all the dreams that i had, giving her a house, having her lead with three. i had kids one day. watching all that disappear was like nothing i had ever experienced. it was a different kind of grief, different with my mom, different than my dad, different than my brother. >> i also talked to a wondered for filmmaker whose mom died from alzheimer's in 2007 after seven years of struggle. her dad now has dementia. she talks a lot about grief as well. you can point yourself phone at the qr code for a link or you can find the podcast on apple podcast, any thing you do. the news continues with jake tapper and cnn tonight. >> welcome to cnn tonight, i'm jake tapper. tonight, we are less than a month, 27 days away from one of the weirdest and least

predictable midterm elections in modern memory. what is happening now and ending on election day november 8th is not typical, it is not. as of now, it is not shaping up to be a wave for one party or another. now it is more like a shark nato. typically, republicans would and should be feeling pretty good about their chances. to retake both the house and the senate by significant margins. feeling good because things are bad. high inflation, fears of a recession, voters are inclined to hold the party in power. right now, that is democrats. they are responsible and accountable. phrases are up nearly everywhere you look. life is more expensive, but which of course i mean life cereal, weak and processed wheat products. up more than 20% here. as the late great rapper might

say, straight butter baby. by which of course, i mean the tuck cost butter is up 30% august to august. of course, our friends in saudi arabia are making sure that we all continue to feel more pain at the pump. thanks mbs, fist bump. >> i'm over it. >> i'm very unhappy. >> prices are crazy. >> as president biden told me on last night show, it can all very will get worse. >> i don't think there will be a recession. if it is, it will be a very slight recession. that is, we will move down slightly. it is possible, i don't anticipate it. >> all that turmoil is reflected in a brand-new cnn poll showing that you, america, don't think economic conditions in the u.s. are good right now. you give president biden bad marks on the economy, and you think the government is not doing enough to stop a possible recession. for democrats on the ballot, this is what they say in the bill is, this is serious

headwinds. more like gale force winds actually. put on those mittens, bernie. we should point out that there are some issues where democrats might have an edge. they are putting a big focus right now on abortion rights since the overturning of roe v. wade is no longer theoretical and sear -- opposed by the general public, they are sweeping state legislatures. >> banning all abortions, even when a woman's life is at risk. >> banning all abortion. >> calling abortion a made-up right for women. i was personally disgusted. >> she decided for them. >> frankly, that might not be enough because polling shows that republicans are favored on some of the issues voters here are most about. not just the economy, but also immigration and crime. you can see why, in your average swing congressional district, your battleground state, republicans would be feeling pretty good. that is until they had to their

republican county potluck and run into this guy. ohio republican county -- you most heard him as recently falsely claimed to serve in afghanistan according to the associated press. you may have first met him when you saw that he turned his lawn into a 19,000 square foot trump 2020 signed. you might know him from his career as a rapper. ♪ ♪ ♪ that is no -- but, that performance is not nearly as disturbing as the fact that he went on fox wearing a cue and i t-shirt. the deranged conspiracy theory that a comeback all of democrats and hollywood producers are part of a satanic cannibalistic cult of pedophiles. that shirt is one that should have the sleeves the tie in the

back. that is what brings us to what biden's poll says, it is so far keeping the midterm election for being a complete republican -- which theoretically, it should be. the economy, the disapproval of the president. he says these midterms are a case of the headwinds versus the head cases. now, maybe don't like that framing, it does come from a democratic partisan. he is also acknowledging massive disapproval of his own party, particularly around the economy. it is really essentially the same argument that we heard from senator mitch mcconnell when he talked about candidate quality, possibly keeping him from becoming republican majority leader again. candidates who races are far more competitive than they should be given the givens. herschel walker in georgia, blake masters in arizona, dr. oz in pennsylvania. and then of course, there are those candidates with fringe ideologies. the price of breakfast cereal is skyrocketing but some of

these candidates are cuckoo for cocoa puffs. and singing from the donald trump election grievance song bar. >> hundreds of thousands of votes are allowed to be considered as lawful votes. we know their legal. >> it's not right it's correct. it's not right, that is inaccurate. unhinged lies, born from donald trump's grievance that he lost, his refusal to accept reality. >> all of us here today do not want to see our election victories stolen by a bold and radical left democrat, we do not concede theft. >> after that speech when masses of trump supporters that stormed the capitol, leading to one of the darkest days in modern u.s. history. and some of the folks who played a role in that insurrection, they are on ballots. across the country right now. such as, doug mastriano, the great commonwealth of pennsylvania.

he comes from the farthest of the french right, he even hired the antisemitic founder of the fringe social media company as a consultant. mastriano, the republican nominee for governor, he can be seen in this photo dressed as a confederate soldier and in this one at the capitol on january 6th. >> voting integrity, wow. oh my goodness. i've seen better elections in i've gotten, not a hyperbole. >> it is not a hyperbole, it is just utter -- he appoints the governor's day to run elections. it is totally possible that an election liar could appoint the person who oversees elections in one of the most crucial battleground states in america. a lot of this going around in a battleground states. eric zone -- they elect secretaries of state to run their elections. this is republican nominee mark

finchem who threw his tinfoil hat into the ring for that position. vindman was also outside the capitol on january 6th and he is proudly running on a platform of refusing to count the ballots that go for candidates he doesn't like. >> but knowing what we know today, there are certain counties that should've been set aside as irredeemably compromised. this was one of them. >> maricopa county, you remember that exhaustive far right partisan audit that was conducted. that is when the cyber ninjas were literally holding up ballots, looking for bamboo fibers. yes, bamboo i said. this is part of this deranged conspiracy theory that chinese ballots with bamboo had been shipped into arizona. now look, i could see where maybe some of you are at home thinking, these people aren't in office right now and they never will be. but a, oh they absolutely could win given the

economic headwinds. and be, this anti-democracy insanity, it is already infiltrating the same halls of capitol hill where the rioters one stood. after she was released from prison, january 6th insurrectionists simone gold was greeted by none other than texas republican congressman louis gohmert who gave her an american flag, one that had flown over the very capitol that she had attacked. >> she is out, it is freedom day and thank god that he said simone gold. >> ask the capitol hill cops how much they think the role god played in sending simone hill that. democrats describe these candidates as an existential threat to american democracy. >> folks, you know, we talk about democracy, whether it's at risk. democracy is at risk in mobile's places when the only definition of whether you

win, you have to win the election or it has been stolen. >> sure, absolutely, except across the country democratic campaigns and democratic outside groups have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to help these election liar's win their republican primaries. at least $52 million, according to cnn's calculations. they think these accidental threats to democracy will be easier for them to beat in november then normal republicans would be. take michigan freshman congressman, an actual combat veteran. he was one of just ten republicans who voted to impeach donald trump after january 6th, that is a tough vote for anyone much less a freshman. he was running for reelection this year, democrats paid favorite by spending more than $400,000 to boost his fringe opponents. trump backed john gibbs. previously, obscure, a guy who had written that women should never be given the

right to vote. of course, he is a sure of trump's big election lie. the result of that money from the democrats, gibbs won his republican primary. meyer is leading politics. the race this november, still a toss-up. it is possible that another election liar will end up in congress to which republican congressman adam kissinger says this,. >> if peters opponent wins and goes and wins, the democrats on that, congratulations. don't keep coming to me asking where all the good republicans that defend democracy are and then take your donors money and spend half 1 million dollars promoting one of the worst

election deniers that is out there. >> how do democrats explain this? >> the political decision that are made out there are made in furtherance of our winning the election because we think the contrast between democrats and republicans as they are now is so drastic that we have to, we have to win. >> we have to win pelosi says. therefore, they are nominating fringe candidates in the republican party. i'm trying to think of the times that democrats were convinced a candid it was so extreme that there is no way he could win the general election. can anyone think of an example? all of this leaves you, the voter, in sort of an impossible situation. you should be able to walk into that voting booth and vote on issues that affect your life like the economy, or crime, or education, health care. but now into many races, instead of asking yourself what

can this candidate do for me and my community, my children in the next two years. you now also have to ask, does this candidate believe in democracy? tomorrow, the january six committee who argued don trump does not believe in democracy and that he is a clear and present danger to democracy. the panel is about to have its last public hearings before the midterm election. one last chance to try to convince rational americans about the dangers of the anti-democracy movement, one that pushes the former presidential election lies and sometimes encourages violence. coming up, key witness from a previous hearing, former trump deputy white house press secretary sarah matthews in her first live interview. so the january powermax gels cold & flu relief with more concentrated power. because the only thing dripping should be your style! plop plop fizz fizz, winter warriors with alka-seltzer plus. have diabetes? know where your glucose is? with the freestyle libre 3 system, know your glucose and where it's heading. no fingersticks needed. now the world's smallest, thinnest sensor sends your glucose levels directly to your smartphone.

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house for trump, i guess the big question that we are going to hear tomorrow's, do you think donald trump poses a threat to democracy? >> i do think that he poses a threat to democracy. i think that january 6th showed that. that was part of my reason for resigning. he failed to act that day. he had every opportunity to call off the mob and condemn the violence. we have seen from taped testimony from several of my colleagues that folks were pleading with him to do that. and he didn't ever pick up the phone once. and i think that the january six committee has laid that out. but for the more than just january 6th, he has continued to push the lie that the 2020 election was stolen from him, with zero evidence of that. so i think that does pose a threat to our democracy. >> was there anything on that

day, january 6th, 2021, was very specific straw that broke the camel's back? it was just accumulation of everything. >> i do think that it was a slow burn for me, you know, the accumulation of him pushing the election lie that it was stolen. but probably on january 6th, 20 tweeted out the video, after everything we had witnessed, him saying, oh, we love, you are very special, to his supporters. that was really the moment for me when i knew i was going to resign. >> while you are testifying a few months ago, the house republican -- the facial twitter feed for the house republican conference, they attacked you. they smeared you. and at the time, you were working for house republicans, i think, on the environment or public works committee or something like that. i know that you didn't know about it in realtime, probably by the time he found out about it they deleted it. but that must have felt horrible. >> yeah, i thought it was definitely embarrassing look for them. i was the current house staffer at the time. for them to tweet that out, they can't claim ignorance, i know the people on the team,

personally. >> that is the number three republican in the house who is in charge of the conference. >> yeah, exactly. so they know that i was a current house staffer. and i think what was most astonishing to me about them tweeting that out was that they tweeted it calling me a liar before ever even opened my mouth. so they didn't even hear what i had to say in my testimony. >> i don't think what i had to say in my testimony was proof that i was lying. there was nothing to be lying about because everything that i said has been corroborated in taped testimony that we have seen from my colleagues. that president trump had people

around him begging him to condemn the violence, to call off the mob, and he did not act. >> yeah, no, it was a bad look for them. that's a nice way to put. it i mean, there are too many people -- based on your experience with kayleigh mcenany, who was the press secretary while you are deputy, other people like stephen miller, other people in the white house. do you think they actually believe these lies about the election being stolen despite there being no evidence of widespread fraud? or do you think they are just play acting because it keeps them in donald trump's good graces? >> you know, i can't speak for specific people. but i will say that i think it is a little bit of both. i think there are some folks who know better and are smart enough to see through this. they know that there is no proof of the election being stolen but they wish to stay in the good graces of trump world,. they prioritize, there you, know ambitions and career for that. but then i do think there are some people who truly are detached from reality. and have convinced themselves enough that the election is stolen. >> just to remind people, you are a conservative republican. >> correct. >> is there still a place for you in the republican party, do you think? >> i still think there is a place. i am hopeful that by speaking out and saying that donald trump is lying to the american people about the 2020 election, that it will hopefully encourage more people to come forward and acknowledge this. i think that the more people that are willing to stand up and speak the truth will save the republican party. but i am not encouraged by the

direction it is headed right now. >> we have seen a lot of brave young women from the trump white house, do you, cassidy hutchinson, alyssa -- coming forward. i wish that some of the middle aged man who had been in positions of power over you had such courage. sarah matthews, thank you so much, good to see you, thank you. >> thank you. >> from one of the most notorious liars in the history of the presidency to one of the most notorious liars in american pop culture. coming up next, the face that launched 1000 rip-offs and one very popular netflix series. my interview with anna sorokin, aka, anna delvey. now rocking the nfl monitor, that is next.

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assert rock and is now under house arrest after being released from prison last week. you might know her story from the hit netflix show inventing anna where she is betrayed as an epic scammer, sorokin served nearly four years in prison. but after being released on parole she was then arrested again. this time by immigration for overstaying her visa. sorokin is now awaiting her immigration hearing. i sat down with her earlier today in her apartment in manhattan. >> so you are out of detention for the first time in the year and a half, you are here in this apartment since friday night. how does it feel to be semi free? >> well, i am so happy to be given this opportunity. i feel like i am getting a second chance to fix my mistakes, yeah, i am so happy they agreed to release and even if it's just heise. rest >> has rest and you have his ankle monitor. >> i do. >> is that annoying? >> no, i'm getting used to it. they tighten it up a little bit

so it is not as tight as it used to be. >> are you allowed to leave the apartment at all? >> no. >> not at all? >> no. well i am supposed to check in with my criminal parole and my ice officers, but otherwise, no. >> do you have any idea how long you are going to be in house arrest? >> no, not yet. we are like figuring it out. now >> figuring it out, i'm trying to tell you pass your time. i know you do art. this is your work. >> this is a reproduction of one of my sketches, the delphi crimes. >> and then you have this free time, i don't know if you have any time to binge any tv shows? >> oh no, not at all. >> there is one on netflix called inventing anna, i'm not sure if you've seen.

>> at no, not yet. >> you haven't seen? >> it i saw like half an hour of it. >> if you start thinking about me like everyone else, like basic, you know? >> have you heard, like, do you think she got your accent, because it kind of became her depiction of your accent was so famous for a while that there was even a skate on saturday night live about it. you know, people would do, so basic, people would do the accent. is that, i mean, is that something you enjoyed or thought was weird or what? >> i don't think i sound like it but i think she got me from the time before, because i used to, like, ten years ago i used to travel so much. i was, like, in my mid twenties. but now i just spent so much time in the states and i don't even speak english? so i guess my accent is not as strong as it used to be. >> i wonder, if you wanted to be famous and well connected and you came to new york with all sorts of plans and you are now known as a notorious con artist and drifter and liar.

and i'm wondering, do you have any regrets? >> absolutely, yes. i feel so sorry for a lot of the choices i have made. i also feel like i have learned so much and grew as a person. >> have you apologized to anyone? >> yes, i did. >> who? >> wow, i said, i am very sorry for all the decisions i have made. >> oh, in court, you mean, you said. but have you reached out to anyone, have you reached out to any of your friends or the hotels or the restaurants or anyone? >> well, i didn't steal any money from friends, the only front that was involved, i got acquitted from that. everyone else is financially institution. >> when you say right now, you say what you did, you do financial institutions. it doesn't sound like he really regret what you did. it sounds like you are almost kind of, like, casting as though it was a victimless crime. it wasn't a victimless crime, right? i mean you took advantage of people. >> i definitely did, yeah, and i was younger and i learn from my mistakes. >> but did you? >> i did, i did, yes. >> did you learn from those mistakes? will you ever do something with this again? >> absolutely not. >> so you served 20 months in pretrial detention at rikers. then you are convicted, you did another 20 months. then you were released. and then, instead of going back to europe, you did 18 months here in the united states immigration custody. why not be free in europe instead of detention in the united states, can you

understand? the way they portrayed me and the media, it kind of created that. but i'm just being left to deal with it. >> you convince people that you were an heiress, that you had lots of money that you don't have. >> i actually never said that to anybody. that was a misconception that they had. >> you're seeing all the stuff to me, it doesn't sound like you are really actually all that repentant. it doesn't sound like you are actually really regretting of what you did or necessarily think what you did was wrong. >> i made a lot of wrong choices. >> like what? >> misrepresenting my financial institutions. i'm trying to, not glamorize my crimes and not need anybody to believe that is the way to get famous because i

suffered a lot as a result of the consequences of my actions even though i don't always show it. i'm not going to go into the -- i've done a lot of crime in jail and it is been very hard a lot of times. >> what is the plan our going to support yourself? >> i'm working on my podcast and doing more of my afforded a second chance to stay here and to fix my mistakes and hopefully i will be known for some of my budget projects and

not just what i've been trying to do when i was in my early twenties .

>> the best is yet to come. >> yes. >> you can see even more of our interview with anna on twitter and on cnn. com, including her thoughts on the u.s. criminal justice system and how she says she wants to work to change it. >> the sixth amendment guarantees that we can all get a lawyer to defend us if we are charged with a crime. it is not guarantee that you will get a good lawyer. coming up, an example that it could be silent about. with a defense lawyer like this, who needs prosecutors? we reduce the carbon dioxide because they burned easily.

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and once they're hooked, they can be addicted for life. this election: we can stop big tobacco's dirty trick. voting yes on prop 31 will end the sale of candy flavored tobacco products. saving kids from nicotine addiction. vote yes on 31. >> how bad can a lawyer be and still be considered adequate counsel in the united states? that is a question that has played me for the past two years while researching a story i first learned about through my dad. it is the question of the center of a story i wrote. a cover story for the atlantic out today. that examines the case of cj right. in 2013, c.j. rice was a philadelphia teen sentenced to up to 60 years in prison for four counts of attempted

murder. rice not only has insisted on his innocence, but my dad who was his pediatrician at the time has said that rice would have been physically incapable of committing the crime in question. now, we would think that would have played a key part, a key role in his defense. but it has just been one of the many ways that his lawyer failed to c.j. right. and the injustice is far worse than i ever could have imagined. >> this is my dad doctor theodore tapper who spent decades as a pediatrician and south philadelphia. for years, my dad has been telling me about a former patient, c.j. rice. currently doing 30 to 60 years in prison for a crime my father insists rice could physically not have committed. >> was impossible. >> no dna, no guns found, no crime scene evidence ties rise to the september 2011 nighttime joining. and wounding of four people. one eyewitness, food known c.j. for years initially and

repeatedly told police that she could not identify the two gunman. >> i think it was approximately 20 hours where she had spoken to at least i think it was three different officers and never said look, this is somebody that is in my neighborhood. but overnight police say a confidential informant told them that rise might have been involved. >> so, detectives then showed the photo away to the eyewitness who then fingered rice. >> three years later, philadelphia police changed policy barring any investigating detectives from conducting the lineups because of the possibility of suggestion. >> this is the position where one of the shooters was. the one that was i.d.'d as c.j. rice. >> the night of september 25th 2011. >> the eyewitness testified that he was 20 feet away. 20 feet away however would

actually be putting him here. this is 20 feet away. >> where i was before, all the way over there. that is what, like 50 feet away maybe even more depending on exactly where he was behind this car. that was over here. >> witnesses said they saw the gunman running, but my dad had examined the 17-year-old c.j. rice just five days earlier and he insisted that c.j. was in no condition to run. >> he had staples in his abdomen over approximately eight or nine-inch surgical incision from his breast bone, straight down far as you can go. >> that is because three works earlier, so jay wright had been shot three times in a case of what he thought was mistaken identity. >> there was no way that this young man, five years after i saw him was running anywhere

let alone walking fast. >> my dad demonstrates here just how slowly he remembers c.j. rice leaving his office that day. >> with great difficulty and with a very great slowness. >> when c.j. rice was named as a suspect, mother krystal cooper met him at the police station so that he could times elephant. >> the detective took his arm to help him walk up the stairs. >> c.j.'s family could not afford legal counsel, so the court appointed private attorney saw jay weaver. and weaver did not provide c.j. with an adequate defense. we were appears to have never visited the crime scene. and never obtained the location data for isis cell phone which he told her to do since he said it would show he was nowhere near the crime scene. >> after the trial, c.j. started telling me oh she should have done this, i told her to do this. she didn't listen to me. she never prepared even met with witnesses such as my father who met her for the very first time on the day that he was to testify at trial.

about c.j.'s wound and pain. >> every time that i talked extensively with the lawyers in person and in their office, this is the only time i had never had a conversation of any length at all before the trial. >> at the trial, so we were never suggested rice's case b disservice of a two juvenile court. never mentioned that the only eyewitness to place ceegee at the team failed initially not only wants, but three times to identify him as the shooter. she never challenge the i was about the enacted assessment of her distance from shooters. she never introduced rises hospital records. singing from the donald trump election grievance songbook. >> it is not right, there are hundreds of thousands of votes ,

>> cj rice had an alibi, a witness who said he was with him the night of the shooting. >> just from the view of the record it seemed that he was ill prepared, there is nothing to cooperate. >> unlike the codefendant whose alibi witnesses told their stories to the police long before the trial, sanjay weaver never told c. j.'s alibi witness to give a statement. so on the stand, the prosecutor turned weavers incompetence into evidence of him lying. asking the witness quote, today is the first day that you got in front of anybody other than the defense attorney and told them about where c. j. was? sunday weaver also inexplicably called someone who is not with c. j. at the time of the crime as an alibi witness. it all made c. j. look guilty. we can't ask sanjay weaver about any of this, she passed away in 2019. c. j.'s codefendant was acquitted, c. j. was sentenced

to 30 to 60 years in prison. >> if there was a new trial and some of these things were addressed, the jury would have a hard time not having reasonable doubt. >> c. j.'s new attorney, jason applied for conviction relief in county court, arguing that cj rice had ineffective counsel. the same judge who had presided over c. j. rice's trial heard the appeal and he rejected it. see derisive story, which i tell in the new issue of the atlantic magazine, is important because of how unusual it is not. a poor kid with no means and an incompetent court appointed lawyer. the assembly line of the criminal justice system often not focused on justice. my father continues to support an exchange letters to the c. j. rise in prison. c. j.'s mom holds onto memories and holds out hope that he will one day be free. if someone in seeks to write what she sees as an injustice. of course, witness testimony can be notoriously unreliable, more than two thirds of the people exonerated

with the innocence project's help, dna evidence, two thirds of them involved eyewitnesses who were ultimately proven wrong. from the innocence project, he is here with us. also van jones who is working to get c. j. rice out of prison. they join me next, stay with and she can simply focus on right now. that's the planning effect. from fidelity. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief.

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>> we just told you the story of c. j. rice, a story to remind us that the sixth amendment which guarantees the right to counsel and a competent one really is nothing more than an empty promise in the united states. joining us to discuss , barry scheck, cofounder of the innocence project. and van jones, an activist working on the cj's case. let me start with you, there's something to be said about how c. j.'s case was able to start. this rival granting shooting thing, they didn't really seem like there was a great desire. we need to make an arrest, we need to make an arrest and not really we need to search for justice here and figure who did it. >> i want to thank you, and i want to thank your dad. your dad is a bulldog, your dad will not let this thing go. as a result, maybe we'll get some kind of justice. brian stevenson, he says it is america now, it is better to be

rich and guilty then poor and innocent. if you are poor and innocent, the chances of getting a good lawyer or not what they should be. this is a case that shows you did more work to figure out what happened then the cops, the prosecutors or the defense attorney. once you start looking under these rocks, what you find is a system that is broken. it is a broken system that the sixth amendment, all these conservatives love the constitution, the six of them and says that if the state comes and get you, you get a good lawyer. it's no longer true in america. >> very, we need to point out, your organization the innocence project has does such great work. you highlighted how mistaken identifications are the leading factor for wrongful convictions. nearly 70% of your 375 dna exonerations involved eyewitnesses who have proven to be wrong. this is not something that the american people necessarily know and they are not told it, they just believe people.

>> i think we've made a lot of progress as chief ramsey actually instituted some reforms in philadelphia and pennsylvania. he's done something on eyewitness identification. the ineffective assistance of counsel issue is the hardest. justice marshall consented in the strickland case which set out the standard and what he said is the standard for ineffective assistance of counsel that we use. if you put a mirror under the nose of a lawyer and it fogs up you have an effective lawyer. the truth is, we do not have and objective standard. marshall pointed out that the way they wrote the standard is that it depended on the locale. if you are in a locale where they didn't have good lawyers, particularly when they aren't paying court appointed lawyers very much money, which was what was going on here, although she was uniquely bad. by the way,

if you are that bad with those problems, you should be thrown off those panels. people don't do that with lawyers protecting themselves. a bad lawyer, we can't even calculate how many people are innocent and convicted by bad lawyers and frankly, sentenced to far more time than they would ever have gotten if this lawyer didn't put this poor young man in juvenile court where the sentence would've been a lot less. >> 30 to 60 years for a crime where no one was seriously injured, much less skilled. as you know, and have noted before, you can be drunk as a lawyer, arrested for drunk driving on the way to the courthouse, you can fall asleep, you can literally be disbarred during the trial. that is all considered kosher in our judicial system. a lot of people don't realize, the significant difference between public defenders or often excellent attorneys and court appointed attorneys who don't have as good track record. >> they don't, and sometimes the financial incentives make it even worse. you have public defenders, their lifelong, they are committed, they do it all

the time. you have other letters, they pick up these cases for money. they get paid the same, but they do a good job or bad job. they get paid the same as you point out in your piece. they work on the case for ten hours, they get paid the same. the incentive is, as you point out, is to get a bunch of cases and do the minimum amount of work. that results in a lot of injustice. one positive though is that people are fighting back. dream dot org has a petition up now to get people who want to see this case resolved differently to go to dream dot org to sign up. you have lawyers like aaron from the reform alliance who's not getting involved in the -- this particular case, i think it will start a real movement. you have shapiro, krasner, and fetterman, three of the big legends in the pennsylvania politics. any of those three could take this case up and do something about it. i think this could start a movement to change this country where the sixth amendment applies again. what are the conservatives

concerned about? the big government, the government is gonna come get you. the only thing in the constitution that protects you and says that a sixth amendment lawyer can protect you. >> i would say during the commercial break, once you see the injustice is built into the system, you can't and see them. i was stunned to find out in pennsylvania they have a thing called the pcr a, you want to say i didn't get a fair trial in the courtroom of this judge. you go to get a ruling on that, the same judge, how many judges are gonna be like, you are right, i did a bad job here. >> ask him. one point that i would really like to make here is that john wrote a good book called locked up about over incarceration in this country. myself and others have been asking for a martial plan for indigent defense. frankly, that is not a lot of money when you can think about it in terms of what we are spending on so many areas. you've got to do it now

because you talked about what can happen in pennsylvania. well, you have to raise the standard of practice. you have to make it by statute and objective standard for what constitutes affective assistance of counsel. real categories. what marshall was complaining about from the beginning, he really knew, unless you lay it out and you have constitutional standards and it will have t o be done in the state. justice salito has already told us, he doesn't want standards constitutionalist, it has to be state by state by state. >> again, none of us want guilty people roaming the streets. we all want guilty people in prison. the thing is, are we sending innocent people to prison because of the inequities of the system? so great to have you here, so

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