constitutional law professor at john j college of criminal justice. cnn political analyst -- and national political reporter for the new york times. and former fbi deputy director, andrew mccabe. john, i want to start with you. last hour i said be -- talk about the historical context. what's the point. there is none. this has never happened in history. >> that's right. >> there's never been a referral of criminal referral to the justice department for former president of the united states. instead of asking for the political context, or the historical context, what about the historical significance? >> well, i think the two things are connected. first, it's not a reminder that we are in uncharted territory. even the founders didn't imagine that a president of the united states would be someone who would foment an insurrection. even the civil war degeneration did not anticipate that. here's where historical -- as we head for a long time together. since january 6th. i mean, what hangs over this isn't just the unprecedented nature. but the charge of insurrection, which itself is in the wake of the civil war. the fact that it dovetails with

the constitution's 14th amendment, section three, which are people who participate in an insurrection or given aid or comfort from holding office. which is also criminal statute says. those are the stakes. and keeping in mind, the congress that passed the 14th amendment intended for that law to be -- looking forward, and just punishing ex confederates. indicates how much history is entwined in this, even though we are beyond history. >> yeah, they wrote it. hundred years later, it's the first time it's ever been used in a former president. >> professor, they have the summary, they're gonna get the full report we are, i guess, on wednesday. and then these transcripts. the transcripts of all these interviews delivered by truck, i imagine, the department of justice. what is doj do with it? oh >> well, let's do two things. one, this is not beyond history. we have to realize, we had an interaction in this country, a coup d'état. and that was an 1898, in wilmington, north carolina. in which hundreds of people were killed, because they did not like the fact that black

men had one office there. so, there was no accountability in that case. so, history is not completely repeating itself, but it's treading on some thin ice here. i do want to stay, yes, the truckload of evidence, and just because there's referrals are given to the department of justice, doesn't mean that restricted to what's been given to them. they can go beyond these referrals and they can look at this evidence and decide there are other charges they may want to bring. >> or to be clear, they also just not look at it at all. >> they could not look at it at all. plus, we're just looking at the doj and possible criminal charges. we have a super majority on u.s. supreme court. we know it's not gonna stop whatever the verdict is. if the verdict against donald trump. he's known to be this litigator of litigators on every issue. so, what are we thinking about the u.s. supreme court? are we gonna ask justice there? with three of those people are there as nominees for appointees almost for donald trump? so, this is ongoing. when you look at the legal ramifications. >> so, the doj can or cannot,

does or does not, have to look at this referral at all. as a legal matter, it's tbd. as a political matter, -- one of the committee accomplish? >> i think the committee accomplish something definitely in the midterms, in terms of painting republicans as a kind of extremist figure. it landed across several democratic efforts that tried to paint republicans as out of step with the medium voter. the look is further ahead. the question is whether democrats have really made a case about going forward. i don't think it really clear yet. i think that when we look specifically to 2023, the question will be whether the gop primary has excised donald trump from the core of the party. that is not happened yet. so, the core question going forward, is about whether the gop is looking at january 6th, and as what the committee laid out as kind of out sized. where the party is. and that is that's not where

the party has become yet. we still have an open question about whether or not they're going to excise the party from where it is. >> let's bring in andy mccabe in this discussion. andrew, these transcripts, all of them, from the interviews that the committee did with all of these witnesses, finally at last, we will ask we haven't before, at last now, the department of justice will get its hands on them. if you are one of the investigators going through these transcripts, what would you look for? >> well, john, they have an enormous amount of work in front of them. as a general matter, you never, if you're a federal prosecutor, you never want anyone else to get the first cut at your witness. because you don't want that witnessing things under oath or on the record that you then have to deal with later. that ship has sailed. it's not one witness, it hundreds of witnesses, many of whom the department might believe or a central to the

cases they try to make. and they now have to reconcile their own interviews with those witnesses with the statements that these witnesses have made to the committee and maybe another places on the record. prior to the justice department. even sitting down with them. all of that material will be discoverable to the defendants, possibly the former president himself. in any indictments for this activity which come forward. so the doj has to know everything that's in those transcripts, they have to factor that into their own interactions with those witnesses, and in doing their interviews in trying to clean up things that might be contradictory or not clear, they have a lot of work in front of them. and then some of that might create real regal problems for them in any future prosecution. >> let me just ask, should they have already known within those transcripts though? this happened two years ago. what does it say about where the department of justice is, if there is anything to learn in those transcripts? >> there's a very good argument

to be made, john, that the doj is late to the party here. however, to be perfectly fair, then another big job on their hands. they've got 500 people convicted over 900 indictments let's call them lower level participants in the mayhem on capital on january 6th. there was a lot going on. but needless to say, they waited a long time before they started training their focus on the upper levels of this conspiracy. on those who planned it, on those who hatched it, and of course, on the president himself who would have benefited from it headed all succeeded. now they're having to pay for that time that they allowed the committee to get out in front of them, do this investigation, talk to these witnesses, people on the record, show them to the nation. they've got a really square up that delay, at this point. >> john, what surprised you the most today? >> there wasn't as much new information as i was expecting. but i think the hope hicks testimony did a lot of work for them. what really struck me was how

much it was a retiring of the bow. and that the most compelling testimony, their sheer weight of the argument they're way making, comes from republicans. former trump loyalists. condemning donald trump for what is in essence a dereliction of duty. a refusal to defend our democracy. -- it's republicans making the case against the republican caucus testimony. that's so powerful. >> today we heard from hope hicks and kellyanne conway, these are two people who could not humanly be politically closer. or personally closer. to donald trump. enter deeply loyal to him. and the committee found ways to use their words to make the case. so, one of the questions will be, to what extent was donald trump specifically responsible for what happened on january 6th? can you prove that he was responsible for what happened? and part of what the committee is suggesting is, you know what, we're gonna listen to actual insurrectionists themselves.

you can tell by what the insurrectionists said, the power that donald trump had. let's take a listen to. >> we're set here by the president of the united states. >> he personally asked to come to d.c. that day. and i thought, for everything he's done for us, if that's the only thing he's gonna ask of me, i'll do it. >> basically, you know, the president got everybody around up to head on down. to professor to make the case the it was trump that this, he's responsible, does the prominent justice, not the committee, because the mid-committee referred it. what does doj need to prove in court? >> they need to prove there's a direct connection between what donald trump was saying and his intent for them to go to congress, and stop the proceedings. and what we just heard was someone saying, yes, he got us

all riled up. but if you tell them, start the proceedings. it's almost like like donald trump is known for saying things in such a general way. that people for whom he speaking know what he wants. but they are not being told, very specifically, go do a b and c. that's my only concern i would preferred of every charge, including conspiracy. because then it doesn't have to prove the intent to do it, that he conspired to do it, he didn't have to be successful, that's what he wanted. so, because this conspiracy is not in the referral, that's fine. because that's not going to limit what the doj was going to do. but i think the witnesses are telling us that yes, they believe that's what he was saying. i just wanted more. i wanted to hear that there was some evidence that he actually said, we're gonna stop these proceedings. and that evidence is connected to the mob. but, this the referrals, and this larger suit.

this larger trump suit. it existed, really, in the last four weeks since the midterm election where, you know, people are blaming donald trump for the midterms not going as well as they should for republicans. trump having dinner with white nationals and antisemitic. trump talking about dominating the constitution. so, at these referrals into the suit of donald trump. how much more are republicans willing to tolerate? >> i think this is the difference between a political standard and a legal standard, right? >> there is not the evidence that the committee has brought forth and we know that this is the kind of work of the committee to not have a necessarily legal standard for donald trump to be proven for things like conspiracy. but there is no question that the public blamed him for kind of larger extremism and for a larger kind of drawing up the republican party to a place that was not where median voters were. that was punished in the republican party in the midterms, very clearly across the state secretary of state races, across governors races,

across racism with donald trump and worse, the kind of key republican nominees. that was broadly rejected in the midterms. and so, in the political angle, we have a very clear rejection of the way donald trump has evolved himself in the most extreme versions of kind of republican insurrection. but, at the same time, what we look forward to the republican primary. there is not a clear answer that republicans of kind of plurality of republicans blame him for that. and so that is going to be the key difference. we do have evidence that the general election, that the swing voter, that the folks who voted in the midterms have that kind of rejection of the former president, but the real question would be what the republicans are going to be there as he runs for the next campaign in 2024. >> all right friends. thank you all very much. so, we are just days away from a new republican majority in the house of representatives and some of them were named today in hearing, what role did they play? so, stay with us.

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so the january six committee made waves with criminal referrals against former president donald trump. something like that has never happened before. but they all said something else that's pretty interesting. they referred for republican members of congress to the house ethics committee. congressman kevin mccarthy, who stands to be speaker, jim jordan, and the bay and scott perry. they all refused to cooperate with subpoenas from the house committee but with an evenly split ethics committee there is little expectation the four would face any consequences. with me now, cnn political

commentator, scott jennings and ashley ellison. i may have overstated the case there, little chance that the ethics committee will do anything, actually. with an evenly split at this committee there's essentially zero chance, right that there, it is there? >> well i'm not sure that what the ethics committee will do. the committee did not make criminal referrals for them. but i think introducing their names, the justice department could still call them and questioned them about the role they played in january six. and so, while i think that the january six committee is a really important thing in highlighting members of the republican party that were still essential players and did potentially unethical things that day and that they should someone should take note. and if nothing is happening on the committee, at least it is in the record that they stated their claim that these folks were a part of this attempt to overthrow our government.

>> they got in the records. was there anything more than that? >> well, i think that probably not for the congressional side, but eventually said i guess they could be called as witnesses as part of the doj investigation. that's what the action is there any way, these referrals are interesting, but the real action is that the department of justice in if they want to talk to somebody, i reckon they're going to do that. and so these folks probably aren't off the hook for that if the doj investigators feel that their material making the case. >> scott, while i have, you since he worked for mitch mcconnell, you know him pretty well. he said something interesting today when he was asked about this. i don't have it right in front of me. but his exact response when asked about the committee hearings and the referrals was basically the entire world knows who is responsible for january six. so, how do you rate? that why did you say that way? >> i mean, he was pretty clear. and, look, he is right you

don't have to go looking too hard to figure out what happened on january the six, if you watch that they, if you follow any of, this if you see the evidence that has been brought forward, i mean one person was responsible for it. and by the way, mcconnell said how he felt about donald trump in january the 6th during his floor speech when it all happened. and, so i think it's been pretty clear about his feelings on this. he doesn't typically use the former presidents name, in fact, i can't think of a time when he adds. but, i know that he was out breached about the treatment of the members of congress, about the treatment of the capital and the treatment of the constitution that day i know he was outraged by the behavior of the former president and i know that he has been angry about it since that it happened then he's followed these proceedings very closely. >> actually, the democratic majority in the house of representative lawson looking at this, basically 16 more days, it's almost over. and so what do you as a

democrat fear that republicans, when they take control of the various committees will do now in regards specifically to the january six investigation? >> well, my biggest fear is that they do nothing and that they pretend like it didn't happen and that they -- if you have four people who were just referred to the ethics committee, and now they're in the majority, my fear is that they're going to go with rain in an unethical way. now, prove me wrong, i am happy to be. wrong, but my greatest fear is that rather than republicans did not have this wave as everyone predicted, people were very clear that they didn't want this divisive anti-democratic governing style. and my fear is that, instead of joining people six gender and compromising on working with democrats to improve the quality of life for americans, they will play political gains and try-for-tat and do oversight hearings on things

that the american people really don't care about. there are some things that should be investigated. but, hunter biden's laptop is not one of them. and i fear that they could continue to do that so that there would be red meat for their base. >> so, scott, it was last time -- i can't remember, but after georgia, after the runoff in georgia, you declared that georgia may be remembered, basically as the moment that defeated donald trump, the broke donald trump once and for all. so, i guess what i'm wondering is the criminal referrals today, is he more broken? because of what happened today. >> i think it gets more broken every day, since the midterms when it became clear that anybody affiliated with him got punished by the voters, he had a terrible month after that. then we lost georgia runoff when i tweeted that because it was obvious that georgia spilled, rejecting donald trump. he also looked at the investigation note in georgia, and he's not down with them

there in atlanta, that's the one place where you actually have donald trump's voice on tape. asking the secretary of state to find 11,000 votes and then you throw of what happened today, on you throw the fact that he called the constitution to be suspended, you throw the dinner with the white nationalists. i mean, it's been a horrific set of weeks for donald trump and it got worse today and it will get even worse i suspect when the department of justice decides to indict him if that's what they decide to do. it certainly feels like this. with the direction they're headed. and so, i ask everybody, this one's the last day that donald trump had an american politics? i mean can anyone remember the last good day? it might have been the day he got over covid. maybe it was the third debate against biden, which he won. but, every day since that moment, his political life has gotten worse, worse and worse. it got terrible today. and it doesn't look like there's much some light on the horizon. >> all right friends. stick around, much more to

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major questions tonight, about a newly elected republican congressman, and the reporting he suggests, later, perhaps really just made up parts of his resume. george santos helped the republicans gain control of the house by flipping a democratic seat on long island. his, bio on the national republican congressional

committee website says, he attended brooke college and nyu where he got degrees in finance and economics. now, cnn reached out to both schools and neither has a record of anyone with his name or birthday ever attending. it also says santos has worked for companies such as city group and goldman sachs. but both companies told cnn, they have no record of his employment. and, there is more, an archive version of his campaign website from april says, quote, george founded and ran a nonprofit called friends of pets united from 2013 to 2018, which is able to effectively rescue 2400 dogs and 280 cuts. but, that organization doesn't seem to exist on the irs searchable database or unregistered charities in new york state in florida. now, the new york times is first to report these inconsistencies, and just a remarkable story. cnn has reached out to sentence for comment, but, his attorney tells cnn, in a statement at the time was attempting to smear the congressman elect

with defamatory allegations. it is worth noting, in the response from the attorney, there is no direct reputation of any of the actual allegations. and so far as i read. it so, back with us, john avlon, scott jennings and ashley allison. john, i just have to, quote i guess, heat jackson here -- my goodness! >> well, we want full blown only, this is one or two items on the campaign resume that are out of whack. there seems to be everything. i, mean the times even went to where he supposedly registered, vote i will say this hasn't been picked up by some local reporters on a much lower level. but, the race, i don't think it was taken seriously. and, these allegations never really served us for the questions about the inflation of his income on things like that in the short period of time. but, this seems to be a wholesale candidate who is now a congressman elect. that it is all, in about the whole of law. now, it's incumbent to come forward to the elect and say, where the truth.

this, but it appears to me that the truth is nowhere. >> i mean, it's pretty jaw-dropping, actually, i had to, say the reaction from a lot of political operatives out there in the world was how was this mist in the campaign? >> how is it missed from the republican party? and also, the opponent where was the research to say none of this actually holds up. especially in such election that we knew was potentially going to be so close. look, i don't know this guy and it seems like someone i don't want to ever know because he doesn't tell the truth. but, if all of this actually does pan out and everything he says that he potentially had on his resume was false, i think he should step down i don't think that he should be serving the people of that district or in our congress. now, i know folks will say, oh, it's a democrat, he's a republican, i'm gonna tell you if there's a democrat out there and lying like that. i don't want to representing my

party either. this is just totally unacceptable, and it should've been caught earlier. and, the voters, republican and democrat deserve better than this. >> scott jennings, how can we expect kevin mccarthy and the leaders of the house republican party to come forward with the statement, a, declaring what they're going to do with this freshly elected republican congressman? >> yes, they're probably looking into it right now, trying to figure out what to do. i'm surprised to hear ashli say that people should and fabricate things about their lives. i mean, goodness gracious, the president of the united states fabricates the whole flawed -- dozens of episodes literally never happened in this life. now, that doesn't make it okay, and it doesn't make it okay for this congressman to have clearly you know, invented an entire bio for himself. so, i don't know what they can do, i'm not sure if this is an ethics committee mattered that they should look into or not, it strikes me that there could be some issues there that they want to refer to the ethics committee. but, obviously, this is not the kind of person that you would want representing your party. but, you know, kevin mccarthy

doesn't have that thing of a margin -- so i don't know how that may play into their decision. >> what, just to be quick, the scale of what's been reported here, this is a different animal completely. then other types of things that we've seen before. and, john, a possible repercussions, here the reason i asked about kevin mccarthy is actually sort of the only recourse here is in congress at this point and with, therefore, the majority, right? >> yes, and here's where the margins to come in. i mean, this could be falsifying your financial disclosure forms is in violation of the ethics in government that. it would come to the committee if he shows us to pursue, but here's where the narrow margins matter. is he going to risk? this is somebody that seems to have been elected on fundamentally false pretenses. and, whether it's illegal, tbd. an ethical? that seems pretty clear. >> i, mean i can't even game out actually how the guy goes

to congress and every time he faces -- he may never face reported like. yes, but how can he answer questions if he didn't go to the college but he said he did? how do you handle that? >> well, if all of this is false, will probably just make up false answers when he's dust questions. but, this is i think a bigger conversation about what is actually happening in our politics. and the type of folks that we want actually running, not just so we have majorities but so that we have credible, real americans who have a diversity of experience. there are people who graduated from the college who would be more than qualified to serve as a congress person, or people who never even graduated from congress. but, i think it's a bigger conversation about the lies that are tolerated in politics right now and how it needs to come to it. >> you know, it's a fair, point and i almost feel bad. part of the reason i keep smiling and shaking my head hissing that i just can't believe the level that has been

reported here. and he's covered politics for a long time i have never seen anything quite like this. and, scott, it's a hard two years. it's almost impossible to years to imagine for this guy at this point. >> yes we'll see what i suspect there's more to come here and this was a big report from the new york times and i think that if you dug ahold this deep, there is more to learn. and, certainly, the republicans do have a responsibility to learn more about who was in the conference and what the impact of having someone like that in the conferences. and, they do have a responsibility to make referrals to the ethics committee if they feel like -- as john, said the financial disclosure could be a real thing that has to be looked into. so, i think that could the majority party and one of your own as clearly created some issues for himself. it's your responsibility to police your own congress. >> all right, thank you all so much. great to see you tonight. >> so, the plane carrying argentina's victorious world cup soccer team should be

landing in buenos aires soon. we are tracking it soon as it makes its way and it is getting close and they can expect thousands of argentinians to greet them with a heroes welcome, after the tens of thousands to greet. then the team, of course, pulled out a win after overtime they won in a shootout over france in the world cup. this was a nail-biter, this was the best world cup finals in the history of history and it's a game that team and france's team should both be proud of. one of the questions, after was all over is, would lionel messi, would it be his last game? we now know the answer to that question and it is no. he posted a photo of himself showing him on the plane holding the world cup trophy. i'm sure he's like not one of the grass at once. i'm sure he wants to keep playing as a world cup champion. who can blame? he's basically faced questions for years, years, years and years about why he's never won a world cup and now he could say i did. i am a world cup champion and i

am going to keep playing, the team has been celebrating the win, they went on to the street of qatar showing off their trophy for the world to see the world's most famous trophy. back, home argentinians, they partied into the wee hours of the morning. i do not think they have stopped partying since the end of that should. we will bring you the arrival live tonight on cnn when it happens. so, stay tuned for that. but, next, should elon musk stepped down from twitter? it's a question that he asked on twitter. he has twitters users to decide in a poll, is he looking for an out? that's next. ♪ ♪ mercedes-benz is turning electric... completely on its headad. bringing legendary design... and state-of-the-art technology... to a fully-electric suv. the all-new, all-electric eqb from mercedes-benz.

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>> elon musk is facing mounting criticism over his chaotic leadership out twitter. but he barely shrugged at all of yesterday, spending the day watching the world cup final in qatar. you can see him standing next to jared kushner, former president trump's son-in-law and former trump white house aides. i don't i hope you can trouble for saying where illinois yesterday. he was at the world cup. i will see if my twitter account gets suspended now. back at, twitter must put out a poll asking if he should step down as head of the company. the majority of those who responded said yes, he should. scott jennings and ashley

allison are back with me. and now, i am joined also by cnn media analyst sara fischer. first, on the news of this. he did a poll, elon musk has claimed in the past that he would abide by the results of the poll. the poll said he would step down, so it is going to do about it? >> i think he is waiting to figure he was going to be his successor. years of applying all day but he was going to take over from this company after elon. mask drawn, it is a good question because there are not many people right now that are close to elon musk. when he first took over for this company back in the end of october, there were a whole group of people who came in. some extra their folks, some from silicon valley who he had worked with it spacex et cetera. now, sources are telling us that some of those folks have been pushed out. there is a new slate of people who are in their. it is unclear who is going to succeed. but i do not think you are going to get word from him about that officially until he knows who that person is. >> but is he stepping down because of the poll? or did he basically gas, or no already, what the poll was

going to say and he just did this for publicity. and he was going to step down or he wants to step down anyway? >> he was deeply going to step down. he's under enormous pressure from tesla investors to pivot his focus back to that company whose stock is just thank over the past few months in response to illinois becoming the head and owner of twitter. he is told people about a month ago actually in court that was what his long-term plan was. so i think the poll is just a catch away from to start this transition. with something that he was going to do anyway. but until he announces who the person is, we are all stuck in this limbo game john, waiting to get what he's going to say and do while the pulitzer says that clearly users want him out. >> so both let the record show that scott and actually kind of gave me the island must smile right there. or it was like a political insiders smile. into why he did the poll. why such mirth form you, actually, on this?

>> oh elon. i mean i don't actually think he ever really wanted to the company, and then because of his antics he then has now inherited it and he does not know what he is doing with it. i probably will not be -- as well. we know that rachel targeting has increased on twitter. he let trump back on twitter. he is kind of spiraling in real life on the business deal which is actually investors and advertisers are pulled out. whether elon musk does not want it. and so he put this poll as though he wants democracy to thrive. and that is not really what his memo is, what we know him for. so it is a way to just back out. i also just think that twitter is now a place, that was really always bad but it's gotten so much worse under his leadership. and the funny thing when you think about tech policy and people such as corporate tech

forms being held accountable as of the most exciting person right now because of elon musk's existence is mark zuckerberg. because a lot of people have turned their eyes off of what facebook and instagram is doing. but they are both problematic platforms. but elon, sorry can't -- find me on tiktok i guess or instagram at this point. >> yeah. i think if i were elon musk i would go back to probably being the guy known for building amazing cars and huge rocks that you can take videos of getting off and landing. he was known for something, amazing now heels with drama every day. i suspect the issues going to be about who can run a business. and who averages have confidence in. that is the main issue, here. you have got to attract advertisers. and keep revenue flowing. so i hope it works out. i do think it is better when

you apart from like this that democratize information and does have enormous power for the good when you can get the information on things. it also has enormous capability of suppressing information to. so whoever the next person is has a big challenge but i think they need to do it in a less dramatic way. >> and it's got enormous powder which i think we can all agree. on especially today. i mean, there is a connection to the january 6th hearings and what happened that day. today is literally the two year anniversary for when donald trump wrote, big protests in d.c. on january six, be there. we'll be wild. that was two years ago today and also from january six he wrote see you in washington d.c.. do not miss it. information to follow. january 6th, so you in d.c.. the big protests rally in d.c. will take place at 11 a.m.. i mean, we see, sarah, the immense role this has played in the political discourse.

will it continue? >> it is absolutely going to continue and i don't think twitter is going to go away. but john, you highlighted something so important. which is that when it comes to these big algorithmic platforms, the biggest voices are the ones that have the biggest impact. donald trump at that time hit over 80 million followers and you look right now has over 120 million followers. that is why, when they tweet something salacious or damaging, it can do so much damage. because they're such a big reach. i think in the future i am worried about what twitter is. if we can't get these content moderation policies right ahead of the 2024 election, ahead of other electors around the globe, then we are in for a serious misinformation crisis. i don't know if donald trump is actually going to come up to the platform. elon musk has said that he would bring them back following the twitter poll that he did a few weeks ago. but if he does come back to twitter, and there is really loose content moderation, it would not shock me if we had some of the same problems leading up to 2024 that we had after 2020. >> i think you all so much for being with me tonight.

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