and now that he is president and we've seen how trump has continued to divide folks, he has continued to have the backs of insurrectionists who went after our democracy, after my friends in the capitol that day, and he is doubling down, making sure that the country knows that president biden is there defending it, will do whatever he can to keep fighting for them, keep fighting for this country, democracy, and again, who he is.

he spent his whole life in service for this country, and that, again, tonight is what we saw. >> who's the audience for this, alex? >> look, i think we've seen a clear shift in the mood of the country over the last couple months in response to the dobbs decision, striking down the right to abortion access, and certainly the aftermath of the raid on mar-a-lago, the passing of the inflation reduction act. there's clearly a window for joe biden to get out in front of the country and remind them about things they liked about him in 2020. all those forces i just described, moving the political environment more in the direction of democrats, almost none of that has to do with joe biden personally driving a message and shifting public opinion. i think what you saw tonight is at least from the white house seemed that he should be out there in front of the american public leading the charge and carrying the flag in a different way than he has up to this point. >> i think that was for everyone who might be thinking about staying home. i think joe biden was saying, if

you're mad at me, if you feel disappointed, you feel let down by me or democrats, things aren't going as well as you thought or we promised r, these are the stakes. so, it's not about me. it's not about the party. it's about america. and this is why folks like me, you know, center-right folks, voted for him because it was time to make america good again. and those are the things he talked about. it was important for him to say these things, to call lies lies, to call out violence, to talk about things like the constitution and law and order. he had to say these things. but this wasn't a conversion speech. he wasn't trying to get, you know, republicans to leave the flock. this was to remind moderates, independents, and anyone else who might not come out in november, this is why you must. >> yeah. well, and there was hope in it again, right? and that's something that i would, you know, like to say i think is new for democrats in the last month is a bunch of hope that we are feeling.

and president biden, tonight, reminded the country of that. i mean, yes, it was dark at times, right, where we're talking about the dangers -- >> i thought it was pretty dark. >> yeah, but at the same time, there were those moments of the american dream, right? >> uh-huh. >> where he reminded the country of what does actually make america great and what we can do from here, right? there was hope. and that was the thing that i think truly democrats had been missing up until the last month. and i thought it was great of him tonight to remind folks of it again. >> but that is one of the big challenges for biden particularly in the final two months of this midterm campaign. i saw in the electorate on a positive vision of the future, right, that biden is very, very in his element talking about the threat that trump represents and talking about the american political tradition, the main stream american tradition that he's talked about in virtually the exact same language going back to the beginning of his 2020 campaign. talking about we never lived up to the dreams of founders, but

every generation has opened the door of opportunity wider. what we have not heard a lot of him since he became president, the speech he's talking about lowering prescription drug prices and rebuilding the country. i think that is a crucial, crucial message. i would bet for the next 60-some days we're going to hear quite a bit more of that than the straight, full-on, double-barrelled, anti-trump stuff. >> kevin mccarthy delivered this pre-buttal from west ping ston, pennsylvania. let's listen to a little bit of that. >> when the president speaks tonight at independence hall, the first lines out of his mouth should be to apologize for slandering tens of millions of americans as fascists. what joe biden doesn't understand is that the soul of america is in the tens of millions of hard-working people, of loving families, of

law-abiding citizens whom he vilified for simply wanting a stronger, safer, and more prosperous country. >> obviously, he did not do that. but he did, at the top, try to -- i don't know if this was clearing up what people have been trying to make the semi-fascist comment into, saying that all republicans are semi-fascist. he said, it's not all republicans. it's not even the majority of the party. but people who want to believe that that's what he was saying will still do that, and those who don't, still won't. >> look, he is not wrong in his diagnosis of the problem. i wish he'd leave the punditry to us, frankly. but, listen, hillary took some heat for deplorables. he'll take heat for calling members of a political party semi-fascists. but he isn't wrong. and i don't think he should back down from diagnosing problems and calling threats what they are. but it's good that he clarified

he wasn't talking about an entire party. i have to do that, too, when i say, listen, the republican party or trump followers, it's not everyone. but, listen, this party is led by donald trump still, and it's definitely led by trumpism. and so it's parsing to really try and contort your way into identifying the -- you know, the whole party is this right now. >> there's a new poll out that shows even beyond the economy and jobs and crime and guns and abortion, the democracy is the most important issue facing the united states. of course we heard that was the focus of the president's speech. but do you believe we're going to hear this on the campaign trail, that this will make it to the top line topic for these candidates? >> if we don't, we should. i mean, at the end of the day, when you're out there and you're talking to folks who are just trying to live their lives and, you know, put food on the table, get their kids to baseball, soccer practice, they've got a lot on their mind.

but they're also worried about the future of this country. there are folks who saw, maybe, you know, they fought for our country or they saw their parents fight for it, and they're looking at -- looking around going, my god, where are we headed from here when you've got, you know, the capitol being stormed on january 6, 2021? i mean, they're still terrified about that. so, i think this is right to talk about this, to talk about what's on the line. and i think it is on democrats but not just democrats, people who, you know, again, the media, everybody, to be talking about what is on the line and what is at stake in this election but also in 2024 because it's a scary time. >> yeah, the president certainly framed the next -- what -- 67, 68 days until the midterm election. abby, thank you very much. alex, s.e., stick with us. the january 6th committee is now requesting testimony from a former house speaker. the question is will newt gingrich cooperate, and why does the panel want to hear from him? a key member of the committee is with us next.

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the january 6th committee is seeking the testimony of another major witness, former house speaker newt gingrich. according to a letter asking for his voluntary, spreading election lies through tv ads. the committee says it already has evidence of gingrich doing this, in an exert he -- quote, the goal is to arouse the country's anger. if we inform the american people in a way they find convincing and it arouses their anger, they will then bring pressure on legislators and governors. congresswoman zoe lofgren from the january 6th committee is with me now. congresswoman, it's good to have you. what more can you tell us about the former speaker's involvement with the trump team? >> well, i think it's laid out in the chairman's letter.

you've referenced his role in trying to get the election overturned just before the electoral college met. we also have information about his efforts to get the election overturned even after the riot on the 6th. so, we would like to talk to him and to hear from him about these matters. and i'm hopeful that he will come in. i served with newt gingrich, and i would hope that he would come forward and sit down with us. >> how close to fruition did this plan for these tv ads to arouse anger come? >> well, you know, i don't want to get into all the evidence we compiled, but there was a wide-ranging plot involving many individuals to overturn the election after the election was held. and this was part of that effort. we know that there was an online

effort to arouse anger. we've been able to map out some of the online efforts that promoted violence. and some of it was main stream on tv. some of it was web based. and we're getting a clearer picture of really a comprehensive plan to arouse anger and to use violence to overturn the election. >> any early indication that the former speaker will, as the letter asks, voluntarily cooperate? >> the letter was just sent out today, so we're hoping to hear from him soon. you know, my first day in congress was the day that newt gingrich was first sworn in as speaker of the house. so, we go back a ways, and i -- if he's watching, let me just say, i hope you come in and we can have a discussion about these important matters for our country. >> okay. i don't know if he's watching.

i'd be surprised. but if newt gingrich is watching, you just heard there from congresswoman lofgren. let me move on to other potential witnesses. we have new reporting tonight about ginni thomas, the life of supreme court justice clarence thomas. she now ottnot only pushed ariz to turn over the results, but also sent emails to wisconsin lawmakers. what is the effort now to get her to speak? the last time we engaged on jenny thompson specifically, the committee was considering subpoenaing her. are you moving beyond just consideration? >> let me just say, you know, when we have a subpoena, we announce it. and we don't usually discuss our deliberations prior to that. but, you know, a lot of people had opinions. that doesn't make them a witness. but we would like to discuss with mrs. thomas her collaboration with john eastman

and have a fuller understanding of the role that she played. she had said when we mentioned our interest in talking to her that she would look forward to coming in, that she would definitely come in and looked forward to it. and i hope that's still the case. >> can you explain that distinction you just mentioned, that a lot of people have opinions. it doesn't make them a witness. what's the relevance of that directly to ginni thomas? >> well, there are people who click onto websites, who forwarded emails to their friends and neighbors. that doesn't make them a witness to an effort to overturn the election necessarily. but we would like to talk to mrs. thomas about the connection she might have had with professor eastman. and you know, she said in her public statement that she would

clarify everything, that it was all fine. and so i wish she would step forward and do that for us. this doesn't have to be adversarial. she should come in and do exactly what she said she could do, which is clear the air. >> when you say there are people who went online and forwarded emails, are you suggesting that's what she did, that she just sent something on? >> no, no i'm not. >> okay. >> i've probably gotten too far down and i don't want to confuse people. but, you know, we're looking for people who have evidence about the plot to overturn the election. >> all right. let's talk also about tony ornato, former secret service official, was a former deputy chief of staff for the former president. we know the committee interviewed him twice earlier this year. what's the effort to get him back in? i know that you have said that what you've seen from the secret service does not correlate with what you're hearing from the

secret service. what do you want to know from tony ornato, and how close are you to getting some of those answers? >> well, we do want to talk to him again. and there are a lot of things that just don't add up to me, what the secret service has said and the material that we're get getting. some of the testimony is inconsistent. so, his abrupt departure from the secret service is of interest. and we're hoping to be able to explore this one in the near future. so, i don't mean to suggest that he's unwilling to come in. there's no indication that's the case. but we're looking forward to further discussion with him. >> what's your reaction to what we heard from the former president today that he is meeting with some of those who were at the capitol on january

6th offering, as he calls it, financial support. if he runs and wins re-election, he is considering pardoning them with an apology. what do you think about what you heard from former president trump? >> you know, every time i think i can't be shocked, i'm shocked. you know, today there was one of the defendants, who brutally attacked a capitol police officer, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for multiple violent felonies. and that the former president would be talking about pardoning people who were engaged in that behavior really is shocking. and that he would be funding people who tried to, you know, essentially murder the vice president, overturn the election. and go back and i think we have him on the committee website. take a look at the first hearing and the level of violence that

was aimed at the capitol police who served us so bravely and who took such a beating, almost like a medieval war. and to say that that is patriotic, to say that those people should get an apology, i'm sorry. that is disgusting. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, always good to talk with you. thank you. >> thank you. there are new developments in the classified documents investigation. donald trump's lawyers and doj prosecutors came face to face in court today for the first time since the fbi's search of mar-a-lago. we'll tell you what went down when "cnn tonight" returns.

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my cholesterol is borderline. so i take garlique to help maintain healthy cholesterol safely and naturally. and it's odor free. i'm taking charge of my cholesterol with garlique. we could soon learn a lot more about what was seized from donald trump's home. a federal judge says she's now considering releasing a more detailed inventory of what the fbi took from mar-a-lago last

month. we've only seen an abbreviated receipt from the search warrant. neither side objected when judge ilene cannon gave them the opportunity. this was the first time since the search that trump's lawyers and doj prosecutors made arguments in court. and we're now waiting for the judge to decide if she will grant the trump team's request for a special master. she said she's considering temporarily blocking government prosecutors from accessing materials seized, and if she does appoint that third party to review them. at one point, trump's lawyers tried to down play the seriousness of what was found at mar-a-lago, highly classified natural secrets that one attorney has compared to a hunt for an overdue library book. >> that's the stuff of an overdue library book and some people that are perhaps holding this president to a different standard than anyone else. >> cnn political commentators s.e. cupp is back, and also with us, jennifer rogers.

jennifer, an overdue library book. i'll just hand that off to you. >> i've got to say, i'm offended. that's ridiculous. we have top secret documents, sci documents, special programs documents, and jim trusty, who i know and liked at doj, but he wants to taukt library books. that's outrageous. not only does it down play the seriousness of what we're talking about here. but i think people will see that as the ploy that it is. they want to down play in various way. they want to say it's a case about the presidential records act, this and that. you just look at that picture on the screen, and you can tell this is not about library books. you don't have to see what's in those documents to know if the government gothers to classify them at that level, it's more than a library book. >> does this make it worse? >> i was going to make a "seinfeld" joke about tropic of cancer or tropic of capricorn. >> go ahead. >> it is so dumb.

all of it is so dumb. this is not an overdue library book. another lawyer compared espionage to mundane charge. this is not mundane. nobody thinks this is how they found your office, donald trump. nobody who has ever seen any "forensic files" episode ever. >> he's ochded by that. >> everyone knows that's how they lay out the evidence and take pictures. he is obsessed with this which is like being shown a picture of a body and a gun and saying, that's not how i keep my gun. that's not how i keep my bodies. that's crazy. >> a lot of people think when you walk into my office, i have confidential documents or whatever it may be, all declassified, but i have confidence documents spread out all over my floor like a slob, like i'm sitting there reading these documents all day long or somebody else would be. it's so -- it's so dishoens when you look at it.

>> the fbi wasn't trying to pull a fast one. >> he keeps his classified documents alphabetized. they are in a neat stack. >> he and his lawyers continue to litigate this, to use a somewhat inappropriate verb, litigate this as though it's a public relations battle. if you can just say enough times as confidently as you can that this is all an unserious, sort of you missed a stoplight kind of charge, then this goes away. i think -- i'm not the lawyer at the table. but i do think that's reflected in sort of the caliber and seriousness of the arguments that they have been making in some of these court filings. and when you hear the president -- former president -- out there saying that kind of stuff, i'm not some slob in reading these documents all day. it just makes you wonder, does he fully grasp the gravity of what's going on here? i think when you talk to republicans certainly in washington, folks who are working in races around the country, there is just this -- there's no other word for it but just this horrendous acid

flashback to when he actually was the president and whatever it was that you were trying to talk about that day he could decide that today's the day he's going to feud with the queen of england or whatever. today's the day he's going to out and defend the organizational capacity of his personal office. that's just obviously missing the point in a pretty grand way. >> acid flashback. is that what it was? >> he said that. yeah, i heard it too. >> i wonder though, the attorney chris kise who just came on, the former florida solicitor general says that if you grant the request for the special master, that will bring the temperature down across the country. people will then have confidence in this investigation. do you expect that will convince trump or trump's people? >> i'm sorry. the temperature that they raised, that they are the ones who have been throwing fuel on the fire? i mean, you know, come on. this is ridiculous. the temperature is raised because they have raised the temperature. and the special master, i mean, no one's really paying attention to those details. they went in, they executed the

search warrant, people went bananas, you know, doj responds, as they do, very calmly, very, you know, concisely, in writing, in court only. and you know, it doesn't take the temperature down. this special master thing, she appoints one, she doesn't appoint one, the person reviews what's already been reviewed or not. no one's going to care about that. this is just rhetoric. the temperature is up because they want it up because that's the way that they've decided to deal with this. they didn't have to go this way at all. you know, they did this really under the radar. it's trump and his team that have gone out pushing all this forward really forcing the doj to respond with all of these factual corrections and so on. this is really on them, including the increase in temperature. >> i think that's such an important point. the decision to raise the temperature and really the road not taken here, which, again, i'm not the lawyer here. but i am a political reporter. and certainly politically, a road not taken would be to just keep it really quiet. you're not going to talk about this. yeah, we're working out stuff with the justice department. that's happening through this

channel over here. but former president is focused on his maga agenda or whatever, right. but the decision to say, no, we're going to file tons of stuff in court, challenge you to produce more materials which of course then the justice department does and we're going to be on television making these way out there arguments every day. it's a decision to put this front and center in the public eye. and even if donald trump finds that personally gratifying, it's obviously not helpful to his party, not that he seems to care, and doesn't seem particularly helpful to his case. >> it's also just a strawman that the temperature is raised. all the polling shows that most americans think what the fbi did was justified and right. most americans are not worried that they're going to come to their house and ask for the secret documents that they took from the white house. that's not a thing. it's a narrative that is being created in trump world to threaten people out of doing their jobs or scare them out of pursuing this. for most americans, the temperature is not raised. they think this was the right thing to do.

>> again, all we are learning about this search is because of trump first announcing the search and then asking for the special master. all of these details are his team's doing. all right, everybody, thank you very much. we're of course waiting for the decision from that judge. ahead, the people of jackson, mississippi, are still struggling without clean water despite claim of progress. we've seen these kinds of systemic failures before in america. what would stacey abrams do to prevent this crisis in her southern state? she's running for governor of georgia, and she is here next. i'm a performing artist. so a healthy diet is one of the most important things. i also feel the same way about my dog. we were feeding her dry, triangle shaped ingredients long as the yellow brick road. we didn't know how bad it was for her until we actually got the good food. we got her the farmer's dog sent in the mail. it was all fresh, when she started eating healthier,

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city leaders in jackson, mississippi, said they've made significant gains, their words, in restoring water service. yet, for roughly 150,000 americans in the state's capital, the largest city, this is what life is like there, waiting in line for something you cannot just walk to your tap right now and get, clean water. we've seen everyone from church groups to inmates pitching in to distribute bottled water. but frustration is pointed directly at the people in charge.

>> what is they doing with our tax dollars? you've got to pay a water bill, but you can't use the water. that don't make no sense. i got a $100 water bill i just paid and i can't use the water. >> listen, it's easy to see the situation in jackson is happening somewhere else. it's not here. but just like it was in flint, michigan. there are cities across america on the brink of having the same problem. anyone running for office needs to have an answer for how they will help their community, and that includes my next guest. she's a democratic nominee for governor in georgia, stacey abrams. it's good to have you tonight. >> thank you. thank you for having me. >> certainly. let's talk about georgia. a report found the state was the fifth worst for untested or contaminated water. and just last year, there were 941 epa violations by georgia water systems. that's up from 652 the year before, with 93 health-based violations. with the plan to make sure that no city or town in georgia

becomes another jackson or flint. >> first and foremost, we have to realize that we are one georgia and that there should not be a discrepancy based on racial inequity or economic capacity. the provision of law, the provision of clean water is a fundamental obligation of the state. and as deputy city attorney for the city of atlanta i worked with the mayor of atlanta to ensure we were able to deliver clean water. across the state local governments are precluded from taking the actions they need because they are not getting the support they deserve from the state of georgia. i would take the revenue generate bid the infrastructure bill, by the inflation reduction act that would flow into the state of georgia as well as diverting some portion of the $5 billion surplus that georgia has on hand to make certain we are working with local governments to resolve water issues. these are fundamental situations that can be addressed. georgia has an antiquated and outdated system. the fact that the city of

mcentire is celebrating because they were able to get $6 million to replace an antiquated septic tank system. throughout georgia we have both a water and sewer issue and a septic issue, and it's going to require immediate attention by the next governor of georgia. the current governor has refused to take action, and i will do so. >> president biden today in philadelphia, he talked about infrastructure. of course the bipartisan infrastructure act that became law and the money now that's going to be dispersed throughout the country and where that money's going to go. let's watch. >> i believe we can build a better america, so we passed the biggest infrastructure investment since president dwight d. eisenhower, and we embark on building the nation's new roads, bridges, ports, high paid internet, railroads. >> of course the concern always is making sure that money gets to the communities that need it

most. often the underserved communities, unfortunately usually black and brown communities. >> absolutely. and we know under the current governor first and foremost, he opposed the legislation, while he happily spent the money now that it has arrived. he has done nothing to guarantee transparency, to ensure that communities are being equitably treated. and he was on the brink of opposing legislation a few years ago that would have helped three cities access clean water. he finally relented and signed the legislation but did so with a fairly pif if i response that said he didn't think it was the responsibility of taxpayers to solve the problem by giving the local communities the ability to tax themselves. we know that was one of the challenges faced in jackson, that the state legislature denied them the ability to address their problems. taxes may not always be the answer, but the government, especially the governor of the state of georgia, the governor of the state of mississippi, has

an affirmative obligation to work with local governments, city and county, to find solutions because the people have paid their taxes and they deserve to have services that work every day. >> i will say that in february governor kemp awarded more than 122 million to water and sewer projects. but there is still more work to be done. not just water, roads, bridges, as we heard from the president. there is also the health care of the people of georgia and making sure they have resources to clinics, to hospitals as well. what's the plan? >> let's begin with what's going to have to happen in georgia because of the failure of brian kemp. yes, he allocated a bit of money, money he had nothing to do with securing, and money he begrudgingly accepted, and no money he's willing to support by making certain it goes far enough to solve problems. and it's failure to solve problems is why georgia will lose yet another hospital under his watch. it will be the sixth hospital to

shut down under the watch of brian kemp. it has been around for nearly 100 years. it is one of the two level one trauma centers, and it's going to shut its doors on november 1st. this is entirely the fault of republican leadership over the last decade that has refused to expand medicaid and draw down what would this yore be $3.5 billion. this money would only increase over the coming years and it's money that could have saved lives and saved this hospital. brian kemp has refused to bring our money home. and instead of paying for health care here in georgia, georgia taxpayers are being forced to pay for health care otherwise and elsewhere without being able to take care of themselves. i will make it my number one priority to save lives, to save hospitals, to save jobs, and to make certain across the state of georgia everyone has access to the ability to thrive. >> democratic nominee for the governor of georgia, stacey abrams, thank you. >> thank you. to a new police incident, an unarmed black man fatally shot

in bed. the body cam video has been released. it provides a lot kmorn text as to what happened. but so many questions remain, as a young man's family demands accountability. you're going to hear from the lawyer for the officer who pulled that trigger next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ joe biden and democrats in congress just passed a law that lowers costs for healthcare, medicine, and energy bills by making corporations pay the taxes they owe without raising taxe on any of us making under $400,000 a year. the unknown is not empty. it's a storm that crashes,

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#. donovan louis was shot and killed in his bed at 2:00 in the morning. he was 20 years old, a black man man. the person who shot him, 30 year veteran of the columbus, ohio, police department. louis was not armed. this shooting happened early tuesday morning. officers were looking to serve louis with a warrant for domestic violence and saassault and improper handling of a firearm. they searched the apartment for several minutes. they repeatedly called out for donovan and used a dog during the search. the next video is hard to watch, but you will see on the body cam footage how quickly officer ricky anderson goes from opening the bedroom door to pulling the trigger. >> we're going to send that dog in. hey -- >> he's got something in his

hand. >> the only thing that was in donovan louis's hands was a vape pen according to police. kaitlyn stevens is one of the attorneys representing the officer, ricky anderson. thank you so much for being with me tonight. what is the threat of a man in a bed in that amount of time? >> well, so what the law says, mr. blackwell, is that in order to assess what is going on with respect to the threat is that it has to be reasonable, and had y when you look at a reasonable police officer with respect to analyzing the threat, you have certain risk factors to look at. a, whether or not this suspect poses an immediate threat, whether or not the suspect has attempted to evade arrest, whether the suspect is being compliant or noncompliant, and so what the reasonable police officer standard says is that police officers are, nein fact, allowed to be mistaken so long as that mistake is reasonable. the reasonable mistaken officer

is, in fact, justified in his or her decision to use deadly force. and so actually possession of a weapon is irrelevant, and that's what the case law tells us is that actual possession of whether or not the person had a weapon is not relevant for the consideration of whether or not a police officer reasonably perceived a weapon. and so with respect to the actual weapon, it's -- what it is is an issue of mistake, and that's what this case boils down to. if it was, in fact, reasonable, that officer anderson reasonably perceived a weapon. like i said, actual possession is irrelevant, and the law does not require police officers to wait until the harm is, in fact, inflicted upon officers before ho allowing the officer to perceive a threat. >> in less than a second that door opens and he fires that shot. listen, i've seen more of the video than we're showing because of our network policy, we're not going to show the man being shot

on television but in less than a second when that door open he fires a shot even before someone says hands, hands, hands, he's got something in his hands. in that time how does he even have enough time to perceive what's there? >> what the reasonable police officer standard accounts for is that officers are often forced to make split second decisions with respect to whether or not a person perceives a threat, so i can't speak about the specifics of this investigation because it is an ongoing investigation, but what i can talk about is the law that surrounds police officers being forced to make split second decisions every day, and -- >> i hear that, and let me read the law just so we have the same starting point. i'll read the law that where it says for force to be used there must be a reason to believe the response is objectively reasonable to protect themselves or others from the imminent threat of death or serious physical harm.

so that's the -- so that's the law there. let me ask you, why does this keep happening in columbus, you represent several columbus cases, andrew hill, andrew michl el who just got a second trial date for a 2018 case. this is the third officer-involved shooting in eight days. what is it about the columbus police department? >> and so i mean, i can speculate all day as to why this is happening. however, i think it's a combination of things. i think certainly that there is an epidemic of gun violence that is plaguing our city and our state, but i also think it's also attributable to the fact that police officers are now able to account for the fact that ohio is now an open carry concealed state, and so every time a police officer leaves his or her house, they are faced with the fact that a person may

or may not be armed and they don't have to have any training for that or anything -- or they don't have to have a permit. >> is it your suggestion that because it's an open carry state that police officers now perceive more items that are not guns to be guns because i want to remind people, donovan louis didn't have a gun. >> not at all. what i'm saying is that when police officers leave their homes every day that that is always in the back of their mind, and that's what has to be taken into account with respect to the reasonable police officer. it's not asking a question of what an officer could have done or should have done but rather it is what a reasonable police officer could have believedabout the situational need to use deadly face. standing as ricky anderson as he stood on tuesday morning with the knowledge that he had at that time as existing as it was. >> all right, kaitlyn stevens,

listen, i know this is early in the case, and there's some things you can't discuss. i appreciate the conversation. i'd like to continue it as we learn more about this case. that you think so much for being with me tonight. and we'll be right back.

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and it's never too late to join them. get $450 off any new purchase of an eligible samsung device with xfinity mobile. or add a line to your plan today at xfinitymobile.com that's it for us tonight. "don lemon tonight" starts right now. >> so you know, i have friday off, right? >> me too. >> oh, you do? >> i was just going to say, let's see if you know. ♪ i'm so glad we had this time together ♪ >> carol burnett show. >> victor, yay, i like it. >> good night, everybody. >> see you quizzing me. quizzing me on live television. >> i thought you were going to sing it with me. >> no. >> anyways. >> all right. >> see you, vicky lawrence. talk to you later.