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hello, i'm abby phillip in washington. thank you for joining us today. it is the nightmare that just won't end. southwest airlines canceling thousands more flights with airports coast to coast already packed. more than 4,800 flights today and tomorrow no longer on the books, nearly 16,000 canceled since thursday. all week we have been meeting miserable passengers and southwest says it'll be days before this all clears up. busloads of stranded customers arriving at houston hobby airport this morning, some on the road for more than 24 hours and at chicago midway, this is the sea of luggage that is finally moving. workers are now scrambling to reunite passengers with their

bags. we'll begin with cnn's nick valencia at hartsfield jackson international airport in atlanta. another major connecting point for southwest nick, what is happening there behind you? >> reporter: yeah, hey there, abby. the line here behind me is noticeably shorter than it has been the last several days and tells the story today. there's not that many passengers in line because there have been so many cancellations. at this point since the saga started last week for southwest more than 15,000 flights have been canceled. today another cascade, more than 2,500 flight, 62% of those flights from southwest and even those who do have flights today there is a lack of confidence they're going to get to where they need to go and at this point they just want to get home. earlier i spoke to a woman named michele smith. she is a longtime southwest flier for over 20 years but after going through what she went through she's really questioning that loyalty and

then i also spoke to an 11-year-old girl who had every intention and plan of getting on her on time flight today. when she got to the gate she encountered a different set of problems. >> i've been a longtime southwest fan, 20 year, companion pass holder, travel a lot. this year has been a bad one. they have really disappointed me. >> do you have a message to the ceo if he's watching? >> fix it. fix it. he's got a lot of loyal fans and losing them left and right. >> you doing all right? you got tears in your eyes. what's going on? >> i didn't get to see pie best friend in florida. >> did they tell you you would be able to fly and then last minute they said you couldn't fly? is that what happened? >> yeah. >> reporter: so it is a mess here still. perhaps not as much of an optics of a mess as past days but very much so a headache these passengers are dealing with. just off camera i could overhear a woman on hold with the airline for more than hour finally got

through to a representative and is trying to rebook her flight. doesn't seem like she's having much success so a lot of frustration and that is boiling over to anger for some people here who just want this to be over where there seems to be no end in sight to this nightmare. abby. >> that sweet little girl. i know there is a lot of heartbreaking stories just like that, nick. thank you. southwest's ceo is apologizing as the biden administration is now saying they are going to hold the company accountable. so how and why did it get to this point and how did it get so bad? cnn's matt egan is on the case. so, matt, what have you found out about what's been going on with southwest that has gotten us to this point? >> reporter: this appears to be a case where bad luck has collided with bad planning, right, because obviously southwest cannot control the weather and this was a truly epic storm. it was a storm that also really hit chicago and denver and those are two of southwest's biggest

hubs but this is not just about mother nature. i mean, one of the most stunning things we've learned this week is that southwest relies on technology and software and scheduling systems that haven't really changed since the 1990s. that's according to the head of the southwest pilots trade union. that's pretty amazing, i mean, think about how much has changed since the 1990s, think about how hold the 1990s look if you watch and early episode of "seinfeld." it's alarming a major airline hasn't upgraded its system since then. now, the fact that other airlines have bounced back pretty quickly is also another reminder of how southwest using a point-to-point system to get its planes around the country. a lot of other airlines, they use a different system and this system that southwest uses, it seems to work pretty well when the weather is cooperating but when something goes wrong, it really goes wrong, abby. >> yeah, i think a lot of people are used to getting funneled

into those hubs and when they're on southwest you go straight to your destination but that's not great when there is a huge storm but the other thing, matt, southwest was given a ton of money, a bailout during the pandemic. do we know if any of that was used to address some of these problems, maybe that, you know, decades old system that needs to be upgraded? >> reporter: well, it's a good question because clearly one of the criticisms here is that southwest has not invested enough to update those systems and the federal government did hand out $54 billion in aid to airlines during covid to try to get them through the pandemic and southwest alone received more than $7 billion in taxpayer aid but congress stipulated that that money was really supposed to be used on payroll and benefits for employee, many of whom would have lost their jobs without federal aid. it really wasn't intended for updating i.t. systems and analysts say it's not realistic to think that's what southwest

would have done with that money but clearly the past few days has made it patently obvious that southwest does need to invest some real money here to make some significant upgrades and to reassure the flying public that something like this won't happen again. >> and what about the other airlines? what are they doing to help passengers who are stranded now because of all of this -- these problems with southwest? >> reporter: well, abby, a lot are desperate to get home and looking to try to book flights on other airlines but they've been shocked to find the price of those tickets on other airlines and seeing that sometimes over a thousand dollars, one traveler posted a screen shot of a flight between san diego and orlando, a last-minute flight costing more than $2,000 so now both united and american airlines have come out with a solution of sorts, they've said they're going to impose price caps on select routes. this appears to be a direct response to the southwest meltdown. they haven't really specified what those price caps are.

they will, of course, vary from location to location. but this would certainly come as a relief to people who are just desperate to get to wherever they've been trying to go the last few days, abby. >> all right, well, let's hope some of those folks get a little bit of good news. matt, thank you so much. my next guest has said that this is the worst disruption he has seen in his 16 years with southwest. mike santoro is the vice president of the southwest airline piles association, nearly 16,000 flights canceled in the last 7 days but the ceo, bob jordan, says he's optimistic that the company will be back on track before next week. so, mr. santoro, do you agree with that? do you think it's possible? >> i think it's possible. canceling the flights yesterday, today and tomorrow should do a pretty much system reset. get pilots in the right places and, you know, match up with

flight attendants and obviously the aircraft which is the whole problem in the first place. just not able to match us up with the aircraft. >> i know that a lot of pilots and crew were just stuck. they weren't able to even themselves get through to people at southwest. what are the biggest issues you're seeing pilots face today in the second full day of this problem for southwest? >> so today we have seen that pilots are able to get through to crew scheduling. the wait times are much better, you know, down to normal times and that's due to obviously the reduction in flights, so less pilots having to worry about where they're going, what they're doing because now they know their flight rts canceled. they don't have to do certain things so that part is better. and that's going to help alleviate the system too. >> you've blamed this outdated software we were just discussing with my colleague matt egan. that southwest had the opportunity to fix perhaps during the pandemic. and, you know, the airline

turned down that opportunity and it only took government funds for the employee payroll part of the sort of pandemic relief. do you think it was a mistake to not get government funding to do some of these critical system updates? >> reporter: no, i mean, i think the pandemic funding was solely to keep us afloat along with the other airlines otherwise we would have been bankrupt and out of business so that money was used to support payroll. there were lots of stipulations imposed by the government on how to use that money and, you know, improving i.t. infrastructure was not one of those things that we could use it on so i don't blame them for not using that money on it. however, i do think they should have in the past several years have improved the i.t. infrastructure within the scheduling software. they've known about the problem for awhile. the issue is that it's only a 1% chance when you have over 300 or

so cancellations and that's a roundabout number where things go bad and the system can't keep up with all the changes. >> before you go, i mean, a lot of frustrated southwest passengers who are super loyal to this company. what would you say to them today, those who might say, i don't know if i can ever fly on southwest again? >> i would say, remember that southwest airlines has the best and safest pilots, 737 pilots in the world and when i buy a ticket that's what i'm looking at. >> all right, mike santoro, thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks for having me. and as the winter storm is moving out, buffalo, new york, the hardest hit city is now preparing for potential flooding. as a result of what is called a rapid melt and we've just learned that officials will not lift that driving ban there until tomorrow at the earliest. as of now, the death toll in erie county stands at 34 with

the majority, unfortunately, being in buffalo. but officials say that that number will probably grow as they start to do these wellness checks and the national guard troops began their door-to-door search this morning. now, turning to the border, along the u.s. border with mexico thousands of migrants just found out that the legal limbo that they're in could drag on well into the next year. this is after the supreme court just yesterday decided to allow title 42 to remain in place indefinitely. that is the pandemic era policy that allows the federal officials to expel migrants before they have received an asylum hearing. now, conservative justice neil gorsuch sided with the court's liberal justices in opposing the policy. but the majority allowed it to stay in place for now. cnn's leyla santiago is in the texas border town of el paso and cnn white house reporter priscilla alvarez is also here with the latest.

let's start with you, leyla. what is happening on the ground where you are? >> reporter: abby, let me walk you around so you can see where i am. i'm at a church and this serves as a shelter for many of these migrants you see lining the sidewalks. these are older men, younger men, families, children, toddlers, i have seen babies out here, many of them from venezuela who will tell you they are fleeing a very bad economic situation, poverty as well as violence when you ask them why they are here, and, you know, something else that comes up repeatedly, the number 42, right, because title 42, that decision was made by the supreme court yesterday and many people here are kind of spreading the word of what that will mean and many of them seeking clarity trying to figure out exactly what that will mean. for them anyway. i want to share with you a conversation i had with a mother

of two from venezuela when i shared the news with her. watch. [ speaking non-english ] >> reporter: she says it feels bad, they were hoping for something else, a different decision. [ speaking non-english ] >> reporter: she says she just can't live in venezuela anymore because of the crime and the way of life there. >> reporter: and so uncertainty lingers. fear of what is to come in the future is very much alive here. i mean, just take a look behind me. have you families lining the building searching for donations that are dropped off randomly here to have coats and hats and just to try to stay warm. so that is how it feels for the migrants. the city on the other hand saying they too were still trying to figure out how they will move forward. they are currently preparing two

vacant schools for more migrants headed this way, abby. >> thank you for that, leyla. priscilla, on another part of this we're also learning about this new warning about domestic extremism here in the united states related to the title 42 decision. what can you tell us about that? >> reporter: that's right, abby. just days ago the department of homeland security disseminated a memo about domestic extremism with the lifting of title 42. remember that the biden administration was on track to end this authority on december 21st because of a lower court order that required them to do so and what the department of homeland security noticed was an increase on online chatter about that and targeting migrants and critical infrastructure. so some of the instances that they saw social media users say was, for example, firearms attacks, placement of land mines along migration routes and shooting electrical substations

to potentially disrupt immigration facilities. now, this underscores the concern leading up to the lifting of title 42 but also the grievances over immigration policy and also the animosity against immigrants that have often fueled extremists' acts. you can remember in 2019 the shooting in walmart. now, the department of homeland security is obviously monitoring this and the supreme court as you heard from leyla has stopped the end of title 42 for now but all of this a grave concern moving forward. >> priscilla alvarez and leyla santiago, both of you, thank you very much. still ahead for us, it is an explosive claim with serious legal implications. new transcripts from the january 6th committee alleging that former white house chief of staff mark meadows burned documents roughly a dozen times in the white house. we'll discuss. plus, the united states is now considering new restrictions for travelers coming from china as beijing rolls back a number

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former aide cassidy hutchinson has told the january 6th committee that she witnessed chief of staff mark meadows burning documents in his white house office fireplace according to newly released transcripts from the committee. let's bring in senior legal affairs correspondent paula reid. paula, it's just amazing, but what new details are you hearing from these hutchinson transcripts in addition to her bombshell testimony we've heard ourselves. >> reporter: it's amazing even after that bombshell testimony there's still more she's revealing and in the transcripts she told the committee she observed meadows burning documents a dozen times, once or twice a week between december 020 and mid-january 2021 and testified throughout the day he would put more logs on the fireplace to keep it burning throughout the day and i recall roughly a dozen times where he would throw a few more pieces of paper in it when he put more logs on the fireplace. now, it's important contextually

to note that several of these burning sessions happened shortly after meetings that he had with representative scott perry. now, he is the republican who has been linked to efforts to try to use the justice department to block the outcome of the election. and, again, a lot of questions raised about what are you burning and why? but these are not questions that the january 6th committee when able to ask former white house chief of staff mark meadows because after initial engagement with the committee he refused to sit down and answer questions. if we take a few steps back and look at the totality here, so many questions about the final days of the trump administration and handling of records, right? we have the potential mishandling of classified information down at mar-a-lago. our own reporting questions about how well they were able to comply with the presidential records act. we have reports of the former president tearing up documents and people taping them back together and here you have the burning of documents so a lot of questions and very likely

special counsel jack smith will have questions about what was going on in mark meadows' fireplace. >> we're also learning about another white house aide, johnny mcintee who talked to the committee about trump's reaction and his anger toward vice president mike pence. what did he say to the committee? >> that's exactly right. we know the former president was not pleased with his vice president when he refused to block the certification but it was interesting in the testimony to kind of watch the evolution. he said that he overheard the former president pressing his vice president to, quote, do the right thing and then when he didn't he turned fast on pence in conversations would say, effing pence, effing pence that and also in the transcripts we learned more and builds on what we already knew about the extent people were seeking pardons or the former president was trying to hand then out. he says that the former president thought about potential blanket pardons for people who participated in the january 6th riot but that idea was rejected by the white house

counsel. trump also floated the idea of blanket pardons for many of his white house staffers saying he didn't want, quote, they to be able to come after his staffers for, quote, any little thing, again, the white house counsel rejecting that idea, but saying, look, no one here has done anything wrong. unclear if the white house counsel knew what mark meadows was up to in his office with all of those fireplace logs. >> thank you so much for all of that, paula reid. now let's continue this conversation with our cnn legal analyst and former federal prosecutor jennifer rodgers. jen, thank you so much for joining us for this. this burning of documents, it's got to be something the justice department and special counsel jack smith is very much interested in. >> reporter: 100%, abby. this kind of evidence is like gold to prosecutors. first of all, of course, it could support freestanding criminal charges if they can demonstrate these were documents subject to the presidential records act, if they were inculpatory against meadows and

trump and the other plotters, it could be a destruction of evidence charge but equally important to them as they sift through the evidence for a january 6th set of charges it's consciousness of guilt evidence and the kind of thing that juries inherently understand and get, that if you do something you know is wrong, you try to cover it up so throwing documents in a fireplace is really phenomenal evidence as to the plot itself and also really great leverage for prosecutors as they think about mark meadows as a potential defendant but also a potential cooperator so there will be this kind of evidence that is important to them and certainly try to run down what actually those documents were. >> the transcripts also reveal similarly that meadows around this time was also telling staffers to keep white house meetings in a close hold, to not put them on the books, does that add to what you're describing here, this idea of a consciousness of guilt? they're trying to keep some things secret, keep them from being revealed broadly outside

of the white house? >> reporter: definitely. it's consciousness of guilt evidence and i'll say one other thing about these pieces of evidence coming out that happened not after the fact like with witnesses testifying in front of the committee but at the time trying to cover up what was happening. it really shows also that this was a sophisticated complicated plot. you know, this wasn't something that was just spur of the moment spontaneous people getting together. this was a multipronged conspiracy that was purposefully executed and along the way they knew what they were doing and they were covering that up so i think this evidence to the extent that doj can develop it in a way that's usable and demonstrates what they were actually covering up will be really, really valuable. >> are you surprised at all that some of this did not come out during the january 6th actual hearings and rather were sort of left in -- on the can youing room floor of these transcripts? >> you know, a little bit. i thought that they were trying to show us the greatest hits and in my view some of this stuff is

in that greatest hits bucket but, you know, they had a limited amount of time to grab the attention of the public. i think they did that very effectively and, you know, to the extent that they're still trying to grab the public's attention with these releases of the transcripts right before the congress turns over, they're doing a good job of it now, so it's actually probably pretty smart to hold some blockbuster evidence for the last few days so that the public is paying attention to the report itself, so, you know, you could look at it either way. one thing that's impressed me as we see the transcripts now finally is we're not really seeing exculpatory evidence, you know, you might expect there was some good stuff in there for the former president and the other conspirators, we're not really seeing that, so, you know, i think the way they've done it is pretty effective even if some of this would have also been really great to see back when they were holding their public hearings. >> and, of course, now the special counsel has the opportunity to dig much further in some of these threads, as

well. jen rogers, thank you so much for joining us on this. >> thanks, abby. and on this important headline, the chinese government is rolling back covid restrictions as cases soar and now the u.s. is saying it's considering new measures for travelers from china. we'll have more on that next. it's getting a discount on your trip, plus points for your future travelels. so you can think ababout the next trip. and the next trip and the next next trip. so wherever you go, you'll know you're getting the most out of your travels and you can keep thinking, “where next?” my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... the burning, itching. the pain. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, mo people saw 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. the majority of people saw 90% clearer skin even at 5 years.

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china's sudden rollback of its covid measures is having a major ripple effect despite soaring case rates, foreign governments are grappling with how to handle chinese passengers once the country's ban on air travel is lifted next month. the u.s. is now considering new covid measures on travelers from china and just today italy also announced it'll enforce mandatory testing. let's discuss this with cnn medical analyst dr. jonathan reiner. thanks for joining us. what do you think should be done about this situation? do you hope that there will be new requirements on travel, travelers from china and if so, what would you do? >> hi, abby. well, china's got a big problem and unfortunately it's very difficult to shield the rest of the world from china's massive surge right now. we learned early on in the pandemic that these travel

restrictions don't work. their benefits are really illusory. they give you a false sense of security, kind of like locking a screen door. this virus is all over the world and the variants that are circulating in china are already in the united states. i think the predominant variant in china right now is something called bf.7, in the united states since september. not the predominant variant but it's already here and the other thing to remember is that if you try and test passengers, a test is a snapshot of time. so if a passenger is tested a day before their flight or even the day after their flight, they are negative at that moment. that doesn't mean that they are not already infected just not testing positive. it's really impossible to block people from coming into the united states and i think these restrictions have no real public health benefit. >> are you concerned, though? you mentioned one of the variants that's been you said in

the united states already. are you concerned with what we all don't know? i think there are concerns the chinese government hasn't been forthcoming about their data, what kinds of variants they might -- that might be circulating among their population. >> well, absolutely. and we know the chinese are incredibly opaque and their numbers make no sense. when you look at the numbers coming out of certain regions in china it suggests that the growth of the pandemic in china is now explosive. in the eastern city chengdu, which is where maybe a half a million people a day are becoming infected. that's a city of about 10 million people, so from outside sources and from looking at sort of regional reports we do have the sense that the virus is just widespread throughout china. the chinese all along have been very opaque about the variants

and the degree of disease. the chinese are not reporting deaths we think unfortunately the mortality toll in china before this surge is done may reach 500,000 to 1 million people. >> but do you think that we have a handle on the variants that might be there, that could come here is what i'm wondering. >> what i'm say something we don't have a full understanding of all the variants that are circulating in china or for that matter in the united states. but what i'm also trying to say is there's no way to keep whatever is spreading from china from spreading to the united states, which is why i think what the world should be doing is urging china to put in place a measure toy vaccinate their population with more effective vaccines than they've used. they've used sort of homegrown

old technology attenuated live virus vaccines, they have shunned the predominant mrna based vaccines that have been used in other parts of the western world and the net result of that is going to be a massive loss of life in china. >> yeah, it's very troubling. dr. jonathan reiner, thank you so much for that. we should hear soon what the decision from the united states government is going to be about what they're going to do about the situation with klein. thank you. >> thanks, abby. today pope francis is asking for prayers for his predecessor. at the end of his final audience of the year, the pontiff announced that pope benedict is very sick. francis issued a statement saying, the 95-year-old's condition has worsened. in 2013 he became the first head of the roman catholic church in almost 600 years to step down citing his advanced age. benedict's legacy has also suffered recently following a

review of his handling of sex abuse cases during his time as archbishop of munich. and he's still defiant. george santos, the man who lied on his record still thinks that he should serve in congress. why are republican leaders still using -- still refusing to say anything about all of this? as easy as sending a t ll ext. yoyou. you're slinging tacos and you've got a minute between orders to handlele payroll. what do you do? step one, type 'run payroll', respond to a couple questions, and that's it... done! and they're paid tomorrow, not four days from now. if you know how to send a text, you know how to use roll. go to getroll.com/tv and get your first three months free and unlimited payroll.

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>> the idea that he would actually use the holocaust, the atrocity, the unspeakable tragedy of the holocaust as a political stunt, it is such a hateful, disrespectful act to take towards the jewish community. it really is the ultimate act of anti-semitism when you manipulate and exploit that for political gain. >> cnn's melanie zanona is following all of this on capitol hill. mel, zimmerman's comments as you just heard are shared when i democrats who have been speaking out about santos, but on the republican side, republicans have been pretty quiet. what's new today on that front? >> reporter: yeah, well, actually we have seen some new york republicans start to turn on santos which is notable. in fact, two incoming freshmen who are supposed to be in santos' freshman class and represents districts near where santos is set to represent his district in long island have come out with statements condemning santos.

ni nick lalota said there needs to be law enforcement necessary and called it a distraction and another one said the lies are hurtful and hearing from constituents concerned about them and called on santos to pursue a path of honesty, however, abby, santos continues to lie. he went on fox news last night. there was a very contend shoes interview with tulsi gabbard filling in and said he never claimed to be jewish on the campaign trail even though at cnn we obtained documents that did claim he was a proud american jew when he was on the campaign trail. listen to how he's trying to explain it. >> my heritage is jewish. i've always identified as jewish. i was raised a practicing catholic. i think i've gone through this even i've not -- not being raised a practicing jew i always said i'm jew-ish, remember, i

was raised catholic. look, i understand everybody wants to nitpick at me. i'm going to reassure this once and for all, i'm not a father said. i'm not a persona. i have an extensive career that i worked really hard to achieve. >> reporter: now, it is ultimately up to kevin mccarthy to choose whether to seat santos or whether to give him any committee assignments but so far gop leaders are remaining silent, abby. >> it's really extraordinary to see him doubling down on all of that. but on another topic, mel, also today the house banned the popular social media app tiktok from official devices. just the latest in an effort to kind of crack down on tiktok. what can you tell us about that? >> reporter: the chief administrative officer put out a memo to staff saying if you have tiktok on a house issued mobile device you need to delete it and also letting staffers know that here on out you are prohibited from downloading it on your mobile device after the cybersecurity unit determined that tiktok is a security risk

and it also comes after congress passed a spending bill that banned tiktok on all government issued devices but that only applied to the executive branch. it did not apply to congress and so now the house is taking matters into their own hands >> that's going to be a little tough for the lawmakers who are trying to reach a younger generation on tiktok. >> definitely. >> reporter: gen-zers won't be too happy. melanie, thank you. there's more bad news for the housing market. sales dropping for a sixth straight month. what does it mean for a potential for a recession next year? the pain. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, momost people saw 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. the majority of pepeople saw 90% clearer skin even at 5 years. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®...

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it was an epic night last night on the basketball court. dallas mavericks star luka doncic making nba history with the league's first ever 60, 20, 10 triple double. the 23-year-old guard racked up 60 pounds, 21 rebounds and 21 assists, and his team needed every single one of those numbers to pull off a thrilling overtime win over the new york knicks last night. the final score, 126-121. pretty incredible. now, for some less upbeat news, the u.s. housing market is not putting up numbers like luka unfortunately. according to a new report out this morning, pending home sales dropped by a monster 4% last month, marking six straight months of declines. and compared to a year ago, sales are down.

38%. cnn economics and political commentator kathlyn rampell is joining us now. catherine, this drop is worse than that. what does that tell us? >> the numbers, the dropoff was much larger than expected but the direction is what people had forecast. as interest rates goes up, it gets much more expensive to borrow to buy a house, therefore, you saw the market cooling off this was a feature, not a buzz, the market. this is why you see home sales prices falling not quickly enough to get to the volume of sales that we have seen it's in past, but they are coming down. it's just gotten a lot more expensive to buy a home. >> this is actually the second lowest reading in about 20 years. i think a lot of people, every time you talk about home prices,

they get some ptsd from the housing crash. so, how should people interpret this, you know, this mark is that we have just reached, it seems? >> i think the dynamics of the decline in housing market this time around are very different from those in the wake of the housing bubble and bust financial crisis. this time, you have the longer structural changes, you have millennials ageing into prime home buying years. the pandemic pushing people to decide they need more space. they suddenly want to own their own home, and ideally a bigger home. you had a lot of reasons by demand that went up that make total sense that are not artificially inflated by the cleansing of the need to speculate on the housing market. and on top of that, you also have, of course, very, very low interest rate which is made it easier to buy a home. now, you still have a lot of

people who want to buy houses. you still have the same structural factors like millennials wanting to buy homes having kids needing more space. but it's gotten more expensive to borrow. again, interest rates have gone up. this was by design, by the federal reserve. they're trying to cool consumer demand. and the housing market happens to be the most interest rate sensitive part of the u.s. economy. >> right. >> but that's the reason why you see the market cooling today. it's not because there was a bubble that burst. there were very real fundamentals that drove higher demand for housing. but you have this wrench being thrown into the economy by higher interest rates. >> right. it might be counterintuitive, but this is kind of what they're going for in terms of the fed raising interest rates, catherine rampell thank you for joining us. thank you for joining us here on "newsroom." i'm abby phillip, i'll see you

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