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good evening everybody, i am john berman, this is seen in tonight. here's the question, is donald trump finished? i'm not saying he is or should be but i am saying it feels like that question is part of the national discussion and ways it has never been. today the house january 6 committee issued criminal referrals for the former president. for them to be exact. four of them. >> any president who incites others in rebelling, assistant doing so or gives aid and comfort to those engaged in an insurrection, is guilty of a federal crime. >> we thought about booking historians tonight to place the criminal referrals in a historical context, but what is the point? there is no contacts, this has

never happened before. it is siu generous, a latin way of saying unique. we will discuss the actual legal teeth these referrals have, spoiler alert, none, but they might represent a marker with a lot of people think that trump is not worth the trouble anymore. on the other hand when asking the question, remember we are talking about a guy who was impeached not once but twice, that was certainly siu generous, and the men who brag about sexually assaulting women. >> when you are there, they let you do it, you can do anything, grab them by the -- >> do anything. >> siu generous. or equivocating on watching white nationalist, and toutant over his intelligence services, or injecting light or disinfectant to fight a pandemic. >> i see the disinfectant,

where it knocks it out in a minute. 1 minute, is there a way that we can do something like that. by injection inside or almost a cleaning, it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number, it would be interesting to check that. >> siu generous x3, and he survived those, maybe for trump it should be called so we we go again. if you're looking around the road right now, irreversible political death sentences seem scarce. israel just elected and indicted former prime mr., brazil picked a former president who was imprisoned a couple of years ago. the political monty python corollary to prescriptions of demise. >> bring out your dead. >> here's one. >> i'm not dead. >> what? >> here is your nine pence. >> he says is not that >> yes he is.

>> he is an >> he's very ill. >> so trump wasn't dead yet, about those times, that is the other hand, back to the first handle the situation tonight, the notion beginning to flow the donald trump really is politically finish this time, not just a criminal referrals about which we will soon discuss the legal teeth, spoiler alert non-, but also the midterm election defeats, the mar-a-lago dinner with a anti-semite and white nationalist, terminating parts of the constitution, it all adds up to someone that even republican supporters don't want to deal with anymore. especially in a world where ron desantis exists. maybe tonight donald trump is less like the guy in the card and the holy grail and more like bruce willis in the sixth sense, politically dead, but no one told him, sorry i missed the spoiler alert there. that is the question hanging over everything we will discuss tonight about what happened

today. let's dive right into joining me now, maggie haberman, senior political correspondent for the near times, s.e. cupp, and ellie. >> that was awesome. that was an awesome intro. >> if it was good, it was siu generous, to say the first time. >> it had berman written all over it. >> for maggie haberman, who wrote on twitter about an analysis that you just posted the new york times about donald trump, and the referrals today, largely symbolic but unprecedented referrals by the house committee of a former president underscore the reality that trump is facing, a diminished figure politically. >> i think that's right, i think it is diminished but i would not go so far as to say he is dead, not just all of those moments and i really did enjoy the montage thank you, i just all of those moments you played, this is a guy that has

been written off for decades, his casinos were bankrupted but he was fine, he was dismissed in the 1990s and is an entertainer, he came back over and over again. i don't think you can say he is done, especially because we don't know if ron desantis is running or he will be any good is a candidate. it comes down to two questions, does anyone actually indict donald trump, nothing is changed, from today to yesterday, but realistically, to your point there is no legal teeth and what do voters do when and if there are other actual choices. everything else is just filling in one side of the page. >> one of the points i was making is it is not just the indictments, or the referrals. >> even before the referrals there was all of this stuff, the polls and a sense even before you wrote it a few hours ago. >> i stand by that. >> politically diminished within trump world. how are they reacting to this reality or how do they perceive

the reality? >> a difference between what they will say and what they think. and what they think and what they will say to him. he is continuing to say everything is fine to a number of people which we have seen him do over and over through every single rices, that is how he handles things. there are advisors you acknowledge it is not an ideal fact set, i use the word diminished specifically, he is shrunken basically, different in 2016, and a point in the analysis i posted tonight. in 2016 voters were familiar with the idea of trump. they heard about for decades but they were not familiar with who he is and what he is like. the fact that there is a rolling drum around him at all times. and i think there is a sense of fatigue. what it adds up to depends on who he is running against and what is happening but i think he is a smaller and less powerful figure than before.>> look, you can't underestimate just how loyal a

lot of his fans but also his surrogates and supporters are, i just heard steve bannon, he's out over the ftes, he was fine with sedition and bigotry, but i'm sure you will come back around, if trump starts looking like the only candidate. or the strongest candidate. mike pence yesterday or today saying i hope he is and indicted that would be a shame, the guys supporters tried to kill you in the capital, and donald trump did nothing to stop it. you don't think you should face any consequences? there's a lot of people i think talking a little tough about donald trump, who when push comes to shove, if ron desantis doesn't get in or if he gets in and he looks soft amongst voters, will absolutely find ways to continue defending donald trump a >> one thing that i know about donald trump, and i know

because i read maggie's book, nothing energizes him like a fight, he has come back from the dead sunny times and guess what, this referral is going to be a fight, you know it's going to have it on wednesday when all the underlying materials to mount, donald trump's lawyers and perhaps some of his most loyal followers will go through that with a fine tooth comb and say aha, there is testimony given that was favorable to him, maybe by stephen miller, a lot of people who work trump sympathizers testified, it looks like the committee hid this from you in the say overlook, catherine hutchison said it slowly differently, when she had a prior lawyer, therefore her testimony is not to be believed, i think she was quite credible but watch, i've seen it happen, it could energize them. >> on the legal side of it, what is different for him tonight then when he woke up this morning? >> two things, first of all there is a book, a bible, and executive summary, all in one fairly concise place, they should have been about one

quarter of the length but one place you can look at it and say here's the story of what donald trump did. the other thing is if i can cheat a little bit, in today's will be different when we get all the documents, the doj will now have all the evidence and for better and worse they will have fax they don't know, we know the doj has been asking the committee for the stuff and have stuff that may be used to impeach some of what the committee did pick >> i agree with you, impeaching with the committee did, you will see republicans put a huge push but i don't know if it will be as effective if kevin mccarthy was not drowning in his own leadership fight, i think there's a bunch of x factors. he made a point, the one thing i will say i should've mentioned before, nothing energizes donald trump more than a fight, absolutely true, he doesn't sound as engaged as recent days when he talks about wanting to take on ron desantis, but that's the only time he really sounds engaged, in 2015 he was enjoying himself, there were a lot of people that were not enjoying his candidacy

but his slash and burn stuff was so much fun for him, is there anything that gives anyone a sense that he's enjoying it any of this, we haven't seen him in five weeks. >> it's true, that might be a calculation of ron desantis, waiting this out and not giving him exactly what he needs right away, so that for the next two years, it is the trump show all over again and ron desantis knows the media will follow that, and start paying attention if there's a fight between ron desantis and trump or someone else maybes hanging back for that reason. >> can i bring nursultan into this. >> always. >> always pick >> did she won say, i am paraphrasing paris hilton for the first and only time, there's nothing worse than being boring, the worst crime in the world, or something like that, for trump at a certain point, all of this just because background noise, if you're a republican who may believe in much are most or all the stuff he believes in, he is just

exhausting and he's not worth it anymore. >> i wrote about this in a book that he wrote, bill barr, the former attorney general said the trump in the spring of 2020 when he was trying to coach them on being a more normal candidate and he said that people are tired of the drama, and i think there is something to that, even his supporters are part of the drama, it doesn't mean that they won't be with him again, they probably will as long as he has this hold on roughly 30% of the republican party, he's in pretty good shape, even the polling that shows that there is erosion, he is definitely decelerating but he has that core group and you can't write him off. >> in the gop has not made outreach to other kinds of voters, they decided against the big tent and one in on trump, and condensed the base over the past six years, so that it is the most sort of purely trump kind of voter, so they might have a lot of trump

support, but probably not enough to win another national election. >> of course maggie got the scoop, i wrote a book about bill barr and i did get anywhere near that scoop but this is scary, this is more than just bad tweets or stupid entities, you're talking about real indictments. >> when he said in spring 2020 was at the impeachment, it wasn't as if it was the light and fluffy presidency were nothing else happened pick >> not for the last time i confused paris hilton and bill barr.>> it happens. >> you're going to stick around and we will lose you, before we do is you don't ask you, if there was anything revealed today in the hearings or the summary or the papers that have been released insofar as you have been able to go through them, was there anything new you think that would be or might be of particular concern or adds to the problems that donald trump is facing? figure i don't know as to the

problems but as to the layers that the committee wants the doj to look at. one thing is they raise the specter of interfering with witnesses and they were very vague and how they described it, they did not attach names to it, they wrote it in every particular and to some extent peculiar way given the weight of that potential claim, and the potential charge, that is one thing. this is got very little attention, a little surprised, they went out of their way to tweak ivanka trump and say she was not direct with them in her testimony. and we got to see that the videos they showed. we know what they think but they want to delay that out that they don't think she was somebody being forthcoming. >> just before we had the segment, ivanka trump,>> cayleigh: and 80 and farronato made these references do not being as forthcoming, political or legal, where's the line?>> credibility findings where we can leave to judges and juries, if you can show they had them

dead to rights, she said ask, but we know she knew it was not eggs, you're talking perjury, it doesn't sound like you are near there but we didn't really just believe them on the whole. >> that sort of my point with the potential for witnesses, i would say tampering but at least influencing, that is a really serious claim. and they made it with not a ton of specifics behind it. >> and without a criminal referral. >> that is correct. >> maggie, thank you very much. s.e. cupp and eli will stick around. waiting for, charters against a former defendant and president, what can the doj do that they could not, what can they do that the committee did not do? i will ask a member of the committee, congressman adam schiff is next.

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an historic day on capitol hill, the bipartisan general six committee referring former president trump to the justice department on four criminal charges. inciting, assisting or aiding in insurrection, obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiracy to defraud the united states and conspiracy to make false statements. joined me now is democratic congressman adam schiff of california, a member of the select committee, thank you for being with us. based on the information publicly available, which of your referrals do you think the department of justice is already the furthest along in?>> this is speculation but i have to think the issue, charges relating to the obstruction of the joint session, interference

with the joint session and conspiracy to defraud the united states, those would be i think probably top of mind for the justice department. but they also need to look at the most serious charge, the incitement of insurrection, the aid and comforting of people committing an act of rebellion or insurrection, that is certainly not a charge that is brought very often and never been brought before against a former president, nonetheless defects you are very much on point, i imagine some of the other statutes that are further along at least in their evidence gathering and assessment. >> which charge do you think has the strongest evidence?>> that is very difficult, it is pretty strong, the evidence, warranting our referring it to the justice department. there were other charges that we looked at and others that we think the justice department may have more evidence than we

do, but on those for the evidence looks to be pretty strong, and certainly if they have not begun an investigation of the former president on the basis of those charges, i think it is a sufficient basis to do so. >> the insurrection charge, would you think the strongest evidence is with that?>> he brought the mob to the capital, he understood they were armed, when he was told they would go through the metal detectors, his answer was then take them down, they are not here to hurt me, he understood they were there to potentially hurt someone, more than happy to have them march on the capital knowing they were armed, is only frustration and indignation was that he could go with them, when the violence began he made it worse by attacking his own vice president, all the people around him understood just how it was pouring gasoline on the fire and he understood it as

well, an extraordinary dereliction of duty where he sat by and did nothing while the mayhem was taking place. and afterwards telling them how much he loves them, even now talking about pardoning them, pretty powerful evidence and giving aid and comfort to those engaged in insurrection. >> you noted that the department of justice has the ability to get answers from people that you could not, so specifically which witnesses have they spoken with, could be the most important, what would you ask these people if you had the chance? >> and number of witnesses, just reading the public reports of people that appear to be going before the grand jury who refused to comment testified before us, i don't know what they are saying in the grand jury, may be they are invoking a bunch of privileges as some of the data before us. but i think the typically the republicans view it is much more of a paper tiger and the

ability to enforce subpoenas, the justice department is something different, my guess is that they are getting more answers from some witnesses that we could. and i would want to ask about conversations involving the president, what they heard and i would want to ask about other potential co-conspirators and what they were involved in your many of those conversations are not covered by any privilege, depending on who is engaging in them and who else was in the room but we were not able to get answers in the justice department can. >> pat cipollone, white house counsel, and answer questions before he was deposed by you- all but he drew lines as to what he would not answer, presumably those lines don't exist, what questions from him would you want answers to? >> he will assert, some of those lines and try to make the case for the justice department and they will have to consider are they ready to present in court, what are the chances of winning in court, how long

would it take, part of the calculus we had to entertain, almost 2 years into it, and still litigating some of the issues, sadly a tried and true tactic, to delay and delay, just delayed would be justice denied, and i think a process of a different kind of negotiation with the witnesses, the department of justice will have a lot more leverage and can move much more quickly than the congress. >> you know the bar is obviously high though not insurmountable to convict attorneys for their advice and actions, what evidence have you seen about rudy giuliani specifically that prompted the criminal referral for him?>> rudy giuliani was well aware that there was no evidence to support the bogus claims of fraud, and also aware of what the president was intending to do on january 6 in terms of the

conversation with cassie hutchinson for example. and making unsupported false claims of fraud, he saw the testimony that he gave in georgia, and so he was deeply involved in an effort to defraud a conspiracy to defraud as well as the conspiracy to make false statements and interfere with the joint session of congress. and so i think there is evidence along those lines as well. >> congressman adam schiff, we appreciate your time tonight, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. this might be the last january 6 committee hearing but managed to deliver new details. we will show you some of what we only learned today after this.

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there were new pieces of evidence released today in the final generous is committee hearing including a list of the weapons, confiscated ahead of former president trump speech ungenerous is, 269 knives or plays, 242 canisters of pepper spray, 30 batons, 18 tasers, 18 brass knuckles, 17 miscellaneous items including scissor needles, six pieces of body armor and 3 gas masks. here with me now, john miller, siemens chief law-enforcement and analyst, s.e. cupp is here with us, that is quite a list, batons, not the average thing that people carry around, this is the group of people that donald trump spoke

to them riled up and said let's march to the capital. the question is, is that illegal or as i suspect that he will ultimately argue if it gets to the court of law, just reckless, the reason it's interesting particularly today is my pants did -- mike pence did the view, the interview, he had the view that it was just reckless. >> goes back to watergate, in a legal sense, reckless is that you are disregarding what could be caused by your statements or action, reckless disregard for what could occur, criminals usually this is the intent to cause exactly what is going to happen and what happened. that boils down to what do they know and when did they know it, who was in on this, so what the committee has done is, they have 's kind of set the table, conversations between close aides the president about what to do on jenera six, who can

tie together and what amounts to this, this is his department, a criminal conspiracy versus pouring gas on the fire to see what would happen. >> is that a legal point? >> the legal test for when the speech cross the line, the first amendment is very broad, and it should be especially in the area of political speech, is intended to incite and likely to incite, likely is the stronger argument, it did, but intended, was it in his head, recklessness is not enough generally speaking under criminal law, you have to show some more specific purpose. >> can we pull up the hope picks soundbite, one thing we did, hope it -- hope hicks was interviewed after the final previous hearing that we heard from a generous is committee and the first time we saw her testimony, this pretty interesting discussion she revealed.>> i was becoming increasingly concerned that we

were damaging his legacy. >> what did the president say in response to what you just described?>> he said something along the lines of you know, nobody will count my legacy if i lose. and so that won't matter, the only thing that matters is winning. >> at all costs, win anyway you can, through all the investigations, we have learned that was clearly how trump was approaching this election. i can't get over, and this is crazy, we don't hear a lot from hope hicks, it was new in the content presentation. >> i did not even know what a voice satellite. >> she has kept quiet through the administration and post, i can't put my head inside the

space of someone who thought this was what was going to damage his legacy. like it had not already been damaged by the sexism in the bigotry and racism, anti- semitism, the two impeachments, all the bad stuff, they thought he was still intact? until the insurrection. i don't know if she thinks that way but that is clearly what she was thinking at the time. this is going to damage legacy and i somehow have the ability to stop you or make it better. that is wild to me. >> she was not alone, there were -- cabinet officials who only resigned at that point and it was the finals strahl . i asked adam schiff what i thought was a really good question. >> so schar. [ laughter ] >> about the fact that doj in front of a grand jury can get answers from people that congress could not. pat cipollone, who has

testified before the grand jury, the point before the generous is committee, you can see how limited it was, watch. >> did desmet do you know if anyone on the staff did not want people to leave the capital? bigger on the staff? >> in the white house. >> i can't think of anybody. you know. on that day who didn't want people to get out of the capital , particularly once the violence started, no. i mean, -- >> what about the president? >> yes. >> she said the staff. >> no i said in the white house. >> oh i'm sorry, i apologize. i thought you said who else on the staff. >> so he did not answer, what

about the president questionnaire. >> in front of the grand jury, would he have had to answer that question. >> what he is doing is hiding behind executive privilege, not in a derogatory way, it is a real privilege, but according to reporting by the doj team, doj has had this fight, going to a judge under the seal, it is appropriate, in the seal, in secret, they've argued over executive privilege and the judge has ruled in favor of doj, that question we just saw him not answer, he should be answering at the grand jury. so doj will get that information. and adam schiff was great about this, doj has way more power to enforce subpoenas, were used to people blowing off january 6 subpoenas and little if anything happening, that's not going to fly. >> answer to the question is a big deal, the answers that pat cipollone can provide is a big deal.

>> he went up to what is and what he six of the president, that is what you want to know. >> there is a vast difference between the way the january 6 committee went about investigating and questioning, then you will get from the fbi or federal prosecutors. >> in general they like to investigate everything they can and then interview the target, giving them the advantage of knowing all the answers they're going to get, which ones are going to be truth and which will be lies, you like to interview the targets last, in this case while it is not the way that the fbi were prosecutor would have necessarily gone about it, you have this enormous bank of what people would say if they were asked these questions and have the results of the investigation. so in a way, while it is not the way they would've done it, they are walking into the case with a lot more information than they usually start off with, not counting what they

already know. >> john miller, s.e. cupp, elie hoenig, thank you very much. a real life thief, a woman, going through the christmas presents under the tree and robert de niro's house, stay with us. her skin was better, she was more active. if i can invest in her health and be proactive, i think it's worth it. visit betterforthem.com i'm a vegas hotel. i know what you're thinking. it's cool, i don't want anything long term either. just a few nights of fun. i'm looking for someone who will let loose, dress up a little, see a show, order the steak, and the lobster. some people say i'm excessive, but who cares.

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the new york police department arrested a woman for breaking into robert de niro's home early this morning, according to a law enforcement source, who says the woman did not interact with the actor but police say she is one of the top five burglars in the precincts, john miller has been digging into the story. walk us through exactly what happened here. >> 2:45 in the morning, usually when i would be on the way home, the 19th precinct specialty anticrime unit, public safety unit, is driving

around and they see a woman who seems to be checking the doors of commercial places, and they say, is that shanice, because she's supposed be in jail, she is a known burglar, the keeper under surveillance and she goes down some stairs into kind of a townhouse and does not come out. when a follow-up and looked up the stairs they see there is a forced entry, the windows broken and the doors open and there, amidst all the presents and an ipad and other things, is one of the most prolific burglars in the precinct who has broken in, should they take her into custody, robert de niro was upstairs in his sleep and he doesn't know anything about it to the police wake him up and he hears activity and their other people at home. >> let's do with the rubber to near aspic, and he signed she knew she was breaking into his house? bigger no idea in all likelihood because she had been looking at other places looking for an opening, according to

the narrative of the police watching her and she just found down the stairs a place that wasn't easy to see from the street where she could allegedly break a window and make an entry >> so he was safe by all accounts. >> according to my sources she used a metal pipe, there is video from the security system, so de niro has another movie.>> [ laughter ] >> so the thing is, with the suspect, you say a known burglar, she has been charged correct, for doing this a lot of times? >> so she has an extensive criminal record, but she has been charged with burglary, larceny, possession of stolen property, 20 felony arrests, a dozen misdemeanor arrests, but if you look at the cadence of it, is apparently, if all those charges were true, which he does for a living, she's a professional burglar. >> a professional burglar, it

could highlight again still more questions with the bill system in your, explain. >> so under the criminal justice reform act that was passed in 2020, enacted in 2020, it says that judges could not impose bail on a number of cases, burglary was one of them and they adjusted to say certain burglaries you could but the point is even when they impose bail, it has to be in the least restrictive circumstances. for pretrial release and if they impose bail it has to be a bill that the defendant can afford. so basically the bill for somebody who can show no means other than being a burglar, is going to be very low. this is why you have this machine where the wheels turn every day, people get arrested they come out the other side and not in custody, when she was arrester -- arrested, she had two outstanding warrants for cases she had not shown up

at, arrested in december 8 for seven burglaries and december 13 for two more in queens, so she had been just arrested for multiple burglaries and let out and arrested for multiple burglaries and cotton burglary, if you get the idea that people are being churned out and not in, that's the idea. >> the change to the law, judges can impose bail for burglary but by and large have not been, is that what is being found? bigger the judges know the system pretty well but they know the intent of the law is there supposed to impose the least restrictive pretrial conditions possible. if it is bail, if the person does not have resources and documented, it has to be low bail and if it can be no bail it should be supervised release, check in with your probation officer every six weeks, if you get caught again that was bad, now three weeks. but there is a definite bump,

in 49 states of america, a judge can consider dangerousness, meaning what is the likelihood that unreleased you will commit the same crime again, you can tell by a person's pattern. new york is the only state word is not the case, judges are not allowed to consider dangerousness and threats to the public, just a few will return to court. >> again this is quite literally may be a first world problem in the area were robert in your lives but if somebody could just walk into your apartment building are complex through a basement door, that is a problem yes? bigger yes, but there is a security system, in this case the alarm was off the video was on but the door was locked but she broke in, but you know, if you look at those people who do this for a living, that's what they're doing, they're checking every night, 25% of burglars in new york city are arrested again

within 60 days of the last burglary charge which suggests there's a bunch of burglaries in between where they're not caught. >> favorite robert zero movie? >> goodfellows. >> taxi drivers the other option, are you doing for me? bigger talking to me? [ laughter ] >> thank you very much. guilty again, harvey weinstein found guilty on some charges in yet another sexual assault trial, details after this.

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new tonight, a california jury reached a verdict in a sexual assault trial of harvey weinstein, finding him guilty in three of seven counts in the

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held row low and a warm welcome to our viewers. bianca is off this week. just ahead on "cnn newsroom." >>