john berman here in for anderson. and we should point out right off the top the presence of 48 empty folders at mar-a-lago marked classified does not automatically imply 48 missing documents. however, that fact revealed in a more detailed inventory from the search at mar-a-lago certainly does raise questions. questions, for example, about how material marked classified was stored and kept track of at the former president's resort, if at all. questions about why the material marked classified that was found had been intermingled with press clippings, clothing and other knickknacks. questions about what the former president was doing with 11,000 documents that were recovered. federal district judge aileen cannon released the catalog while she makes a decision on whether to appoint a special master to review the material, which william barr called it a

waste of time and a red herring. he also said loud and clear that his old boss brought this on himself by taking what did not belong to him, refusing to give it back and he seemed to suggest perhaps obstructing justice with his legal team deceiving investigators. >> i think the driver on this from the beginning was, you know, loads of classified information sitting in mar-a-lago. people say this was unprecedented. it's also unprecedented for a president to take all this classified information and put them in a country club, okay? and how long is the government going to try to get that back? they jawbone for a year. they were deceived on the voluntary actions taken. they then went and got a subpoena. they were deceived on that. they feel. and the facts are starting to show that they were being jerked around. and so how long -- you know, how long do they wait? >> the answer, as we now know, was more than a year before seeking a search warrant. the former attorney general had

more to say on the subject. we'll play some of it for you shortly. first, kara scannell joins us with more on what the judge revealed today. kara, this detailed inventory from the fbi's search at mar-a-lago, what does it show? >> well, what we really learned from this out of the gate is the volume of documents that the former president had at mar-a-lago. i mean you remember he had given 15 boxes to the national archives in january. this is now 37 containers or boxes. what we're learning is in them is a lot of information. some of it classified, some of it not classified. i'm just going to run through some of this because the numbers are really interesting. there were 54 documents marked secret, 18 marked top secret, 31 marked confidential, and then these empty folders. there's a total of 90 of them. 48 that were marked classified, 42 that were marked return to staff secretary or military aide. and more than 11,000 government documents that were not marked classified but were -- they

belonged to the government, they don't belong to the former president. so all of that is the big picture of it. then what we also learn is all of this was co-mingled in these boxes. i mean, if you take an example. look at number two, the second box. this was found in the former president's office. within that there are 99 newspaper and magazine clippings dated from 2017 to 2018. there's confidential documents, there's secret documents, top secret documents. some of these nonclassified but government documents. and then these empty folders. 43 marked classified and the other ones. and what we've seen in some of these other boxes because they're all detailed. there's clothing, there's gifts, there's books. it just shows that this was all just shoved together, not compartmentalized, these top secret /secret documents not kept in a secure fashion as they are expected to be because telephone sensitivity of the information within them.

>> a lot of paper and knickknacks all jammed together. all right. these folders, these empty folders marked classified, what do we know about them? >> we don't entirely know a lot about them. we know these folders exist and they have these markings on them. but what's really unclear, and some of my colleagues have spoken to former and current intel officials, it's really unclear if these were just folders that were reused because they're off a way that people transport a classified document so no one with a prying eye can perhaps read it or see what's on it. or, it's not clear if these are -- does this suggest that documents are missing? you know, could they have been taken out and this shell of the folder is what's left? but it's hard to really know based on just this description here. it's very possible they're just empty folders. >> so we were sitting next to each other at 6:00 a.m. this morning and i asked you this question. when is the judge going to rule on the special master? any sense of when that can happen? >> look, she said yesterday in court she would make her ruling in due course. is due course today? i think the clock is ticking on today. i think given that there's not

precedent for this kind of decision of a special master, particularly involving a review of executive privilege, it's something that she's going to want to take her time on, i would suspect. although she's had a lot of time to think about this and has had a lot of input from both sides, it's possible there could be an appeal here. we don't know depending on how she describes it what the terms are going to be, how both sides will react to it. so i'm sure there's going to be a lot of care being taken into this. but your guess is as good as mine. >> that same answer as 6:00 this morning. kara scannell, thank you for all your hard work all day long. staying on the theme, just in on what happened shortly after the mar-a-lago search, former white house chief of staff mark meadows began turning over items to the national archives. this is different, right? so let's get the reporting on this from cnn's kristen holmes. she's been working this story and joins us now. kristen, what have you learned? >> these are brand new details that show the level of interaction between meadows and

the national archives as well as what exactly he submitted. sources tell our colleagues that jamie gain gel, evan perez and me that within a week of that search at mar-a-lago, meadows submitted text messages and emails to the national archives. it was less than a dozen emails. now, this was actually part of an earlier request for all electronic correspondence that falls under the presidential records act. what's interesting here is the archives realized that it hadn't gotten everything from meadows when it saw what meadows had actually turned over to the january 6th committee. that's when they started putting in that earlier request. one thing to pay attention here is that meadows has actually been working with the archives on a different level as well. that's something we learned through this reporting. for about a year, because he is one of trump's designees to the archives. so he was called by another designee last summer, a year ago, to try to help get trump to give these records back to the national archives. so kind of a weird position for

him to be in, turning it over and then also he was trying to help with the trump angle of this. >> and the timing of this. is this a coincidence? what do you know about that? >> well, that's obviously the big question here. now, we have one source familiar with the matter who says that this is totally a coincidence, that the search had nothing to do with meadows' decision to turn over these correspondence. but another source, who is also familiar, said it could be a coincidence but we did get far more after the search than we had ever gotten before with this request. >> all right. interesting. i'm sure there will be more reporting from you and your team on this very subject. kristen holmes, thank you very much. perspective now from senior analyst elie honig. who served as a federal prosecutor for the southern district of new york. also cnn legal and national security analyst carrie cordero, she is a former counsel to the assistant attorney general for national security. carrie, first, just your reaction to kristen's reporting on mark meadows' correspondence with the national archives. does that raise any red flags to you?

>> well, it is -- the timing is interesting. you know, it's hard to draw too many conclusions from it. but the fact that a physical search was executed, that a warrant was issued from the judge to be able to search the former president's residence with respect to documents that needed to be returned to the archives most likely i would think got the attention of mark meadows and his lawyers. so even if they were in a process already engaging with the archives, i wouldn't be surprised if we learned down the road that that sped up their compliance with the archives' request. >> elie, back to the search at mar-a-lago specifically, you look at everything the fbi recovered, not only the top secret documents but the more than 11,000 non-classified government documents. as a prosecutor, what can you conclude from this? where does it lead you? >> john, it raises a lot of questions for me. my attention is drawn immediately to those empty file folders for classified information that you were just discussing with kara.

i think there's a lot of questions you set out to answer. first of all, did they ever contain documents or did they ever contain documents while at mar-a-lago? not necessarily, but perhaps some of them did. so what documents? where were they? were they recovered where else at mar-a-lago or are they gone? that would be of course the most concerning outcome. and then finally, if you can ascertain, if you're thinking about charging somebody, you need to know who handled them, who mishandled them, what they did with them and can you show the relevant intent and knowledge. for that you'd have to talk to your witnesses, probably want to look at that surveillance tape that doj subpoenaed. you might even try to send some of the documents for forensics or fingerprinting or dna, though you would not see if somebody touched them. so i think there's a whole bunch more questions raised by the new filing. >> that's just the empty folders there. carrie, you look at all the paperwork, there's so much material there. there's just a lot of material. >> there's a lot of material, it's a lot of documents. and remember, these documents belong to the united states government.

and that's really the basic premise that is underlying all of this. i do think that the fact that so much of this information was classified, including lots of information at top secret levels, compartmented programs, really highly classified information, that is what would have lit the fire under the justice department to at some point say we can't wait anymore. we've been engaged in a dialogue for as long as we could. we need to get these documents back and do the damage assessment led by the intelligence community to figure out where this information may have been viewed, gone, been seen by, or not. you know, that would be important too, for them to determine, you know what, these documents just sat in the offices and basements or locations within mar-a-lago and didn't get out. that would be important to know as well. but at some point i think the classification level of the documents and the volume of classified information is what is driving the intensity of this investigation, which clearly is ongoing. >> elie, the former attorney

general, bill barr, said they jawboned for more than a year over this before they ultimately issued the search warrant there. i want to play a little bit more of what he said on fox news. >> i frankly am skeptical of this claim that i declassified everything. because frankly, i think it's highly improbable and, second, if in fact he sort of stood over scores of boxes, not really knowing what was in them and said i here by declassify everything in here, that would be such an abuse that -- and show such recklessness that it's almost worse than taking the documents. >> elie, you literally wrote the book on this guy. you wrote a book on the former attorney general william barr. does what he said surprise you? >> well, john, i'm going to say something i rarely say. i agree with bill barr on this. i think he hit the nail on the head on this. bill barr is the ultimate unitary executive guy. in his view the president has the ultimate power in the executive branch.

i'm sure he is of the view the president has unlimited power to declassify. but what bill barr is saying there is an important distinction. even if the president has unlimited power to declassify, there is no evidence and plenty of counter of evidence to this notion that he actually did it. you can have the power but if you didn't exercise it when you were president, you can't exercise it now in 2022. i agree with bill barr on that and i agree with him on the earlier clip that we played. he can understand as a former attorney general that basically doj got strung along over a year, jawboned to use his colorful expression. i think he's right when he essentially concludes doj had no choice but to go in and execute that search warrant. >> and carrie, one other thing he said, bill barr, the whole idea of a special master is a red herring and a waste of time. part of his reasoning is the justice department has already gone through the documents. do you agree with that? >> he understands the way investigations work and the fact that the justice department had

implemented a taint team to review any possible attorney/client information. which really there was nothing about this search that would have raised the level of potential attorney/client information. so yes, he's right. a special master at this point is not needed in my judgment. it seems like in his judgment as well. really the longer that the judge goes on to consider it, the justice department just reviews more and more information. at this point they have even said in their pleadings that they have completed, completed their preliminary review. one other point real quick, john, on the point that former attorney general barr was making on the declassification. when documents were declassified, they actually change in their appearance. lines are drawn through the classification markings. i think what is shown so far through the photograph and other information is that there is literally no physical evidence that supports the assertion that any kind of declassification was actually done. >> no indication that we've seen. elie honig, carrie cordero,

thank you both for being with us. have a wonderful weekend. >> thanks. next, two of the former president's top white house attorneys go before the january 6th grand jury. what they potentially had to offer, as well as the intricacies of obtaining testimony from attorneys, attorneys who worked in the white house. later, mexico, 43 students vanish under dark and highly suspicious circumstances. now nearly eight years later, the country's former attorney general is under arrest and the details surrounding it are just stunning. with fidelity income planning, a dedicated advisor can help you grow and protect your wealth, even when you're not working. they'll look at your full financial picture and help you create a flexible strategy designed to balance growth potential and guaranteed income. so you can stop worrying about the future and enjoy the life you've created. that's the planning effect. from fidelity. (man 1) oh, it looks like we're in a screen saver. (man 2) but we need to go higher. (man 1) higher.

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♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ no shortage of other significant developments in the many investigations and court cases surrounding the former president. item one, a federal judge rejected to a new trial in steve bannon's case. not being able to compel a variety of lawmakers to testify. the judge today ruled the testimony would not have been material and that the jury's instructions did not constitute a miscarriage of justice. now, the second item tonight

probably overshadows the first. two of the former president's top white house lawyers going before the january 6th federal grand jury, but not without a little bit of a legal production. cnn's sarah murray joins us now with the latest on pat cipollone and patrick philbin's road to the witness chair. sara, what can you tell us about these conversations that the pats as they're known had with the justice department leading up to their appearance with the grand jury? >> these are both former white house lawyers in the trump white house, they were there the final days of the trump administration and pushed back on efforts to overturn the 2020 election so they're important witnesses in part of this criminal investigation in what led up to the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. they've also spent weeks wrangling with the justice department over potential executive privilege issues, what questions they would be willing to answer, what questions they were not likely to answer, and of course we don't know the answer to any of that, what they actually decided to answer before the grand jury because those proceedings are secret,

john. >> so both cipollone and philbin did both previously testify to the house select committee where they did decline to answer some questions because of executive privilege as you said. what's different, though, speaking to a congressional committee versus testifying before a grand jury? >> what's different is that this is a criminal investigation and so there are just narrower opportunities to be able to assert privileges, including things like executive privilege. by the time you are subpoenaing people like pat cipollone, pat philbin, prosecutors have already been before a judge and said here is our probable cause that a crime was committed. we are investigating this potential crime, and so that ends up giving these prosecutors more of a window to question these witnesses in a way we don't see in the congressional committees. >> sara murray, thank you as always. for helping us understand. joining us now cnn contributor john dean, white house counsel during the nixon administration and star witness at the watergate hearings. so john, as you know, both pat cipollone and pat philbin testified to the january 6th select committee and the hearing shows they pushed back on the efforts to overturn the

2020 election and opposed the proposal to replace the attorney general with someone willing to look into false claims of election fraud. so how damning who you think their grand jury testimony potentially could be for the former president? >> well, i think they have a lot of knowledge. they certainly have knowledge of the scheme to replace the attorney general with a pliant lower level department of justice assistant attorney general. they have knowledge of the fake elector scheme. they have knowledge, i think, of the eastman memo that was used with pence. they have knowledge of the insurrection and what the president was doing that day. so they're knowledgeable. the question is they withheld their statements or conversations with trump before the january 6th committee. that may or may not be something they had to testify to in front of the grand jury. the grand jury can resolve these issues very quickly. the threat for the january 6th committee was having to litigate

it. here it gets litigated before the grand jury. you go to the chief judge who opens his courtroom just for this hearing and he will resolve it right there. they didn't want to do that. so they're walking the line between attorney/client -- when it was attorney/client, when it was executive privilege, and how much they could say in that line. that's what the negotiations obviously were with the department of justice that were preagreed to and that's -- apparently there was no effort to go to the chief judge to do to deal with any privileges. >> talk to me more about that, though. talk to me about why in a grand jury proceeding executive privilege specifically wouldn't be necessarily as protective if cipollone and philbin didn't want to talk? >> the reason is called u.s. versus nixon. richard nixon claimed executive

privilege on his tapes, and the grand jury had issued a subpoena for the tapes, so it was a grand jury request for nixon's information. so he -- that's what obliterated for all practical purposes presidents using executive privilege for grand jury proceedings. the high court weighed it. they said the grand jury is more important than the president's privilege to confidentiality, and that was the end of the story. so that's long been the practice. that happened in the clinton administration and other places where there were investigations by grand juries. so the line that has not been fully resolved is the attorney/client privilege. here, were they giving the president advice not to commit criminal activity and trying to get him on the straight line? and that would be a protected privilege. so that's the area -- the gray area that i suspect they were working in.

>> i saw the smirk on your face when you started to cite u.s. versus nixon. talking to you about that is like talking to homer about the odyssey, so thank you for illuminating the situation. former white house counsel pat cipollone, the highest ranking white house aide known to appear before the grand jury. does it indicate more will soon be there? >> it could well. i think that this grand jury has been moving for many, many months. we didn't know how high it had gone until recently. but i think they're probably getting towards the peak right now and the question is who are going to be the targets and who are going to be the subjects and who are going to be the witnesses. >> john dean as always, thank you for being with us tonight. >> thank you, john. we're just weeks away from the midterms and president biden is taking a new approach to say the least in his tone against the former president and his followers. the details ahead.

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after offering sharp criticisms of what he calls maga republicans during his primetime speech last night, president biden had this to say today. >> i don't consider any trump supporter to be a threat to the country. i do think anyone who calls for the use of violence, fails to condemn violence when it's used,

refuses to acknowledge when an election has been won, insists upon changing the way in which the rules you count votes, that is a threat to democracy. >> this comes after biden warned about the former president's influence on his supporters during yesterday's speech suggesting the future of u.s. democracy was at risk. his speech also highlighted a shift in his tone just weeks before the midterms. biden is amping up his criticism of the former president and his followers, but insists his primetime address was not political. with us, cnn political analyst and journalist carl bernstein. author of "chasing history: a kid in the newsroom." so, carl, the white house is pushing back on criticism that biden's speech was too political. what was your assessment of it all? >> first of all, the beginning of the speech had a deadly accuracy in terms of picturing trump and a good deal of his movement as outside of any

mainstream tradition in our politics, a radical tradition at odds with democracy. it's a fact. it is a fact that many, if not most of the republicans in the senate agree with. they won't say it outloud, but it is a fact. but then i think he missed a great opportunity, and that was to say i want to see, we want to see even in our party a republican party of its traditional conservative values that contributes to the debate of where our democracy should go in this country. i think he really missed something there where, look, to win, the democrats need to bring over some republicans. and biden knows as well as anybody that there are a lot of traditional republicans who might respond to such a proposition. i just think he missed it. and then his speech went into a deeply partisan tone that was

not there at the beginning when he was talking about the history of the country, the history of the presidency, the history of the congress of the united states. he went way off and then started patting his own administration on the back. i think he lost an opportunity there and a lot of people who might have gone, who are republicans and embraced what he was saying. >> part of what we heard last night is something that he's been building on over the last week or so in some of his appearances, at least two of them in pennsylvania so far. he seems to deliberately wanting to take on what he calls maga republicans. do you think or what do you think of that calculation heading into the midterms? >> i think that it's the right calculation, but more than that i think morally and in terms of historical principle, it's the right thing to do. look, let us take a look at what donald trump has said aloud for the last six years since he began his campaign.

it is so outside the mainstream of any republican candidate for president, of any president of the united states. this is a radical republican party today that has followed donald trump's lead. there has never been a capture of one of the two political parties by such radical forces as those who have followed trump blindly down the path. it's not to say that any republican, all republicans, including those in the senate and the house, go along with the awful, undemocratic, authoritarian aspects of what is so basic to trump and what he mouths. no. but again, i think biden is right to say here is what is at issue, the future of democracy in america. i think it's true. >> so both joe biden and donald trump are in and around pennsylvania this week. donald trump is heading there

this weekend. do you think this is a precursor to a biden/trump 2024 rematch? >> well, i think that donald trump would like to make it that way. some of that will depend on the grand jury. some of that will depend on the justice department. some of that will depend on what the press does with the information that we now know about what trump did with these records, with these national security secrets, and we're going to learn more. and we're going to learn more about the january 6th insurrection and point toward the president of the united states embracing sedition. was he a seditious president? this is going to be up to the voters. and there's an awful lot of evidence that might convince a majority of voters and more than a majority, because you can even win the presidency without a majority of the voters, but

trump has targeted and his people have targeted various states where they think they can win even without a majority and it is with these beliefs that biden called undemocratic. it could happen. so yes, is pennsylvania a precursor? if you look at who is running for the senate and what the message of dr. oz has been in pennsylvania, yeah, it is. and look at what's happened in the primary elections throughout the country. trump's people have prevailed in these elections. his message, his anti-democratic message, his message that the election was stolen, a lie, a demonstrable lie, has been embraced by so many republican candidates who are saying, yeah, i'll follow donald trump blindly down this path. >> carl bernstein, thank you so much for being with us this friday night. >> good to be with you.

new details out of the investigation into the disappearance of 43 mexican students who went missing nearly eight years ago. cnn's david culver went to mexico where the families are still demanding justice after a recent high-profile arrest. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ my most important kitchen tool? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger.

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after years of searching for answers, the parents of 43 mexican students who vanished nearly eight years ago are welcoming the arrest of mexico's former attorney general. the students had been visiting a town in southern mexico when local and federal authorities intercepted their buses. carom led the investigation into

the students' disappearance. his arrest came one day after a government report referred to the incident as a state crime based on thousands of documents, text messages, phone records and more. according to a statement from the families, his arrest is a significant step in helping them, quote, know the truth and obtain justice. but the fate of the students remains a mystery. cnn's david culver went to mexico where the parents are still fighting for answers. >> reporter: eight years since they have last seen their sons. parents of mexico's missing 43 students marched through the capital's streets, clinging tight to painful memories and demanding justice. a shocking government report released last month concluded their children were victims of a state-sponsored crime carried out and covered up in part, the report says, by some of mexico's most powerful. the parents' trip to mexico city started some 200 miles away. a nearly five-hour drive through winding, mountainous roads, deep into the mexican state of guerrero.

heavily with corruption and violence. the u.s. government warns its citizens not to travel here. along this highway that cuts through the state capital, you can see the graffiti of activism. people demanding justice for their friends. the 43 attended a teachers college near a small town. here they educate the mostly impoverished rural indigenous communities and inspire activism. these are among the last images recorded of the young men, seen learning farming skills, laughing, smiling, just days before the horrors that unfolded on september 26, 2014. while on their way to commemorate a deadly protest from decades earlier, the bus carrying the students was reportedly stopped by police. rare footage from one of the

students only shows the start of the encounter. what happened next is shrouded in mystery and tragedy. police reportedly opened fire and 43 of the students gone. government officials initially concluded local police detained and handed the students over to members of a local cartel, who then murdered them and incinerated their bodies. their parents have never believed that. the authorities don't say anything, this father tells me. that's why we need to continue fighting. we will not back down until we know something. over the years, parents search for clues in guerrero's mountains, held monthly marches in the capital, took over toll plazas in protest, brought their pleas to top government officials. four years after the students' disappearance sparked international outcry, president andres manuel lopez obrador took office and immediately launched

a truth commission to investigate. another four years passed, and just weeks ago that very commission unveiled stunning revelations, stating an order was given to carry out the ambush. it didn't say who gave the order or why, but the report links federal, state and local authorities to the disappearance and execution of the students. the very next day, the former attorney general was arrested here in mexico city. shocking, given that he once led the investigation. just hours after that, a court issued more than 80 arrest warrants against military, police and cartel members. sheltered from the mountain rain, 43 classroom seats hold the missing. his son and two nephews. if we just let it go there won't be justice, he tells me. that is to say the same thing will happen again and again.

that's why we're fighting and that's why every month dozens of parents weighed down by unresolved grief board buses and make the trek eerily similar to the one their sons attempted. once on the streets of the capital, emotions surface. this aging generation, exhausted, just relentless, now carrying the children's fight for justice. >> david culver joins me now. david, even with this new government report, there are still so many unanswered questions. do we know what the families of the missing students plan to do next? >> they want convictions here, john. it's been eight years. they have seen no one criminally punished in the disappearances of their sons and so that's what they're pushing forward with. part of that is because of the level of corruption we're talking about here in mexico as well as the influence of cartels. we saw that firsthand when we were down there. we spoke with locals who said limit your time outside, this can get dangerous really quickly.

just a few days before we got there, a local journalist was focused on state politics at that level, cartel influence, was gunned down. the parents don't care, though. they are determined to move forward. they know the risk, they see the threats here, and they are advocating for some justice to come here and they will do so until they see as many people responsible behind bars for life, as they tell me, john. >> the truth and the facts can be dangerous there. david culver, terrific reporting. nice to see you this evening. legendary tennis star serena williams playing tonight at the u.s. open, hoping to take the next step to her 24th grand slam title before possible retirement. we have a live report from the open, next. ♪strutting your way into my heart♪ ♪take your hat off make yourself at home♪ ♪how about stay the night then strut on home♪ ♪day 1, i'm in love with your strut♪ ♪day 2, i'm in love with your strut♪

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talk tonight and has been all week at the u.s. open here in new york. right now she is playing in a third round match up against ajla tomljanovic at arthur ashe stadium. the crowd is cheering on arguably the greatest women's tennis player of all time. williamsto be on her 24th grand what could be her last u.s. open as she looks toward possible retirement from the sport. from outside the open is athena cho. where are we, so far? >> reporter: it is super exciting that the crowd is on the edge of their seat. serena williams lost the first match, 7-5, but is up 5-2 in the second match. we are seeing a different serena in the second match. you saw a few aces and big winners in the first match, but

we are seeing more, a lot fewer mistakes, a lot more of that vintage serena tennis that we have been hearing about. it is so interesting. this crowd, i was right outside the entrance. there were big screens, tons of people, waiting, moaning and groaning with every miss, cheering with every single point . the points are almost like winning a game, almost like winning the set. there's a lot of excitement, a lot of people hanging on, watching to see if serena williams can win this match and win the whole thing. i talked to several fans who came from far and wide, like maryland, new york, saying they believe she will not only win, but certainly could go all the way. >> dropped the first, struggling to fight back in the second. any further clarity on whether or not this will be her last tournament? >> reporter: she has been vague. she says she is being vague on

purpose. yes, she hinted strongly that she is ready to evolve away from tennis, in that vogue article she wrote, but since then, in a few of the press conferences we have heard, she said, let's see what happens. i still have something. certainly, if she were to win, you have to think that it would make her think again about stepping away, but among the fans i spoke with who said yes, we believe she can win, i will follow her lead and take a game by game, day by day. no real clarity, but, i believe a big win would mix up the calculation, a little bit. >> whatever it is, it will be on her terms. so glad you are there, thank you. joining us is william c roden, writer at large and a sports columnist for the new york times. it's an honor to meet you. what is your reaction to the match, so far? >> oh man. this is so wonderful. i have a house full of people. it reminds me of what my father

used to talk about, when they would crowd around the radio and listen to joe lewis fights. this is kind of what this is. people on the edge of their seats, every volley. there is so much, so many people love her so much and identify with her bid for me, as long as i have been doing this, venus and serena, for me, represent tennis. i think that what we are seeing, now, somebody said she was the greatest, one of the greatest women's tennis players of all time. she is one of the greatest tennis players of all time, regardless of gender. we are seeing, whether she wins, loses, draws, we are seeing at one of the great careers, one of the great sports careers of all time play out. i think that it is really remarkable, to see what she is doing. >> she is one of the greatest athletes of all time, full stop. you wrote, recently, that she redefined the sport.

i love the idea that she and venus williams are tennis. she is also redefining, you think, what it means to retire. what do you mean? >> well, i think that, the thing that resonated with me was, i am terrified of the r word. i don't use it. that is what she said. she said she hates that word. she is the word, evolve. i like that. that is what we all do. we evolve from one thing to the other. she is evolving to something else. the reality is that, particularly as an athlete, if you are a writer or artist, musician, we can do this until our 70s, 80s, 90s. the reality is that at 40 something, she is pretty much reaching the end of the line, evolving, retiring, i get it. so, she has so much. i think that what we are seeing

in the past week is just somebody who loves what she dies. she has been doing this since she was eight, and what is so great about this, she is teaching these all these young players, they are all after her and she is and you know what, i am not passing the torch. you have to take it. we have seen two young women wilts, because all of a sudden, they look across the net, and they say, this is serena. this is serena at her best. the crowd is for her, and i think what they see, what they have seen this last week, this is what she has been for 20 years. she has had that target on her back for 20 years. whoever wins the tournament, the women's tournament this week, is only really just, they are a one time winner. what she is teaching them is

that there is something to be said for winning over and over and over, and fighting. i think she is teaching, win or lose, she is teaching these young women coming after her a tremendous lesson. >> she has taught generations of young women. young athletes, men and women. in order to speak to you. thank you. >> the pleasure is mine. a new fight for actress and activist, jane fonda, ahead. any further questions? uh uh! one up the power of liquid with tide pods ultra oxi. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission.

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legendary actress and activist, jane fonda, says she's been diagnosed with non- hodgkin's lymphoma and started six months of chemotherapy. this is a cancer of the immune system and she is nearly 85 years old. quoting from her interim account, "this is a very treatable cancer. 80% of people survive, i feel lucky. " she said she is handling treatment well and says she will not let this interfere with her climate activism, and,