she died. she raised me and was really a mom to me. >> watching her decline, watching all the dreams i'd had of giving her a house or having her live with me when i had kids one day, watching all that disappear was -- it was like nothing i'd ever experienced. it was a different kind of grief, different than my mom, different than my dad, different than my brother. >> i also talked to a wonderful filmmaker named kristen johnson, who's mom died of alzheimer's in 2007. her father now has dementia. you can find the podcast on apple podcasts or any place you listen to podcasts. the news continues. i want to hand it over to jake i want to hand it over to jake tapper and "cnn tonight." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

welcome to "cnn tonight." i'm jake tapper. and tonight we're less than a month, 27 days, away from one of the weirdest and least predictable midterm elections in modern memory. what's happening now and ending on election day, november 8th, is not typical. it's not. as of now -- it's not shaping up to be a wave for one party or another. no. it's more like a sharknado. now, typically, republicans would and should be feeling pretty good about their chances to retake both the house and the senate by significant margins, feeling good because things are bad. with high inflation and fears of a recession, voters are inclined to hold the party in power -- right now, that's democrats -- responsible and accountable. because phrases are up almost everywhere you look. life is more expensive. by which of course i mean life cereal, wheat and processed

wheat products up more than 20% year-to-year. and as humpty hump might say, straight butter baby, by which butter is up 30% august to august. and our friends in saudi arabia are ensuring we feel the pain at the pump. thanks, mbs, fist bump. >> i'm over it. >> prices are crazy. >> as president biden told me on last night's show, it could all very well get worse. >> i don't think there will be a recession. if it is, it will be a very slight recession. that is, we'll move down slightly. it is possible. i don't anticipate it. >> all that turmoil is reflected in a brand-new cnn poll showing that you, america, don't think economic conditions in the u.s. are good right now. you give president biden bad marks on the economy, and you think the government is not doing enough to stop a possible

recession. so, for democrats on the ballot, this is what they say in the biz. this is serious head winds, more like gale force winds, actually. put on those mittens, bernie. we should point out there are some issues where democrats might have an edge. they're putting a big portion on abortion rights, as roe v. wade is no longer theoretical and sweeping state legislatures. >> banning all abortions, even when a woman's life is at risk -- >> and paul young called abortion made up rights for women, i was personally disgusted. >> have no choice because ashley hensen decided for them. >> that might not be enough because polling shows republicans are favored on some of the issues voters care most about, not just the economy but also immigration and crime. so, you can see why, in your average swing congressional district or battleground state,

republicans would be feeling pretty good. until -- until -- until they head to their republican county pot luck and run into this guy, ohio republican house candidate r.j. ma juicy. you may have heard of him as falsely claiming to have served in afghanistan. or perhaps you know him from his career as a rapper. >> this is our last chance, this is the hill we die on. this the lie in the sand. united we stand. >> that is no humpty hump. but that performance is not nearly as disturbing as the fact that he went on fox wearing a qanon t-shirt -- qanon, the deranged conspiracy theory that a cabal of democrats and hollywood producers are part of a satanic, cannibalistic cult of

pedophiles. that qanon shirt is one that should have the sleeves that tie in the back. and that's what brings us to what biden's pollster, john anzalone, says is so far keeping the midterm election from being a complete republican romp, which theoretically it should be, given the economy and disapproval of the president. anzalone saying these midterms are a case of the head winds versus the head cases. now, maybe you don't like that framing. it does come from a democratic partisan. but anzalone is also acknowledging massive disapproval of his own party, particularly on the economy. and it's really essentially the same argument we heard from senator mitch mcconnell when he talked about candidate quality possibly keeping him from becoming republican majority leader again. candidates whose races are far more competitive than they should be given the givens. herschel walker in georgia, blake masters in arizona, dr. oz

in pennsylvania. and then, of course, there are those candidates who have fringe ideologies. yeah, the price of breakfast cereal is skyrocketing, but some of these candidates are coocoo for cocoa puffs. and singing from the donald trump election grievance song book. >> it is not right, there are hundreds of thousands of votes to consider as lawful votes, and we know they're illegal. >> it's not right, is correct. it's not right. that's inaccurate. unhinged lies born from donald trump's grievance that he lost. in his refusal to accept reality. >> all of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by embolden, radical left democrats. you don't concede when there's theft involved. >> it was after that speech, of course, when masses of trump supporters then stormed the capitol, leading to one of the darkest days in modern u.s.

history. and some of the folk who is played a role in that insurrection, they're on ballots across the country right now, such as doug mastriano, from the great commonwealth of pennsylvania. he comes from the farthest of the fringe right. he even hired the anti-semitic founder of the fringe social media company, gab, as a consultant. mastriano, the republican nominee for governor, he can be seen in this photo dressed as a confederate soldier, and in this one at the capitol on january 6th. >> voting integrity, wow. oh, my goodness. i've seen better elections in afghanistan. not hyperbole. >> he's right. it's not hyperbole. it's just utter crap. and in pennsylvania, the governor appoints the secretary of state to run elections. so, it's totally possible that an election liar could appoint the person who oversees elections in one of the most crucial battleground states in

america. a lot of this going around in battleground states. arizonans, they elect secretaries of state to run their elections. this is republican nominee mark finchem, who threw his tinfoil hat into the ring for that position. fi finchem was also outside the capitol on january 6th, and he's proudly running on a platform of refusing to count the ballots that go for candidates he doesn't like. >> knowing what we know today, there are certain counties that should have been set aside as irredeemably compromised. maricopa county was one of them. >> maricopa county, of course, you remember that exhaustive far right partisan audit was conducted there. that's where the cyber ninjas were literally holding up ballots looking for bamboo fibers -- yes, bamboo, i said. this is part of this deranged conspiracy theory that chinese ballots with bamboo, of course, had been shipped into arizona. now, look, i can see where maybe

some of you at home are thinking, these people aren't in office right now, and they never will be. but, a, oh, they absolutely could win given the economic head winds. and b, this anti-democracy insanity, it's already infiltrated the same halls of capitol hill where the rioters once stood. after she was released from prison, simone gold was greeted by none other than texas republican congressman louie gohmert who are gave her an american flag, one that had flown over the very capitol that she had attacked. >> she is out. it's freedom day. and thank god that he sent us simone gold. >> ask the capitol hill cops how much of a role they think god played in sending simone to the capitol that day. and here's where politics gets even more cynical because democrats describe these k

candidates as an existential threat to democracy. >> folks, we talk about democracy whether it's at risk. democracy is at risk in most places where the only definition of whether you win is you either have to win the election or it's been stolen. >> sure, absolutely. except across the country, democratic campaigns and democratic outside groups have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to help these election liars win their republican primaries. at least $52 million, according to cnn's calculations, because they think these existential threats to democracy will be easier for them to beat in november than normal republicans would be. take michigan freshman congressman, an actual combat veteran, pete meyer, meyer was one of ten republicans who voted

to impeach donald trump after january 6th. meyer was running for re-election this year. democrats repaid the favor by spending more than $400,000 to boost his fringe opponent, trump-backed john gibbs. previously obscure, a guy who had written that women should never have been given the right to vote. and of course he's a sharer of trump's big election lie. and the result of that money from the democrats, gibbs won his republican primary. and meyer is leaving politics. the race this november, still a tossup. and it is possible that another election liar will end up in congress, to which republican congressman adam kinzinger says this. >> if peter's opponent wins and goes on to november and wins, the democrats own that. congratulations. don't keep coming to me asking where are all the good republicans who defend democracy and then take your donor's money

and spend half a million dollars promoting one of the worst election deniers that's out there. >> so, how do the democrats explain this? s political decisions that are made out there are made in furtherance of our winning the election because we think the contrast between democrats and republicans, as they are now, is so drastic that we have to -- very to win. >> we have to win, pelosi says, therefore they're nominating fringe candidates in the republican party. i'm trying to think of other times democrats were convinced the candidate was so extreme there was no way he could win the general election. can anyone think of an example? all of this leaves you, the voter, in sort of an impossible position. you should be able to walk into that voting booth and vote on issues that affect your life like the economy or crime or education or health care. but now, in too many races, instead of asking yourself, what can this candidate do for me and my community and my children in

the next two years? you now also have to ask, hey, does this candidate believe in democracy? tomorrow, the january 6 committee will argue that donald trump does not believe in democracy and that he is a clear and present danger to democracy. the panel is about to have its last public hearings before the midterm elections, one last chance to try to convince rational americans about the dangers of the antidemocracy movement, one that pushes the former president's election lies and sometimes encourages violence. coming up, key witness from a previous hearing, former trump deputy white house press secretary sara matthews in her first live interview. [ coughing/sneezing ] [ door knocking ] dude, you coming? because the only thing dripping should be your s style! plop plop fizz fizz, winter warriors with alka-seltzer plus cold & f flu relief. it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance

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basically closing argument before the midterms to voters. one of the star witnesses so far has been trump's white house deputy press secretary, sarah matthews, who resigned on january 6th. she testified publicly before the committee in july, and she joins us now in her first live tv interview ever. don't be scared. so, you worked in the white house for trump. i guess the big question that we're going to hear tomorrow is, do you think donald trump poses a threat to democracy? >> i do think that he poses a threat to democracy. i think that january 6 showed that, and that was part of reason for resigning. he failed to act that day. he had every opportunity to call off the mob and stop the violence. we've seen from taped testimony that folks were pleading with him to do that, and he didn't ever pick up the phone once. and i think the january 6th committee has laid that out. but furthermore than just january 6th, he's continued to push the lie that the 2020

election was stolen from him with zero evidence of that. and i think that that does pose a threat to our democracy. >> was there anything on that day, january 6, 2021, was there a specific straw that broke the camel's back, or was it just an accumulation of everything? >> i do think it was a slow burn for me. the accumulation of him pushing the election lie that it was stolen. but probably on january 6th when he tweeted out the video after everything we witnessed, him saying, we love you, you're very special, to his supporters. that was the moment for me that i knew i was going to resign. >> while you were testifying a few months ago, the house republican conference, the official twitter feed for the house republican conference, they attacked you. they smeared you. and at the time you were working for house republicans on the environment and public works committee or something like that. i know you didn't know about it

in real time, and probably by the time you found out about it, they had deleted it. but that must have felt horrible. >> yeah, i thought it was an embarrassing look for them. i was a house staffer at the time, and for them to tweet that out -- they can't claim ignorance. i know people on elise stefanik's team. >> that's the number three republican in the house. >> exactly. they know i was a current house staffer. and i think what was most astonishing to me about them tweeting that out was they tweeted it calling me a liar before i ever even opened my mouth. they didn't hear what i had to say in my testimony. i don't think what i said in my testimony was aproof that i was lying. there was nothing to be lying about because everything i said has been corroborated in the taped testimony that we've seen from my colleagues, that president trump had people around him begging him to condemn the violence, to call off the mob, and he did not act. >> yeah. that was a bad look for them. that's a nice way to put it. there are too many people in the

party have become trolls. based on your experience with kayleigh mcenany, who was the press secretary while you were deputy, other people like stephen miller, other people that worked in the white house, do you think they believe these lies about the election being stolen, despite there being no evidence of widespread fraud? or do you think they're just play acting because it keeps them in donald trump's good graces? >> i can't speak for other people. but i think it's a little bit of both. i think there are some folks who know better and know there's no proof of the election being stolen but they wish to stay in the good graces of trump world. but then i do think there are some people who truly are detach frd reality and convinced themselves enough that the election was stolen. >> just to remind people, you a conservative republican. >> direct. >> is there still a place for you in the republican party do you think?

>> i still think there is a place. i think by speaking out and saying donald trump is lying about the 2020 election, it will encourage more people to come forward and acknowledge this. and i think the more people that are willing to stand up and speak the truth will save the republican party. but i'm not encouraged by the direction it's headed right now. >> we've seen a lot of brave young women from the trump white house. i wish some of the middle aged men who had been in positions of power over you had such courage. sarah matthews, thanks for being here tonight. >> thank you. from one of the most notorious liars in the history of the presidency to one of the most notorious liars in american pop culture. coming up next, my interview with anna sorokin, aka, anna delvey. that's next. the interest was costing me... well, us... a fortune.

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talk to anyone in san francisco and they'll tell you now is not the time to make our city even more expensive by raising taxes. san francisco has one of the largest city budgets in america. yet when it comes to homelessness and public safety, we're not getting results. what we really need are better policies, more accountability, and safer neighborhoods. vote no on propositions m and o.

the last thing we need are higher taxes, especially right now. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. tonight, she is back out in the world. well, kind of. convicted con artist and fraudster anna sorokin is under house arrest. you might know her story from the hit neks show "inventing anna." sorokin served nearly four years

in prison. but after being released on parole, she was arrested again, this time by immigration for overstaying her visa. sorokin is awaiting her immigration hearing. i sat down with her earlier today in her apartment in manhattan. so, you're out of detention. for the first time in a year and a half. you've been here at this apartment since friday night. how does it feel to be semifree? >> well, i'm so happy to be given this opportunity. i feel like i'm getting a second chance to fix my states, yeah. i'm so happy they agreed to release me even if it's house arrest. >> you have this ankle monitor here. is that annoying? >> no. i'm getting used to it. >> are you allowed to leave the apartment at all? >> no. >> not at all? >> no. i'm supposed to check in with my criminal patrol, with my i.c.e. officers, but otherwise, no. >> do you have any idea how long

you're going to be in house arrest. >> not yet. we're figuring it out now. >> i know you do art now. this is your work. >> so, this is a reproduction of one of my sketches, the delvey crimes. >> and then you have this free time. i don't know if you've had any time to binge any tv shows. there's one on netflix called "inventing anna." i'm not sure if you've seen it. >> no, not yet. >> maybe it would help if you stop thinking about me like everyone else, like basic, you know. >> have you heard -- do you think she got your accent. it became her depiction of your accent was so famous for a while, there was even a skit on "saturday night live" about it. people would do the, you're so basic. people would do the accent. is that something you enjoyed or thought was weird or what? >> i don't think i sound like it, but i think she got me from the time before because i used to -- ten years ago i used to travel so much. i was, like, in my mid 20s. but now i just spend so much

time in the states and i'm speaking english. i guess my accent is not as strong as it used to be. >> so, i wonder, you wanted to be famous and well connected. you came to new york with all sort of plans. and you're now known as a notorious con artist and grifter and liar. and i'm wondering, do you have any regrets? >> absolutely. yes. i feel so sorry for a lot of the choices i've made. i also feel like i've learned so much and like i grew as a person. >> have you apologized to anyone? >> yes, i did. >> who? >> i said i'm very sorry for the decisions i made. >> oh, in court you said it. but have you reached out to anybody? have you reached out to friends or hotels or restaurants or anyone this. >> i didn't steal from any of my friends. the only one that was a friend case, i got acquitted of that account. and everything else was a

financial institution. >> when you say financial institution action it doesn't sound like you regret what you were doing. it sounds like you're casting it as a victimless crime. you took advantage of people. >> i definitely did. i was younger and i learn frd my mistakes. >> but did you? >> i did, yes. >> are you not going to do anything like this ever again? >> absolutely not. >> so, you served 20 months in pre-trial detention at rikers. then you were convicted. you did another 20 months. then you were released. instead of going back to europe, did you 18 months here in the united states in immigration custody. >> that's right. >> but why not be free in europe instead of in detention in the united states? can you help me understand that? >> because i'm trying to fix the mistakes that i've done in the past. and i feel like if i were to leave and say, oh, whatever, i'm just going to do -- i'm just going to move on and move to europe, i would be, like,

accepting the -- they're trying to slap on me. i think me staying in jail and trying to prove people wrong, got to stand for something. i hope people will recognize it. >> what do you mean prove people wrong? by staying in the united states and doing what? >> i'm still on criminal parole. i'm still with i.c.e. i'm complying with the restrictions they place on me. >> what's your case to immigration for why you should get to stay in the united states after everything that happened? why should the american people let you stay here knowing how effectively you conned and fleeced so many americans here already? >> i feel like i deserve a second chance. it was my mistake i made and i served my time and i feel like i should deserve a second opportunity. >> do you think there's something about the united states where we are fascinated by con artists, grifters, liars? is there something that we like,

that we find interesting? >> i was thinking so. i think if i were to be prosecuted for similar crimes in germany, i don't think people would really care. >> is that right? >> yeah. i feel like i never really wanted to be famous -- >> you didn't want to be famous? you just wanted to be influential and well connected. >> yeah, i wanted to work on my business. part of it was the prosecution, the way they portrayed me, and the media, they created this idea of me and i'm just being left to deal with it. >> but you convinced people that you were an haeiress. >> i never said that. >> you're saying all, that it doesn't sound like you're repenitent. it doesn't sound like you think you did anything song. >> i definitely did a lot of wrong -- i made a lot of wrong choices. >> like what? >> well, misrepresenting, i

guess, my financials to financial institutions. but i'm trying to not glamorize my crimes and try to not lead anyone to believe that's the way to get famous. i suffered a lot as a consequence of my actions. even though i don't show it -- i'm not going to go on tv and cry. i've done a lot of time in jail, and it's been very hard a lot of times. >> what's the plan now for how you're going to support yourself? >> i am working on my podcast and i'm doing more of my art. i'm so very happy. i've been afforded a second chance to just stay here and to fix my mistakes. and hopefully i will be known for some of my projects and not just what i was trying to do when i was in my early 20s. >> the best is yet to come is what you're saying. >> yes. >> you can see more of our interview with anna on twitter and cnn.com, including her thoughts on the u.s. criminal

justice system and how she says she wants to work to change it. the sixth amendment guarantees we can all get a lawyer to defend us if we're charged with a crime. it does not guarantee that you will get a good lawyer. coming up, an example so disturbing that i just couldn't be silent about it. with a defense lawyer like this, who needs prosecutors? when pai”" i say, “so are they.” ♪ aleve - who do you take it for? as someone with hearing loss i know what a confusing and frustrating experience getting hearing aids can be. that's why i founded lively. affordable, highuality hearing aids with all of the features you need, and none of the hassle. i use lively hearing aids and it's been wonderful. it's so light and so small but it's a fraction of the cost of the other devices. they cost thousands less. it's insanely user friendly. you take the hearing test online, the doctor programs in the settings. you don't even need to go into an office.

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how bad can a lawyer be and still be considered adequate counsel in the united states? that's a question that has plagued me for the past two years while researching a story i first learned about through my dad. it's the question that's at the center of a story i wrote a cover story for "the atlantic" out today that examines the case of c.j. rice. c.j. rice was a philadelphia teen sentenced to up to 60 years in prison for four counts of attempted murder. rice has not only insisted on his innocence, but my dad, who was his pediatrician at the time, said that rice would have been physically incapable of committing the crime in question. you would think that would have played a key part, a key role in his defense. but it's just one of the many ways his lawyer failed c.j. rice. and the p injustice, it's par forth than i could have imagined. this is my dad, dr. theodore

tapper, who spent decades as a pediatrician in south philadelphia. for years, my dad's been telling me about a former patient, c.j. rice, currently doing 30 to 60 years in prison, for a crime my father insists rice could physically not have committed. >> it was impossible. >> no dna, no crime scene evidence, ties rice to the crime. one eyewitness, who had known c.j. for years, repeatedly told police she could not identify the gunman. >> i think it was 20 years where she had spoken to at least three different officers and never said, look, this is someone in my neighborhood. >> reporter: but overnight, police say a confidential informant told them rice may have been involved. detectives showed this photo arey to detectives and she then

fingered rice. philadelphia police changed policy barring investigative detectives from conducting the lineups. >> this is the situation the shooter was id'd as c.j. rice. the eyewitness testified that she was 20 feet away. 20 feet away, however, would actually have put him, like, here. this is 20 feet away. where i was before, all the way over there, that's more like 50 feet away, maybe even more, depending on exactly where he was behind this car over here. >> reporter: witnesses said they saw the gunman running, but my

dad had examined c.j. rice just five days earlier. and he insisted c.j. was in no condition to run. >> he had staples over his abdomen over approximately an eight or nine inch surgical envision from his breastbone far as you could go. >> that's because c.j. had been shot five days. >> there's no way this young man was running anywhere, let alone walking fast. >> my dad demonstrates how slowly he remembers c.j. rice leaving his office that day. >> with great difficulty and with very great slowness. >> when c.j. rice was named a suspect, his mother met him at the police station so he could turn himself in. >> and the detective took his arm to help him walk up the stairs. >> reporter: court appointed

attorney sanjay weaver took his case on, and weaver did not provide c.j. with an adequate defense. she never obtained the location data for rice's cell phone, which he told her to do, since he said it would show he was nowhere near the crime scene. >> after the trial, c.j. starts telling me, oh, she should have did this. i told her to do this. she didn't listen to me. >> reporter: she never prepared or even met with witnesses, such as my father, who met her for the very first time on the day he was to testify at trial about c.j.'s wound and pain. >> every time i talked extensively with the lawyers in person in their office, this is the only time i had never had a conversation at any length at all before the trial. >> reporter: at the trial, sanjay weaver never requested that rice's case be recert identified to juvenile court. she never mentioned the only eyewitness to place c.j. at the scene initially failed not once

but three times to identify him as the shooter. she never challenged the eyewitness about the inaccurate assessment of distance from the shooter. >> before the trial in 2014, i had not seen any hospital records at all. >> reporter: my dad obtained them after the trial at c.j. rice's request. >> many things surprised me. one was a bullet that fractured his pelvis. it just made an even firmer belief that there's no way he could have run. >> reporter: c.j. rice had an alibi, a witness who said he was with him the night of the shooting. >> just from a view of the record, it seemed the alibi was ill-prepared. there was nothing to corroborate it. >> unlike c.j.'s codefendant, sanjay weaver never told c.j.'s alibi witness to give a statement. so, on the stand, the prosecutor turned weaver's incompetence

into evidence of him lying, asking the witness, quote, today is the first day that you got in front of anybody other than the defense attorney and told them about where c.j. was. sanjay weaver also inexplicably called someone who was not with c.j. at the time of the crime as an ally witness. it all made c.j. look guilty. we can't ask sanjay weaver about any of this. she passed away in 2019. c.j. was sentenced to 30 to 60 years in prison. >> if there were a new trial and some of these things were addressed, the jury would have a hard time not having a reasonable doubt. >> reporter: c.j.'s new attorney applied for conviction relief in county court, arguing that c.j. rice had ineffective counsel. but the same judge who had presided over c.j. rice's trial heard the appeal and he rejected it. c.j. rice's story, which i tell in the new issue of "the atlantic" magazine is important because of how unusual it is

not. a poor kid with no means and an incompetent, court appointed lawyer. the assembly of a criminal justice system not focused on justice. my father continues to support and exchange letters with j.c. rice in prison. c.j.'s mom holds on to memories and holds on to hope that he will one day be free in someone in power seeks to right what she sees as an injustice. >> of course witness testimony can be notoriously unreliable. more than two-thirds of the people exonerated with the innocence projects held dna evidence, two-thirds of them involved eyewitnesses who were ultimately proven wrong. van jones, who is working to get c.j. rice out of prison joins me next. stay with us. cold & flu relief with more concentrated power. becaususe the only thing dripping should be your style!! plop plop fizz fizz, winterer warriors

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we just told you the story of c.j. rice. his story reminds us that the sixth amendment, which guarantees the right to counsel and a competent one, really is nothing more than an empty promise in the united states. joining us now to discuss, barry shack, cofounder of the innocence project, and van

jones, activist for criminal justice reform, and he's working with c.j.'s case. van, let me start with you. the cops went into it with this was a rival gang shooting thing, and they didn't really seem -- it really seemed like there was just a desire, we just need to make an arrest. we need to make an arrest, and not really we need to search for justice and figure out who did it. >> i want to thank you and i want to thank your dad. your dad is a bulldog. he will not let this thing go. and as a result maybe we'll get some kind of justice. brian stevenson, he says, it is america now, it is better to be rich and guilty than poor and innocent. so, if you're poor and innocent, the chance of you getting a good lawyer are not what they should be. this is a case that shows you did more work to figure out what happened than the and once you start looking under these rocks what you find is a system that's broken. it's a broken system. the 6th amendment, the sixth

amendment says if you state comes against you, you get a good lawyer. >> we need to point out your organization, the innocence project, has done such important work. and you highlight how mistaken eyewitness identifications are the leading factor for wrongful convictions. nearly 70% of your 375 dna exonerations involved eyewitnesses who have been proven to be wrong. but this is not something that the american people necessarily know. and if they're not told it, they just believe people. >> well, i think we've made a lot of progress as chief ramsy actually instituted some reforms in philadelphia, and pennsylvania has done something on eyewitness identification. but the ineffectiveness of council issue is the hardest. justice marshall dissented in the case which setout the standard and what he said is the

standard for the ineffectiveness -- but the truth is we do not have an objective standard. marshall pointed out the way they wrote the standard is it depended on the locale. if you weren't in a locale they didn't have good lawyers and weren't paying your court appointed lawyer money which was going on here and was uniquely bad. and by the way if you're that bad with those problems you should be thrown off those panels. but a bad lawyer we can't even count how many people are innocent and convicted by the bad lawyers and frankly sentenced to far more time than they ever would have gotten as this lawyer didn't put this poor young man in juvenile court where his sentence would have been a lot less. >> yeah, 30 to 60 years for a

crime no one was seriously injured much less killed. as you note and have noted before you could be drunk as a lawyer -- arrested for drunk driving on the way to the courthouse, you can fall asleep, literally disbarred during the trial and that's all considered kosher in our judicial system. a lot of people don't realize the difference between a public defender and often excellent attorneys or court appointed attorneys who they don't have as good a track record. >> they don't. and sometimes the financial incentives make it even worse. you have public defenders, they're lifelong, do it all the time. you have other lawyers they pick up these cases for money, and they get paid the same if they do a good job or bad job, if they work out for ten hours or 10,000 hours they do the same. so the incentive is get a bunch of cases and do the minimal amount of work. the one positive, though, is that people are fighting back.

dream.org has a petition up now to get people who want to see this case resolved differently to go to dream.org's petition to sign-up. you've got lawyers like aaron haynie now getting involved and fighting back. so this particular case i think could start a real movement. you have shapiro, krasner, and fetterman, three of the big legends in pennsylvania politics. any of those three could take this case up and do something about it. i think this could start a movement to change this country where the sixth amendment applies again. what are the conservatives concerned about? the big government. the big government's going to come and get you. the only thing in the constitution that protects you the sixth amendment says a lawyer can help you. >> i was saying during the commercial break once you see the injustices built into the system you can't unsee them. and i was stunned to find out in pennsylvania they have a thing called a pcra. you want to say i didn't get a

fair trial in the courtroom of this judge guess who you go to get a ruling on that? the same judge. how many judges are going to be like, yeah, you're right, i did a bad job here? >> the one point i'd really like to make here here is john wrote a great book about locked up and incarceration in this country. and myself and others have been asking for a martial plan for indignant defense. and frankly that's not a lot of money when you think about it in terms of what we're spending in so many areas, and you've got to do it now because you talked about what could happen in pennsylvania, that, well, you've got to raise the standard of practice. you have to make it by statute, an objective standard for what constitutes effective assistance of counsel, real categories. because what he was complaining about from the beginning, he really knew unless you lay it

out and you have constitutional standards and it'll have to be done in the state. justice aleto has already told us, he doesn't want aba standards constitutionalized. it's got to be state by state by state. >> again, none of us want guilty people roaming the streets. we all want guilty people in prison. the question is are we sending innocent people to prison because of the inequities in the system. thank you so much. we'll be right back. chnology. we can replace your windshield ...and recalibrate your safety system. >> customer: and they rerecycld my old glass. >> tech: don't wait. schedule tododay. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪ my relationship with my credit cards wasn't good. i got into debt in college and, no matter how much i paid, it followed me everywhere. between the high interest, the fees... i felt trapped. debt, debt, debt. so i broke up with my credit card debt and consolidated it into a low-rate personal loan from sofi. i finally feel like a grown-up. break up with bad credit card debt.

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thanks so much for joining us tonight. i'll be back tomorrow night with republican congressman adam kinzinger. he's on the january 6th select committee. this will be his first interview following tomorrow's hearing, which we're told will be the last one before the mid-term elections. our coverage continues right now with laura coates. laura coates, did you see -- i know you're a big ana fan. did you see the interview? >> oh, i did. i look f