we need to move elsewhere or do these 19, do they decide, okay, they've made their point? do they come back? i don't know right now. >> they're sort of the only kevin-ish folks. >> maybe kevin. >> right. >> goes from -- >> morally kevin. >> you kind of agree with alyssa this is kind of -- there's a strategy here. >> i think there is a strategy here. i think the idea that jim jordan and others who are ideologically aligned with him did not know how this would pan out defies common sense and, you know, it's not clear to me who the alternative will be. scalise is probably the best bet because i think so much of this is personal but the irony is that kevin mccarthy has done everything that these people have asked of him over the past two years, to the point of really diminishing himself in the eyes of not only his colleagues on both sides of the aisle especially moderates on

the republican side and democrats, of course, but also i think in the eyes of the public and he's still not going to get it? >> it was actually -- the core of gaetz's speech was that mccarthy had, what did he say -- >> selling shares of himself. >> and one of the people i assume he tried to sell shares of himself to was matt gaetz. >> yes, i mean, this group owns many of those shares and yet they are -- i think -- >> it's amazing to people who buy shares or willingly take shares he's giving up attack him for that very act. >> yes, but it does speak to this sense of not fearing mccarthy, a sense of lack of respect for mccarthy as a leader and i just don't see how he comes back from this. >> i think one of the things he's done is approach this with the air of inevitability, right? he goes foo the 11th hour and said i earned it. it's owed to him.

that's not something they've taken too kindly too. watch the moderates, this sort of only kevin-ish. at some point do they say this is dragging the party through the muck and the mire and do they start to peel away. >> some of them will but i get the sense so much is choreographed. for example, scott perry who put out that strong statement last night and today, he and jim jordan have always been really very close and, you know, the fact that jordan is with mccarthy, but so many of jordan's allies are not with mccarthy, i mean this doesn't seem kosher. there's something going on here. >> but they seem to have a better choreography than the mccarthy -- >> that's the stunning part. but to axelrod's point, the midterm showed us voters were rejecting extremism, denialism, january 6th was a factor yet everyone gets that except for the house republican caucus.

kevin mccarthy who slimly even won the majority thought he was the heir apart and wouldn't have a challenge is a huge strategic miscalculation, but he made the mistake rather than catering to his moderates to his majority makers and trying to build a coalition there he has made extraction after extraction and concession to the far right who are never going to be with him. he should have called john boehner and paul ryan if he wanted to know how it would go for him. >> if you are a member of the freedom caucus, this is a brilliant strategy from the limited perspective of wanting to flex your power. so they humiliate kevin mccarthy in a historic way and then, what, steve scalise becomes the speaker but he knows how serious these guys are, that if he makes one wrong move, he will very quickly be replaced. >> i want to go to melanie zanona standing by on the hill. melanie, what are you hearing? >> reporter: as this vote has

been dragging on, the anger and frustration inside the gop is really growing. i talked to one gop lawmaker who is supports mccarthy and they're hearing from gop donors and constituents back home that the party looks, quote, stupid for not being able to elect a speaker and talked to another republican who said he's also pro-mccarthy and predicted after three or four ballots there's going to be pressure for republicans to either adjourn the proceedings and try to regroup or try to figure out some sort of plan b strategy on the floor, so even though a lot of republicans were bracing for this to go to multiple ballots, they are still in disbelief and they are just furious that all of this drama is overshadowing their new majority. i talked to a third republican who said they are embarrassing the whole team. we should form a parking lot committee and put them on it. so clearly the anger is palpable and i do expect there to be retribution for mccarthy's opponents whenever they finally settle all of this. >> all right, melanie, thanks so

much. how does -- i mean, do people leave it up to kevin mccarthy to decide, okay, enough is enough, i'm going to take my hat out or do people -- does somebody go to him? >> sooner or later there will have to be a conversation about what's good for the institution and what's good for the country. and so, again, we have this standoff where mccarthy's backers are fighting these 19 and at some point somebody will have to blink but they have to think about, you know, the institution of the congress, the house itself. because it looks -- this looks terrible. the american public, you've already heard donors calling, saying, what's going on? there's no organization obviously so at some point, i think some of the adults in the republican conference will have to say we have to end had. >> that's not the 19. >> no? that's the other group. >> that's what i'm saying. >> they'll have to go to him -- it's simple. you can't win. it's over. we're not going to vote for you another round because we can't. we're going to scalise.

>> yeah, or wherever they're going to go. >> right. >> so institution, country, both of those things should be paramount, but as you know, charlie, don't put it past a member of congress to put first and foremost their own re-election and if you're in one of these swing districts in the hudson valley or on long island, you are not going to want to send a message for too long to the american people and to the people who elected you in particular that you can't even elect a leader of your caucus let alone fulfill the promises that you ran on. >> well, the longer that kevin mccarthy stays in, the more he weakens the future speaker. because it's only going to require more concessions to flip these votes so, what, does the motion to vacate get down to two votes? that's what gaetz was asking for. what it will effectively do whoever ultimately becomes speaker will be facing votes of no confidence left and right. for the sake of the institution you would hope that his

moderates are going to him and saying, we need to get together on who the consensus candidate is. the obvious choice would be a steve scalise. >> alyssa, isn't it at this point clear that for the 19 to come along, or enough of them that they're going to have to embrace now the conditions that mccarthy negotiated. he's basically negotiated the terms of surrender and it's just a question of whether they'll going to surrender -- you know, he re-- >> he's going to negotiate an even worst rules package for the future speaker. that's the only way he's flipping votes. >> jake, 19 votes, there for jim jordan so far. back to you. >> well, i think, anderson, it's fair to say that we are on track for a very similar vote in the second ballot that we had in the first ballot. 212 for the democratic leader hakeem jeffries, 203 for the republican leader, kevin mccarthy, and total of 19

anti-mccarthy republican votes, in this case, dana bash, they are all coalescing around one candidate instead of four or five as they did in the first ballot but they haven't seemed to move the needle one way or the other, 19 anti-mccarthy. enough to deny him the speakership but not gaining the momentum they need, nor by the way is kevin mccarthy. >> no, this is a message sending vote right now. both, i should say, by the 19 so far for jim jordan and also for the 173 so now 74, 5 for kevin mccarthy. because i think that, you know, we understandably have been talking so much about the, you know, dozen plus members who are causing this chaos by saying we're not going to vote for mccarthy. but we're not focusing also on the very large number for mccarthy and it's not because mccarthy has so many people who adore him in his conference,

it's because those people for the most part, there are people who really like him and want him to be speaker but this is largely about trying to show the 19 we're not backing down to you, we're not giving in to you but will keep voting for kevin mccarthy. that's a dynamic happening on the house floor. >> let me bring in former republican congressman rodney davis. we are up here on this set, congressman, texting our contacts, republicans and i know you have even more contacts than we do, having been a former member of the house republican caucus. i am being told when i ask republican members of congress, what's going to happen now, i have no idea. that is the response. what are you hearing? >> well, i've heard that but i've also heard this is going to be a long night. that kevin mccarthy and more importantly the 85% of the republican conference who voted

for him to be speaker are digging in. they do not want to give these 19 members a win because they will have no leverage going into a brand-new majority. there's really nothing more kevin can give. i mean, kevin has given on the rules package more than what any of the 85% wanted him to give. so now it's time to see if those 85% are going to stand strong. there is absolutely no discussion right now in those ranks of a new candidate, so this is going to be a long night and i think pressure is going to begin to bill on democrats who may decide to leave the chamber if these votes continue to go which then lessens kevin mccarthy's threshold. >> very interesting. and jamie gangle? >> i'm just shaking my head for this reason. the kevin mccarthy allies may want to say to the 19, you know, we're going to just keep voting

and voting and voting, but if these 19 or even 5 of the 19 don't change their vote and we think that there are five never kevins, then it doesn't matter what the kevin mccarthy allies want and the republican party is looking dysfunctional and the business of government is not moving forward. >> so i just got one interesting text from a republican member of congress who shall remain nameless, what happens now? he wrote, we all have family up here for the swearing in. let's just say many of us told our families to dress in their second best outfits today. [ laughter ] so, in other words, they were expecting this to not happen today. >> i just -- again, we're all texting everybody trying to figure out a plan or what's the end result and nobody, nobody knows. i just got one from plugged in that it won't be scalise,

mccarthy will keep them voting all night in my view. the question is to what end? again, to what end? it's 19 right now which is what it was last time. we have a few more names to go through so essentially a status quo vote. we are in a status quo vote. in which, again, you look at that and say, okay, hakeem jeffries and kevin mccarthy, kevin mccarthy is obviously the strongest republican but as jamie noted it only takes 5 of those 19 to keep it going for days and days and days, the question is can republicans get in a room and figure out a plan z. we're past plan a and b and the answer right now is, no. >> well, and getting in a room, that is a hard thing to do, actually, at this point because as long as this is going on on the house floor you need 218 people to vacate the house floor and adjourn the house and allow them to go into a back room and cut a deal so to a certain extent we'll have to see some of this actually play out in public

if they're going to get that far. >> first impressions matter. this is the first impressions of the republican house. this is the first day of the second half of joe biden's term. this is the first day of the 2024 cycle and this is the message, not this is what we want to do for inflation, the border, immigration, this is our message about america's role in the world, this is how we're different or better than biden. that's what they wanted to do. instead doing this. >> let us underline, dana, how historic this is. this has not happened since 1923 when the then house speaker, a republican, frederick gi gillette -- kevin mccarthy said he's given the longest speech in the house of representatives and if he is going to win with the highest number of ballot votes then so be it. >> that's right. and so, look, the question is at one point does this been the

definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result? we're only on -- we're on the second ballot? >> the second ballot. [ laughter ] >> everybody already lost track. >> and there's no sense that things will change. things will only change when the people who are voting and those who feel like they have skin in the game feel that they have made their point, and nobody seems that they're there right now. >> they've made their point. hold on one second. >> call the names of the representatives-elect who did not answer the first call of the role. >> they're catching up, the people who didn't vote in the second ballot. i want to talk to manu raju who just spoke with one of the 19 rebels, congressman chip roy, republican, of texas. who voted for a colleague of his from florida on the first vote and voted for jim jordan on the

second, manu, what did he have to say. >> he's not moving off his opposition or aligning himself with a number of conservative member, hard-liners who want a number of demands to strengthen the rank and file, weaken the speakership, things that kevin mccarthy says he already has agreed to but roy making clear to me that he is almost certainly not going to be in the mccarthy camp. >> the people of the table and the rules committee or otherwise -- guarantee that will enforce the rules we just talked about. by the way, everybody in that republican congress meeting this morning said, oh, we like the rules, good job, chip, you guys worked hard for the rules and then at the end they said but if you don't vote for mccarthy, we're going to get rid of the rues. it's a game. that's the game and actually put a quote on the board that said something in the zip code of, hey, for the part of trying to put people on the committee with diverse views and kevin said that but a whole lot of people in the room didn't want that.

>> so what he's referring to is a morning meeting that occurred today in which kevin mccarthy tried to urge, to essentially arm twist these members into supporting him. that clearly backfired for people like chip roy saying essentially what they are suggesting, their threats and the like did not win them over, in fact, grew the opposition, had the opposite effect that mccarthy and his allies had wanted but mccarthy's allies are indicating they are not moving either. i just talked to congressman mike lawler, incoming congressman who told me if it goes to 50 ballots he plans to stick with kevin mccarthy for 50 ballots, he said of those conservative foes what is their end game? we'll keep voting and voting and guess what, we -- they don't have enough votes and we outweigh them so that's the question here, jake. who will blink first? right now mccarthy allies are saying they won't do it and neither will the conservatives and will there be some sort of cons consensus? at the moment no consensus candidate. kevin mccarthy, 19 votes against him right now.

he needs to keep that only to four. unclear when or if it will happen. >> we heard manu talking to congressman chip roy who seemed to suggest he's not blinking. i got a text, abby phillip, from 1 of the 203 viting for kevin mccarthy saying he'll get the vote. we're not blinking either. >> to be fair, hallmark of this group of 19 and the folks who are kind of leading this charge is that it's all about throwing a wrench in the machine but not actually solving any problems, who is the alternative? no one has really emerged who will actually have a shot of getting to 218. i think that that -- it is fair to put the onus on the never mccarthys and say who? who is the person who is going to get there? otherwise they're going to be voting all night and maybe tomorrow until next year, until someone else emerges if it's not going to be mccarthy. >> here's the challenge if you're part of the what i would refer to as the governing wing,

not necessarily moderate but people who actually want to get stuff done, right now jim jordan is sitting in that wing, the challenge is always that those people actually do want to see things happen. they want to bring deliverables home to their district. that's what their voters are demanding if you're a republican in a biden district, that's what they need to get re-elected. those people ultimately will have more of an incentive to end this, i mean, i almost swore right there to end this show, you fill in the blank that's happening on the house floor because they have political incentives that line up with ending it and finding a speaker of the house. these 19 people and this has been the problem with dealing with the freedom caucus from, you know, john boehner to paul ryan right on down to where we are today is that they do not seem to care about that piece of it. they don't care about governing. their self-interests -- you've heard narcissist being used by many of their opponents in the republican party today, they

care about as john has said appearing on right wing radio. what is their profile? the leverage and the ways that leadership used to have to get control of people like these 19 are basically gone and that means that for them, you know, sitting here and doing this 50 times, who cares? they don't have any skin in that game necessarily whereas all these people sitting with kevin mccarthy, they actually do and may get to a point where they have to say we got to make a change. >> this mccarthy ally just sent this to me. a quote from congressman guy refr refresh refreshen that you willer. if they think it will be a game of chicken they will be sadly surprised. we'll be here till fourth of july voting for mccarthy. >> that's the thing. they feel if they back down they're giving in to these 19 but the five and the nine. we'll take one vote or a

hundred. we'll keep going until we elect a speaker. fully committed to that. kevin mccarthy is not backing down from this and we should note in that tense meeting we were talking about this, mike rogers said they would remove them from their committees. >> i don't think they care. >> they don't care but it is important because part of the negotiations that they've been talking about with concessions is what the committee makeup looks like and how many members of the house freedom caucus are on certain committees. >> mccarthy said he would give them more or less what they wanted and they don't want that. >> still said no. >> some of those members have said on the record, it doesn't matter what kevin mccarthy offers us, we are not going to take it and i think to kasie's point, the underlying problem here is that there is a huge portion of the republican base that is not interested in any way, shape or form in anything that's happening in washington. the whole point is to rabble rouse, to stick it to the other side, to, you know, throw out red meat and as long as that's

the incentive structure it's really hard if you're trying to hand out some carrots when there's nothing you can offer them that will be good enough. >> this is a group who wants to burn it down. kevin offered them everything, and they said no. they don't want it. i also think we should talk about former congressman rodney davis talked about the democrats that they're going to get tired and they're going to step up. nonsense. >> oh, no, they love this. >> nonsense. >> the happiest people on the floor of the house. >> all day, all night and, you know, the only question in my mind, someone said to me, who's happier right now, nancy pelosi or liz cheney? and i think that -- >> a great question. >> it's a good question but the democrats are sitting in, you know, the best seat and this is not up to them. >> yeah. >> it's up to kevin mccarthy and i just want to say one more thing, chip roy started this process not as one of the five

never kevins. >> no, he was one of the nine kevin skeptics. >> he was trying to negotiate. he thought this could be done before christmas. that was a very angry chip roy there. i think that his position has hardened in the last 24 hours. >> anderson, one of the things that's so interesting to me as we talk about how republican leader mccarthy has acquiesced to all of the demands essentially that this group has demanded and asked for and they still don't want him, this reminds me so much of two years ago when house democrats were trying to put together and wasn't just house democrat, the house democrat and republican on the house homeland security committee were trying to put together a proposal for an independent commission half democrats, half republicans to look into what happened on january 6th and what could change. and kevin mccarthy sent a letter to nancy pelosi demanding three important changes and she acquiesced on all three and then he walked away anyway.

he didn't care. he didn't want it. this is even before it was going to be a committee. when it was going to be an independent commission and when you, you know, when you play that game, sometimes it can come back and you end up losing it. >> yeah, and that is the game that's being played with him now. charlie dent, so what, round three, how will it be different? >> i don't think it is different than round two but we're at this point of the standoff and somebody is going to have to blink and i don't think those 19 guys are going to blink. i mean these guys are -- these guys are very ideological, almost fanatical. >> any motivation for them, i mean, abby phillip, folks in d.c. were talking about what committees they get on. doesn't seem like that's a priority for a lot of them. >> no, i've always felt this group when i served they just wanted to sow chaos in the house. i thought there was annihilistic side to this group. they didn't want anything. they just, you know --

>> compromise or actually governing is dangerous whereas doing slogans and just throwing -- >> compromise means capitulation and surrender to them. that's surrender. i was part of the surrender caucus they say, i was the leader and that's how they viewed people like me who were trying to make agreements so that we could advance governance. >> alyssa? >> the problem with that is for retaliation to work you have to have the votes there so previous speakers have, you know, if somebody voted against them on the floor john boehner famously took mark meadows off his subcommittee chairmanship and ultimately had to put it back but we tallation for not supporting him. you can do that when you have the margins, kevin mccarthy doesn't have the margins, he has no, you know, levers to play there in terms of punishing dissenters so the only play left is concessions and i don't see what is there. >> another example of that famous speaker pelosi not putting kathleen rice on the judiciary committee because she doesn't vote for her.

when you don't have the speakership guaranteed to you, the threats are empty to take someone off their committee and now with this motion to vacate, you can't really impose consequences on anyone so long as five people would feel aggrieved can come together and make your life a living hell. >> pelosi had a similar margin a couple of years ago, had to assemble her votes, it wasn't a given that she would get them. she got them. knock remembers the speaker vote from two years ago because it was uneventful. it was easier for her to get them. she went and the congressman can speak to it. he may have been one of the people she spoke with but she got them by -- one by one going to members and talking to them about what they needed. what commitments they needed from her and so on, but it's easier when you don't have a

nihilistic group. to jake's point, yes, mccarthy is the one who agreed and then decided not to follow through on the january 6th commission, why? because this group and donald trump did not want him to do it. so, you know, he basically has played by their rules right up to this morning when he suddenly became, you know, steely about his resolve and he's paying a big price for. >> because they never thought he was a true believer, because he was playing both sides. they have seen him as a figure of the establishment all this time no matter what he did. i don't think it's helped that people in the establishment, people like ronna mcdaniel have gone on fox news and denounced this caucus, the five people that are now 19 as we see, that hasn't really helped. newt gingrich went on fox news and called them i think said they had psychological problems. i think mccarthy thought that

was a good strategy. it only made these folks dig in even harder and harder over these last days. this caucus seems to have grown and gotten stronger. >> melanie zanona on capitol hill. melanie, what's going on right now? >> well, a sort familiar tells me kevin mccarthy is going to take this to a third ballot. this is part of the strategy as we alluded to earlier that mccarthy was planning to pursue of not dropping out even in the face of opposition and he is hoping to grind his opponents down. now, his opponents are also saying that they're not backing down without a fight. chip roy, one of the people who voted against him told manu raju and some other reporters that he's not blinking and so this is really shaping up to be a game of chicken and it is a matter of who is going to blink first, so in this third ballot when that goes down the things we are going to be looking for is, a, do any people who of those 19 who voted against mccarthy, do any of them change their vote? do they start to peel off and start falling in line behind mccarthy or does anyone else vote against mccarthy who

previously haven't so we're looking for those vote tallies and also looking to see who those 19 people are going to vote for in the second ballot. they rallied around jim jordan who made clear he is not interested in the job. so it's a question of who they will vote for next. but still a lot of uncertainty about how this is going to go down and how many ballots it's going to take. >> yeah, want to check in with rank raju also on capitol hill. what are you hearing? >> reporter: i talked to bob good, the virginia republican. he is one of those members that is part of that hard-line bloc of conservatives who are dead set against denying kevin mccarthy the votes. he told me they plan on the third ballot to vote for jim jordan again. even though jim jordan we heard say vote for kevin mccarthy, don't vote for me, vote for kevin mccarthy, instead they're essentially ignoring it. bob good said to me that is exactly why they want jim jordan. he called them the most popular republican that's out there. he said mccarthy would -- is in a desperate effort to cling to power and said they are planning to continue to vote for jordan

and also told me i think we're going to see his numbers grow. so beyond the 19 so republicans who voted for jim jordan, how many will vote for him on the third ballot? that's going to be the big test. do they peel off? do any republicans decide to vote for jim jordan on the third ballot? that will be their push going forward. once again in the staring contest banking on jim jordaning get -- jordan getting to the speakership. mccarthy for now staying in the race. >> manu, how likely is it that jim jordan's votes could grow? why would anybody who had been for mccarthy suddenly go for jordan? >> reporter: that's really unclear here, anderson. there is a very likely possibility we're going to see the same outcome over and over again. once a member of congress votes the way he or she does vote it's very hard to see them change that vote unless some dynamic, some development happens and what exactly is that

development? really uncertain here and talking to a number of the mccarthy allies, they're saying they won't vote for someone else if mccarthy is still in the race, that is the real challenge here. that's why no one can get to 218 votes. maybe they can vote for jim jordan but not with mccarthy running and mccarthy is banking on the fact that jim jordan is supporting him to somehow change the dynamic here but the conservatives are simply not listening to jordan's push to get them to support mccarthy. they said they want jordan and will keep voting for him. >> during a break like this, i mean, what are most members of congress doing? i mean, obviously some are still on the floor, kibitzing with each other, are they out in the halls doing that? >> reporter: some are taking breaks. some are walking around here. that gives me an opportunity to interview them. that's why i talked to bob good and caught up with some of the other members. some talking -- the question is whether there's actual real horse trading that is happening on the floor. there are cloakrooms off the house floor where members can go in and have private discussions

away from the cameras perhaps some of that is happening right now. they're not in a formal recess. there's not any official meeting happening but could potentially be significant conversations happening. we'll have to see how that plays out but they're essentially in a waiting game waiting for the people who are the tellers counting the votes. they don't have a running tally like we do. they're counting member by member by member so takes a bit of time to count up how many of the 434 members who are voting today, how many of them actually voted for each individual candidate? that's when they will announce the vote and that's when we expect them to go to the third ballot so we'll see republicans potentially nominate who are posing mccarthy nominate jim jordan once again, see those conservatives voting for jim jordan once again, the question will be will jordan again make a plea to the republican conference to back mccarthy? will that be the play going forward? but mccarthy pushing ahead as they gear up for what could be a very, very long day. >> yeah, manu raju, appreciate it. back with the team here in new

york. alyssa, you talked about this strategy that had been planned out in 2015 if hillary clinton had become president. what is -- if that is the strategy that is at play here people coalesce behind jim jordan then come up with some other alternative after several votes, how would that have proceeded? i mean, who would have come up with -- was the person already determined who would be the new candidate? >> so that would be my guess is that, you know, the freedom caucus is roughly 35 to 40 members. it's grown in the recent election. jim jordan and a member of freedom caucus members are with kevin mccarthy, i want to make it clear but the vast majority of the never kevin people are freedom caucus members and know their margins, i think they know jim jordan while very popular, a fixture of cable news and right wing media can't probably get to 21 on the floor, so my sense, i think if they were exercising this strategy it's to make this go to enough votes that somebody

has to blink and then having someone else in mind but that's the million dollar question. it's hard for me to understand if you're part of the never kevin group what receive scalise offers that kevin mccarthy doesn't other than flecking your muscle and showing your power. you know, i'd keep our eye on elise stefanik who has made huge inroads with the freedom caucus type. if there's a deal to be cut there. but this is going to ultimately get to a place where we have to start talking about alternatives because congress has to function, bills have to be paid. we've got to swear in the new congress and i don't know how long mccarthy can -- >> interesting this they would focus on elise stefanik if they believe kevin mccarthy is soulless with no backbone, elise stefanik, talk about a transformational figure, she transformed herself. >> a co-chair. >> she's had a monday makeover that is just extraordinary. i mean like an extreme makeover. >> she is beloved by most of the freedom caucus members. i would put matt gaetz on the

more extreme side where i don't know if he'll be happy with anyone other than a jim jordan but when you're thinking about who these guys could coko koa c coalesce around -- >> scalise was shot in a mass shooting and is the conventional dark horse at this point. you feel like they want kevin mccarthy gone. these 19 folks and that steve scalise could run up the middle and get enough to go over the line. >> the irony of what we're witnessing here today is the fact that jim jordan was always the ringleader of these types of rebellions and now he's trained these guys well. now he ostensibly is trying to get these guys to back off and they won't. and so i mean this is the most surreal thing i think i've seen on the house floor in all the years i have ee been around because he was the qu

quintessential rebel and he can't control them. >> how much is theater. i say this, jim jordan has been a close ally of kevin mccarthy. i think they're personally friends but i wouldn't be shocked if this is oshth stated with the freedom caucus which he originally chaired and is still very much a member of. >> i'm chuckling to my thinking of the fact that a few weeks ago these are the same people mad at mitch mcconnell for not trusting them to fund the government by pushing off the omnibus appropriations bill into the 118th congress. and yet these people are saying that they can't even elect a leader of their caucus. >> by the way -- >> it speaks to the fundamentals within the party and i think it's only going to get worse when it comes to -- >> i actually think one of the things that caught my attention during this sort of, you know, constant appeal of mccarthy to get the votes was his threat to the senate to -- that he will not -- he would not convey bills of senators who supported the

omnibus budget and laughed him off. it's traditional for house leaders to rally their base by flaying the senate but that looked -- that was such an irresponsible thing to do and it just really was a measure of -- >> it was a letter signed on to by a number of freedom caucus members. >> look, mccarthy knows that mcconnell did him the biggest favor in the world by passing that. the only thing they didn't do was pass the debt ceiling. should have done that. they all knew the omnibus needed to happen. if this group can't get 218 votes will pass a spending bill? >> it's interesting you mex stefanik because byron donalds ran against her. a republican from florida, ran against her for chair, conference chair this cycle. and his theory of the case was she should be running for something higher-up instead of remaining as the number three or four as conference chair within the house gop and so you wonder first of all what happens to kevin mccarthy if he's not elected speaker? i mean, does he revert to majority leader or does he just

go away entirely and is there some play behind the scenes between scalise, elise stefanik and maybe other people. >> back to jake in d.c. >> jake. >> thanks. let's bring in lauren fox on the hill to tell us more about what's going on during this moment of chaos and confusion. >> reporter: yeah, jake, i mean democrats are starting to realize that this is going to be a very long night, in fact, preparing their members for that reality and reminding them they have to stay on the particular because if they don't have a quorum of the majority you can get into a situation where it can get easier for kevin mccarthy to win. one democrat telling me this is and she used an expletive a total expletive show basically laying out here that democrats are watching all of this unfold, they have all rallied around the same person, hakeem jeffries, they are feeling like they are unified going into the next several days no matter how long this takes for republicans to sort out.

they also feel very confident, jake, that they are selling an election message right now which is, you gave the republicans the house majority and look at what they are doing. they can't even govern, they can't even pick a house speaker. democrats i'm talking to saying they are not in any hurry to try to come in and negotiate with republicans to come up with some kind of moderate speaker, you hear some moderate republicans talking about. one democrat i'm talking to said they are not engaging in those conversations right now. it just shows you democrats feeling very confident with the mess happening on the floor. >> i'm hearing republicans talking about this wishful thinking about what house democrats will do. oh, maybe some of the republican moderates can join with democrats and elect some sort of reasonable republican speaker and i don't know one democrat who is interested in that deal. another republican saying, oh, you know, if 29 democrats go home, then kevin mccarthy wins because 203 will be the majority

of the members of the house, again, democrats aren't talking about doing that at all. let's talk about this more with republican congressman david joyce who has been supporting leader mccarthy, so, congressman joyce, how is this going to end? >> good question. your guess is as good as mine. i'm not sure how many series of votes it'll take but we'll continue to vote until kevin is the next speaker. >> there are 203 votes for him, for kevin mccarthy and we've had two ballots now and there appear to be 19 house republicans who are no mccarthy, they do not want kevin mccarthy. you need 15 of those 19, how are you going to get them? >> well first off, the second round -- the first vote you get the opportunity to vote for who they wanted and get it out of their system. the second round obviously they've all united behind jim jordan and you heard jim get up and say, i'm nominating kevin mccarthy so i don't know what the hell the game plan is but,

remember, the people bringing you this, for two months we've been dealing with the fact they put together a sheet of what they call demands, request, whatever you want, and most of those things were granted and when the push came to shove kevin asked scott perry what is it you want besides that and he couldn't answer. it's on the paper. all the things on the paper have been answered. at this point it's personal against kevin or, remember, this is the same brain trust that brought you almost two years ago january 6th in the fake electors and those type of things, remember, scott perry and this whole group and his band of merry men are the same group who thought that was a good idea too so i don't put a hell of a lot of stock into what they have to say. kevin mccarthy deserves to be the next speaker and we'll continue to vote until he becomes speaker. >> an interesting point because i've heard critics say, kevin mccarthy has been empowering this fringe group that supported

the fake electors that supported the theory that house republicans should vote against counting the votes from pennsylvania and from arizona and, in fact, two-thirds of the house republicans voted that way two years ago and i'm wondering if you think in retrospect maybe kevin should have been more on the side of traditional republicanism, traditional conservative governance and not been so acquiesce sent to this wing. >> one thing i have in my relationship with kevin is i'm point blank with him and told him last time when this came up two years ago, january 6th it was a stupid idea and needed to shut it down right away. they let it fester. look what we got so this time you're probably right, jake, they feel they're empowered or this is how they make it. this is commotion now, shutting down our republican vote of making it look like we're in chaos. that's how they live. that's why they're out in front of all these cameras. it's the stupidest idea they'll

get that they'll have 19 votes and dictate the program for the 222 of us. >> would you theoretically assuming that the 19 are as dedicated to voting the way they are as you and the 203 who support kevin mccarthy, would you at all be willing to support another consensus candidate, a steve scalise, for example? >> right now there's only kevin and even steve is behind kevin. jim jordan is behind kevin. these guys behind jim and jim is not a candidate and i said all along when they bring this crap up you can't be somebody with nobody. so far they've gotten nobody who wants to be the next speaker and, you know, they keep playing this game eventually you might end up with hakeem. >> hakeem jeffries, the democratic leader. so earlier today when asked how long he was going to stick in this fight, leader mccarthy said that he was on record and had given historically the longest speech in the history of the

house of representatives and if it comes down to it he'll be the speaker that wins on the highest number of ballots as i'm sure you know, not that you would remember, but in 1923 the election of the -- re-election of that house speaker, a republican, went to nine ballots. do you think this could go to nine ballots or beyond. >> jake, you're aging me a little going back to 19 -- >> i said you don't remember. >> i wasn't even born. the fact is it could go that long. i have people in my governance group that says if it takes 500 times we'll vote 500 times. people are committed and sick and tired of the tail trying to wag the dog which these 19 think they're going to do. >> congressman, a pleasure having you on. thanks for being here. two votes down, a third expected. maybe a fourth. abe a. will kevin mccarthy or his hard-line opponents blink? 203-19. stay with cnn to find out more ahead. we'll squeeze in this quick break. i would have hired actually talented people

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history. this has not happened. no speaker elected on the first or second ballot since december 1923. let's bring in republican congressman byron donalds of florida who voted for kevin mccarthy in the first two rounds and actually had a vote did for him as speaker in the first round from congressman chip roy. what was your reaction to having your hat thrown into the ring? >> a little surprised but honestly, grateful that a lot of members here in the chamber think of me as a leader here. i've always had to pride myself on leaning forward and, you know, speaking my mind, being clear about what my intentions are and really thankful my colleagues recognized that but at the end of the day we'll

elect a speaker. >> will you stick with kevin mccarthy on the third ballot, fourth ballot, fifth ballot, whatever it takes in i'm thinking about all that right now. the one thing that's clear is he doesn't have the votes. >> yeah. >> and so at some point as a conference we'll have to figure out who does and so i think every member is having that thought process right now. obviously we have some who are definite noes. we have some who say they will be yeses all the way to 100 ballots or 10, there's a lot of members thinking about this right now because at the end of the day, we do have a responsibility to get the house organized in order to move forward with the 118th congress. >> so are you willing to vote for congressman jim jordan who got 19 votes last time? >> jim would be a great speaker. i'm not saying anything against him. i'm open to whoever can close it deal. that's where we are. you have to close the deal. at the end of the day somebody has to get the votes and when you get the votes you can organize congress and so i think that's what i'm looking for. i think there's a lot of members in the chamber looking for the same thing. >> there are 203 individuals

including yourself who voted for kevin mccarthy for speaker in the last ballot. 19 who voted against him. how many people do you think, how many republicans do you think are like you willing to vote for neither jordan nor mccarthy nor -- just some other third candidate maybe, whoever can get to 218, how many people are just getting fed up with the . >> i don't know. i don't want to speculate on that. all these things are happening in realtime. we're having a history moment on capitol hill. this is all happening right now. the real question is what happens on this next ballot. i think for kevin mccarthy, if that no total goes up, that's going to be a bad signal for him. i think you'll see a lot of members have real conversations about who will get there. once we figure this out and republicans are going to get this done, then we're going to get on to the business of holding the administration accountable, fighting to secure our border, getting spending

under control. >> did you find jim jordan's remarks in which he was renominating kevin mccarthy for the speakership, did you find them inspiring in terms of did you listen to it and think, huh, maybe he would be a pretty good speaker? >> actually, i told jim, i was like that speech was phenomenal. i think even though he was doing it nominating kevin, it was something that a lot of members have been wanting the hear. i'm glad he stepped up and did what he did. look, at the end of the day, members want to make sure that when we have our speaker, he or her is going to lead us to be successful in the 118th. it's as simple as that. that's not a person. that's whoever can get the job done. >> congressman byron donalds, republican of florida, whose vote is apparently still up for grabs even though you've voted twice for kevin mccarthy. thank you for joining us. appreciate it. anderson. >> the question is can anybody get the job done, getting this vote done. back with the team in new york.

there's no change that's going to happen for this next vote as far as we know, is there? >> no. in fact, the question is which republican member of the house can get 218 votes. right now i'm not sure if there's anyone who can. maybe it's steve scalise, but i'm not so sure. >> an establishment guy. this is an anti-establishment revolt. >> correct. if steve scalise were the guy, will he honor the commitments mccarthy made on vacating the chair and whoever other deals have been cut? >> how do you get those people if you don't keep those commitments. >> don't you have to keep those commitments mccarthy has already made? >> you would think he would. it's a new sheriff in town. there are all kinds of agreements. i'm sure mccarthy made decisions to put certain people on certain committees, not just these house rule changes. there are all sorts of little agreements he's probably made, and side deals. that doesn't obligate the new

guy to those same deals. >> as we get into the wee hours if this keeps going on, i'm curious to see who will be the 2023 charlie dent? who on the democrats' approach, is there something we can do, come up with a consensus or coalition candidate? this hasn't happened in 100 years. we haven't had a speaker reached on the floor. i wouldn't be surprised if fitzpatrick or bacon will be approach at some point. >> in this congress, as in the last couple congresses, the idea of a compromise is such a dirty word, the idea they would compromise on this for a coalition candidate seems impossible. >> the problem is it's a suicide mission for any republicans that go along with it. they're going to face primaries. one other thing i want to note, too, the next congress will be delayed no matter who this is. the speaker of the house has about a 50-person staff, the chief fund-raiser in the house. if it's somebody outside of the

current leadership ranks of a scalise or kevin mccarthy, it's going to take time to stand up a professional functioning operation that's ready to manage the floor, fundraise for the nrcc. i don't know that jim jordan can do that tomorrow. i don't know if there's someone else who can. >> that's a good point. scalise is as prolific a fund-raiser as kevin mccarthy is. i don't buy this is an anti-establishment revolt. i understand members of the freedom caucus are casting it in those terms. matt gaetz was most animated when he was talking about how kevin mccarthy sold shares of himself. this is personal. this is kevin mccarthy having actively worked in the past to undermine these people. i'm not saying he didn't do it for good reason, but now they're in control. >> you think this is really just personal? >> i think this is deeply personal. >> one of the complaints that has been litigated in the last few days in these negotiations is his use of his pac to go after conservative members. so i'm sure that does make it

personal to some of these people, but i -- alyssa, your point about the suicide, it would be suicide for republicans to strike some sort of compromise. this, in essence, is a microcosm of the problem for the republican party and the country. the public would like them to do that, but the base will rebel. so you might get plod its from a broader lech tart for doing it, but you can't get through a republican primary. >> the house speaker vote-a-thon continues ahead. we'll have much more on the historic standoff and what may happen next. it's call coming up on "the lead." stay with us. dry skin is sensitive skin, too. and it's natural. treat it that way with aveeno® daily moisture. formulated with nourishing, prebiotic oat. it's clinically proven to moisturize dry skin for 24 hours. aveeno®

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welcome to this special edition of "the lead." i'm jake tapper. we're following the floor fight for the house speaker's gavel. republican leader kevin mccarthy becoming the first party nominee to fail on the first and it appears second ballot since 1923. the house clerk is trying to call the house to order. let's listen in. >> will the house be in order?