former president donald trump suffering two major legal blows tonight, a federal appeals court stopping the special master review of documents that were seized at his mar-a-lago resort, this coming as federal judges orders trump's former white house lawyer and his deputy to give additional testimony at the criminal grand jury investigating the efforts to overturn the 2020 election, plus there are new developments tonight in the investigation into the stabbing deaths of four university of idaho students. coming up, you'll hear what police are saying about who else may have lived in the house where the students were found. i want to bring in former obama white house senior director huck, also former national republican senatorial committee aide leon donovan and former national security leon musk. first the significance of the

judges saying actually you're not going to be treated in a specifically special way because you're a former president, you can't help but think about the idea of no one being above the law. maybe it's a little more true tonight, the idea of the indictment rule not being able to indict a sitting president. it's a former president now. what do you make of it politically? >> i'm not sure how much it's going to impact trump politically or legally, especially since we have merrick garland as attorney general no longer having a democratic congress. if the moves were not made when there were all these other legal questions, questions about national security documents, there were other opportunities other than continuing long investigations to hold the former president accountable, how do you hold the former president accountable now with republicans in congress? is that even necessary at this point for something other than saying he did it because it's the right thing to do? there was an opportunity for

that and to have an impact on how our country sees our democracy and it seems like the white house and attorney general have missed that window. >> do you agree? i'm just wondering yes, there's going to be a republican majority in the house. there's going to be a democratic majority in the senate, albeit a very slim margin irrespective of what will happen in georgia, but the idea of a window missed, if you're doj, has it been missed? is that door closed to you? >> no. i'd have to respectfully disagree. it may have been missed from a political context from the january 6th committee. i think they did about all they could to outline everything for the public. the public could take what they wanted from those facts. there's going to be a historical record and public report. for the justice department, their goal has to be if we choose to indict a former president, which has never been done, we have to have it all and we have to have every single i dotted and every t

crossed. you can't be concerned about how the house switched or what the senate majority is going to be. their goal has to simply be is there a crime? can we win at trial? should we do it? that's the end of it for them. >> that's the concern we should have had all along. is there a crime no matter how egregious or minimal and are we all equal before the law and that's part of the challenge we've seen as this justice department has chosen not to move forward when it's had referrals sent, when it's had the opportunity to potentially prosecute other situations of contempt. every legal resource has not actually been pursued up until this point. so why now? >> let's unpack this, what the is or what the it is. we're talking about it on the one hand the january 6th and the idea of white house counsel and the deputy having to testify many a criminal grand jury investigation january 6th-related of then there's the mar-a-lago documents. there are maybe two bites at

the proverbial apple to test this theory whether the window is closed. liam, on the issue of the mar-a- lago documents specifically, how do you see it panning out because this really becomes more and more a bit of an anvil because to me a single question has not been answered. why do you have them? why do you have them? >> i was talking to brad about this a minute ago. i think just like everything else, this is a guy who likes his trophies. he likes his momentos. he likes to show off that he was there. these are his precious letters from, you know, the great leader of north korea or what have you. this is his proof that he was there in the room. he loves to show off. that's who he is and they're his. he was the president and they're his personal items. that's why he had them. the question is why didn't he give them back when they asked nicely? i think that's the open question. >> brad, the fact that this

circuit court, this particular panel, said no, said you can't take your ball and go home and keep it there and no one can test you on it, how significant is that given that the lower court judge was doing what was really unprecedented, to have this special master review things? we're talking about documents of extraordinary we're told through reporting national security and classified levels that remember that display of photographs on the floor with the top secret, et cetera? you know this so well. what is the impact of this judicial panel saying no? >> this was the 11th circuit bringing us back to reality. judge cannon issued her ruling back in september, created this whole new area of precedent with respect to a preindictment special master just for donald trump. this was the 11th circuit with two trump-appointed judges saying enough is enough. it's all a sideshow. there never was jurisdiction or authority for judge cannon to create the special master. what is unclear is to what extent this changes the time

frame for the justice department going forward. do they have enough? we know they're still bringing people before the grand jury. are they preparing to indict or decide they don't have what they want to bring this kind of unprecedented indictment? i think we'll have to wait till after the holidays. it's a question how much did this slow them down in the processing? >> this is to your point as well, the idea what congress has to accomplish in the time that this lame duck session is going on. we're told from reporting they are going to meet tomorrow to discuss criminal referrals, possibly january 6th committee. we also know that they are hoping to get -- this is washington, d.c. talk for when i get to it -- they're aiming to get the report out december 12th. i mean my bureaucracy mind think about this thinks sure, that will be around that time. there's a lot to get done between here and december 12 and between now and, of course, january 3rd. look at it. you've got the final report due, the funding bill by the 16th, the annual pentagon

funding bill, the debt limit being raised. you've got the president signing off on the same sex marriage bill. that's just a sliver of things going on. when you think about the politics of all of this, what is the likelihood that the american people to your point have faith that it will get done? >> well, there's no universe and when i had my high level security clearance that i could even bring one document home to actually do real work and not have lost my job immediately. so the idea that we all know that these national security documents were just sitting there and it's this long protracted process has already eroded a little bit of that trust that we are all as national security professionals equal before the law. that's part of the personal perspective. on the political side, there's always the opportunity for a christmas surprise, right? that if you really want to make stop news and get everybody hopping, but the reality is

we've had those opportunities before and this is not the appetite for this justice department. they play it safe. they want everything buttoned up. that takes team and means accountability for any of these things may be well beyond the public's attention or any political consequences. >> liam, on the report do you think the january 6th committee that there is maybe not the hope or accredittability or they're not holding their breath on what's going to happen in doj, but i know i'm interested in seeing this report from the january 6th committee. do you think there's still appetite to figure out what's in it and what might not have been seen on television? >> i think that limited window is cause for urgency. there was an open question as to whether the january 6th proceedings as they stood would have an impact on the election and i think you can take away as democrats from this election everything went into making that a success relative to expectation. so they can see that as validation of their process of how they comported themselves. i think coming out with a final report in that time is the sort

of culmination of that effort. the laundry list of things congress has to get done are i think separate from that parallel process of the democratic considerations of what we can do while we have the power. everything else requires republican signoff to get funding done, to get the nbaa done, things like that. this is a separate consideration. this is firmly in the hands of house democrats. >> look, news flash, congress, just because the new congress will be sworn in it doesn't restart the clock for americans to go oh, i guess i can't ask the questions any longer. we have a new congress there. i wouldn't bet on that, washington, d.c., but we've all been wrong before about that. look, 26 million americans are on pins and needles. why? they're waiting to find out whether they'll get relief from their student debt and the supreme court says they've got to wait at least until february, more likely june. so what are borrowers supposed to do?

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there's a new legal setback for the biden administration student loan debt forgiveness plan, the supreme court today keeping a block on the president's plan announcing they will hear arguments on the case, but not till february. back with me, my guests. mark, let me begin with you here. this is pretty substantial the supreme court wants to weigh in on this matter, but they're keeping the debt relief on pause while they are anticipating the oral argument. how long could we be in limbo here? >> that is a very big unknown, but let's look at the roadmap that we've been able to

establish based off our reporting so far. first, as you mentioned, this is a program that has just been riddled with legal challenges and chapters along the way, but the goal again is for the supreme court to hear this case in february with a decision likely in june. again, we are talking about more than 20 million people that have applied for this program and it's important to stress no debt relief has been issued at this point. there have been no cancellations, at least at this point. >> that's a really important point. you don't want to have the idea people initially who were able to get on and thinking about approval were able to benefit and the rest of the people waiting in line, but if you went to the website now and tried to apply, this is what you would see. they're alerting you to the fact there is this outstanding litigation now before the supreme court. marc, what does this mean for people who are trying to plan?

people have to order their lives and finances and student loan debt is very significant for millions and millions of americans. how can people plan? what is the course correction? >> this is very tough and the simple answer is just even more uncertainty. the one thing about reporting the story, i always learn something new, including the fact that student debt is greater, that credit card debt, auto debt according to the new york federal reserve, but it obviously despite the politics whatever you feel about the policy, i mean it is a financial stress in people's lives. in fact, the national association of realtors did some research over the last few years and it shows that this type of debt gets in the way of home buying and other financial decisions. it is a burden that can haunt students well into adulthood. >> absolutely. turning to the panel here in

d.c., everyone who has ever taken out a loan or tried to get a mortgage or anything else thinks about revolving credit limits, revolving debt. your debt to income ratio and student loan debt is like top of the heap for so many people. for years, decades oftentimes and the idea that no one wants to be in the position politically to say no, i mean you should have to deal with this, although that's not true traditionally, right? because that was part of the reaction to the proposal. some said why should i have to pay for the debt you chose to get? is that part of the political conversation still to this day, do you think? >> i think there's a significant part of the population that still believes because i suffered, you should have to suffer, too. the idea i paid off my student loans, you can figure out how to do it. we forget this is a unique generational problem, that california public schools, some of the best colleges in the country, all used to be free up

until ronald reagan decided people should be paying tuition for them there. has been a 205% increase in college tuition since 1970. so generation x, millennials in their 40s now trying to buy a home stuck with gig economy work, no pension guaranteed are also saddled with student loan debt trying to fulfill a promise that this is how you advance in society of, how you get ahead and it's not the same way it worked for our parents. we are now looking for solutions to effectively follow what our elders told us and our elders are still largely the ones making the decisions of how the economic system is going to work. >> liam, those legislative solutions that she's talking about, i mean they're not yet tangible, right? the idea that president biden as part of the campaign promise tried to have this policy implemented, some in a cynical

reaction think it was just done to fulfill a promise knowing full well it would never truly manifest. others said hey, this is why prior presidents and prior congress has not actually acted this way. you can't do it. so is this like the untenable sort of limbo indefinitely because no one's going to want to try to restart it or be able to do it effectively? >> i think you have to think about the fact this wasn't done till what, september of the election year. there were two years where the president obviously had substantive political and legal doubts about whether this was the right thing to do and this is the manifestation of that in the fact it's hung up in the courts, but in terms of whether it's a solution to the problem, it certainly treats symptoms and would be real relief for millions of people, but it doesn't get to the systemic structural issues of the explosion of the costs. if anything, it might exacerbate it by it's like there's the general inflation problems. if you make things cheaper to the consumer, then the

institutions are just growing the tuition -- >> that's the magical part of how the government-backed loans work, that the government has already accounted for what's not paid back. this is the financial magic that you don't get told about when you're 18 is that high- powered institutions have ways of writing these things off and the u.s. government writes off debt all the time. this might not have an inflationary impact if it is forgiven, but it's that structural problem of if you're giving free money to institutions, all of these colleges, private and public, all they did was raise tuition rates. >> i think if you want to get republicans involved in the solution, that conversation has to be about how to fix that problem. in this populous moment i think you'll not have problems getting republicans to go after some of these institutions in a way that makes them either curb those costs or share in the solution. i think the other piece of this is as the educational attainment and political

sorting of the parties has played out, republicans are dealing with a base that is less college educated. the fairness issue informs all this. i think republicans are much toward the idea of vocational trades, of different education than the traditional liberal arts degree. so that's the other dynamic that i think there's opportunity there legislatively, but it's what makes this so difficult because -- >> there has been a strong conservative history from the 1980s reagan, nixon, reagan advisers having admitted the danger of an educated prolateriot, that there might be class divisions if there are too many people that get college education. it feeds into the base sense that it's not as necessary, but if you are a woman, if you are black, you were denied these opportunities, period, in that era. so this, a college degree, a legal degree, a medical degree to, have that representation is necessary and the only way to have done that is through

predatory student loans. >> thank you, nice to hear from all of you. this topic is probably going nowhere. we have probably till the end of the supreme court term end in june to figure out how this will really go down. also there are still more questions than answers in the brutal stabbing deaths of four idaho college students, the latest developments next. suffering from sinus congestion, especially at nigh t? try vicks sinex for instant relief that lasts up to 12 hours. vicks sinex targets congestion at the source, relieving nasal congestion and sinus pressure by reducing swelling in the sinuses. try vicks sinex.

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university of idaho students. police tell cnn there may have been a previously unknown person living in the house where the victims were found. cnn's veronica miracle has the latest. >> reporter: for the first time police tell cnn there may have been six people living at the house where four university of idaho students were killed. until now police have only released information about five of the roommates, three of the victims and two other roommates who were not harmed. a fourth victim, ethan chapin, did not live at the home. a spokesperson for the moscow police department tells cnn investigators are aware of a sixth person who could have potentially lived at the residence. that person was not at the residence on the night of the murders. an employee with the property management company for the home tells cnn that six people are listed on the lease, but they would not release the names. it remains unclear if that sixth person lived at the property at any point. we asked police if they have

found this potential sixth roommate, questioned them and cleared them as a suspect. all they could tell us is that they continue to investigate anyone who possibly has information about this case. kaylee goncalves' mother tells cnn, "kaylee had never mentioned there was a sixth roommate. if there was a sixth person on that lease, i didn't know about it," but she also had never been to the home. the goncalves family among those at the university of idaho candlelight vigil where hundreds of students came together to honor their fallen classmates. >> they shared everything. they eventually get into the same apartment together and in the end they died together in the same room in the same bed. >> reporter: we did reach out to people connected to the house and have not heard back, so we don't know if a sixth roommate really lived in this house. we just know from the leasing company there were six people on the lease. >> thank you. i want to bring in former fbi

deputy director andrew mccabe, criminologist casey jordan and forensic scientist lawrence kobalinski. just thinking about what might have transpired in that house in seeing those vigils and the parents, it's just so heartbreaking. i want to begin with you casey because we don't hear any significant or at least clear leads vocalized to the public. you're a profiler. tell me what you think this person or persons, what is your thought about who may have done this? >> well, you are correct. we are coming up this weekend, it will be the three-week anniversary. we talk a lot about getting leads and working on clues in the first 48 hours, but now that we're talking three weeks i think my theory is shifting because statistically speaking, the investigators who insist it was targeted meaning it wasn't random, it was an isolated event where the victims or

perhaps the location was the target, i mean this might fit if we're just looking at probability based on similar sorts of cases. usually you're talking about a perpetrator who knows the victims or of the victims or has been in the house before. as time goes on, they really would have had to eliminate virtually everybody. the fact that we are hearing in almost week three that there was a sixth roommate and that theories could be i don't think they're suggesting this person might be the perpetrator, but perhaps the target was the sixth roommate. all of this convolutes everything. what we know about these similar types of attacks is kind of limited and as time goes on, i'm more willing to believe that it is an outlier. it is a stranger. it is a transient perhaps, somebody who may have known the area but not necessarily known the victims. >> larry, when you think about what she had to say about the idea there's a world of possibilities. that's the sad and scariest part about this and so

unsettling for the community and the loved ones, that first 48 hours obviously critical, the crime scene itself, also very critical. tell me what you think the process of trying to get evidence and extract maybe dna from the crime scene, the ways you would go about trying to not only secure it from the intervention of other people and being contaminated, but how you get the evidence out, what would it tell you? >> this is a very frightening situation because we don't have any suspect and we don't have a murder weapon, but there's an old saying follow the evidence. i believe strongly in that. that may be the way that the police actually can turn up the name of the perpetrator here and we know that the police have collected at least 113 different items from the crime scene. those items could really multiply because one single item can have subitems like, for example, a bloody bed sheet may have multiple stains on

that sheet. so there may be literally hundreds of items that have to be dna tested. there's more than dna, by the way. there's fingerprint analysis, blood spatter pattern analysis, trace evidence analysis, but with dna if it's successfully done, you may see stains that have a single source mainly from each of the victims, but you may also see mixtures. and mixtures are very, very important because if there are unknown profiles in a mixture, that is something that needs to be followed up on. now there are many people have been in the house that are innocent that have done nothing. they have to be checked out. they're elimination specimens. so there's a lot of dna testing to eliminate those people that are not involved and to come down and finally come up with somebody whose name they can actually come up with and

recognize who did this. >> let me turn to you, andrew, because the idea of and you can imagine the process of elimination, not the most comforting to people trying to solve, but in many ways the vehicle in which you do try to investigate crimes, i wonder how this process will likely fall. you've got the vigils happening. you've got a whole community in the process of elimination with figure the out is the way go, what is the tactic you think should be taken here? >> as with any crime scene, you want the initial phase of your investigation hopefully to be driven by the recovery of evidence at the crime scene, dna evidence, fingerprints, any physical evidence you can recover from that crime scene. there's other elements of evidence you can collect in that area, in other words, cell phone tower dumps. you can triangulate between cell phone towers to develop lists of devices that were

hitting off those towers in that area at that time of day. we're talking about between i think 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning when they think the murders took place. you want to work with that evidence first. then you branch out and start talking to possible witnesses, neighborhood canvass, seeking neighbors or other buildings in the area that might have video coverage that could give you a look at a vehicle or person coming in or out of the residence or in or out of the area at large. >> frankly, the killer or killers could actually be hiding in plain sight or at the areas where people believe that they are commiserating and sharing in the pain. >> that's where the vigil last night becomes incredibly important. i hope and i would expect that the police coordinated a substantial surveillance operation to try to understand the extent of folks in that crowd. i don't want to say it's likely, but it's not uncommon for the perpetrator of an event

like this to actually show up at memorial services, at vigils. >> >> yeah. if you think back to 2017, the murder of the illinois student, christianson attended the search. there was a memorial march and search for zhang a few days after the murder took place. it's just one example of what perpetrators of these sort of violent events typically try to stay connected to the investigation in some way or form. >> finally, andrew, do you think we just don't know what's happening and that they're withholding information strategically because part of the investigation is not to tip off someone or to try to intentionally lull someone into a false sense of security or do you have concerns about the way this is being conducted? >> i have concerns. i hope that what you said is the case, that they know much more than they're sharing with

us and that the investigation's moving along swiftly. there are some signs i think that are troubling, the fact that they've so quickly turned to canvassing, just requesting tips from the public and then following down on those very many. they've said 1,000 leads they received from the public so far. you got to be really careful about asking for that sort of input because you end up chasing a lot of leads that go nowhere. if they're at that point in the investigation already where they're just looking at anytime the phone rings hoping that's the one that solves the case, that would tell you that they are really running short on substantive investigative leads. >> i hope that it is a matter of strategy and these families are able to get justice and the answers they desperately need. >> for sure. >> larry, casey, andrew, thank you so much. important to have you all on. thank you. a black british charity ceo was repeatedly asked where she was really from by a royal

household member. we have all the details in the latest scandal plaguing the royals next.

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the united states overshadowed by accusations of racism back home. a black charity executive ngozi fulani told the bbc how she attended an event at buckingham palace earlier and was asked again and again where she was from. >> i'm really from here. okay, so i can see this is going to be a bit of a challenge. she said, "what's your nationality?" and i said, "lady, i was born here. i'm british." i was thinking that would be the end of it. no. no. where are you really from? where are your people from? >> reporter: british media identified the palace official as 83-year-old lady susan hussey, the late queen's lady in waiting for more than 60 years and godmother to the prince of wales. buckingham palace responded quickly and unequivocally. the individual concern wood

like to express her profound apologies for the hurt cause and has stepped aside from her honorary role with immediate effect. william and touched down in boston on wednesday ahead of their three-day visit for the second earth shot prize awards, a prize they help set up for advances in climate science. the fiasco threatens to overshadow any focus on environmentalism. behind closed doors the royals will be devastated with the issue of racism within the monarchy has reared up yet again. speaking to oprah winfrey in 2021, the duchess of sussex has pointed to her own concerns over racism. >> concerns over how dark his skin was when he was born. >> reporter: the duchess and her husband prince harry released the trailer for their upcoming netflix docuseries thursday and the pair will

shortly receive a human rights award from the robert f. kennedy foundation for their heroic stand against structural racism within the royal family according to organizers. like william and kate's recent visit to the caribbean when they were docked by questions about the monarchy's colonial past, this royal tour has again felt the effects of history. what do the prince and princess think about all this? i think it's pretty frustrating, but they do as royals do. they keep calm, carry on, go to the engagements and are still very much focused on the big event friday night, the earth shot prize, something prince william and kate have built up to for months, if not years. >> max, thank you for your reporting. stay with us. we have more on the royals including william and kate's visit to the united states and, frankly, what it means for the monarchy. smiling, and i looked closer,

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president biden heading to boston tomorrow will meet the prince and princess of wales as another racially charged controversy is rocking buckingham palace. joining me now, cnn contributor tricia goddard, so glad to see you. when you hear about what has happened to ngozi fulani, the repeated questioning by this woman doubting really in her questioning alone that she couldn't really just have the heritage of somebody from the uk or england, but wanting to know that can't be true. we've seen this before. i know you and i have talked about this in the past. this feels like deja vu, but the persistence of it, what do

you think? >> well, it's something that many of us people of color in the uk were -- it was commonplace 25 or 30 years ago and i think our mistake has been being lulled into a false sense of security that those days were over. i mean there are some 2.5 million people of color who see themselves as british. you only have to look at our soccer teams, for instance, and the stars are like marcus retchford, no one asks him where he's really from when he scores a winning goal. it's still a hangover from those days and we have to remember i mean when we talk about institutional racism, we have to understand that the royal family, elements of the crown, that camilla may or may not wear on her head are from countries that in the past britain robbed and enslaved their people. there still is that. for people who say that's in their past. i mean my mother's maiden name

was fortune, a slave name. my great grandparents were born into servitude and what have you, so it's not that long ago. this whole conversation of where are your people from goes at one stage i don't know, they don't keep records which was to touch upon the, you know, whole thing about slavery. we don't know where we came from and yet this woman persisted. it's a difficult one to explain because it's also one of privilege. it's like i'm allowed to ask these questions because i'm a proper british person. >> you know, when you're talking, it's striking to think of the parallels of the conversations that are happening stateside obviously, the ideas of who is entitled to be an american, who is thought of as a real american, the ideas of white supremacy, the replace. theory, so many replacement theory, so many areas we are grappling with these issues and it's almost the subtly of the

ignorance that is so stunning or the attempted subtly of it because the question, she was there, i understand, for the 16 days of activism. she was there believing she was being asked about the organization she represented, the idea of trying to help to stop abuse of women and girls and then in that moment there's a kind of an abuse that's happening that she felt by being almost browbeaten into trying to say well, yeah, this is -- i guess i'm not really one of you. >> yeah. there's a class thing as well going on there. you know what is doubly frustrating is that the vast majority of our press, i've been looking through press reports. i've seen one in the guardian newspaper that gives me hope, hallelujah, because one of the things very different about the uk and u.s., our newsrooms are almost exclusively white if you take away the sports desk and i know the few black reporters there who have struggled with

this. if you look at the comments on some of these newspapers in answer to this whole reporting of this story, if you look at the slant of the reporting of this story, and it depends whether that newspaper has been successfully sued by a royal, but the comments underneath, many of the newspapers actually say the comments here have been moderated. >> interesting. >> when you say the comments have been moderated, some of them i think who by, the kkk? >> we're talking about this at a time when william and kate are in the united states of america in boston. we think about boston as a very critical time of the breaking away from england, the idea of a rejection in this nation of a monarchy. we also know that here living today, of course, is his brother and his sister-in-law, prince harry and meghan markle and the titles have changed, et cetera, but i just wonder in this quest to have a new

monarchy, this idea of trying to break away from what we're talking about, some of these connotations, the ideas and criticism, do you think that this is something that is a setback that can be attributed to them or is this part of the breaking of kind of the old guard? >> yeah. i think it's a part of the dismantling of the old guard and it's not just this. we've got to look at charles and camilla are a little biased. i've met both of them. they are trying to make steps forward, but it's a very old cumbersome monster of a vehicle, you know. they're not going to turn it around quickly. the press that the uk is making is very much a william versus harry. they love this idea of the old guard versus the new guard and who are you, team harry and meghan or team william and

kate, which is just purile, but it's click bait, isn't it, and race is always great click bait. >> unfortunately it persists as click bait and sometimes people believe that it's actually truth and we'll go down the rabbit hole and then we see the consequences, for example, as you're talking about as well. tricia goddard, so nice to talk to you, not about this, but always getting your insight is so important, thank you. >> thank you so much. thank you all for watching! our coverage continues.

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