>> thanks so much for watching. i'll be back here tomorrow night. i hope you will be to. our coverage continues now with alison camerota. >> oh, i'll be back here tomorrow night. great show.

fantastic. thanks so much. this is cnn tonight. i'm alison camera. the supreme court says donald trump's tax returns must be turned over to congress. this is something the former president has been fighting for years. it took us fight all the way to the supreme court. and today, they have ruled against him. so, when might we see what's in his taxes? our experts will get into that. and that's just one of the legal issues hanging around trump. that seem to be accelerating. but turn around -- and republicans are planning a smorgasbord of their own investigations that we will lay out for you. plus, new information on the investigation into the colorado springs lgbtq nightclub shooting. we have disturbing new details about the suspect's teenage years. and if you ever played out in your own head what you would do in an active shooter situation, you are not alone. one of our guests tonight says it is time to rethink the advice to run, hide, fight. we'll find out what she says to do. but let's start with donald trump's taxes.

he would meet our cnn senior legal analyst elliott honig, former senator al franken, and former senator joe walsh. great to have all of you here. elie, this is something he's been fighting for years, since 2015, when donald trump i was running for president he promised he was going to turn over his taxes and show them to the american public. any never did it. he claimed he was being audited. we had no. idea and now, one of the supreme courts decide on what grounds today? >> the supreme court said you are out of luck. and those tax returns have to go to the house ways and means committee. and this, in many ways, is the table call donald trump legal battle. here's why. he got wiped out at every level of federal courts. start in the district court, lost. they're just records that federal -- name into the court of appeals. three judges, 3 to 0, said trump, you lose, congress, you win. that he tried to get the whole d.c. circuit to take the case. they said no thank you. so still, he still hasn't got a single judge. and then try to the supreme court, and today, they issued a two sentence ruling saying no, we're good, not a single to center. so, he loses at every level.

yet, as you said, alisyn, what does he get, delay. here we are, this legal battle in particular has been going on for over two years. >> but doesn't have to happen out? now the irs has to turn it over, right? >> yes, they have to turn over. where 40 some days though from congress flipping over to the house. i will say this though. if you look at the law that the house ways and means committee used to get these tax returns, it also says they have to use individual tax returns of a former president confidential. so, we should not expect to see them unless they are leaked contrary to that law. >> that's interesting, because i was wonder when the american public would be able to see them. what could possibly be in there that he doesn't want to see? >> oh, he is a criminal. [laughter] you know, you know when he said if i could stand on fifth avenue and shoot somebody, i would lose -- i won't lose any votes. he may have been right about that. but he would've been prosecuted for shooting someone. he's gonna be prosecuted. he's going to be held

accountable. jack smith -- we have a special prosecutor, he's going to be prosecuted. >> so, those are given. things obviously, that's for the january 6th investigation, as well as the holding of the classified documents. >> and he's going to be in georgia. i mean, how criminal is that? i need you to find me 11,780 votes, on tape, and if you don't -- >> alisyn, there are so many. >> let's pull them up, so here is the investigation that donald trump is involved in right now. what he's been investigated for. you were alluding to it, senator. there's everything for the manhattan da, the trump organization, the house ways and means committee tax pro, the georgia election interference, the january six committee, of course, the doj is also looking into january 6th and whether he instigated the riot. doj, the classified documents that he ordered at mar-a-lago. the new york attorney general, the fraud lawsuit. so, there is a lot that he is looking at. and you are saying, senator, that he will be held accountable for something. >> oh, god, yeah, the only

thing worse then prosecuting him is not prosecuting him. he is going to be prosecuted. >> he has to. and the senator is right, he has to. he better be. but, alisyn, he was the danger. they have been going after him rightly on so many fronts for so long. his voters now believe he is the most persecuted president, probably the most persecuted american in american history. so, the scary thing is, all these investigations and an indictment are coming down the road. weirdly, might strengthen him with his republican base. >> with his. base and i hear what you're saying. i remember when he was found with all the classified and top secret documents at mar-a-lago. and he had something to the effect of if they can do this to me, just think they can do to you. yes, if i classified documents at my house, they would also do that to me. i found that logic to be so funny. >> you are right. but alisyn, republicans rallied around him after that mar-a-lago rate. just crazy. >> i should say, we could be heading for a really unique moment in american history. where you could have an active

candidate, a leading candidate, perhaps, for president, who's under indictment. there is a very real chance he's indicted by fulton county, by the special prosecutor. i want to say, people assume sometimes that if you are indicted, that means you're not out. it doesn't. you could be convicted of most has it still run for president. so -- >> which one of those that we just put up their will come true? >> most likely, fulton county, they've given all indications they're moving very aggressively and they intend to indict. >> you mean election interference in georgia? >> yes, and the second thing, is the for looking at special counsel jack smith, i think the more likely to indict on the mar-a-lago documents. so, we could see even two investigations. again, who knows? but here's the thing. indictment is up to the prosecutor. yes, you can go to a grand jury. but prosecutors can get grand juries to indict whoever they want, there's truth of that. at some saying, there's truth that. but indictment is just the start. and you asked the question before, is there gonna be accountability? it depends what you concerned ability. indictment, i think that's increasingly likely to happen. >> just adjudication, i think

people would consider justice. adjudication for some. >> it's better than nothing, as the center. said >> will there be any accountability for january 6th, in your mind? donald trump incited and lad a violent attempt to overthrow an american election. >> i think the county is increasingly likely to charge that. whether doj does, especially if fulton county has charge, if you're sitting there doj, you may say, well, they've got that piece, we'll do the documents, there's a lot of moving parts. >> and i talk about what joe said? which is, yeah, maybe it will whip up his supporters. this last election, the american people said stop it. stop it. all the deniers in key races lost. donald trump, you know, maybe he'll get the nomination. who knows. because all you need are 30% in primaries, if there's a big field. that's basically what started him in 16.

but it's not -- i don't know if it's a majority of the republican party. maybe it is? >> i hear what your. saying and a voter said stop the chaos, then let's go to the next point, which is all the investigations republicans are planning when they take back control of the house in january. so, i will just take through these. they want to know the origin of the covid-19 pandemic. i'm glad this is amazing to you, senator. kevin mccarthy wants to know about china and investigate their theft of intellectual property. the conduct of health officials during covid-19, including anthony fauci. the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan, which was a disaster. january 6th committee, situation at the southern border, the fbi, irs, they want to try and impeach secretary mayorkas. education department officials, and hunter biden. senator, what do you think of all of? this >> [laughter] i'd start with hunter biden, because as i said, i think the american people said stop it. but these -- the republicans are full of crazies or people who are just

chicken. and i -- i think mccarthy is in the latter group. they'll do hunter biden and the american people, they'll do exactly what the american people don't want them to do. some of those are legit. and you should look at. but, you know, jim jordan leading [laughter] the judiciary committee of the house. [laughter] >> this is more i'm using to you. >> all is right. my former party has been overtaken by crazies. kevin mccarthy may be speaker, probably. but marjorie taylor greene will be the de facto speaker, period. >> for real? >> for real. >> how will she be the speaker? >> she will have such sway over him. look at what they've been emphasizing already. they're leading with all this crazy stuff, why? because mccarthy has to have marjorie taylor greene and the rest of her crazy all lined up.

>> because otherwise she'll tweet something? i mean, what is the downside? why can't he alienate marjorie taylor greene? >> because he doesn't want her to be the face of the party for the next two years. and if she doesn't get what she wants, alisyn, she will become the face of the. party >> and joe -- >> how long is it gonna be speaker is the question? >> she's been talking on the i-word, impeachment. she's already drafted impeachment. we're talk about secretary mayorkas, attorney general merrick garland, talking about joe biden. i'm interested to see what you think if they do. that but i do want to say. this little legal wrangle here, you can certainly impeach a president, vice president, over the constitution. it's actually not clear under law that can constitutionally impeach a secretary, a cabinet. it's only happened once, secretary of war in 1870's, and not since. so, they may be barking up the roundtree. but mayorkas is gonna be their first target, i think. >> you agree? >> i think there -- >> that's what they're saying out loud. but i don't know. >> because they can focus on the border, the border, the

border. >> okay, gentlemen, thank you very much, stick around, great conversation. we have to talk about this. the colorado springs suspected behind bars tonight. and we're getting new accounts from survivors. but i'm sure many of us have wondered what we would do in a horrifying situation like that. our next security expert says the old run, hide, fight advice may be outdated. is the planning effect. this is how it feels to have a dedicated d fidelity advisr lookining at your full financial picture. this is what it's like to have a compmprehensive wealth plan with tax-smart investing strategies designed to help you keep more of what you earn. and set aside more for things like healthcare, or whatever comes down the road. this is "the planning effect" from fidelity. (brent) people love subaru just because it stands for much more than just a car. (vo) through the share the love event, subaru retailers have supported over seventeen hundred homewn charities. (phil) have i wnessed and seen the impact of what we do?

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>> the first court hearing is set for tomorrow for the suspect in the deadly mass shooting at the colorado springs lgbtq nightclub. five people were killed, and at least 19 injured in saturday's attack. police say the carnage could have been much worse if not for the bravery of two people who took down the attacker. ever since the mass shootings have become our way of life, the conventional advice for people caught in the middle is to run and get out. if you cannot do that, try to hide. i'd only after that fails, try to fight back. but cnn national security analyst julia cayenne has a new piece in the atlantic, saying it may be time to rethink that strategy. and juliet joins me now. juliet, it's great to see. what i read your piece with great interest. if not run, hide, fight, then what? what is the solution?

>> well, look, fighting was always the last resort. i think we just have to be honest about the evidence. and i just want to start with a beginning. we should be in a rational society we would not be having this conversation. how do you survive an ar attack in a confined area. that's essentially the conversation we're having. but if you're going to be judging success by fewer people dying, the evidence is starting to show that engagement with the killer, if you can't get out, because in these confined spaces you often can't, it can decrease the harm. it's at great peril to the person or people who are doing it, as we've seen in colorado, and as we've seen in other instances. so, why does this matter? because the run, hide, fight logo, or the slogan, everything people in my field believe that came out of 1999, begin with columbine, and that lessens was the kids should get out or they should hide.

but what happened when they hid in the library was that was where all the kids were killed. two decades later, go to the pulse nightclub. when they died, most of the people who died, who were killed, were killed in the bathroom. because they tried to hide there. so, running is not an option. it's not entirely clear hiding is a good option. because of two realities. these mass shootings are happening more frequently. and people are getting killed too quickly with this weaponry. i want to be clear here, statistics from the fbi, as a role in the peace, are 70% mass shootings and before the police can arrive. and 31% of them and after two minutes. i think that's basically what happened colorado. >> but juliette, it obviously just can be a one size fits all piece of advice. because i'm not richard fierro. richard fierro is a 15-year veteran. he is a big guy. and he has that kind of metal

where he ran towards the guy with the weapon of war. i, five foot three alisyn, can crawl into a very tight ball, very small. and i can hide more easily than richard fierro. so, it's just hard -- first of all, like you say, i can't believe we have to have this conversation. >> it's our third conversation. >> but we have to have our conversation, because it's gone through all our heads. isn't it just, you know, whatever you are capable of doing? >> it's both. so, i -- what's the alternative, right? it's both situational and personal. and so, you know, in these instances where you have a former vet who happens to be there. but thank god, is willing to go forward. we've seen other instances where members of the public who don't have that kind of training are able to disarm or basically what we call it is you take the fight to the shooter. in other words, if you're able to distract them, what you are trying to do is buy time.

that is what these guns have not given us. they do not give the victims time to run. and they do not give law enforcement time to come in. i am, as you know, been on the show many times do. the capacity for guns to kill quickly as change everything, because the best law enforcement response, forget the uvalde, the best law enforcement response is going to take a minute or two. and after dressing that's out there in response to this. there is very minimal evidence that arming more people, a good guy with a gun, makes us safer. there are instances where people like me have to be honest about those instances, the indiana mall earlier this year. there was a gunman who killed a potential mass shooter. but it is not that more guns is the solution. if that was the, case it would be the safest country on earth. it's just that this is going to be situational now. especially in instances where the running is difficult. >> such a great point.

there was an armed guard in buffalo, you know, at a supermarket. there was an armed guard at parkland. you, know we've -- obviously, there were comps all over uvalde. so, it just does show the a logic of that notion. juliette kayyam, i thank you very much, really provocative piece. >> thank you, happy thanksgiving. >> you as well. so, attorneys for the accused shooter, anderson lee all trudge, said in new court filings tonight that the suspect, now identifies as non binary. in a footnote to a motion, asserting legal privileges, public defenders say, quote, anderson aldridge is non-binary. they use they them pronouns. and for the purposes of all formal filings will be addressed as mixed aldridge. so another word, not mr. or ms.. joining me now cnn political correspondent earl lewis, also al franken and joe walsh, back in. the i don't want to, say that's

not anything we heard from his background. people looking into his background, and i don't know if anyone here -- are you guys lawyers? i mean, you know, i don't know what to say about that. that's what he's now saying. >> it sounds like they're trying to prepare a defense against the hate crimes charge. that's the least of his problems, legally speaking. but it looks like they're trying to build some kind of sympathy or at least confusion on the question of whether or not this was purely motivated by hate. >> that is what it sounds. like we will wait to see. back to that conversation that i was just having with juliette, have you thought about? that have you had to think about what what i do in that active shooter? situation and that's the great tragedy. as these gentlemen, know we've been stuck legislatively on trying to get any -- what it leaves us the rest of us in a situation we go back prison. time and back within, time i mean back to the 17th century. when, you know, tomas hobbs writes love ian and is talking about a war of all against all. and the whole point of governors to make it that we

are not all forced to sort of fight for our lives at any given moment. but that is where we are heading. make no mistake about. it and it is an outrageous situation that we find ourselves in. we have not been able to legislate our way out of it. frankly, you know, run, hide, or fight applies politically. you cannot run from this question. you cannot hide from responsibilities as a citizen or as a voter. and at this time, fight. back >> alisyn, what is so frustrating about this incident is legislatively, there was a law on the books, darn it. they had a red flag law, and it was not enforced. that county, el paso county, colorado, the law enforcement in that county has basically publicly said they are not going to enforce the red flag laws. and also, furthermore, joe, it relies on the appearance, the parents, the parents saying i can press charges against my son. we saw this with a highland park shooter as well. often, others don't want to do. that so, police. leave that is a loop hole we

need to figure out and red flag laws. >> we have seen an uptick. and i don't know about this person and the shooter and his situation. but, there's been an uptick in hate crimes. and there's been an uptick in hate and republican politics. you know, do not say legislation. all that does is isolate people who are vulnerable, kids who are already isolated. we've seen an uptick in antisemitic violence and anti asian violence and anti-lgbtq. and it is exploiting hate for political purposes to get power. and it's very dangerous. and this is, i think, part of, again, what the american people want to stop. >> and obviously, everybody wants to stop mass shootings.

but somehow we've just accepted now that this is a part of our lives. this is a part of our lives. and somehow we are all sitting ducks. so, our kids have to have active duty trainings in their classrooms from the time they're in first grade. and we ought to figure out, okay, should be run or hide or fight. because every single week we report on that. >> they are a fact of life. they need to be minimized. this guy should not have had a gun. my, god there was a bomb threat a year before against his mom. law enforcement could have been taking his guns away. >> i want to believe that. i hope that. i want to believe that what we have been told is that it has to be adjudicated, you know. he has to be like convicted or something. >> i think that's separate from the red flag. law law enforcement -- >> just, why do we have assault weapons? there is no reason for assault weapons. there is no reason to have them. it's insane. and the number of mass

shootings, again, has gone up significantly. there is no reason at all. there is no one that needs an assault weapon. no one needs to go hunting -- >> you know as well as anyone how hard it is in congress to fight that. >> yeah -- >> and once the assault weapons ban last, land it never got back. and you are never able to hold together again. >> and what the gun industry did was just make more affective assault weapons. sandy hook was a bushmaster that was designed to kill people in close quarters. >> absolutely. >> it's sick. >> it is sick, but the biden administration tells us they've had the first bipartisan gun legislation in 30 years. but i'm not sure it gets to the heart of the matter. >> it doesn't. and look, the hundreds of congress, like the several before it, made a little bit of progress. but not much and not enough. i would predict, broadly, that 116 of -- the 118th congress, when some of these kids have been brought

up with shooter drills and bulletproof backpacks and all the garbage that we have and except as normal, when they get an opportunity, when they get into politics, when they get their hands on the levers of power, when they've got a trail of stories from parkland all the way back to columbine, i think they are going to get rid of all the stuff. >> i don't think other congresses have achieved anything. i know when i was there after sandy hook, it was amazing that we couldn't get background checks. americans want background checks. >> poll after poll, poll after poll shows a huge majority support them. >> that's where both sides can and should come together. >> and it's amazing they cannot. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. okay, we will now talk about sports, because we all know how good i am with this. it's a world cup full of off the pitch controversies. and now, there is all kinds of on the pitch trauma as well. so, we are going to explain one of the biggest upsets in world cup history, next. help comfort your loved ones.

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>> the excitement is growing for the u.s. versus england's friday in the rock up, even with the controversy surrounding games, fans are still showing up. what do we all need to know about the world cup? obviously, i could tell you, but i decided to call in john berman to explain to all of us from the matches to the controversy. berman? >> alison, there are two things going on at this world cup. first, where it is. it is in qatar. having been there, i can say

you can say it either way. the issue with qatar is how it treats its migrant workers, the guest workers, the people who built all these brand-new stadiums where all of the events are happening there. they have been severely criticized, the nation has, for the treatment of these guest workers, that they live in support of the -- conditions and they don't have the rights of everyday citizens. there's that, and there is also that human rights record in the country. you no doubt heard the controversy over whether or not people can wear armbands there. gay rights basically nonexistent in that country, more or less outlawed. to be gay, you cannot be gay in qatar legally, and that is a real problem for a lot of the athletes competing there and a lot of the fence there. our friend grant wall, a reporter who does terrific report in soccer, he was detained is a day for a time because he wore a rainbow t-shirt to one of the stadiums. yes, they're not serving

alcohol, even though they said they would. they're not serving alcohols at or around the games, either. that seems minor compared to the human rights and gay rights issues. all of that because of fifa, the world governing body for soccer, decided to have the world cup. then there is the suckered. a lot of people, by the way, don't think you can get beyond the first part to even think about the soccer, but for those that want to pay attention to the soccer, it is one of the great sporting events every four years in the world. this time around, there are 32 teams, 32 countries have teams there. they are grouped into it separate groups. we are now in what is called the group stage. what happens is each team and each group plays every other team, and the top two teams advance to the next stage so right now, it's a round robin. you get three points for winning, 1.4 tying a game, zero points for losing. again, the top two teams

advance which, by the way, is what today, it was so extraordinary that argentina, which is considered one of the best teams in the world, not to mention the best team in group c here, that argentina lost to saudi arabia, one of the biggest upsets in world cup history. it also there is this group into disarray. a lot of people assumed it would be argentina and maybe mexico or poland advance into the next stage. now that is very much in jeopardy. also, by the way, it has to do what happened to the united states. you can see the u.s. right here tying whales yesterday. why is that a problem? well, because everyone thinks england is the best team in the group. unless the usa beats wales, no one thinks, or a lot of people did not think it will have the points to go on to the next stage. we will see. we just don't know yet. that's why they play the games. this by the way is the u.s. team. this picture was taken before the game against wales. enough of them are smiling here. i'm not sure they would have

been smiling after the game because of the 11 tie, largely a disappointment for them. you can see the next games for the u.s. team, the big one is friday. at 2 pm against england, one of the best teams in the world. i will say, the united states be england in the revolution, so there is history of beating england at stuff. maybe that will be repeated here, but most people don't expect the u.s. to win this game. that would make the game against iran an absolute must win if the u.s. has any chance of advancing to the next round. for soccer fans, like me, we have been waiting for this for eight years. the u.s. did not qualify for the world cup four years ago, so for eight years, we had been waiting for this, and now we basically have two games by monday at 2 pm, we will know whether our dreams have come true or whether or not they are simply shuttered. alison? >> back with me, or louis, a

franken and suddenly, john berman, how did you get yourself us? >> fleet of foot. >> that was great, john. you made us all smarter. it is not just a sports lesson, it was a history lesson, which i appreciate. you did not answer the most important question. which player was shakur's boyfriend? >> piqué, who played for spain, but he is not on the team this time. >> then i am not interested in any of this. >> i am sorry about that. catherine zeta jones is welsh. wells is confusing to a lot of people, because it's part of the uk, but a place as its own in the world cup. i often tell people to understand wells, catherine's it to jones. >> a fondness would wrapped attention? >> no, it's a great sport. it is. it's a very popular sport in the world. i played soccer in high school. >> you should like it then? >> i should.

we were terrible. i graduated i school in 1969. we did not know how to play high school in 1969 in america. >> how did you play it? >> i was a full back, in the fence. i kicked it as far as i could, every time. i just kicked it. >> look where you are now. >> look where i am now. >> earl, forgetting the sports aspect of this for a moment, in terms of controversies, has it been worth it to have it in qatar? >> i think so, from an educational standpoint. listen, you come to appreciate your freedoms when you see other people who don't have them. when you find out layer after layer, that there is no freedom of speech, if you criticize the government, you could be imprisoned. there's no freedom of religion. you're not allowed to practice your religion except the designated carrier in qatar. you are not allowed to come in with alcohol or pork. you can bring into the country. it's a pretty rough place, a

pretty old school, if you want to call it the or premodern, frankly, as far as the sharia law, the enormous restrictions. >> futuristic shuns we see play out here. >> conversion therapy, floggings, it's a pretty brutal system to somebody who is familiar with the freedoms that we take for granted in this country. for that reason alone, it's really interesting to see how other people are living. does that mean we should have not gone there to play? does it mean that people should shonda nation? we start to see the other countries out there that have these kind of restrictions. it makes me realize that the freedoms we take for granted are really, really important. >> leave it to earl to give us the severe lying on all this. i appreciate that. it has all come to the four. we have been talking yet for a week in a way we would not have been. >> qatar spent a lot of money to get the rock up there. they wanted it to be the coming a party on the road stage. they may be getting the opposite. >> the treatment of foreign workers there, that's an

undertone story. >> it's something that current wall, our friend doing reporting, did a whole exposé on this. it's really shocking, really shocking. hundreds of thousands of workers brought in to do the work and how they are treated. >> what about the corruption? for fifa, how did it use? >> there have been all reports on this. it's the money. there were accusations of a bribery in some cases to get these rock ups. this one is in qatar four years ago. it wasn't russia. not a great record when it comes to things. >> next one in the u.s.. >> california will be vastly different. after everything was exposed, was when the u.s. was awarded. >> thank you for the lesson, really interesting. the supreme court says that the house can get donald trump's tax returns. but a time when everything is so polarized, how much faith should americans have in the supreme court?

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>> the supreme court is in the news, tonight after granting congress access to donald trump's taxes. and the court is also the subject of one of al franken's podcast episodes. so, let's talk about. al, you are talking about legitimacy of the court on your podcast with dahlia lithwick, who writes about the supreme court for slate. and what is the just a vote we're about to hear? >> i think this is a conversation about clarence thomas, after alito did the dobbs decision, it concurrence said that we should also revisit griswold, birth control, lawrence, and obergefell'd. so, same-sex marriage, privacy and sex. he didn't do, loving, i think

that's what we talk about, obviously. i think we joked about it. delia writes about the supreme court for a slate. and she's brilliant, and i always have on when you talk about the supreme court. >> okay, let's listen. >> you know, i mean, i noticed that clarence thomas said the silent part out loud. this decision opens up griswold -- it also loving versus virginia, right. >> well, this was a tiny bit of a twitter freak out, because everyone thought he was using it to get out of his own interracial marriage. and i don't think that's quite correct. >> well, she's in trouble. >> the other case -- she is in trouble. it would solve the problem. >> so and say, yeah, it's not legal, not legal. >> ginni thomas, yeah, i think he explicitly name the three cases he said that are on the

table are obergefell, which is marriage equality, lawrence v. texas, which is the same sex intimacy, the anti sodomy law in texas, and griswold, which is contraception, the right to use contraception in your marriage. he didn't mean loving. well, brett kavanaugh like rings's hand it is concurrence is, like, oh, nobody worry, nobody is coming for marriage equality, nobody is coming to reinstate the texas anti saudi laws. and of course -- >> well, -- is important. i remember him saying that in his hearings. >> i think the tell is when they say we're not coming for the next, thing you should know that they're coming. for it >> that's chilling. so, what is your conclusion about where we are with the supreme court is now? >> well, i think it's an illegitimate court. i was there when they didn't take up merrick garland. and they didn't take him up, they said, oh, it's an election year.

and he said it was a new precedent, and it wasn't. and that never happened before. and four years later, when we had coney barrett, when ruth bader ginsburg dies in late september, they write -- 20 barrett is sworn in like eight days before. >> and that's what makes it illegitimate? >> yes, that's two stolen seats. in my mind. you know, they've changed their -- they lie about it all the time. this is kind of what they do. that is what it was. mcconnell said there's already been votes cast in new hampshire. remember, he said that. >> i'm just marveling at your impression. and coney barrett, boom. remember lindsey graham saying if seat comes open in 2020, i will, we will not take up and nominee, and you can keep the tape. remember they said that? >> i remember all those

machinations. but in terms of the decisions they were making, obviously, they overturned roe v. wade. but then they do something like allow donald trump's taxes to be seen by congress. and that makes people think, okay, maybe they're not all trump appointees. >> okay, but that kind of was a no-brainer. and it's more about fulfilling this conservative fundamentalist christian kind of agenda. and that's why trump won the election in 16. they said i'm going to let the federal list society pick the justices. and that's exactly what he did. >> john? >> i'm curious what you think the fix is. for people who agree with you, when you bring this up, how would you now fix it? is it packing the? court is it term limits for the justices? do you think any of those are actually within reach? >> i mean, the term limits is

an elegant solution, i think, which is give 18-year term limits. every president gets the point to. but if you did that, that would be a slow walk to correcting the illegitimacy of the court right now. now -- and there is another way to go, which is it turns out if we can prove that alito leaked these things, his own opinions, and he leak hobby lobby, which is someone is accusing him of, maybe we could get rid of him, that would be fun. >> it's interesting that even bringing up these kinds of questions, i think, does affect the justices. they act as if they're completely removed, they don't care what any of us think, it's why they have lifetime tenure. but the reality is they do care the public thinks. they don't want to be seen as a bunch of partisan hacks. >> that's, right coney barrett went to mcconnell center to make the speech about how they're not partisan. >> that's right. >> i democrats have gotten the mcconnell center as, well what joe biden.

>> but why go to the mcconnell center when your making the point that were not partisan? when he seated her nine days before the election and on the principle you cannot have -- you can't have a nominating here for garland -- >> the double standard was glaring. but to your point, that he does affect them and that they then ring themselves. they don't want to be c that way. do they self police? >> people should speak out. if you want to go in march. you want to get on television and say you're illegitimate. i think people should absolutely do. that >> when can i do that? >> [laughter] >> they have to know where their limits are. and republicans, watching what they do, and things like some questions that even raised about ginni thomas, justice thomas's wife, and her involvement in politics, and what she might have done in and around january 6th. those are perfectly legitimate questions. if they want to play this aggressive kind of conservative

legal politics, they should expect some pushback. >> they should stop doing their jobs and secret. they ship a cameras, maybe, in the supreme court, so the american people can see what is going on. and i make up their own minds about what is happening. >> that's a good idea. john, you knew the solution. you are just baiting everyone. you already had a solution suggested. gentlemen, thank you very much for all of that. there is big development and a story that we brought you last week. three employees of the sheriff's office in camden county, georgia have been arrested in connection to the beating of a detainee while in custody. we will explain the latest for you next. so no hiding under your pillow. or opting for the couch. your best sleep. all night.t. every night. for a lilimited time, save up to $500 on select tempur-pedic® adjustable mattress sets.

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