and thank you so much for joining us now. you can follow me on facebook, instagram, and the tiktok at jake tapper. our coverage continues now with the magnificent laura coates and the awe inspiring alisyn camerota. laura, alisyn, how are you guys? >> we're good, jake tapper. >> we know your name, handsome jake tapper, that's what we refer to you as. >> hey, can i be a correspondent for you for one second? >> yeah, go ahead. >> so i'm watching, i'm from the commonwealth of pennsylvania, maybe you've

heard of that. >> a couple times. >> and so, i watched a lot of the oz fetterman debate. and interesting little tidbit, after the debate, the republican senator who's leaving, pat toomey, he wrote it's sad to see john fetterman struggling so much. he should take more time to allow himself to fully recover. a very pointed statement from a republican senator. the democratic senator from pennsylvania, casey, bob casey, wrote after the debate, fetterman has a clear record of public service, knows the commonwealth, cares about pennsylvania, will be a great senator. like no comment at all about the debate itself. i thought it was just kind of interesting that the two senators had those reactions. >> clearly a rorschach test. clearly how they want people to view this, through a particular lens. either they know, we're only two weeks away from the midterm elections, so these are the candidates. these are the options.

so, i guess they're reflecting that in terms of how they want people to have an understanding of what happened. >> and our panel will have very strong feelings. they watched too. and they've got very strong feelings about how john fetterman performed. i mean, obviously all eyes were on him. and it was challenging. >> it seemed like it at certain times. >> yeah. >> so, okay jake, thank you very much for setting the table for us. >> all right, guys. >> did you even see my philadelphia colors today? you're an eagles fan, right? >> yeah, but we just had a bye week, and i'm still in philly zone. we've got the world series to get through. if you wore a little powder blue and red tomorrow, that be awesome. >> done, easy. >> fine. >> good evening everyone, i'm laura coates. >> and i'm alyson camerota. this is cnn tonight. >> we've got all the big moments for what may be the closely watched debate of the mid term season, the one and only debate between john fetterman and dr. mehmet oz. what will it mean nationwide for democrats and republicans? >> plus, what happens to joe biden's presidency if there is

a red wave for the midterms? presidential historian jon meacham is going to be with us tonight. he will tell us why this is the most consequential election since the civil war. >> could you imagine if it really is? since the civil war? >> i trust him. any historical question whatsoever, he's pulitzer prize winning, so if he says it is, it must. people ask him his rationale. >> we'll ask him soon. can't wait for that conversation. let's kick it off now for former republican congressman charlie dent, also alyssa farah griffin, who was trump white house communications director, and tobin marcus, a former economic policy adviser to then vice president joe biden. look, there is a lot that happened tonight. we've been waiting for this debate. it has been will they debate, will they not debate? and now it's here, and the question is how would he perform given the stroke experienced back in may. he actually addressed it off the top, in part, let's play it. >> and let's also talk about the elephant in the room. i had a stroke. he has never let me forget that. and i might miss some words during this debate.

mush two words together. but it knocked me down, i'm going to keep coming back up. and this campaign is all about, to me, fighting for everyone in pennsylvania that ever got knocked down. that needs to get back up, and fighting for all, all communities across pennsylvania that also got knocked down that needs to keep getting back up. >> when you think about that, the idea of how he turned it into a discussion, really about, look, i am the every person. one, was that effective to you? that wasn't the moment people were talking about in struggling, frankly. but the idea of talking about it in that context, you were waiting for this debate, was that persuasive to you as a way to set the stage? >> no, it really was not. i thought somebody should vote the mercy rule 20 minutes into the debate. fetterman, in my view, i don't know if it was the stroke or he's just a lousy debater or if he doesn't understand the issues. he was flustered, he was confused.

he should have not been out there. and i've had a number of people say why was this guy on the ballot after that? i don't know if the debates matter that much. but if people watch that, they are going to question his capacity to serve. the bar was set very low. it should've been set lower. >> on that point, you've talked about that too, alisyn, the bar was set so low in the sense of dr. oz, you know him because he's the television personality. >> he's on tv, he's been doing it for two decades. that's what john fetterman was saying. but this was in a different category, it sounds like. so, let's listen to a moment where john fetterman struggles, seemed to struggle. >> i'm also having -- talk about something called the oz rule. that if he's on tv, he's lying. he did that during his career on his tv show. he's done that during his campaign about lying about our record here. and he's also lying, probably, during this debate. >> i want to bring civility,

balance, all of the things you want to -- because you've been telling them to me on the campaign trail. and by doing that, we can bring us together in a way that has not been done of late. democrats, republicans, talking to each other. john fetterman takes everything to an extreme. and those extreme positions hurt us all. >> alyssa, your thoughts as he watched that? >> dr. oz has the advantage of a career on tv. he's an excellent communicator but. that is not why he won tonight 's debate. he hit on every major issue that voters are focused on. the economy, crime in pennsylvania a huge issue, energy, he had substance behind him. and there's this unifying general election message. i want to be careful because i think some of the most consequential leaders in history have had different kinds of disabilities. i don't think it should preclude someone from serving. but what we saw today was someone who was not ready to be in office. and the lack of transparency leading up to this actually shocked people watching. it i found it extremely hard to watch. and the question i found myself asking is the way that he's struggling a result of his

stroke? or is it because he does not have a grasp on the issues? he was asked a very direct question about his position on fracking. he could not explain why he fundamentally changed his position on. it and the voters deserve to know that. >> i want to play that. because honestly, and tobin i want to hear your take on this as well, because what we played so far, frankly, for the audience who may have not seen these debate, i don't know it's conveying that level of difficulty answering the questions as much as we're talking about it right now. i want you to respond, tobin. but let's play the moment you're saying, alyssa, that is really suggestive and illustrative of the point that you are making. >> i always believe that independence with our energy is critical. we can't be held, you know, ransom to somebody like russia. you know, i've always believed that energy independence is critical. and i've always believed that. and i do support fracking. >> i do want to clarify something. you're saying tonight that you support fracking, that you've always supported fracking? but there is that 2018

interview where you said, quote, i do not support fracking at all. so how do you square the two? >> oh, i do support fracking. and i don't, i don't -- i support fracking. and i stand, and i do support fracking. >> tobin? >> yeah, the fracking answer that he gave was one of the lower moments in a generally tough performance. i think the clip that you played immediately before that, him sort of trying to lay out the oz rule, was an attempt to guard against what he knew was going to be a lot of incoming fire he was going to take. oz came in attempting to portray him as radical, that's clearly the strategy. i think he knew he was not going to have the nimbleness to respond to those in realtime. so, he was trying to make a certain blanket effort to, you know, create an issue around honesty and sort of validity of all his attacks. but for anyone who's coming into this totally undecided, if you drop a voter into harrisburg with no engagement

on this beforehand, it's hard to see them coming away terribly, terribly convinced by fetterman there. >> we should mention that he was using close captioning. so, he was using -- he was able to read the questions and the words rather than just hearing them. because he's admitted he has auditory processing issues now because of the stroke. and you know, charlie, i've interviewed him many times as lieutenant governor. and he sounds -- he sounded different before the stroke. in the interviews, he was much more sort of clear spoken than what i'm hearing now. here's a moment where their talk about their differences on the economy. so, let's play that. >> i can make the difficult decisions, as you do in the operating room as a surgeon. i will make them cutting our budget as well, to make sure we don't have to raise taxes on a population already desperately in pain from the high inflation rate. >> he has never met on an oil company that he does not swipe right about. he has never been able to stand up for working families all across pennsylvania. we must push back.

inflation has hurt americans and pennsylvania's families. it has given the oil companies record profits. >> i'm glad you played that, alisyn. because i feel like we've been hearing a lot about all the things he did wrong. and i have, you know, no skin in the game in this particular race. but why we did play something that to demonstrate, i did not think it was something that was so problematic compared to the juxtaposition that we saw earlier. >> well, you know, i just seems like these answers were not particularly coherent. and i'm being kind when i say that. on energy, pennsylvania is the second largest gas producing state in the nation. i wanted to hear him explain his evolution. he could not do it. i support fracking, i support -- well, he didn't, but he could not explain it. we want to hear him talk about crime and his role on the board of pardons. and i didn't hear anything that explained his rationale for some of the decisions, highly

questionable decisions, he made there. he was not able to articulate what it was that he stood for. and that was what was really troubling to me. again, i almost feel very sorry for him. that he's in a bad way. but as a voter, i'm saying, how can i vote from somebody who i do not think is ready to do the job? >> what do you think, tobin? because you worked for the vice president joe biden at the time. and truth be told, he was criticized, at times, for not being as nimble as he once was. obviously, different reasons. he was criticized for the way in which he would articulate certain points. and there wa always a bit of wind in the face of then candidate biden on that very point. when you're looking at it from that perspective, do you see the same concerns that they are talking about? >> i think the strains of president biden as a campaigner lines up with fetterman, despite his impairments, i think he can exit the level values with voters and his campaign has made that a very intentional focus. his blue-collar branding makes

the lack of polish forgivable to voters who are inclined to support him. and i think frankly in this debate, despite what was, you know, objectively a rough performance by fetterman, people who are inclined to be sympathetic to one candidate or the other probably came away with enough to sort of reinforce where they were. >> you don't think it's changed the momentum? >> given how people generally watch these things, it's hard for me to see this being a big inflection point in the polling, given how tight things are. negative partisanship is powerful, people have a lot of reasons to be where they are. this is the battle for the control of the senate, more so than the competence of the candidate. >> to put a bow on this, joe biden is -- critical of gaffes and statements, struggling to get different sentences out. but i've never been concerned that he has a grasp on the policy issues, even if i disagree with his policies. this was a candidate where i was geniunely unclear if he understood how to address crime, how to just economy and inflation. and then he did try to lob

attacks on oz, they did not land. it did not seem he had a full grasp. he went after him on wanting to cut medicare and social security. oz was ready for it, and he was not able to articulate. so i'm not a pennsylvania voter, but the momentum was on oz's side. >> we know there's already been 640000 pre election votes aren't cast. >> i'm one of them. >> and -- i've gone to democrats, versus 19% to republicans. and the idea is if the debates don't matter, i wonder to what extent this does works. but there's really a big issue. on the issue of immigration, for those issues that have not usually been the talking point in the state of pennsylvania compared to other places, they address that point tonight. listen to this. >> i understand what illegal immigration offers us. but the completely porous, open nature of our border, which john fetterman supports, has created a humanitarian crisis. with cartels profiting, with human trafficking operations, they take the money, they buy narcotics from china and bring that into our country.

it's making every state a border state. pennsylvania is already a borders stay because we're top three in the country and fentanyl overdoses. >> i believe a secure border can be compatible with compassion. i believe we need a comprehensive and bipartisan solution for immigration. that's what i believe. i don't ever recall in the statue of liberty that they say, you know, take our tired, huddled masses and put them on a bus. and use cheap political stunts about them. >> what did you think, charlie? that was a good -- >> that was one of his better answers of the night. again, i just am still astounded, i'm still stunned by what i witnessed tonight. and this is -- they should've had more debates, by the way. and this is a big state. there should be at least two debates, probably three. one in the philadelphia market, pittsburgh market, and like tonight, in harrisburg. but he did not want to debate for an obvious reason. and we witnessed it tonight. >> i mean, yeah, he was honest about that. he was honest about why he did not want to debate.

and his speech would be halting, and would take him a while to process. and i think we are seeing evidence of that. but he was the lieutenant governor. he did not come out of nowhere. he is the lieutenant governor. so surely he is steeped in policy issues, opposed to -- >> not really, knowing what the lieutenant governor does is pennsylvania. i always said it's amazing what some guys will do to get a house, a driver, and a swimming pool. you don't vote on policy, you can only vote on procedure. and rarely do they ever vote. >> i want to ask mr. tobin, i've heard this articulated earlier today, and i think you made the point, i wished the, i don't think we should be naive to believe that one's acumen in regards to policies is the only determining factor for people who are running for office. trump was criticized for not having a command of policy, compared to say, hillary clinton, who was also criticized for not having the acumen compared to, say, elizabeth warren and the

textbooks that she would bring out to explain the policies. in a sense, it can be relative. but this debate and all debates are highly performative. and that's the objectivity that i think people are talking about here. that if the battle is really about, do i like them, how do you perform, that's the crux of the issue here. not that he did not have the complete command as if it's a universal requirement. >> right, absolutely, at the level of performance, i think it's very clear that oz, quote unquote, won the debate. the question is whether or not that is the decisive factor in terms of how voters are looking at that. you mentioned likability, i think a lot voters and quite like him anyways. someone outside washington, a very different politician, i think that does not come away particularly shaken by this. and if he was your uncle, i think you'll be encouraged by the progress you see since the stroke that he had. and people that have some sympathy for him, some pre-existing affinity, i think they probably find something to like in this. so probably it still just comes down to what are starkly

different policy platforms of the two candidates have. >> right. >> there are not a lot of people who don't know which policy platform lines up. >> final thoughts on this? >> we did not get to the abortion part on this by that was a masterful answer by doctor oz who's motoring himself on abortion because he needs women to turn out. >> and basically that answer what i would give to the states. i do not want a federal -- >> and exceptions for rape, incest, life for the mother. >> can he tell you about how we although order sanders about what it takes be? senator are we seeing that? problem we need to talk about georgia. we'll talk during the break about that. >> all, right let us know about what you think of this all that you've heard from the big moments this night between fetterman and. was what are your thoughts, tell us, that anything else you want to say lori and me, and mean anything. >> i mean within reason. >> tweet us at alison camaraderie and laura coats.

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mail letters ship packages anytime anywhere for less a lot less get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and get started today pennsylvania senate candidates john fetterman and mehmet oz facing off tonight in their first and only debate. it's a critical race that could determine which party controls the senate. and some of the focus tonight was on 2024. >> mr. oz, donald trump has supported you. he has endorsed you. why won't you fully commit to supporting him in 2024? >> oh, i do. i would support donald trump if he decided to run for president. >> do you support a biden run in 2024? why in 60 seconds.

>> obviously, it's up to his choice. and if he does choose to run, i would absolutely support him. >> okay, well there's nobody better to discuss what's at stake then presidential historian jon meacham. he has, at times, advised president biden and is author of a new book called there was light, abram ham lincoln and the american struggle. jon, thanks for being here. >> great to be. here >> you are so good at giving us the great picture. tell us why you think this is the most important election since 1850. >> i think it's the most important election, easily since that period, because we are facing a stress test for the rule of law. and democracies run, not just on policies, not just about what a particular policy or tax rate is, it's about an overall context of our mutual respect for each other as fellow citizens. and a sanctity of law and

custom that means that people who win elections legitimately get to serve in office. when you deplete the trust in the system, which is what is unfolding today around the country, and i will confess, as george w. bush said, i misunderestimated the power of the big lie here. but it's burrowed in. and democracies do not long endure if everything becomes about power, at the expense of winning humbly and losing graciously. >> speaking of the big lie, and i read this in your book, you touched on this notion. i think people would not, and it would not occur to them, that both lincoln and biden are grappling with or at some point were grappling with their own version of the big lie. in lincoln's case, it was the big lie that slavery was a

justifiable institution that ought to be maintained. and you write in the book there were three moments where had he succumbed to the pressure, had his vice president succumbed to the pressure, as he turned over the fort sumter to try and placate the confederacy and placate a civil war, the course of history might be very different. you draw these analogies in a way that is not always so obvious, but it's fastening to think how it would work today. >> the central question for all of us, i think, and this is about leaders and the led, and we're all on the hook for this, for the continuation of the constitutional experiment, the question is, do we put our own interest above everything else? and if you do, then this becomes a war of all against all. and if it's all politics, as opposed to also having a moral component, and i'm not preaching here, moral means how we are with each other. it's about custom. if we go entirely political, if it's entirely every moment is

this battle, this cataclysmic, the system does not endure. so as you kind of mentioned, abraham lincoln, if he had been solely a politician, he would have made several, could've made several different decisions that would probably have sustained slavery, certainly late into the 19th century. and possibly into the 20th century. because there was a perfectly rational compromise on the table. after he wins the presidency, to expand slavery to the west, let it go into arizona and new mexico. and what was america but an exercise in compromise? lincoln said no. and partly, it's kind of like what churchill did in 1940, he saw that appeasement had not worked. and if in fact you gave in once more, that the south, the white south, where i come from, was not just interested in slavery in its limited sphere.

there was an ambitious plan to take slavery, to add cuba to the empire, to add mexico, nicaragua, to build this, it's called the golden circle. and it was going to expand. and it would have fundamentally changed the course of everything. and abraham lincoln, flawed, infallible, said no. and he said no because he believed fundamentally the slavery had to die, the union had to live. >> so, jon, why hasn't joe biden and the democrats, why haven't they been able to defeat this big lie that has burrowed in, as you say? why in this, you know, 2022, with all of the facts available at our fingertips that can debunk the notion that donald trump, who lost the election, that it was somehow stolen from him, why has it burrowed into this degree now? >> it's part of human nature. it's a miracle we've gotten

this far when you think about it. almost 250 years, i think it would've surprised the founders. and the analogy we are talking about, the civil war, let's remember, the white south was willing to fight a war that ultimately claimed probably 750,000 lives, rather than give up human enslavement. so, america did not wake up in 1861 one morning and say, you know what, i think it's time to emancipate, enter a modern world, and seek an integrated society. we did not really do that until 1965. that's the founding of the era we're in. we're sitting in a country that's about 60 years old, if you think about it, right. voting rights and civil rights, the immigration laws that shifted the way the country is, all were in 1964 and 1965. so, there is a perennial selfishness. there is appetite. there's ambition.

and the remarkable thing about the united states is we've managed to get just enough right. that doesn't mean we stop, that doesn't mean we're self-satisfied. but we have to remember that this is a day by day, generation by generation, struggle to put a more perfect union ahead of just whatever we want in this moment. >> really insightful, thinking about the founding of the country as we know it around the civil rights movement period, really profound text as well. and of course, you write about the idea of the very difficult task of trying to appeal to conservatives and liberals. the work is certainly still cut out for the modern-day president. thank you. >> thanks jon, and the book again is there ess light, abraham lincoln and the american struggle. thank you for being on. >> very interesting, it always is. i can listen to him every day all night long. >> we don't have all night. we've got other people to talk to tonight through midnight tonight. it's also about, well, have you

heard about reinstating with back pay? this is a story out of new york where a judge ruled that some new york workers who have been fired for refusing to get the vaccine can now get their jobs back, with back pay. stay with us. vo: the next time you fill up the tank, remember why it costs so much.

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i love san francisco, but i'm working overtime to stay here. now is not the time to raise taxes. i'm voting no on propositions m and o, because the cost of everything is going up. san francisco collects more tax revenue than nearly any city in america. but our streets are dirty and public safety is not getting better.

i'm working hard to live within my budget. the city should too. join me in voting no on m and o. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. is it a sign are moving closer to post covid america? because today and new york state judge reinstated 16 fired new york city sanitation workers who fail to comply with city's vaccine mandate. in a ruling, the judge found the mandate to be arbitrary and capricious. he also said the fired workers should get back pay as well. -- city releasing a statement cnn following the ruling, saying in part the city strongly disagrees with this ruling and has already filed an appeal. joining us now, he's chomping

at the bit to weigh in on this issue, cnn legal analyst joey jackson, alyssa farah griffin and toby marcus are back with us. first of all, joey, arbitrary and capricious, his point was look, you pull this back from the private sector employees like an athlete or a musician, but public workers, you said no. >> absolutely. so, so there has to be some uniformity, right. when you make rules, the rules have to apply to everyone, and they should apply to everyone in a rational way. you can't, for economic reasons say, oh, baseball season is starting, okay. so as a result of that, we're going to make an exemption for private employers and athletes, as you noted. but one comes to those who are first responders, those who have dawned the uniform and assist in the city, when it's collecting trash or putting out fires or maintaining our jail system, the reality is that it cannot be arbitrary. laura, it cannot be capricious. and i think the judge got it right. you read the statement, of course, from the lot apartment, we're going to appeal, this is outrageous. but the reasoning is very sound.

to the extent that you've got disparaging treatment between two forces, it can't stand, and it won't. >> beyond the legal argument, isn't this just practical? we need workers. we certainly need sanitation workers. and covid -- the height of the pandemic, when something like 4000 americans were dying, is over it. do you like this idea of them going back to work with back pay? >> you know, the back pay issue all defer to the attorneys. the politics of this mirror the legal analysis in that were either in these situations where we need to have all these rules in place or not. and i think as life is gone back to normal, as we've gotten pretty clear message from political leadership and a lot of relaxation of mandates, i think it's unsustainable to keep specialized rules in place for too long. >> in a way, they kind of used biden, the judge in this case use president biden's word to support the statement. essentially saying, hey, according to president biden, the pandemic is over. and in new york, the man at the -- the state of emergency ended over a month ago. the politics, in a, way really

drove this conversation. >> we're far out of the triage phase of covid. we know is behind us. most americans are go back to normal life. or back in offices, schools, kids are thanked back in the classroom. the one caution i would put on this as we're heading into the winter season, i was working in the white house, department of defense when the pandemic first broke out, we always see an uptake in cases in the winter season. people are forced back inside in closer quarters. so we should not be lax in laws a fair about the basic protocols we know. we're going to see spikes in the winter. we still have about four and people a day dying from covid. so it's still here. but i agree with the ruling, it totally makes sense. and we need the workers to fill the role. >> not surprisingly, this came up, joey, before your answer, this came up the new york governor's debate tonight. so they have been takes on it. here it is. >> i will not mandate covid vaccines for your kids ever. i don't believe that there should be covid vaccine mandates for our kids in sunni and cuny and many colleges and elsewhere. i believe that that mandate was wrong. and that everyone who has been

fired should be offered their job back with back pay. >> you and donald trump with a masterful covid deniers. we are dealing with a real crisis. and the more people get vaccinated, get those shots in arms, and i would do it all over again what i did last year. >> so i think there is a distinction between getting vaccinated and saying it's a great idea, and you absolutely should do it. and a mandate, which requires that you do it. and that's the big issue here, right. the reality is that vaccination, from a scientific perspective, forget what the politics, forget about red versus blue et cetera, vaccination saves lives. should the government be imposing that requirement? and taking it back, last point, new york, should you in imposing the requirement be drawing decisions in one workforce or another, predicated on who is drawing revenue into the city? the people who put uniforms on, their heroes, first responders, why we penalizing them? but athletes, you get a pass. can't happen. treat everyone equally, and i think you move forward.

>> and the fact that these were state or public sector employees, they had a due process hook on this as well, right. the idea that, look, you have to have a certain property right or interest in being able to have that employment others may not. and they were not afforded the same care. >> yeah, without. questions so, due process is that -- opportunity here. and before someone from the health department imposes something on, you should have something to say about it. you just cannot get a letter in the mail saying you are fired, right. so i think that played big into it, in addition to the equal protection. similarly situated people should be treated similarly. remember they taught us that in law school? >> i remember that. >> and that did not happen here. >> joey, looked just as sharp in law school. >> oh sure. >> not at all. i don't look sharp now? >> i hear he falls out a bed like that. >> you are kind. >> okay, you have to stick around to hear the story. because they thought they were going to the bottom of the grand canyon for a 20-minute trip. 20 hours later, they were still

stuck there. up next, the family who got trapped in the grand canyon caverns.

okay, imagine getting stuck and trapped 200 feet underground in an ancient cave known as grand canyon caverns in arizona. this happened this week to one family after the elevator that took them below ground malfunctioned. that's when they had to figure out how to get everyone up and out, including a baby, a toddler, and seniors with bad backs and knees. joining me now are douglas grashel and his step daughter sherry jiminez, who were stranded down there. guys, good to see you, up and doing well. sherry, just take us through this. your family, there are eight of you, including a five month old

and a two year old, you decided to go into this cavern for a 20-minute walk because it would be easy for the whole family, for the grandparents and for the two year old, it was a flat 20 minute walk. you took the elevator down into the caverns. then you took the walk. you got back into the elevator. and what happened? >> the elevator did not move. [laughs] and so they called up to the top and let them know that it was not working. and they said they would reset it. and it still did not move. >> and how long were you stuck down there? >> in total, the last person out, it was 31 hours. >> oh, my gosh, 31 hours. and so, douglas, what was their suggestion for those 31 hours for how everybody was supposed to get out? >> well, our group was a short tour.

and there was a another long tour group that was behind us. and when the elevator failed at approximately 11:30, the other group had caught up with us. and by that time, you could smell the smoke in the elevator shaft and see the smoke coming down into the cavern. >> and sherrie, hold on, did you guys have food and water down there? >> we had water to begin with. and they brought us down food after we requested it. and then after many questions that were asked, they finally decided that, besides myself, my wife, sherry, the toddlers and the baby, there was no way in the world that we were going to be able to make it up. i've got back surgery scheduled.

my wife's got two artificial knees and is having trouble with those. >> and let me just point out, because we have a picture of this, there is an emergency staircase, or stairs, i guess, 22 flights. and this is the picture of them, which is not comforting. because basically, sherry, describe for us what those stairs, 22 flights up, were like, what it would be like to climb those. >> well, your footing would be set on a steel plank that was smaller than the size of a regular ladder. and one side had a hand rail that was completely open. there was no measure of protection from the stair to the top of the handrail. it was completely open. on the right side and on the left side, there was nothing, no handrail or anything at all. >> and why did it take the folks who run this elevator 31

hours to get you all out? >> i believe they did not want to call any emergency services. we were told, we asked them to call for 9-1-1. we had no service whatsoever down there. so there was no way for us to call anybody or use the phone. so, we had told him that we want them to call emergency services, the fire department, somebody to get us some help. and initially, they declined, saying that they would not come out because they have an escape route, which is the stairway within the shaft of the elevator. >> but they originally told us that the walapai fire department had been called at 5:00. and they refused to come out because there was no medical emergency. they never called at 5:00.

>> they never called at 12 when the smoke was there. we asked them to call, and they never called. we kept insisting. and initially, they said they would not, because they would not come out. well, after several requests, they said they did call. and peach springs, which is the walapai tribe, declined to come out because there was no emergency medical condition that resulted in the need of their emergency services. nobody was dying, basically. >> but there could've been at any given moment, given that you had a five month old baby, you know, without food and a toddler and some compromised seniors. i just want you guys to know that we did call grand canyon caverns for their response and their explanation. we've not heard back yet. but we will let you know when we do. douglas and sherry, we're just happy that you guys are okay. you made it out alive. but i know that that was pretty traumatic.

thanks so much for being on and sharing your story with us. >> well, there's a lot more to this story. [laughs] if you've got about an hour or so. >> well, i don't, but i can tell that your phone will be ringing with a hollywood producer at any moment, i'm sure. and you will have a primetime movie to discuss everything that went on for the 31 hours. so, consider this a start. thank you, great to talk with you. >> all right, bye. >> oh my gosh, my eyelash popped off. that's how that story. was it that's how stressful it was. they did not want to stay on,. >> i don't know if you can see that ladder, but it's a ladder. it's a ladder, basically, without a railing, up 22 floors. you are carrying a five month old, a two year old, it was impossible. they had to wait. and then, we have another picture of them actually having to hoist them up 22 stories in, like, a sort of hammock thing that they -- i don't know it's that one.

but, anyways, it was intense. and i think that douglas is right, there's more to that story that they want to tell. >> there's more to that story, and more about how i will not be there. what would you do if you got stuck in grand canyon caverns? tweet us at alisyn camerota and me laura coates. someone come fix my eyelash too, because it popped off. >> these are both emergencies. [laughs] stamps.com is convenient you get the services of the post office right on your computer stamps.com saves you money with great rates from usps and ups mail letters ship packages anytime anywhere for less a lot less get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and get started today

so, when is retirement not retirement? because we're beginning to see a big trend of sports heroes that are retiring, and then alison, not retiring. there serena williams, who announced at the u.s. open, that she would quote, of all

the way from tennis, only to tell the audience at a tech conference just last week, and i'm quoting here, i'm not retired. and then there's tom brady. who's unretirement from the nfl, may have, they say, cost him his marriage to gisele bündchen. whether that's true or not, we will see. >> i think it's very interesting that while much of the workforce is quiet quitting -- >> are they doing? that >> there is notable people who are unretiring there's got to be a happy medium between quiet quitting and unretiring. someone in there you have to be happy but i do think it's interesting, also you are saying that a lot of politicians are unretiring >> are you kidding? the governor's race in florida, that's charlie crist, who by the way, unretire from the governor to become a gubernatorial candidate again. and then you have people like -- >> donald trump. >> or joe biden, joe biden unretiring again. what is about the power, is just the public service? notion >> i don't think so.

it's your identity in it's really hard to know what you are after that and walk away from that. >> and you're so good. it's not like either of them or at the bottom of their game. we're talk about both in their own respects, the g.o.a.t.. >> yeah, and you're right. so, why leaving your still that? good >> why have you not? laughed >> because your that. could >> i know. there you go. >> [laughs] >> >> let us know what you think of all of that. >> not to go. >> meanwhile, two weeks out from election day. major debates in the hotly contested races that could determine the balance of power in congress and the major line of attack, one of them, is crime. so, we are going to bring you the big moments on that topic, right after this. i know what i like. i've been meaning to ask you, carl. does your firm offer personalized index investing? hmm? so i can remove a stock that doesn't align with my goals. i'm a broker, not a barista. what about managing gains and losses to be more tax efficient? not a wizard either. looks like schwab personalized indexing can.

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kids getting hooked on flavored tobacco, including e-cigarettes.

big tobacco lures them in with flavors like lemon drop and bubble gum, candy flavors that get them addicted to tobacco products, and can lead to serious health consequences, even harming their brain development. that's why pediatricians urge you to vote yes on prop 31. it stops the sale of dangerous flavored tobacco and helps protect kids from nicotine addiction. please vote yes on 31. vote yes on prop 31. two weeks from tonight, polls will be closing in key battleground states, which means the candidates have just 13 days to make their final pitch to voters. and an issue that we will likely hear a lot about, we're already hearing about is crime. so there is a lot to discuss with our cnn political commentators. we have scott jennings, kare