keome others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. all right. look at this. this is the sharpest video yet of the titanic. 8k from a recent expedition. the extra detail is expected to help scientists study how wreckage decays year by year at the bottom of the atlantic. it's also just plain cool. cnn's special report "the baby cnn's special report "the baby business" starts now. -- captions by vitatac -- www.vitac.com >> ann>> announcer: the >> ann>> annou following is a >> cnn special report.g is a a baby girl was born this morning in norfolk, virginia. she weighed 5 pounds, 12 ounces. >> elizabeth carr is the first

baby to be born in the united states conceived outside the human body. conception occurred in a petri dish. >> made headlines around the world and launched the modern day fertility industry in the u.s. >> since elizabeth's birth, secretaries at the eastern virginia medical centers in vitro clinic have received between 600 and 700 phone calls from couples wanting to join the waiting list. >> last december, elizabeth celebrated her 40th birthday. according to the most recently cdc statistics, an estimated one in six couples without children are infertile. it's no wonder that the number of people using assisted reproductive technology to expand their families has doubled over the past decade. i know what it's like. my husband and i tried for three years to have a child. two miscarriages and three rounds of failed ivf cycles

later, i was emotionally devastated. until 2005 when ivf worked and my twins were born. and 13 months later, the bigger shocker, i was pregnant with my third child naturally. filled with gratitude, i began volunteering with resolve, the national infertility association. >> yeah! boom! >> we've been trying for so long. >> i'm single and i just know that i found the perfect donor sperm. >> i'm going to carry my friend's baby. >> this is my husband, miles, and he's pregnant. >> hi, my name is phil, and i have male infertility. >> as in love as we are, you can still not be the perfect partnership when it comes to creating an embryo. >> infertility is, for many people, a source for great suffering.

responding to that suffering is also big business. >> and that business is booming. as women are giving birth later, the median age in the u.s. has risen to 30. that's three years older than it was three decades ago. and the fertility field continues to expand by helping all kinds of families. >> this really is the medicine of miracles. you know, it fills empty cribs. it frees families from terrible diseases. and it's not only different sex couples who struggle conceiving. it's also lgbtq couples and single people. >> but with all the incredible success stories, there are also tragic stories. >> a couple is suing after an embryo mixup ended up with them giving birth to a stranger's child. >> a fertility clinic mistakenly implanted their embryo into another woman.

>> she thought she was being insimilar nated with a white man's sperm, so the baby would look like her partner. she found out she was mistakenly inseminated with an african american man's sperm too. >> now there are calls to strengthen regulations on an industry that many americans depend on. >> approximately one in every 50 kids born in the united states today is conceived in a fertility clinic or lab. >> the errors that happen within the labs of fertility clinics are a major problem. there's virtually no oversight, no reporting requirements for when something goes wrong. >> the growth at this rate in an industry that is so complex will always pose danger. >> there should be more oversight with everything that we do. but i really feel like it should be consumer driven. >> we're in the wild west days of the american fertility industry. the problem is that this is an

industry where one little mistake can change people's lives forever. ♪ >> we were a young couple, high school sweethearts. >> we were made aware of david's sterility before we got married. >> you all were going through this in the early '90s. did you know anybody else who was struggling at that time with infertility. >> no, we weren't aware of a single person who struggled with it. by obgyn told me about artificial donor insemination. it seemed like a miracle opportunity for me to carry a child and for us to have a family. >> we both talked about how we would like to find similar characteristics to who i was,

blood type, height, weight, interests. >> they narrowed down the profiles and opted to pay a premium for the lengthier, more detailed medical histories of perspective donors. but it would take decades to learn that those records were virtually meaningless. >> no major illnesses, no mental health issues, no hospitalizations. it was just a picture of perfect health. athletic and into sports and smart. donor 1558 checked every box. >> january 20, 1993. their son, steven, was born. she was everything they had hoped for. >> steven was always, like, a cuddly, cuddly baby. he walked early. he met all of his milestones. >> when did you start to think that something was wrong? >> we really started to think that something was simply not

right, started around age 15. >> he went from having a girlfriend to captain of the football team to when he hit 15, almost like a complete change and he started getting into trouble with the law, using drugs, marijuana. >> years later, the gunners would learn that marijuana could have triggered steven's rapid mental health decline due to a genetic predisposition from his donor that they knew nothing about. >> we reacted like most parents. we, you know, tried to get him help. >> therapy, doctors. >> by the time he was 17, we had taken him to his first rehab. >> there were different doctors, so each one would present with the same question. is there a history of schizophrenia. they didn't say mental illness. they would say, schizophrenia. and we would say, no. no. there's not. >> right. >> so, they always asked you if there was a family history, and when you said, no.

we even know the donor's history, no. and the doctors said to you, that doesn't make sense. >> yes, yes. and i was like, absolutely not. in fact, with the donor, they went back three generations. my wife's never -- so it always -- the doctors would get confused and they would diagnose it as drug abuse or oppositional defiance disorder. >> by age 19, steven was diagnosed with schizophrenia. he spiralled over the years, in and out of psychiatric facilities, trouble with the law, violent episodes. but laura and david never gave up, trying to stabilize him, finding the right doctors, balancing the correct f medications. then on may 21, 2020, it all came crashing down. >> i walked in the house and could hear laura upstairs. and i ran to the stairs and i ran up, and she's in the bedroom. and she's on the phone. and i kept whispering at her, looking at her going, where is

he? and she finally -- she put the phone down and said, he's in the morgue. it turned out through the medical report it was fentanyl. unfortunately because of covid, we couldn't have a proper funeral. >> steven gunner had died of a fatal opioid overdose at age 27. after their son's passing, laura and david recalled a group they had heard of years prior, the donor sibling registry. >> imagine if you knew your father only by his code, not his name, the children of sperm donors. >> wendy cramer brought the teens together through her website, donorsiblingregistry.com. she created it with her son, ryan, to him find his own donor

dad. laura joined the registry, which was founded in 2000, and allows people to self-report and share their own information. >> i wanted to see pictures of steven's siblings. >> we missed him. >> yeah. and i was hoping to see his smile or features in somebody else. and i also knew that the other families needed to know steven's history. >> laura connected with other parents who had used donor 1558, offering to share steven's story with those who were interested. the gunners would ultimately learn that their son shared a donor with at least 19 other siblings. >> they had already been communicating about issues they had concerns about regarding their children. and they kind of connected the dots with each other long before we did. >> more than a year after their son's death, the gunners learned shocking details about donor

1558. he had also been diagnosed with schizophrenia. he had also been in a mental institution before he ever donated sperm. and he had also died of an opioid overdose at the age of 46. >> basically, the medical records that you were relying on were not true. >> they were completely not true. >> totally not true. >> there is no mechanism to check what the donor writes down. >> it's an honor system. >> it's an honor system. none of that information has ever been verified to be true. >> coming up, how the gunners learned more about their son's true medical history. and later -- >> do you know how many children have been conceived with your eggs over the years? >> so far the running count is 27. >> that's a lot.

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♪ after their son's death, laura and david gunner were on a mission to find out more about steven's true medical history. >> it didn't matter how hard we raised steven to be what he was, something came out that we couldn't stop. >> first, they connected online with other families who had used sperm donor 1558. and when one of those other parents used a commercial dna kit on their child, that led to

donor 1558's mother, their son steven's biological grand mother. >> i needed more information, so i wrote her a letter. >> what did you say in that letter? >> i told her that we understood, that we knew what she went through, and that we had no ill will towards her son. but i had questions. >> laura and donor 1558's mother corresponded for months. >> there were questions specifically on the self-reported donor history that had there been any checks, it would have been determined that it was not truthful. have you ever been hospitalized for anything other than a surgery? donor 1558 wrote, no. it was revealed to me by his mother that he spent an entire summer hospitalized in a psychiatric facility when he was

about 15. >> and so bottom line, he lied on the paperwork. >> he didn't have a little history. it was incredible, the history of his issues. >> at first we thought that maybe this was just something that happened in 1992. >> while there are strict rules on fertility clinics and accurate reporting of success rates, the fertility industry, it is highly regulated. pockets of it are. certifications and regulations in the lab, audits that are performed. some of these ancillary services, like sperm donation, could use more regulatory oversight. >> the fda requires that sperm is frozen for six months and tested for sexually transmitted diseases before being sold. but to this day, there are no other requirements for verifying donors' health claims. >> there was no law that was broken. >> what kind of business

wouldn't love to be able to market a product that's not true and then when they get caught and it's not true, just say, well, nobody said we had to tell the truth. >> if there were regulation, we might have seen medical history. we might have seen a vetting process by the cryo bank, which we didn't see and we still don't see. >> the attorneys said, all you can do is change the law. that's when we said, well, that's what we're going to do. >> from albany, new york, to washington, d.c., the gunners are fighting for new legislation. meanwhile, another family took their case all the way to the georgia supreme court. >> there are so many different kids out there that have gone through the donor process like i had, and i just want to be able to share experience and wisdom. >> this is 19-year-old alex norman and his mother, wendy, speaking to a class on

reproductive law at the university of san diego. alex is one of the only donor-conceived children to ever go public and go after a sperm bank for false records. much like young steven gunner, alex's mental health spiralled in his early teens. >> growing up, we had gone through what felt like 100 different therapists and s psychiatrists and medicines. and nothing was working. and i had been to mental institutions, and nobody knew what was going on. >> his older brother, andrew, who was conceived using a different anonymous donor, vividly remembers the hardest times. >> he would get really passionately angry about something to the point of threatening violence or threatening violence against himself. he chased me with a knife several times. >> amid that confusion and turmoil, alex began to wonder about his own genetics. >> about 14 ish, like a lot of

kids that age, i was trying to figure out who i was, got curious about my donor. >> growing up with lesbian parents, the norman boys always knew they were donor conceived. while older brother andrew has never been interested in learning more details, alex googled his donor, number 9623. >> he had lied about a lot of things on his donor profile that my mother had used and that i had used for medical information. >> a mentally ill ex-con lies to a sperm bank, creates 36 sperm bank children. >> he was a college dropout and had yet to earn his bachelor's degree, despite claiming on his application he was already working towards his phd. >> they learned the father donor had previously been diagnosed with bipolar with skits effective disorder, a condition that can be hereditary.

>> it is his donor, and how do i make it right? i'm a parent. how do i make it right? i can't make it right. >> so, i had to remind alex that none of us know who this guy is, but we know who he is. and he's the best brother that i could have ever been given. >> norman, who is now an adult, sued for misrepresenting the donor but was told he couldn't. that's because previous court rulings identified similar claims as wrongful births. so, this february, they appealed to the georgia supreme court. >> wendy and alex norman, and they're at the forefront of a legal challenge to a doctrine called wrongful birth. in half of the united states today, families can't even get

in the courthouse doors if reproductive misconduct was committed against them. the laws in those states say, you wanted a kid and you got one. they say that letting parents sue in these cases would be like they're standing up in court and saying they don't love their child or wish that he had never been born. >> i had heard the argument of, it harms the child, before. the way it has always been for me is that my mother loves me. she wants medical help for issues that i am dealing with. it's not complicated, and it never has been. >> doug fox is the law professor who invited the normans to his class. he's authored a book on the fertility industry and is host of the podcast "donor 9623," named for alex's donor. >> he was described as the

perfect donor, 6'4" neuroscience engineering student, who looked like tom cruise, had the iq of einstein. it turns out much of it was untrue. and the truth posed really serious risks for scores of families. >> the compensation for sperm donors can vary wildly, depending on location and which bank is used. but some men can make up to $1,500 a month for multiple donations. for buyers, the price per vile could be anywhere from $500 to just over $1,000. and there are upcharges, paying more for a lengthier albeit self-reported medical history, a baby picture, or an audio interview. >> donors are promised an easy, anonymous way to make serious money. so, if they're healthy, if they have higher education credentials, if they have a

clean criminal record, if they even speak more languages, they're told that their samples are more likely to sell, meaning they'll be asked to come back and make more money. so, it's not hard to see how this system at least allows, if not invites, misrepresentation. >> those misrepresentations are at the core of the norman's landmark suit. similar cases had been dismissed on wrongful birth grounds until the case went before the highest court in georgia in 2020. >> just to be clear what you're asserting, a sperm bank can completely misrepresent everything about the sperm it's selling and charge whatever amount of money based on those representations and completely lie to every customer it has, and nobody can do a thing about it? >> the court released its opinion on the case, ruling families can sue sperm banks for consumer fraud if they lie about

their donors. >> the ruling changed the way that reproductive law is viewed throughout georgia and has caused a lot of cascade effects in other states. >> xytex did not respond to cnn's request for comment. alex says he'll be filing his fraud suit soon. donor 9623 did not respond to cnn's request for this documentary, but he did speak to doug fox on his podcast in 2020. >> i know that they must feel like i betrayed their trust. and, you know, i think that's justified. and i feel terrible about it. i really do. >> for now, alex has no interest in meeting his biological father. coming up -- >> we're cutting it close. >> the booming business of egg freezing. at citi, it takes a financial commitment to companies who empower people to lift themselves up. it takes funding and building

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♪ come on in. welcome. there's cheese and wine and sparkling water. help yourselves. >> it's one part cocktail party, two parts fertility education. >> our fertility is 100% linked to our age. >> many of the women are in their 20s and 30s, and they're here to learn about the biggest growth area in the fertility

industry, elected egg freezing. >> is there any of that deteriora deteri deterioration after it's frozen at all? >> once it's out of our body and frozen, it's literally like pressing pause. >> freezing your eggs at a younger age will boost your chances of having a baby later in life. and that messaging is being marketed all over social media. >> the growth of elected egg freezing, that's been growing over 20% per year. i guess a cynic would call it marketing and an idealist would call it education. >> in 2012, the american society of reproductive medicine lifted its experimental label on egg freezing. >> yeah, man, we're cutting it close. >> now tens of thousands of american women freeze their eggs every year. >> i was single and 30, and i

just thought, better do it now because you never really know what's going to happen in the future with your fertility. >> the process is expensive. one egg freezing cycle can cost between $5,000 and $20,000, depending on medications and where you live. and storage fees are around $800 every year. >> the infertility business targets patients with infertility. the elective egg freezing business attracts every woman of reproductive age. >> egg freezing comes with the potential risk of ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, and only about 3% to 20% of patients go on to use their frozen eggs. >> there's a high percentage of women who freeze eggs who may never need them. >> is the promise, with egg freezing, ahead of where the actual science is? >> egg freezing is not an insurance policy. and i do believe that women are

going into it feeling as if it's an insurance policy and that it's a guarantee. >> i had really focused on my career from my early 30s. and i had tried a lot of dating services. i just hadn't met anybody. so, i decided to freeze my eggs right around 38. i absolutely had peace of mind. it gave me a new lease on life. from a dating standpoint, maybe i should move to new york. maybe i'll meet somebody there. it absolutely changed my outlook, and i felt a significant amount of confidence. >> four years after freezing her eggs, heather decided it was time to have a baby. she had one failed embryo transfer, then another. >> i absolutely felt like this was not the way it was supposed to work out. i thought i took the insurance plan. >> so, heather had gone to another clinic and she had

frozen her eggs there, and she learned the hard way that freezing eggs isn't a solution. there's no guarantee. >> after running out of frozen embryos and eggs, heather turned to dr. aimee. >> i look at dr. aimee and said, if you are me, and you're now 44, what would you do? she goes, i would use an egg donor or adopt an embryo. i said, adopt an embryo? never even heard of adopt an embryo. >> when another couple in her practice no longer needed to use their embryos, and with the woman's blessing, offered them to heather. >> so, tyra is my egg donor. and what struck me the most was that we kind of looked alike. 5'7", 5'8", had brownish color hair, olive complexion. she was so open and so authentic. and i knew that if i could have a child who represented a lot of

those traits, it would be amazing. >> that rare meeting is part of dr. aimee's overall philosophy on sperm and egg donors. she believes the consumers should be demanding far more than the industry standards. >> we should be asking for medical records of donors. there are more protections for you when you go buy a puppy than when you're picking sperm. >> a donor should actually want to go through a very strict certification process, where she has submitted all her medical records, swabbed for genetic testing, all her transcripts. >> critics say that additional donor verification can drive up costs for reproductive medicine. and less anonymity could turn off potential donors. >> i think it's worth the cost to give people the peace of mind that they're getting what they think they're getting. the implications of being an egg donor are life long. they're not life long just for the donor but also for the donor-conceived child.

>> bea >> 7 pounds 10 ounces, 20 inches long. >> mommy. >> it's funny, i haven't thought about tyra that much until recently. and she's amazing. i mean, tyra is this wonderful human who has a gift and has the ability of fertility that not all of us have. and she has made so many families and people happy. and complete. coming up, i sit down with tyra reeder, the prolific egg donor and gestational surrogate who has 27 known genetic children and counting.

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♪ >> do you see any birds?

>> i see jays. >> this is 38-year-old tyra reeder. over the years, she's had many jobs, from bar tending to logging to selling timeshares. but nothing compares to her work in the fertility field. >> people find me interesting. >> do you know how many children have been conceived with your eggs over the years? >> so far the running count is 27. >> 27 children? >> genetic that we know of. but that was a few years ago. >> that's a lot. >> they have embryos on ice that they can use at any given time. >> what do you think would most surprise people to learn about egg donation? >> the lack of regulation, the ability for me to have dozens and dozens and dozens of children in all the same cities. >> the american society of reproductive medicine's practice guidelines limit an egg donor to

six cycles in their lifetime. and there are suggested caps on offspring from an individual sperm or egg donor. >> the american society of reproductive medicine, they have a recommendation. 25 offspring per 800,000 people in the population. >> so, doing that math, in the greater bay area in california, with a population around 7.5 million, the hypothetical limit for one donor who followed asrm's guidelines could be as high as 234 children. this doctor is the chief medical officer for california cryo bank, one of the largest sperm banks in the world. >> back in the '80s and '90s, sperm banks sevened a community. and it's really something i think was hard to imagine a world in which we could ship sperm to 40 countries. >> but the bigger issue -- >> the guidelines aren't enforceable. they're just not. >> at the end of the day, a

business has the right to adopt those guidelines or not adopt those guidelines. they're not laws. >> by tyra's count, she's done 14 egg retrieval cycles over seven years with different clinics around the country. >> how many eggs did you normally produce in one cycle? >> my first time was 38. >> so, you got 38 eggs. i can't begin to tell you, as someone who struggled through this, that's like hitting the lottery. >> i had one donation that was 80 eggs. and then my last donation was 98. >> oh, my heavens. that is unheard of. >> about 60% of retrieved eggs mature enough to be frozen. and on average, patients aged 35 and younger freeze 15 eggs per cycle, while a patient over 40 freezes less than half of that. dr. aimee advised tyra to stop at age 32. >> why did dr. aimee put the

brakes on it? >> i think she's aware that long term it could have some serious effects. >> also in the long term, tyra is in touch with some donor families and remains open to others. >> i had the privilege to bring them in the world, and if they want to get to know me, i want to know who they are. >> when you see the pictures of the children that were created from your eggs, is there ever a pang of, that's my child? >> yeah. but it's just a very, like, proud moment, like, ah, they're so cute. >> retired from egg donation at age 32, tyra was soon presented with her next opportunity in the fertility field. >> the agency came to me and said, what would you think of carrying a baby for someone? and the more i got to thinking about it and learning about the intended parent, i went, you know, i can help someone else. it's just a lot more time and

consideration. >> it's not just ten days. it's nine months. >> tyra had been pregnant before at age 17. >> family friends of mine that couldn't conceive for years and years got to adopt my son in an open adoption. never in my mind did i regret it or wish i would have done it differently. >> why didn't you want to have a child of your own that you raised? >> i felt fulfilled being an aunt, and i'm lucky enough now to be a step mom. i'm fulfilled with other people's kids. >> as a gestational surrogate, tyra carried and gave birth to three children over the course of six years, none of whom share her genetics. >> did you enjoy the experience of being pregnant? >> i loved it. i was still bar tending, really enjoying myself, living my everyday life, paddle boarding, hiking, dating. >> hold on a second. explain that process.

>> if you meet somebody intelligent enough to realize, well, this isn't your child, in three or four months, you will no longer be pregnant and you will not be raising a baby, you're just working. this is your job. and the person i found, i married and he -- he got it. he understood. >> when you did all those cycles, did it feel like a business decision? >> yes and no. i was always financially comfortable, and that's another thing. they make sure that you're not on any welfare, food stamps, struggling to make ends meet. this should be extra income. >> are there official rules on who can be a surrogate? >> the american society for reproductive medicine puts out guidelines, but they're not hard and fast rules. >> jennifer white cofounded the reproductive alliance. its goal is to launch an accreditation body for surrogacy agencies. she's also an agency owner. >> how difficult is it to open a surrogacy agency?

>> not at all. you can stand out on the street corner and say, i'm a surrogacy agency. >> that's alarming. >> yes, it is. there is nothing that provides any oversights. >> while some states require agencies obtain a business license, there are no other requirements to create a surrogacy agency, which is responsible for finding surrogates, screening their medical history, matching them with intended parents, and brokering the legal and financial transaction. >> if you go online and you want to find an agency, it is impossible to know what a good one is, what a bad one is, what kind of reputation they have. >> high risks for high costs. the surrogacy process can cost intended parents upwards of $60,000 to $200,000 or more, depending on the circumstances. >> how do you see the fertility industry? would you make changes from everything that you've lived

through? >> i would love to see more long-term research on what us women are putting our bodies through. yes, a lot of amazing little children came of it that are perfectly healthy, but what is this going to cause me in another 10 or 20 years? you go by lots of titles. veteran, son, dad. -it's time to get up. -no. hair stylist and cheerleader. so adding a “student” title might feel overwhelming. but what if a school could be there for all of you? career, family, finances and mental health.

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that she was conceived since her teens. >> this is that. this is steve. i called him dad for 14, 15 years now. >> she uncovered the disturbing truth four years ago when her young son fell ill, she turned to a commercial dna kit to learn more about their medical history. >> i discovered that my biological father was actually my mother's fertility doctor, and not the sperm donor they selected. >> shockingly, even is not the only one. she found at least a dozen half phylogeny siblings all through that doctor. >> this really maps out where i am in this family tree. here, you can see all the people that i'm connected to. these are just the people that have tested >> when this happened to you and you got your bombshell, did you consider a criminal case against him?

>> i called attorneys and they tried to find a criminal path. they tried to find a simple course of action. there wasn't one. this is my half sister, jessica. >> i would think that your story is so rare that it is a one-off. this never happens. what have you learned? >> in the three years that i've been at this, i've identified over 60 doctors. these are people who have come to me and connect with me. >> one of those people is this person. >> did you know that you are going to get justice? >> her story is documented in netflix is our father, about an indiana doctor who secretly fathered 87 children. >> in 2018 when i figure this out, california was the only state that had any sort of fertility law. i was shocked. i decided to go with legislation and really make this about change is not about charges. >> that change has begun in at

least ten states. it is now a crime for a doctor to use any donor material without the patients explicit consent. there is a federal bill on the table. >> it would allow them to prosecute a doctor with a maximum of a ten-year prison sentence. >> how difficult is it to get legislation passed? >> critics and the industry, they don't want regulations because they are just operating so smoothly at this point. >> i really do believe that commercial dna testing has fix this problem. a doctor probably wouldn't do this, because the chance of getting caught is very high. laws can do more than just pass a bill. it is a trojan horse to talk to legislators about their problems. i'm giving them the education, i'm giving them the terminology, the language to talk about. this technology is taking off our laws are staying the same.

we are going to get a bigger and bigger gap. >> coming up, a victory for laura and david garner. at citi, it takes a financial commitment to companies who empower people to lift themselves up. it takes funding and building on our know-how to help communities grow. that's how citi is helping create a better future by committing one trillion dollars in sustainable finance by 2030. because it takes everything to reach zero poverty. ♪ ♪

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good morning, i want to thank

lauren for being here. >> donor self report, thanks self regulate. this was the standard in 1992 and nothing has changed since then. >> that is why i'm introducing today stevens law, this legislation will require sperm banks to verify medical records from potential donors and disclose all relevant information to recipients. >> they are pushing for change on all fronts. steven's law, on the federal level, and the donor conceived personal protection act in new york state. >> i simply want parents to be able to make the decision on accurate and truthful information, on whole knowledge. >> a degree of oversight that is enforceable is a good thing. >> while many in the initially say they recognize the need for more robust donor and consumer protection. >> what is in the bill is not the right answer to that

problem. >> critics say that legislation, such as this, will make futility medicine more expensive and decrease assets. >> he may inadvertently drive up the cost of producing a vial of sperm. or it may even put some of the smaller spring banks out of business, given the fact that we have a shortage of sperm donors, i think that is really bad for families. >> american medicine has been around for centuries and we have had a long time for laws and regulations to develop around that. the fertility industry has been around for a few decades. my hope is that we are now entering a time where the regulations and the supervision can catch up. what we have seen over the last decade or so is when we don't have regulations, when we don't have oversight, when problems happen, it can be traumatic. >> my hopes for this legislation is that it is passed.

and our son is remembered. >> we can't bring our son back hopes and change