department of justice regulations governing such matters. this appointment underscores for the public, the department's commitment to independence and accountability in particularly sensitive matters and to making decisions indisputably died guided by the facts and the law. >> david axelrod called the white house handling of this situation, the white house now, to use his word, suboptimal. others have put it more bluntly, raising more direct questions about transparency, including cnn's phil mattingly. how is the white house reacting to the appointment of a special counsel. >> officially the white house counsel says they believe the investigation will have full cooperation from white house officials and biden's attorneys. and it will show that in the end this was a mistake, an inadvertent mistake at that. when the attorney general made this appointment today,

something white house officials were not aware of in advance, he detailed a timeline and underscored the fact when the president first talked about the classified documents earlier this week, he omitted a second set of documents we discovered last night. and they knew about them. take a listen. >> the review was underway when you guys gave the detailed statement about the first set of documents. the review was underway when the president spoke about the first set of documents. you're now saying you didn't talk about the second set of documents discovered almost a month prior because a review was underway. it doesn't make any sense. the only difference was that reporters had information on the first set of documents and therefore you chose to exclude the second set of documents until reporters got information on the second set of documents. >> let me unconfuse you, phil. we are trying to do this by the book. i said yesterday this was under review by the department of justice. and the process is as such. when the president's lawyers realized that the documents

existed, that they were there, they reached out to the archives. they reached out to the department of justice, rightfully so, may i add. that is what you're supposed to do as lawyers. that's what they did. and they have fully been cooperating with the department of justice. >> anderson -- >> she didn't answer your question. >> there's nothing in that statement to unconfuse, to use her words. we're told from officials inside the justice department that the white house messaging and the fact that justice department officials felt that some of the messaging portrayed a narrative that wasn't necessarily accurate played a role in the decision to appoint a special counsel. why that matters is this. part of the reason i was told there was so little information, there was such extensive limits on what could be said over the course of the days leading up to this moment, was because white house officials were very concerned about the possibility of having a special counsel appointed. they didn't think one was

merited, and they didn't want one to have to deal with. they have one. they have made clear they will cooperate throughout. the cooperation was never in question. it was about how things were presented and what they were willing to acknowledge publicly. obviously there's been some divergence in those two issues. and that played a role in the decision by the attorney general today, anderson. >> joining us is two cnn legal analysts, elliott williams and elie honig. elie, just from a messaging standpoint and just an accuracy standpoint, the white house could have come out the day president biden spoke. they could have acknowledged there were more documents found, being up front about it, and they didn't. >> the white house messaging was a mess, and it's self-destructive. the specific problem they is this. here's the time line. in november, joe biden's lawyers went through and found classified documents in his office. in december they went and found classified documents in his home. in january, three days ago, they came out and said, we found

classified documents in the office. but they made no mention of the home. and that is utterly inexplicable. of course that's a pr problem but more than that. when you're a prosecutor and you're looking at the subject of an investigation like this, you start with giving them the benefit of the doubt. when they start giving away their credibility, it is very difficult for them to win it back. that's why evan perez's reporting makes sense to me. >> special counsel typically has a lot of latitude in how they go about conducting an investigation. what are the parameters and stumbling blocks given this involves a sitting president. >> the big stumbling block to the extent you want to call it, based on justice department guidelines, you can't charge a sitting president with a crime, as we all had a crash course in through the years of the trump administration. the justice department will not charge a sitting president with a crime. in terms of stumbling blocks, a res special counsel has broad latitude access to staff, access to resources, and so on.

i want to underscore a really important point here, anderson. the justice department did not need legally to appoint a special counsel here. this is for the appearance. elie used the term a moment ago, pr problem. and that's really bha it is. this is not at the moment a legal problem for the white house. this is purely a function of how well the white house has characterized the situation that they're in. it's an entirely different scenario than what we saw over the last several months with former president trump. >> elie, in order to do a thorough investigation, does the special counsel need to interview the president? >> i think they have to eventually. >> and is that why the president said his attorneys have said to him, don't inquire about what the documents are because the less you know the better. >> that could be. it's the standard operating procedure when you're the subject of an investigation like this. you don't want to give your client any more information than they have. you want to put him away and preserve him as is. ultimately this is going to come down to knowledge and intent. did joe biden know about these

documents? what was his intent. you investigate other people around joe biden. you have to make an effort if you're doj to speak with joe biden. now, that could go the easy way. he could agree to it. that could go the really difficult way. there could be a subpoena and perhaps a fight in the courts. or we could see some sort of middle ground -- bill clinton, for example, when ken starr wanted to talk to him after a difficult negotiation, they reached a middle compromise where bill clinton testified on video tape. >> the investigation into former president trump is different in many ways, most notably the fact he's being investigated for obstruction and there was a lot of back and forth about these documents and their inability or refusal to turn them over. do you think the special counsel heading of that investigation needs to interview the former president? does that calculation change if they anticipate recommending indictment? >> this is the point elie is making as well. they can interview the former president, but they'll get useful information about of the individuals around him. it's not just obstruction. it's obstruction -- it's

mutilation of documents possibly, mishandling of defense information, compounded by the former president's conduct going back months before that search warrant was executed in august. so, what i think they would do is build a case around the former president, maybe up to and including him. and look, he has done himself no favors by speaking out publicly already through the truths, if you want to call them that, the statements he's put online and so on. he's already out there, frankly n a way that current president president biden is not. the question is would he submit to questions by law enforcement? we'll have to see how that goes. >> is it coincidence the attorney general appointed somebody who is reported to be a very conservative attorney who works for the department of justice? >> that has to be have been intentional. i think what merrick garland wants here is credibility. he wants to be able to point to this investigation and say this is not somebody who was in league with joe biden. i think it was a smart move, i think, to put someone who has

conservative credentials but also is an accomplished, established, veteran federal prosecutor. both of these appointments to special counsel are about independence and credibility. >> ultimately though whose decision is it whether or not charges are brought. >> both special counsels are going to go about their investigations. they're both going to come back to the attorney general. we don't know when. we don't know who will be first. but the attorney general has to give -- the law says -- great weight to what the special counsels recommend. he can overrule them. but if so, under the law, the ag has to report back to congress that i overruled the special counsel. >> eli hoenig and elliott williams. joining me now, cnn political commentator, david urban, who was campaign adviser to the former president. governor dean, are you satisfied with how the white house has handled this situation? >> well, i think they could have done better. i certainly don't think i would have exposed myself to the press

core the way joe did. but i think we're going to find that these are two very different things, that it was mostly inadvertent what biden did. and what trump did obviously wasn't. it's ironic in some ways that the big rhubarb about trump and mar-a-lago is now, i think, deflated this as a similar issue. i think a lot of people are just looking at this and saying, well, inflation's down, so this is just more washington politics. >> david, what do you make of the appointment of the special counsel on biden and the person who is picked? do you think that's a smart move by merrick garland? >> yeah, as elliott and elie were saying earlier, he had to do it for the credibility of doj and the department of justice to stand for anything moving forward, they have to have equal justice under the law here. having special counsel appointed in the former president document mishandling case and now this, i

think it's only -- you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. and it's been reported, i think that the suboptimal performance of the past few days of weak, drip, drip, drip, not getting out all the information. quite frankly, the president's indignation about being asked, they were locked in my garage. these were safe. you know? it's kind of -- it's kind of laughable. >> governor dean, would -- you said, you know, that you wouldn't have had the president talking about it -- i don't want to put words in your mouth, but as he did. shouldn't the white house, though, have just gotten out in front of the fact that more documents were found? they knew that when they were talking about the first batch of documents that were found. why not just get that out there? >> i don't -- the reason for the big grin was i think joe probably scored a few point when is he talked about his corvette. you're sort of going, what?

i think he's going to get points among a fair number of americans for having a corvette. probably the trumpists, maybe he won't get any votes. but i thought that was interesting. no, i wouldn't have had -- look, you don't have the president go out and -- i personally this this is going to end up not being the same caliber of the mar-a-lago situation. and trump comes across as somebody who's got something to hide, and biden comes across as a guy who made a silly mistake. now, we don't know that. and i do think that the notion that they hired a guy who's been appointed by trump was a very smart move. and i do think he had to do that. and this investigation, his credibility depends on what happens in this investigation. you know, i know joe biden, and i don't think he's capable of having some nefarious reason for taking these documents. but this is a serious things. you do not take intelligence documents out of the white house and put them in your house no matter who you are. and so, i think we just have to

let it play out. >> and david, we also learned -- >> anderson? >> go ahead, david. >> i was just going to say the sitting president didn't do himself any favors. governor dean saying it's a mistake, he's being transparent. he didn't do himself any favors by not getting it out there, saying, hey, look, there are other documents out, whether it's from the podium or lawyers or somebody else, just putting the full information out. if another document comes someplace tomorrow rngs it's going to be really bad. >> let me be frank about this. i think that's a press problem. i think the press gets indignant if they don't get a full serving of whatever. and this is what the press ho c hocus-pocuses about. >> governor dean, besides, you know, indignation from reporters, it does prolong stories if one day it's one thing and then, oh, low and

behold, there are more documents. and it does -- it just seems like why not just be up front? >> well, okay. >> it's not the press's fault. >> go ahead, governor. >> the press has its little idiosyncrasies that i've grown to not be so fond of them. and that's one of them. let me just make this up because i have no idea what went on in the white house. if i'm arranging a trip between the two leaders of the biadjacent nations, do i want this to come out while this summit is going on between the canadian premier and the mexican president? in general it is better to get everything out first. but i just don't think yet we're at the level where this is much more than press indignation. now, it could be more eventually. but, you know, i've been through this business a long time. and i know press indignation that may or may not be justified when i see it. and this just -- you know, we

all have our little ways of doing our jobs, and that's part of the press' job. they get more indignant about stuff like this than the average person is going to. i don't want to whitewash this. this could be a very serious problem. >> yeah. >> i've known biden a while, and i just don't think he's capable of that much duplicity. but we're going to find out. and that's the good thing. >> i've got to leave it there. governor dean, appreciate it. david urban, as always, thank you. we have breaking news. cnn has just confirmed that the only child of elvis presley, lisa marie presley has died at the age of 54. we'll have the latest on that next. noom helped jan unlearn the old ways of losing weight. matthew learned why he was eating. and gary figured out tha.. actually, i'll let him say it weight loss starts with this. noom used psychology to help them los a combined 120 pounds what noom provided was a better understanding

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we have breaking news. it is sad news to report. lisa marie presley, daughter and only child of elvis and priscilla presley, has died. she was just 54 years old. she had been hospitalized for cardiac arrest. chloe, what do we know? >> reporter: anderson, just moments ago, a representative for priscilla presley and the presley family released this statement to cnn saying priscilla presley and the presley family are shocked and devastated by the tragic death of their beloved lisa marie. they're grateful for the support, love, and prayers of everyone and ask for privacy during this difficult time. like you said, earlier this morning, cnn confirmed that emts responded to lisa marie's

residence, and it was a possible cardiac arrest. just a few hours ago, priscilla press see taking to instagram, asking for prayers, thanking everyone for the outpouring of support, with tons of comments flooding by fans. i was at the golden globes earlier this week in l.a. i saw priscilla. i saw lisa marie. she definitely did not look like her usual glowing self. i didn't have a chance to speak to her. i passed by her table. it was a really big night because austin butler, who portrayed her father in "elvis," he won a golden globe. and it was a very touching moment. even the viewers at home saw her as she was staring at austin, as he gave this moving speech, next to her mother. we knew how close priscilla and lisa marie were. it's been a rough couple of years because lisa marie lost her son to suicide in 2020, and she opened up about that loss in

a very emotional essay this past summer about deal being grief and how hard it's been for her since the loss of her son, benjamin. but, you know, our thoughts go out to priscilla, the entire family, and to lisa marie's children for what can be such an unimaginably difficult night for them. >> chloe, appreciate that. joining us now by phone is stephanie elam, who was recently with lisa marie presley, also at the golden globes, and nischelle turner, host of "entertainment tonight," who interviewed lisa marie presley at the golden globes. michelle, how did she seem to you? >> i heard chloe say she did not seem like her glowing self. she was subdued. we did notice that when speaking to her at the golden globes. but she was happy to be there supporting the film, supporting the elvis film, also supporting austin butler. she was a big fan of his

portrayal of her father. so, she was happy to be there with him. her mother was there as well, and they did sit together. but, again, she did seem a bit subdued. she did not seem -- as i've interviewed her in the past. she didn't seem like that same person, more bubbly, more outgoing. she was telling us that she was very happy to be there that night, and it was just a couple of days after her father's birthday. so, she reflected on that, having it be such a special night to celebrate her father that night in just have celebrated his birthday a couple of days before. >> stephanie, you were at the golden globes as well. >> yes, anderson. i was on the carpet, and i did see lisa marie walk just right in front of us. and i have to agree with chloe and with michelle. he looked fallow. she seemed sort of curled into herself a little bit. she was walking several feet in front of her mother. and it just seemed like she was

moving a little differently than what i've seen previously when i've seen lisa marie out. i would agree that she seemed very happy to be there and supporting this movie about her father, and you could see when austin butler won the award and he faced the presley family, she looked like she had tears in her eyes. she looked very emotional about it. but definitely the way she was going down the carpet was very reserved, as she did not seem like she felt well. and i actually thought that at the time and had a quick conversation about it. there was something about the way she was moving that just did not look like she was at 100%. and also the distance between she and her mom as they were making their way down the carpet, it almost implied she was just trying to get through the carpet and be done. sometimes you see celebrities, they want to stop and talk, and other times they want to get through it. that's the energy she was giving making her way down the carpet. >> michelle, you have probably

seen her in many events, talked to her before. she herself had her own music career. she had three records she put out. she was the only child of elvis presley. she was the executor of the presley estate, as far as i understand. there was certainly a lot of -- i mean, this is somebody who was born into this very famous family and lived a life in the public eye in a -- for better or worse over the course of her whole life. >> absolutely. i mean, she was the apple of her father's eye in so many ways. we saw that. but you're right. she did kind of live out her life in an eccentric way in front of us, married to michael jackson before. married to nicolas cage. she does have a daughter as well. her son did commit suicide, had death by suicide a couple of years ago. so, she was dealing with grief. this family knows about grief and knows what about what it is

to live that out publicly. she did love music. she did love -- you know, she loved her father. she was behind his film 100%. she was behind the portrayal of her father 100%. she was actually on our platform with austin butler on golden globes night. and he -- and they both spoke so lovingly about how they all stuck together through the process of making this film, and how they leaned on each other and relied on each other and cared so much about each other. he continued to speak about the fact that he couldn't get through it without the support of lisa marie and her mother, priscilla, in portraying their father. just like chloe and stephanie were saying, anderson, she did not seem at 100% strength that night. we also had a conversation about it, that she just didn't seem herself. >> michelle, it's certainly a big burden for an only child

like her with the presley estate to be the person -- >> absolutely. >> -- responsible for continuing the legacy of -- the remarkable legacy of elvis presley. and i think this film was very so important to her because it is really introducing elvis presley to whole new generations of people around the world who may not -- you know, who didn't grow up with him, who weren't alive even when he was alive. so, the weight of that, the responsibility of that, it's clearly -- it's probably why she wanted to be there, even if she wasn't feeling particularly great at the golden globes. >> absolutely. and she was determined to continue to celebrate her father's legacy and to, like you said, introduce him to more audiences. and it's interesting. i just had a conversation about that on sunday how they went and were celebrating on elvis' birthday, showing this film to fans, and how they had such a cross section of people there

celebrating elvis and this film and celebrating his legacy. it was from young to old, and it was really, he said, very special for them to see because they do feel like this film then, you know, opened him up to a whole new audience. and i remember at the premiere of this film speaking to lisa marie about it, and also when they got the hand and footprint ceremony, her and her mother a few months ago talking to her about this fact. and she said, you know, that's why they were so determined to have a hand in this because they wanted it to be right. they needed it to be right. and they were so happy that this film was so well received and that austin butler did such an amazing job portraying her father because it was her life's mission to continue, you know, his legacy of good work and good music. >> yeah. nischelle turner, stephanie e lar, appreciate it both of you being with us. again, lisa marie presley has died at the age of 54. we'll be right back. by analyzing data from billions ofof emails

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new york republican congressman and falsely self-proclaimed star college athlete george santos said he's not stepping down today, from both parties as well as top republicans from his home district. he told one of them he was a volleyball star at a college he never attended. flee on foot running away from

manu raju like a man with his pants on fire. >> mr. santos, why do you lie to your voters about your qualifications, your past, being jewish? why did you lie to them? don't the voters deserve an explanation about the widespread lies about your past? how can you be trusted with sensitive security information, mr. santos? >> how can you say your voters elected you if they didn't know who they were electing. >> -- charges you are facing, mr. santos? are you staying in congress because you're concerned about losing the seat, democrats picking up the seat? what has the speaker said to you, mr. santos? has he told you to stay in office? have you got assurances there will be any committee assignments? mr. santos? mr. santos?

why did you say your family fled the holocaust. is that true? how can you be trusted with classified security documents, mr. santos? mr. santos, why won't you respond to any of these questions about your past? >> can you imagine being a staffer for that guy? i mean, your whole job would just be that, holding your arms up in front of the elevator so he can get in and then you get in. it's going to be a long two years. joining me now, richard torrez, one of two new york members who filed the complaint against mr. santos. you introduced the santos act, which is an acronym for stop another -- additional information about their background and impose a criminal penalty if they lie. congressman santos' argument seems to be despite the lies he's admitted to, the voters elected him.

they deserve to have their choice honored. what is your response? >> left unmentioned is the fact that george santos defrauded the voters. he won under fundamentally false pretenses. he lied about every aspect of his life, his family heritage, his employment, his business dealings, his philanthropic endeavors, ties to historic events like pulse mass shooting, the holocaust, 9/11. so, the breadth of his deception the simply staggering. and for him to speak as if he won fairly is completely disingenuous and dishonest. he not only lies, but he lies about his lies. he claims he never lied about his work experience, he only embellished. he said he never said he was jewish, only that he was jew-ish. >> he lied today -- not talking to actual reporters.

he went on a radio program with matt gaetz. and he lied on that radio program saying he's lived an honest life and he's never been accused of anything. you filed an official complaint with house ethics committee asking them to investigate the congressman. do you know if an investigation like that, if he -- can santos use campaign funds to pay lawyers to deal with that investigation? because i'm wondering if just the pressure alone of that investigation and the financial burden it would put on mr. santos would be enough to maybe drive him out of congress because he wants to avoid that financial, you know, cost of the investigation. >> i mean, it seems to me mr. santos is intent on clinging on. it seems to me he would only resign in the context of a plea bargain with the u.s. attorney. more dangerous than his line is his probable law making. for me, the million dollar

question is where did all the money come from? how did he manage to lend his campaign over $700,000, as recently as 2020 reported earning a salary of $55,000, and subsequently between $3.5 million and $11.5 million dollar. and he claims the money comes from the organization shrouded in secrecy. he claims to have millions of dollars from all of these clients but has never disclosed the names of these clients, as required by federal law. mr. santos likely falsified his financial disclosure. >> it is extraordinary that a republican republican also representing long island, new york, has called for full investigation. a number of his fellow republicans from the district have said he should resign. a number of republicans officials in nassau county have said he should resign. would you support taking this to law enforcement if the house

ethics committee refuses to investigate? >> mr. santos is the target of criminal investigations at the local, state, national, and international level. so, i support holding him accountable by every means. but notice that there's a glaring disconnect between local republicans who have heard directly from the voters and who have called on him to resign, and house republican leadership, which has been conspicuously silent about the fraudulence of george santos. i mean, kevin mccarthy needs every vote he can get, and he needs the vote of george santos. the new speaker is at the mercy of not only the most extreme members of his party but the most ethically compromised. coming up the suspect in the murders of four college students in idaho was in court again today. our gary tuchman was in the state with the latest on the trial and reportedly online speculation and sometimes misinformation about the suspect.

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the man accused of stealing these four lives returned to court today. bryan kohberger is charged with first degree murder in the stabbings of the idaho university students in november. police continue to seek any information about him. our national correspondent gary tuchman is in moscow, idaho now. what happened in court today, gary? >> anderson, kohberger remains

in this county jail in moscow. this is also the courthouse where we saw him today in courtroom number one. when he walked in, he was wearing an orange prison suit and shackles around his leg. he showed no emotion. his public defender told the judge, we waive the right to a speedy trial. the judge asked kohberger if he agreed with that. he said yes. both sides agreed on a date of june 26th, more than four months from now -- five months from now -- for that particular hearing. you know, all over the world, people are following this case very closely, but some of those people are extremely obsessed, a as you'll see. >> reporter: police and prosecutors are being required to stay quiet outside the courtroom about the university of idaho murder case. but on the internet, there is no such prohibition. >> we have uncovered what we believe are old writings of bryan kohberger. >> reporter: and most of it on tiktok, facebook, and other

places is speculation and hypothesizing. >> pinged in johnson, idaho, which is three hours away from moscow and three hours away from a national forest. >> how prevalent is internet sleuthing? this facebook group, university of idaho murders case discussion, has more than 220,000 followers. this is just one of many groups discussing this case online. prior to the arrest, a user who goes by papa roger, with many creepy and insensitive posts, with speculation such as the white elantra is a red herring. he also declared the murder weapon has been a fixed blade knife. this leads me to believe they got the sheath. the fact he got the detail right about the sheath, despite getting so much else wrong, is one of reasons people believe papa rodger was kohberger. and this person, okay, this

pappa rodger stuff is wild. how would anyone besides him know this. there is no indication facebook or the police believe pappa rodger is kohberger. then there was this video taken prior to kohberger's arrest, with many people hypothesizing online. >> people think that the idaho murderer attended his victims' vigil. >> this person commented, bryan kohberger spotted. in person, sure looks like the psycho. but a tv crew was inside the vigil and has videotaped the man close up. it's definitely not kohberger. we are not showing his face to protect his identity. and then there is this. >> a lot of people have been asking who is rebecca schofield. >> reporter: a woman who calls herself ashley solves mysteries has accused a university of idaho professor of participating

in the killings, never mind the police said the professor is not a suspect. >> we need to dig deeper into her personality so we can understand her beliefs and who she is so that we can further understand her motives for the murders. >> we reached out to galard. she did not respond. but professor rebecca schofield has responded, her attorney filing a defamation lawsuit. the statements made about professor schofield are false, plain and simple. these untrue statements create safety issues for the professor and her family. they also confound the trauma the families of the victims are experiencing. ms. galard has continued to make false statements knowing they are false. thus, this lawsuit became guess to protect professor schofield's safety. >> what is expected to happen

during the preliminary hearing in june? >> reporter: this preliminary hearing will be very important. it will begin on june 26th. it could last all week. it's a minitrial of sorts with a lower standard of proof. the prosecution will present more evidence, more than we learned last week. the defense will get a chance to cross examine. and ultimately the judge will have to decide if there is sufficient evidence for the defendant to be binded over for trial. it's likely that will happen with the amount of evidence we've seen so far and the amount we anticipate we will be learning. we are learning -- we don't know the answer to this, but one thing we didn't learn last week in the affidavit, what is the motive? what do police and prosecutors think is the motive? we may learn that starting june 26th. ahead, a new phase in the january 6th aftermath. key members of the proud boys go on trial, facing the charge of seditious conspiracy. we'll take you inside the case next. relief you need.

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opening statements began today in the federal case against five leaders of the so-called proud boys for the attack on the capitol the second group the justice department prosecuted using the rare charge of seditious conspiracy. joining me now are our law enforcement correspondent

whitney wild. what case did prosecutors lay out in opening statements today? >> there are several main arguments. one is that the leaders of the far right extremist group the proud boys planned for the january 6 attack, they recruited others to join them, and prosecutors said ultimately they were willing to use any means necessary including force to stop joe biden from becoming president. prosecutors said that there was a reason for this. it was because there was a lot of concern within the organization that if biden were elected that would mean the end of the proud boys. they also made the argument that after former president trump told them to, quote, stand back and stand by, the battle lines were drawn. >> how much evidence is there the defendants not only participated in the attack but also had been planning to violently stop the transfer of power? >> reporter: quite a bit of the evidence prosecutors have been pointing to includes messages sent within this group. in addition they were pointing to just the overwhelming amount of video. some of that video, anderson,

captures the very moment one of these defendants broke through the window, ultimately becoming the first rioter to actually make way inside. the evidence they continue to point to is overwhelming. as we know, this capitol riot is one of the most documented crimes of all time and certainly that is the case here. >> what was the argument from the defense? >> reporter: they made a list of arguments as well. some include the fact that they believe there is no specific evidence to support the idea that there was a specific plot that was laid out ahead of january 6th but instead the defense attorneys are making the argument that they were just caught up in the mob mentality. another argument they made was that these protests happened at the capitol all the time. that protests disrupt congressional proceedings all the time. and this was no different. finally, anderson, they were making the argument that ultimately what this is really about at its very core is just delaying a congressional

proceeding. so certainly two very different ways to view the evidence. notably, the prosecutors and the defense both used the same piece of video in their opening argument, something we certainly saw during the oath keepers' trial as well, basically the evidence there for both parties to try to use but putting dramatically different spins on it. >> i'm joined now by a former spokesperson for the paramilitary group the oath keepers, their member and one other member convicted last year. also testifying during a public hearing of the january 6th committee in july. so your experience with the oath keepers, fascinating. the leader of the oath keepers, he lived in your basement. >> he did for eight months. >> what attracted you about the oath keepers initially? >> originally it started with just a healthy distrust of the government. it really was -- it evolved over

time and became much more radicalized -- >> you saw that happening. >> yeah. we saw a shift from what i would term a libertarian anarchist book club to what we saw at bundy ranch and then a progression of armed stand-offs. >> what was rhodes like? this is the guy who led this group, went to yale law school. i don't know what happened in his life that he got to this point but is he a true believer? is it for membership? >> i don't think he is a true believer. he is a very smart individual, a very talented artist as well. he was a sculptor and did incredible art work. he obviously, i feel like he really didn't have a moral anchor and the more attention he got, the more camera time he got, the more membership and donations, it just led to him opening up and moving this creep that continued to a hard right direction. >> did they, did you from the

inside, you know, the randy rhodes, stewart rhodes has talked about all these people who were in the military and law enforcement who belonged to the oath keepers. is that legitimate? or was that a lot, people who actually did have combat experience? >> yes and no. there were a lot of veterans involved but generally the combat veterans, those are pretty sharp, squared away guys. they would come in and see this is really more of a cultive personality and kind of exit quickly stage left. the messaging was there. he was really good at spinning optics. so that was what -- he kind of inflated it. you know, he made it seem like it was a lot bigger with a lot broader membership base than it really was. >> he was supported by this? this was his sole source of income, the memberships? >> yes. he wasn't successful in the financial end of things like alex jones was. alex was much better at the financial side. >> rhodes was living in your

basement. >> his wife had kicked him out and working on a restraining order and he had nowhere else to go. by that time i was gone. i had left and started new life as a first responder and he shows up on my door knocking on the front door, hey, i have no place to go and i am a sucker so i let him come and stay. it was only supposed to be a couple nights but it wound up being eight months and i had to finally kick him out. >> how big a threat is the oath keepers? >> i made a mistake and miscounted them. i got to see kind of behind the curtain. that was a mistake because i remember sitting on my couch on january 6th watching in high definition as all this unfolded and it was like i got punched in the gut because i under estimated it. and i had to really come to the realization i may have had a part to play in that in the messaging i helped produce. >> even people who are inept or wanna-be weekend warriors can still kill people and do damage to people. >> yeah. and people died that day.

>> what do you think people need to understand about, whether it is proud boys or oath keepers, because both groups were there that day? >> what is really important right now, we are in a critical moment in history that what we do with democracy and where we go with what happened on january 6th with holding this leadership to account is going to echo throughout the world, that the events that happened in brazil this weekend, i think, are a direct result. and the world is watching how we handle our democracy and how we navigate these issues. and it is very, very important right now that we really hold some account and get our own house in order because what we do in america echoes to the world. >> appreciate you being with us. thank you very much. >> thank you. the news continues. cnn continues with laura coates is next right after a short break. i just booked an appointment and a certified hearing care prprofessional evaluated

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