>> donalds. >> bonamicci? >> jeffries. >> boste? >> mccarthy. >> boman? >> jeffries. >> boil of pennsylvania? >> jeffries. >> donalds. >> brown? >> jeffries. brownly? >> jeffries. >> buchanan? >> mccarthy. >> buck?

>> buck? >> bousean? >> mccarthy. jeffries. virg >> mccarthy. >> burleson? >> mccarthy. >> bush? >> jeffries. >> calvert? >> mccarthy. >> cannic? >> mccarthy. >> carvayo? >> jeffries. carbehall? >> jeffries. >> cardennis? >> jeffries. >> carry? >> mccarthy. carter of

georgia? >> mccarthy. >> carter of louisiana? >> jeffries. >> carter of texas? >> mccarthy. >> cartwright? >> jeffries. >> cassar? >> jeffries. >> cast tin? >> jeffries. >> castore of florida? >> jeffries. >> castro of texas? >> jeffries. >> chaves?

>> mccarthy. jeffries. >> cicilline? >> jeffries. >> mccarthy. >> clark of massachusetts? >> jeffries. >> clark of new york? >> jeffries. cleaver? schell jeffries. >> kline? >> mccarthy. >> cloud? >> clyburn? >> jeffries.

>> collide? >> donalds. >> >> that was the 5th vote against mccarthy. it appears to now have been suffering a defeat. cohen? >> the latest round again. it continues. >> it continues? >> groundhog day, here we are. >> yes, it's clear, there's no concession he could make to bring these guys over. it seems he has 20 who just don't want in. in fact, they've lost ground because victoria sparks went the present. that's the equivalent of a no-vote. >> why would she had done that? just to send a message? >> i ink this so, but, if

you're kevin mccarthy, he needs people against him to vote present. not people for him. so, that in fact, lowers his number further. i suspect she's unhappy or looking for someone else. but, again, we're in a situation now, a totally unprecedented situation and at some point, somebody's got to blink. will it be the 20 or 21? >> no, it appears to be immovable, or the others. but, don't under estimate how angry the rank and file who are voting for mccarthy, how angry they are on the 20. ordinarily, you negotiate with the democrats. >> the problem with that is the 20 enjoy the spotlight. this is what the 20, they're creatures of the spotlight. >> we're learning the names of people whose names we would never know. in fact, there are republican colleagues of mine whose names i'm learning this week. and many of them are nominated, kevin mccarthy, and so, they, too, i think are

enjoying this. being in the spotlight, but, you know, what's fascinating about victoria sparks being the person to change her vote is that she's one of the more bipartisan members within the republican conference. i mean, i've served on the judiciary committee with her and we've introduced legislation together. she's one of the people on the judiciary committee who, i think, sincerely wants to work on bills with democrats. so, for her to be the person to change her vote from mccarthy to present. i think it's a really bad sign for kevin mccarthy. and also, you know, she is someone who is from a district that at least in 2020 democrats were competing in. i remember being on a zoom with ron cline and others during orientation. where he said to her he was supporting her opponent. i don't know how her district changed in this last

cycle, but, you would think she's one that would be supports kevin mccarthy staunchly. >> there was a interesting speech by lauren bowburn. she noted that former president trump was calling. his establishing in the house is not what it used to be. and i was on capital hill and in the white house for fights where a call from donald trump could move mountains within the house republican conference and that's not the case anymore. and it's fascinating because kevin mccarthy did everything to stay in trump's good graces to keep this endorsement until this day, but, the problem is he's so diminished, the endorsement doesn't matter on january 4th, 2023. >> donald trump isn't putting the full force that he could on these folks, right? he could call him and say, you've got to vote for kevin mccarthy or i'm

going to oppose you for reelection, i'm going to put up a primary candidate against you. and he's clearly not doing this. listen, i think that lauren boburn. >> does that threat hold? >> than what we've seen happen so far. i thought lauren boburn did what she needed to do and she basically laid out her case, they don't want to coronate the biggest fundraiser. giving the litany of what they've given the 20 and clearly it was not nuchlt what was interesting is that after he gave his speech, he shakes kevin mccarthy's hands and he shrugs, right? he's like "may be this will be effective, may be, or may be not. ". so that's where they are right now. >> manu raju is standing by.

what do you have? >> the longer this drags out, the more the republicans can lose looking for anotheralititive. he needs to step aside and let steve scalise to push through. he said that he will make a decision after each individual ballot to decide wether or not to move in mccarthy's direction. the one woman you mentioned, victoria sparks who changed her support from voting yes to voting present, she just told me moments ago, she voted present because she wants to give the republican conference more time to negotiation more time to have a closed door meeting with the members who are voting no. try to figure out some sort of resolution, there's a problem, they have tried do that and have not been able to come to a resolution, mccarthy has spent weeks to try and negotiate all

of their demands. some say they simply don't want mccarthy at all. the republican leadership wants to adjourn to have those private discussions. but, democrats are not giving them the vote toss adjourn and neither are the conservative members white house they need 218 vote toss adjourn. until there's a deal on something, whether a vote to adjourn or some agreement on the floor about what's next, this is going to go on and on and on, and mccarthy is signalling he's sticking with it because he has more votes than any other republican, but, for him, not 218, which, of course, is what he needs to become new speaker. >> next, live, disfunction on the floor, kevin mccarthy, apparently, denied again. we'll be right back. try bounce lasting fresh dryer sheets. ♪ more freshness. more softness. less static. less wrinkles.

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>> longer it drags on, the more votes mccarthy will lose, which has been the case so far, he went from 203 votes in the first two ballots to 202, and now in the last fourth ballot it was 201. joining us is republican congressman ken buck from colorado who voted for mccarthy so far. congressman, thanks for joining us. you said something to kevin mccarthy about what needs to happen going forward. tell us what you said. >> well, i had a number of conversations with kevin and i basically told him at some point this needs to break loose, he needs to make a deal to bring

the 19 or 20 over or he needs to step aside and give somebody a chance to do that. i don't know what that time frame is, but, it makes sense that at some point today we're able to move forward in a way that we elect a speaker. unfortunately, the democrats won't agree to a motion to adjourn to meet. the rebels opposing mccarthy will not agree to a motion to adjourn. so, we'll keep going through the exercise on the floor. the smart thing to do is to get together, have a conversation, choose somebody and let's move forward. >> right. i mean. one would have thought that would have happened already. it's not like it was a mystery that this vote was coming up, and somehow kevin mccarthy was caught unawares, i mean, we knew this vote was happening and it seemed very clear whether his five votes or 20 votes, kevin mccarthy was not going to have the votes. do you think he's going to lose on this 5th ballot? >> of course, the 20 have not budged and the democrats will

not vote for him. we'll get the same vote this time as we got the last four times. >> so, your message to kevin mccarthy is we need to fish or cut bait. like, if you can't get to 218 or 217, whatever the threshold is, we need to find someone else. who might that be? >> the next is line is steve scalise. i don't know if he gets more or less, at some point, we have to start to look at the rules and the committee assignments and other things and get back to the basics of what the people's self-interest is in the case and meet some of those interests and get the votes. >> hey, congressman, december dana, are you confident if steve scalise were nominated he would be not in the 20 that. >> there are a few 20 that wouldn't vote for kevin mccarthy but would vote for somebody else. there are others who want

changes in the rules and others who care about policy. i think if steve meets those needs he will be able to move forward and take the speakership. >> and congressman, buck, this is abby phillip. thanks for being here. my question is about what you just said about the timing of this. you said that by today, you need to see some indication of where this is going to go. do you think that by today, kevin mccarthy needs to make that deal or make a decision to move out of the speaker's race? >> i think that at some point today the conference as a whole needs to make a decision. i think what's happening right now is people are getting worn down. they're starting to get some open conflict on the floor as well as behind closed doors. i ink this that conflict is healthy, and i think that the moderates are talking about threats that they may work with the democrats on somebody. the 20 are saying they're not moving no matter what. at some point,

people have to realize that we got to choose a speaker and move forward, the american people sent us here to get the work done. >> do you think that kevin mccarthy is hearing your message? is he willing to step aside if he lowses on a fifth vote or sixth vote or 7th vote? he has more votes than a republican, but not certainly more than anyone running because hakeem jeffries keeps winning. do you sense any willingness to face the music. >> look, hakeem jeffries is losing. >> he has more votes. >> he has more votes but not the ability to become speaker in this congress. so, kevin mccarthy i think, will make the decision at some point and what's going to happen and what should happen sooner rather than later, is some of the senior members, the cardinals on

appropriations and the committee chairman who have been here and supported kevin may have to have that private conversation with him that this doesn't make sense and we need to move forward. >> do you have any sense, sir, that that's actually going to happen? >> i have a sense. it's common sense. but, i don't have a sense that no one has whispered in my here that it's about to happen. >> what you see on the floor, i think common sense left the room a long time ago. i want to follow up on the comment that you made about steve scalise. you said he's probably the consensus candidate. what would he need to do, i realize, the 20 should be split into various camps, but, at the end, he would need 218. what would he have to do to get that? >> i think what steve needs do is we have to have a break, whether it's this evening or at some point and i think steve needs to sit down with each individual and talk with them

with b what they want. the problem is once you make a commitment to a conservative in the caucus, then you have a moderate that says, hey, wait a minute, i've been waiting for that chairmanship. it's almost a 0-sum game. you start giving to one side and take away from the other. >> congressman, how many votes do you think is enough for the process to go on, assuming that kevin mccarthy continues to lose votes which he has been in the last few votes, i mean, this is the fifth now, what's the maximum that you think is acceptable for a step to try and find somebody else that will get 217 or 218. >> so, if i knew that, i would be on a flight to las vegas and putting my money on the table. i have no idea. i think it's in the next two or three votes, the nerves are frayed enough that people come together and make a decision. >> will you continue to vote for mccarthy or will your vote

shift to a different candidate if it's steve scalise or a present vote? >> so, i'm voting on this vote for kevin mccarthy, stay tuned and i'll let you know what i'll do in the future. >> all right. so, this is the last time he could count on your vote, this ballot, the fifth one. congressman ken buck from colorado, appreciate you. we're joined by an alley of kevin mccarthy, former republican congressman davis from illinois. congressman, you heard buck saying this is the last time that mccarthy can count on his vote, after the fifth ballot, it's up for grabs whether it goes to steve scalise or present or some other option. >> this is a big deal, ken's the first of the 201 left that is standing up and saying "this has got to end today". ken is known to be more on the far right of our conference. he's

right, though, when concessions are made to get votes out of those 20, it could upset the apple cart and some folks who are already supportive of kevin mccarthy. i talked to brian fitzpatrick who was one of those in the animated conversation in the center aisle, not too long ago. ken reiterated what brian told me that said some of those 20 wants rules changes. those are things that kevin mccarthy to do to get those votes back. but, there'll still be a number of republicans that will never support kevin mccarthy. but, when ken buck stands up and he does not represent a good chunk of the 201 others holding out for mccarthy, but when he gets up and starts to talk aboutalititives and ending this tonight, you got to wonder if there's more that he's talked to that would make this more of an issue for kevin mccarthy. >> that's my question, how much he actually speaks for the body of the 201 remaining kevin

mccarthy votes. he was originally on a lot of our charts were down as a mccarthy skeptic. he was one of two that we might thought voted against mccarthy. how much do you think he represents the consensus view, even though as you point out, he is, um, essentially, in his heart, um, a freedom caucus tea party type of candidate. >> ken was on my card, too. i mean, i wrote down some names and talked to you earlier yesterday, watching the front of the alphabet, i had him on a flip of that vote. he's given the ultimatum right now that he's sticking with kevin for one vote. that's a big deal. i don't think ken would do it alone. ken is a friend of mine, he and i have history together, we were in the same car together

when ken experienced heart issues. what i know about ken buck, is he's speaking for more people than him. and i think that you'll start to see more votes go away from kevin if this keeps up. kevin's team and his allies got to do what fitzpatrick and gallagher were doing figuring out what rules changes will move folks like ralph norman, where you're going to win based upon the fact that you have the votes. he has to do it quick, based on what ken just said. >> i just be wonder if that will be enough. quite honestly, what i've heard from my sources on mccarthy's team, saying this group, not just about the rules changes, there are a lot of things that they want, including membership on the rules committee. and also a commitment, um, that the

national republican congressional committee will not get involved in primaries, meaning that they won't support their incumbent republicans, that's, of course, my guess is that these far-right, maga republicans want more of them inside the conference and they want to have primaries where those candidates defeat more traditional, conservative republicans like yourself. don't you think? >> well, the nrcc doesn't get involved in primaries, but, superpacs have on both sides. we had more resources than would ever have been spent. we had, one week, the last week of the election there were 8,000 gross rating points in one media market. so, the money was there, the outside groups were coming from all over. and these are things that you could nuance if somebody really wants to get to yes, figure out a way to give

them a seat at the table to make the it decisions. the key is how many are willing to get to yes and how many are just hell no on kevin. >> a message from a conservative to kevin mccarthy, cut a deal or get out of the way. more of cnns special live coverage "chaos in the house", just ahead. that's right, jamie. but it's not just about savings. it's about the friends we make along the way. you said it, flo. and don't forget to floss before you brush. your gums will thank you. -that's right, dr. gary. -jamie? sorry, i had another thought so i got back in line. what was it? [ sighs ] i can't remember.

i'm feeling better. body pain? headache? nope. all in one and done. cuh-congestion? better. cough? fever? better. mucinex all in one relieves 9 symptoms in 1 dose. it's not cold and flu season. it's always comeback season. >> and welcome back to cnn's special live coverage, pressure building on kevin mccarthy as he falls short once more on the bid for leader. the bid has a

sell-by date. lauren joins us now. donalds a reported candidate. >> he has spoken to kevin mccarthy and he does plan to speak to him again. pressed on wether or not he thought mccarthy should drop out of the race, donalds said he wouldn't answer that question. i think it's interesting that he's really keeping people guessing, here's what he said to reporters. >> congressman, are you actually running for speaker or is this more about continuing the conversation and finding a place for kevin mccarthy. >> well, they nominated me, didn't they? look, i think right now it's something, i told my colleagues, like, i didn't come to dc interested in becoming speaker of the house. but, i also understand that part of my responsibility is to make sure that our conference gets to a point where we're doing the things effectively and

constructive way to campaign back home. i'm going to help anyway i can. >> donalds was spelling one a concession that he wants to see from mccarthy and that's lowering the threshold of a number of members it takes to call the vote for speaker from five oh just one. that is a key ask. we will see if it makes a difference and delivers mccarthy the vote even if he did agree to it. >> appreciate it. back with the team in new york. the idea of lowering the number to just one? >> insane. >> what with would that mean? >> it's one vote on the floor, go to the floor, to move, to vacate the chair, in other words to fire the speaker. under these circumstances, by the way, kevin mccarthy handed the rope to his opponents to wrap the noose around his neck. >> right now there are people who would use that. >> even five is bad and one is

ridiculous. the democrats were smart when they took the majority and raised the threshold to 50. and mccarthy would like to bring it down to five, but, i don't imagine why they would concede to something like this. it's time to stop appeasing these people. >> and also is it about that rule even? >> i mean, this has been going back to where they were in the past, lowering it to one, they seemed to settle on five and be fine with it. um, and, agree to that. so, this is, again, it isn't about these minor, you know, sort of rules and the motion to vacate the chair, it's about they don't like you. kevin mccarthy. that's it. and you know, lauren boebert laid it out when she said we want the rules changed but we want a different kind of leader, what kind of leader, he suggested this might be the last time that he supports kevin mccarthy for speaker. may be, he was either

the last time or may be he'll do it again, but, he's clearly open to changing, pete sessions has been on our air, essentially saying the same thing, saying what does the 20 want in terms of who would they accept as a speaker? because it's clear they're not accepting kevin mccarthy. >> we have evidence that they're not serious about getting to a place on kevin mccarthy because donalds was a kevin mccarthy supporter. >> let's listen to the end of the roll call? >> mccarthy? >> zinke? >> mccarthy. >> the reading clerk will now call the names of the members

elect who did not answer the first call of the roll. armstrong? >> mccarthy. >> byce? >> mccarthy. >> buck? >> mccarthy. >> cloud? >> donalds.

>> crenshaw? >> mccarthy. >> davidson? >> mccarthy. >> garberino? >> mccarthy. >> grossman?

>> mccarthy. >> jackson? >> jeffries. >> pelosi? >> jeffries. >> presley? >> jeffries. >> rogers of washington?

>> mccarthy. >> salizar? >> mccarthy. >> santos? >> mccarthy. >> schiff? >> jeffries. >> sparks? >> present.

>> so, what is the significance, congressman jones, what is the significance of congressman buck saying perhaps this is the last time he will vote for kevin mccarthy. >> one of the moderate, bipartisan members of the house gop. >> someone who you've worked with. >> some who i worked with who at times will break from jim jordan when it comes to standing up to big tech for example. but, the fact that he is saying that there's a time certain by which mccarthy has to secure his speakership is a really bad bell weather for mccarthy. >> he wants to be a free agent is essentially what he said. i'm going to be open to somebody else. and that's not encouraging if you're kevin mccarthy. >> and i suspect that you will see the dam breaking quickly. among republican members, it's

in kevin mccarthy's best interest to keep everyone on the floor and keep going to multiple rounds because once they break from the floor, they are going to have to break for a meeting. and hash it out. we can't do this forever. we have no sworn in house members, say we had a national security crisis, there's no speaker of the house right now. this is an untenable position to carry on purely because kevin mccarthy will not step down and try someone else hike a steve scalise. i thought it was interesting that his name was the one floated by ken buck, because, i worked with ken buck when he was in the freedom caucus, he's a pretty conservative guy. but, he signalled that he would be willing to go to the next guy in line which is scalise, who, by the way has a highly professional team, has a leadership office and could pretty seamlessly transition into speaker of the house if it went that way. >> listen, this has been a

terrible day or kevin mccarthy. he needs to hold people, he failed at doing that white house you saw the defection with sparks there. and he needs to peel people away. he's failed at that. the 20 only need to hold the line and they have done that over and over again. they put up donalds, it doesn't matter who they put up, they could put up peppa pig and they could still hold up the line. the strategy is simple, a small but mighty band of people who have done what they wanted do which is to block kevin mccarthy. >> what is the chance of adjournment. >> it's up to the democrats. i suspect the democrats will i allow the republicans to stew in their own muck awhile longer, they will have dinner at some point, may be at 5:30-6:00, they will have enough and agree to adjourn. and that's where we

are. and i suspect right now, this merry little band of destroyers, they may win out on this in the short-term on mccarthy. >> how does it actually work? does somebody then go to steve scalise? >> well, what will happen is that, test incumbent upon kevin mccarthy to make the decision to withdraw. obviously he hasn't done that yet. >> it has to be his step? >> he would have to take his name out of consideration. >> now, how that happens, i suspect his key alleys will talk to him and say he needs do it for the good of the country and the institution. and if he were to step back, you may see more people jumping in who wants to be speaker other than scalise. >> it seems highly unlikely. i mean, mccarthy has been wanting this for years and has debased himself continually to get this. >> i think that the more likely scenario is that someone else

nominates steve scalise without consulting, he gets a number of votes and ultimately, the conference decides to break and have that "come to jesus" moment of kevin can't get there. it's not a foregone conclusion that stefanik would want to put her name up. to me, steve scalise makes sense, but, this is a tough caucus to corral. >> he would have to accept the nomination as well. scalise could decline the nomination. at this point, kevin mccarthy has lost the speaker's race, the rest is gravy for his detractors, it reminds me of the game, mortal combat, after you defeated the opponent, the referery is like, "finish him". please advise how kevin mccarthy can reside in the speaker's office? this is embarrassment

after embarrassment. >> he has 200 plus votes in his name. >> at this point, 201 votes and a dollar 50 will get you coffee, it's not going to get you the speakership at this point. you know, you hear his supporters coming on and saying, you know, they hope something happens and they hope they could bring these 20 folks on. but, hope is not a strategy at this point. and everything they've done so far hasn't worked, they thought that the break would help them and that hasn't helped either. >> we'll take a short break. our coverage continues in just a moment. (children giggling) hey, i was, uh, thinking about going back to school to get my masters. i just saw something that said you could do it in a year for, like, $11k.

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drama and dysfunction continuing, ruling the house floor. kevin mccarthy suffering a fifth straight defeat in his bid to become speaker of the united states house of representatives. in fact, he is losing votes in successive ballots. let's bring in a republican who voted for kevin mccarthy three times and in the last two ballots have switched to present. why, congressman? why vote present? >> well, i think it's important for us as republicans to address concern and come to an agreement and not waste everyone's time and we need to have further deliberation to make sure we can elect a speaker, and we still need to have a discussion. we need to go back to the conference room and have this discussion, not wasting time on the floor because no one is going to budge. it's not going to change, and i think we have a constitutional duty to elect the people.

this body needs to learn to deliberate, and come to an agreement. >> ken buck of colorado has voted for mccarthy four times, but he said that was the last one. he's someone he can count on. he's pushing for there to be a resolution for this by today, and he's even suggesting even steve scalise should be next in line to try to become speaker. what do you think of that? >> i think we should have discussions. kevin needs to meet with people, see if we can get there. these are legitimate concerns people have. it's how the funding goes, and how really the floor functions, and so these are concerns we can address, but we need to address them internally. we have to have deliberation, not accusing people, not really, you know, having people made into evils because everyone has an independent vote, and we're

only accountable to the people who we represent. no one is entitled to any vote, and kevin will work hard, but he didn't make a case with some of the people. he needs to make a case and address some concerns. we need to go back because right now we are wasting time, and, you know, it's not the first time that it took awhile for us to get a speaker. so it's okay. it's normal process of deliberation, but it has to happen. instead of getting up on the floor and doing the same the same, it's not going to change the dynamics. that's why i felt like there was no one there on the republican side that was able to get enough votes for the speaker, so we have to deliberate further. >> you're right, it's not the first time, but the last time was literally 100 years ago. 1923, that went to nine ballots. how many ballots do you think kevin mccarthy should keep going before you adjourn and hammer something out with a clear candidate who can get 218 votes?

>> i think we should be adjourning now. we should really instead of going home last night, we should have stayed up all night until we figured out, you know, how we can get a speaker or if you have the same one, it's okay too. we actually have a constitutional duty to elect a speaker, but to send them on the floor and just stand up and do the same thing is not getting us anywhere. so we do need to recess and get to the vote to have a republican speaker, but it can only happen if we talk to each other and address concerns and have discussion and not accuse each other of someone being evil, if someone is not doing that. everyone has different experiences, and we here have to be able especially in a tight majority, to be able to come to consensus and work with each other, and that is some of the leadership skill the next speaker needs to show, and if kevin wants to be the one, he has to do better working with

people who don't kbreagree with and getting them on board. >> mccarthy and his allies say they have met with these rebels and given into their demands over and over and over, and ak ak ak acquiesced on many things. should they have given more? >> it's about major issues. as i said, the appropriation process and amendment process is what members can do on the floor. this is a legitimate concern that a lot of people have. american people have problems and we have uncontrolled spending and we can do nothing about it, and i think that needs to stop. we need to have authorization. we need to set function as a proper institution right now. we just have showed this, and this is theater because we have real problems asking american people, and we have to be able to help process this to fund the

democratic institution. he eliminated a lot of rules and i think a lot of those rules need to be reinstilled. it's not a dictatorship. we need to make sure there's rules and processes and they're all addressed. i think we have some good moves. i think our rules package democracy and i think it's a positive move, but i think until they agree as a conference to something we can all support, we should not continue all of this useless waste of vote that will get us nowhere. >> are you going to keep voting present until this meeting between all the house republicans or between mccarthy and the rebels happens, or are you going to keep voting present until there is clearly somebody who can get 218 votes? >> i'm going to -- hopefully the next time we have a meeting, we'll come back with a republican speaker. >> all right. >> i think that is very important and i'm sure we will. >> congresswoman victoria spartz

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