coverage and benefit options to help find the right plan for you. i was outraged. i was -- it was incomprehensible to me. it was unconscionable and i felt that i needed to do something and do something quickly. i don't think i witnessed any of that nature my entire career.

>> good morning, everyone. i'm don lemon live in memphis, tennessee, where in just moments we're going to speak with the parents of tyre nichols. you heard there the police chief of memphis talking about what she saw on that videotape, what we're going to see a little bit later on this evening, 6:00 central time, 7:00 -- after 6:00 central, after 7:00 eastern time, when that video is released. the police chief saying what she saw doesn't really explain why tyre nichols was stopped in the first place and it speaks to just how horrific this videotape is, saying that it is reminiscent, if not worse than what we saw with rodney king. take a listen. >> can we talk about the nature of the stop? why -- what was the nature? why was he stopped? >> i'm going to be honest with you about the stop itself. what was said is that there was

a witnessing of what was considered reckless driving. we've looked at cameras, we've looked at cameras, and even if something occurred prior to this stop, we've been unable to substantiate that at this time. >> so you haven't been able to substantiate -- >> the reckless -- >> the reckless driving, at all? >> we haven't been able to substantiate the reckless driving. >> and that was why he was supposedly stopped. >> we've taken a pretty extensive look to determine what that probable cause was. and we have not been able to substantiate that. it doesn't mean that something, something didn't happen, but there's no proof. >> there's no proof -- that the camera didn't pick up. >> that the camera didn't pick up. >> it has been said that it is reminiscent, perhaps worse than the rodney king video. is that your assessment? >> that's my assessment. i was in law enforcement during the rodney king incident and it's, it's, you know, very much

aligned with that same type of behavior. >> it's worse? >> sort of group think -- i would -- i would say it's about the same if not worse. >> if not worse. >> if not worse. >> so i am joined now by rowvaughn and rodney wells, the parents of mr. nichols here, of tyre nichols and also benjamin crump, the family attorney. i thank you so much for joining us. i really appreciate you. i don't know how you're holding up and able to do this under these circumstances, but we're certainly grateful that you're here. >> thank you. >> how are you doing? >> reporter: i'm doing as well as can be expected. it's very difficult right now. i'm still trying to understand all of this and trying to wrap my head around all of this. it's still like a nightmare right now. so -- >> just to be honest, listen, just conducting this interview, i'm a mama's boy, i was also a

skater, a skateboarder growing up. and so i just can't imagine my mother dealing with this, when you walked in, you said, don, i'm not very good at this, and i said, i've got you. who would be good at this? >> exactly. >> who would be good at this? >> i don't know, because this is very difficult. this is very difficult. >> yeah. >> yes. >> how are you doing, dad? >> i'm hanging in there. you know, i have to be strong for the family. so, we have other siblings that we have to be strong for also. >> did you hear the chief? >> yes. >> what'd you think? >> i respected what she said. she's doing an excellent job, i feel. she's moving things along and i just, i like what she's doing. >> she said that there has been nothing, no evidence that they have found so far to substantiate why the officers

stopped tyre nichols. no evidence so far. what did you make of that? >> i think it's telling, because there's so much videotape america's about to see, over our law. video from a camera that catches a lot of the tragedy. all of this body cam footage. if tyre was driving reckless, we should see it. we're not saying that they're aligned, but we should see it. and the fact that they can't show it to us further underscores why this was so unnecessary. so unnecessary. i have to say this. because like miss wells said, how swiftly they moved in memphis, and how swiftly the district attorney brought charges against these five black police officers. this is now the blueprint for america when you see officers committing crimes on video, then

you can't tell us that you've got to go six months, you've got to go a year. no, it was these black officers, we saw it move swiftly. and so, think about all the ones we covered, don. i mean, the tamara rices, ahmaud, all of these cases took so long, philando castile for them to charge. but here in memphis, we done have the blueprint that it can be done swiftly and efficiently. >> you're shaking your head in agreement and saying "yes." why? >> because, just the way they moved so fast, i don't understand why they couldn't do that in other cases. but, just to know that they moved as fast as they did lets us know that it can be done. >> you wanted first-degree murder charges. >> yes. >> you didn't get that? >> no. the charges that were filed against those officers are good

charges. those are the charges that i feel will stick. and so, i'm happy with the charges that the district attorney has set forth. >> 20 days since this happened. >> yes. >> without your baby. >> yes. yes. this is hard. no, i don't have my baby. i'll never have my baby again, but i do know that he was a good person and that all of this, all the good in tyre will come out. and so that's what keeps me going, because, i just feel like my son was sent here on assignment from god, and his

assignment was over. it's over. and he was sent back home and god is not going to let any of his children's names go in vain. so when this is all over, it's going to be some good and some positive, because my son was a good and positive person. and that's what keeps me going. >> have you gotten any sleep? >> not really, but it's what it is. >> mom, when did you first learn about this? how did you hear? >> the memphis police department banged on our door approximately between 8:30 and 9:00, asking if we knew tyre nichols.

and we said, yes, what's going on? he's been arrested. arrested for what. dui. dui? my son don't drink like that? what do you mean, dui? well, we had to pepper spray him and taze him so, he's being attended to by the paramedics and we'll send him to the hospital and then after that, he'll go to booking. what?! they then asked me, was he on any type of drugs or anything of that nature, because he was -- they were saying that it was so on him and he had this amount of energy -- >> superhuman energy. >> superhuman energy. and what they were describing was not my son. so i was very confused. i asked if i can go to the

hospital. they told me, no. they left. my husband and i, we got in our car and went to go see if we could find ty, because he wasn't answering his phone or anything. when i asked them where my son was, they said nearby. nearby? what is nearby? i got nothing from them. i think now that i'm actually putting things together, i believe that they were trying to cover it up when they first came to my door. mm-hmm. so around 4:00 in the morning, the doctors called from st. frances and said, mrs. wells, do you know your son's in the hospital? and i said, yes, i was advised

by the police officers. he said, why aren't you here? and i said, the police officers said that i couldn't come, because he was under arrest. the doctor proceeded to tell me that my son had went into cardiac arrest and that his kidneys were failing. this doesn't sound consistent to somebody being tased or pepper sprayed. when my husband and i got to the hospital and i saw my son, he was already gone. they had beat him to a pulp. he had bruises all over him, his head was swollen like a watermelon, his neck was busting because of the swelling, they broke his neck, my son's nose looked like an "s."

they actually just beat the crap out of him. and so when i saw that, i knew my son was gone then, even if he did live, he would have been a vegetable. so once i got to the hospital, all the police officers were basically whisked out, because i heard that the tbi had taken over the investigation. and that was it. they spoke to us, asked a bunch of questions, but i knew something wasn't right. i just didn't understand why they stopped my son in the first place. >> you said that you thought from the initial time when they contacted you that they were trying to cover up? why did you think that? >> well, i didn't think that

initially. as i started getting information and information was coming to me, because they made it seem like the stop and the start -- the start and the stop of the -- was at a certain location, when actually they were less than 80 feet from my home. >> you talked about what you saw. now, i hate to bring this up, but i just have to be honest. you know emmett till. >> yes. >> it's reminiscent of that. >> i haven't seen the video. >> i'm talking about what you saw when you went to the hospital. >> oh, yes. yes. yes. >> definitely. >> that was -- that was terrible. >> dad, would you agree with that? >> oh, most definitely. because i'm the one who took the picture that's being circulated. and i took the picture because he was in such a horrific condition.

he shouldn't have been in that condition from pepper spray and tasing. >> he was never conscience? you said you believed if he lived, he would have been a vege vegetable. >> he calls out for you three times. gut wrench ing. >> screams. >> go ahead, mom. >> that was my baby. he was a mama's boy. that boy loved me to death. he has my name tattooed on his arm. people don't know what those five police officers did to our family. and they really don't know what they did to their own families. they have put their own families in harm's way. they have brought shame to their

own families. they have brought shame to the black community. i just feel sorry for -- i feel sorry for them. i really do. i really feel sorry for them. >> why do you say that? >> because they didn't have to do this. and like i said, they brought a lot of shame to their own family. once you see this video and i know i didn't see it, but from what i hear, it's horrific! and the humanity of it all. where was the humanity? they beat my son like a pinata. my son, he was -- he had crohn's

dis disease, he had surgery in 2013. my son weighed a buck 50. he was 6'3" and he weighed a buck fifty. and those men, if you combine their weights, they all -- it was over a thousand pounds, beating and beating a 150-pound person to death. because that's what they did. they beat my son to death. >> he cried out for his mom. >> yes. >> yes, he cried out for me, because i'm his mother. and that's what he was trying to get home to safety. and it was funny, i was in the room earlier, and my stomach started hurting so bad, and i went into the dean and i told my husband, my stomach is hurting

so bad. and once i found out what happened, it was just the fact that i was feeling my son's pain. i was feeling my son's pain when they were beating him to death. >> you said that you felt sorry for them. where does that come from, mom? >> i don't -- i don't -- i don't hate anybody. that's not in my nature. i just feel sorry for them, because they did something horrendous and -- i don't know. i don't know. >> you said they brought shame on themselves, their family, and

you -- may brought shame on the black community. can you speak to -- these were all black officers. >> people try to say black people, we only try to go after white officers. that's not true. we don't care what color the officer is. we want bad officers taken off the force. we know there's a lot of great officers, i know officers. but there are bad officers, too. and those are the ones that we need to get rid of. because all of these kids that are dying and being killed at the hands of police officers, their parents pay taxes. they're paying their salaries. and then they have to be murdered by a person who they're paying their salaries? that's not right. why is it that black and brown

kids always get beat up when they are encountered with the police? we just had an incident in memphis right after my son, with the white guy who spit on police officer. they didn't beat him to death. why? and i'm not saying they're supposed to, but why? they ran, they didn't get beat up. i don't care what color of police officer, but by them being black, it hurt the black community. >> and you think there's a bias built into the system regardless of what color the officer is? >> yes, what would you say to these officers, mom? >> i would say to these officers that you have to show some compassion to people. we all know that a lot of these

police officers intimidate black people in order for them to do something. they're waiting for them to do something. and they need to learn that everyone is human and everyone should be treated with respect. >> yes. yes. >> she didn't see the video. you saw the video? >> yes. >> what are we going to see, rodney? >> from the initial encounter -- >> you can't even look that way when he talks about the video. >> i didn't want her -- i didn't want her to see the video or hear the video. it was our attorneys' request that she stay in there as long as she could. she heard one word and had to

leave out of the room. and that was when they initially pulled him out of the car, he said, what did i do? >> i knew that's what he said. >> he said, what did i do? why are y'all doing this to me? what did i do? and they proceeded to snatch him out of the car and was trying to wrestle him to the ground. and he got scared. so he was athletic enough to get out of their situation and run. and he was trying to run home, because he was three blocks from the house when they stopped him. so after the initial encounter -- we didn't see everything, because actually when the body cam started, they were already engaged. and then there was the second body cam with the sky cam that

got the encounter. and when i saw the police officer, you know, they have this little like stick, this metal thing that they pull out. >> they pull out -- like an antenna. >> retractable. >> i saw them pull that out and started beating my son with it. and i saw officers hitting on him, i saw officers kicking him. one officer kicked him like he was kicking a football, a couple of times. but the most, the most telling thing about the video to me was the fact that it was maybe ten officers on the scene and nobody tried to stop it or even after they beat him and they propped him up against the car, no one rendered aid to him whatsoever. they walked around, smoking

cigarettes like it was all calm and like, you know, bragging about what happened. >> an hour of video. >> yes. >> and you saw him just sitting there. >> he was sitting there, and then he slumped over. and an officer walked over to him and said, sit back up! mother -- mf, you know, while he's handcuffed. so he had to -- they prop him back up, and he slumped over again, and they prop him back up again, but no one was rendering aid. i saw some fire department people come out there and they just walked around and nobody showed him any aid, and they supposed to be trained in first aid. by the time the paramedic truck pulled up, that's when we couldn't see anything because the paramedic truck blocked the camera. so i was told that the lady who was driving the paramedic truck never got out.

>> sad. >> so it was -- it was just -- you know, to watch your son, as we state all the time, 150 pounds, how could he pose a threat to their lives to where they had to take his life? >> unarmed. >> unarmed. >> what's your message? >> my message is, as my wife said, hopefully from this situation, that we have reform. that police get better training. that, you know, i've heard from people, because of this, where this particular unit -- >> scorpion. >> scorpion unit has beat up other people. but because they didn't die, it's not publicized. it's washed under the rug.

>> you think more is going to come out then? >> i believe that more is going to come out and it's going to be a strong reaction, don lemon. after george floyd, after so many of these tragedies, we prayed for reform. >> can i ask you something? she said her son came here on a mission. and she doesn't hate anybody. she feels sorry for them. doing the work that you do, is there a lesson -- you said this should be a blueprint for around the country. so if -- what is the mission, what will accomplish the mission that she believes that her son was sent to this earth for and taken too quickly? >> and the prayer that i believe miss wells is articulating is that this won't have to happen to other young black and brown children. we gonna have to learn so many

hashtags, don lemon, i have to keep talking to you on cnn, week after every other week about yet another unarmed black person has been killed by police in a highly controversial manner. hopefully this institution al police is saying it's okay to engage in excessive force against black and brown people will finally be del with. we won't continue to try to say that, oh, it's training. they can de-escalate just fine when it's white citizens. we see that all the time. but it's when it's black and brown citizens, no matter if the police are black, hispanic, or white, they seem to do the most, don lemon. and so this is the blueprint from now, you know. memphis police department terminated them immediately. the da brought charges within 20 days. now, when it's not black

officers, we want to see the same type of justice. >> mom? >> yes? >> what are you going to miss about him the most? >> his beautiful smile. and just, my son had a beautiful soul and he touched a lot of people. and i always joke, because he'll come in the house, and he'll come in and say, hello, parents. i'll never hear that again. i'll never cook for my son again. i'll never get a hug from my son again. i won't get anything from my son again. just because some officers decided they wanted to do harm to my son.

and so, this is very difficult thing. no mother should have to go through this. no mother. and i never thought in a million years that i would be sitting on your show, speaking about my deceased son that was killed by the memphis police department. >> you only get one mom. >> yes. >> and i just -- i don't even know what to say. just so you know, i said i was a skater growing up. my mom is with me now, visiting from louisiana. >> oh. >> her boyfriend, found her dead on christmas eve, and she's been with me for two months, and

she's staying with me and i relate to what's going on with you, especially a black family. it doesn't matter the race of the officer. no one deserves to be treated like that. you can be coopted no matter what race by a system that is biased. and i appreciate you saying that, because the world should know it doesn't matter the race of the officer. people just want to be treated with dignity and fairness. and for a traffic stop, no one should have to die. >> exactly. and i just want to say, thank you to the district attorney, because he's working very hard on this. and he was just elected in. and he's doing an excellent job, as well as the chief of police. >> you know what's extraordinary, as painful as this is, we haven't heard this family espouse one ounce of hate.

>> not at all. >> they continue to say, we just feel terrible that they did this our child. >> right. >> that's the -- >> thank you, ben. thank you, rodney. >> you're welcome. >> thank you. >> thank you. i appreciate you. thank you. we're back in a moment. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, longcting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps kee. it's two injections, giv by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's oneess thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines,

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chip. the united states of america, we pay our debts. >> senator joe manchin is urging the white house to begin talks with republicans after he met privately with speaker kevin mccarthy to discuss raising the debt ceiling. senator manchin joins us now. you heard the president there. he said he believes that these maga republicans are trying to destroy the economy over the debt ceiling. is he right? >> well, i don't want to think that. i don't think anybody wants to destroy our economy. but you've got to talk. you've got to converse with all people up here and all sides, with different opinions. first of all, we have to recognize that we have a $31.5 trillion debt that's not getting any smaller. and right now, we said we're writing checks our children can't cash. we have a responsibility to say this debt in the last two decades has grown over $25 trillion. it's just wrong. we have to sooner or later. and this is a time that it seems like the high theatrics can go on, but 2011 didn't work out

well for anybody. and a lot of people were harmed and we shouldn't go through that again. but there should be conversations going on communication, as to how we're going to basically start addressing this debt. >> you met privately with speaker kevin mccarthy. the president said there that the republicans want to cut social security and medicare. is that what he told you? >> not at all, no. i understand from the democratic party, where they would be coming from and saying, that's the thing that gets people scared. in west virginia, i have 60% of my elderly retired people that all they have is social security and medicare. and i just told kevin, i said, kevin, you and i both know, that's not going to happen. take that off table. that should be the holy grail. the people that are receiving their benefits now are going to continue to receive them and we're going to do everything we can to solidify it. what we should be doing is in the long-term, how do you solidify it so no one has to worry that has paid into it and earned it. he said, fine, i agree with that. >> so he said, social security and medicare cuts are off the able. >> people that are receiving social security and medicare

should not be scared if they're going to lose that or get cut. what can happen if we don't address the debt, there are automatic cuts that would happen to both if they become deficient. and they're shown to run out of money or basically be drastically harmed financially here fairly soon, five, six, seven, eight years from now. >> but did he commit to you that he would not touch those? >> those two, yes. he said, yes, he has no intention of doing that. he might have his other -- he's speaking on behalf of himself. i have no intention of basically going after or cutting social security and medicare as people are receiving it now. >> did he say what is on the chopping block? what they are considering? >> kempb and i had a good conversation. i said, kevin, what we should be looking at is, do we have any areas? let's look at discretionary and non-discretionary funds have increased rapidly in the last few years. are there things there that basically we could or is there any way that someone could say, can you at least cut a penny out of every dollar that we spend or maybe three pennies out of every dollar? i don't know. with any of this, there has to

be some restraint. but you at least ought to converse about it. but just start accusing people, they're going to say, you'll cut here, here, here. and if i'm trying to make you look as scary as i can on the other side, saying, you better stick with me, because they're going to do this and this to you, how would i know that unless i speculate and say i pick the most popular things. i don't believe that. and i truly believe, with all of my heart, that if the president and chuck schumer and kevin mccarthy and they all set down, then you can find out what the true intent is. right now, speculation isn't doing anything but raising everyone's anxiety, if you will. >> you think it's time for president biden to invite kevin mccarthy to the white house? >> president biden is reasonable. you can sit down and work things out. i don't know why they're saying, we're not going to come over and talk have and conversation, but we're not going to negotiate. have a good conversation.

do we all think that the $31.5 trillion is out of control and more than what we should be carrying right now? we have the ability to correct this. but the further it grows and the larger it grows, the harder it becomes. then you have the debt payment. you know, for ten years, the debt was around zero. the interest rate was around zero, from the feds. now as interest rates are growing, we're going to have a challenge to where very shortly, we'll be paying more to service, we'll be paying more to service the debt that our countries carry than we will to defend our country. >> do you think in the end, the white house will begin negotiating with republicans? >> i just think that joe biden understands how this place works, okay? and everybody says, in 2011, he was the one that came over and made the deal to put us back -- put the government back where it was. >> he was vice president. >> he was vice president. and a lot of democrats got mad because at that time, they were not willing to sit down, i guess, and try to work things out. and vice president biden at that time came over and started

working with mitch mcconnell and came up with an agreement and we moved on. the government opened back up. that damaged everybody and the average consumers and the average constituents and the average americans got hurt the most. >> on the classified documents, the president has said that he has no regrets about how they've handled that since then. they said that you do believe that he should have a lot of regrets about how it's handled? >> sure, you should have regrets on that. however it happened. i don't think anything was intentional. and now we're finding out, who had access, the top eight in this -- in our government that get classified information a little differently than the rest of us. we usually go down in a scif. and all of the senators and congresspeople have to go into that scif. and there is no way in the world that we're able to take that out of that scif, which is a secured area. now, president, vice president, and those are having them delivered to them, whether it be at the white house or their office. there has to be better checks and balances on this. but now we find that vice

president pence, both of our presidents, former president trump and now president, everybody should have regrets, because it can get into the wrong hands. and classified documents are truly classified. top-secret is absolutely top secret and something that could harm our, could harm the defense of our country and basically the people who were able to get the information that we need to make sure that we're defending our country properly. >> the president has said that he takes classified documents seriously, but does it seem that way to you? >> it seems that basically we have no checks and balances when it comes to that level, okay? and how that would have happened. i know he takes it seriously when he reads them. he gets briefed every morning and basically he's been involved for so many years, that he's been at the scif as much as we have been at the scif, seeing what goes on. they always say, are you clean when you go in? take all the electronics off. when you go out, they say, are you clean? >> it's a different standard than applies to you and other senators than applies to others.

>> there's eight. you have the splintelligence committee, the speaker, the minority and the majority leader, so you have the eight and the president and the vice president. and they're exposed a little differently, yes. >> are you worried that this casts a cloud over the expected 2024 announcement from president biden? >> well, every day something new comes out and somebody else has got -- they're fining him. i think what they ought to do is find out how this happened. how would this ever happen? would boxed up the materials? who would have the same materials when i clear my office out, papers i have and certain papers in certain areas. but who would ever have secured, classified documents in the same area as your general corres correspondences would be. >> so it casts a cloud over? >> it casts a cloud over the whole process, saying that one person is more guilty than the other. i think the smart thing that was done here is merrick garland is special counsel. let the special counsel do their job. and i think they will do a very

good job, very thorough job, but hopefully, give us a remedy of how we can prevent this from ever happening again. >> you tried to pass a measure yesterday blocking some electric vehicles from getting a $7,500 tax credit, if they don't meet the new requirements that are part of the i.r.a. that was passed last fall. senator debbie stabenow blocked that measure, thwarted that measure. what are you going to do next to try to prevent that from happening? >> basically, the treasury department and janet yellen have had a conversation. we just totally disagree on how she's basically rolling out and allowing -- she's picking choosing. they're picking and choosing to say, okay, before -- if we did nothing on this bill, if there was never an i.r.a. bill, then not one manufacturer of cars in the united states of america, ford, general motors, or toyota, would be able to get any credits. would be able to give any discounts, because they had already hit their cap of 200,000 cars. and that was over. this new proposal that we have,

we just said, we're not going to be beholding on all of our dependency on china to produce the batteries that these cars run on. and right now, they have a lock on them, about 80% of the market tide up. so we've got to get back into the game, if you want to have a transportation mode that's not dependent on foreign supply chains. so, if you basically secure the rare earth minerals from north america or our countries that we have a free trade agreement with, so we're not being held hostage, that gets $3750. if you manufacture the batteries in north america, that's another $3750. if you want manufacturing to come back to the united states, then you better be able to have a supply chain you can depend on. all of a sudden, they come out and say, well, we don't have the rules and regulars done and the law was very clear in july when the president signed it, by december 31st, you have to have it. she's not in compliance. but they picked and kooz. they say, we'll continue to give you $7,500 if you're within the range of the cars or the range

of your income. i said, janet, you can't pick and choose. get the rules and regulations. and debbie and i just have a fundamental disagreement. >> we'll see what you do next on that. i want to talk to you about 2024 before you go. are you going to be backing senator kyrsten sinema if she runs -- >> absolutely. she deserves to be backed. she deserves to have the support of all of us. >> you have to have people in the middle. if you don't have a middle, you don't have america. this is all about bringing americans together. you've got to find people that are willing to take a voe against their party. against basically the pressures of a party movement. whether it be democrat or republican. and we find very few people that are willing to say, listen, this doesn't make sense. i'm going to go home and i'm going to vote for this and go home and explain it. >> have you made a decision about running in 2024? >> i have not. >> if you run, will there be a "d" next to your name? >> i haven't made any decision on anything because i'm not in a hurry to do that. >> some people say that a presidential run could be -- >> i want to make sure whatever

i do, i'm able to bring this country together. it's americans together and that's what we should be doing. americans want to be united and the politics of america right today is basically dividing people. they're making you pick a side. which side are you on? you should be on one side, the american side. not a democrat side better than a republican or a republican better than a democrat. but the side of america. >> senator joe manchin, thank you for your time this morning. >> thank you, kaitlan. >> you heard senator joe manchin there weighing in, of course, back in memphis. we are covering what's happening there on the ground. we are waiting for the release of the video. we are expecting it later today, showing five memphis officers, the beating of tyre nichols, as you heard don speaking with his family. those five officers have been indicted on murder and kidnapping charges. donna's going to speak to the attorney representing one of those officers. that's next. wish i would have id the fresh food a lot sooner. after farmer's dog she's a mumuch healthier weigh. she's a lot more active. and she's able to join us on our adventures. get started at longlivedogs.com

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reckless driving. just last hour, the memphis police chief told me that she has not seen any evidence to substantiate that claim. >> we've looked at cameras, we've looked at body-worn cameras, and even if something so occurred prior to this stop, we've been unable to substantiate that at this time. >> you haven't been able to substantiate a reckless -- >> the reckless driving. >> at all? >> no, we have not been able stto substantiate the reckless driving. >> and that's why he was supposably stopped? >> we've taken a look to determine what that probable cause was and we have not been able to substantiate that. it doesn't mean that something -- something didn't happen, but there is no proof. >> cnn has learned of the five officers who were indicted, only one remains in jail. the other four were released on bond. desmond mills jr. is one of those four officers posting his $250,000 bond last night and he

is back home now with his family. so speaking of that officer, i'm joined now by the attorney for desmond mills jr., blake ballen. blake, thank you so much for joining us. i really appreciate it. the police chief in an interview just a short while ago said that there is no evidence to substantiate the claim of reckless driving. they haven't found any evidence in video or otherwise. >> right. >> what's your reaction to that? >> that proof is in the pugd. . i need to see it. i haven't seen the video we're all waiting to see. i haven't seen anything about the stop from a defense standpoint. this is the beginning stages of things and we are looking forward to seeing what what evi they have. >> the officers had a duty of care, it was said by the police chief that they did not follow the memphis police department's guidelines for duty of care, this he did not render care, obviously there is also the kidnapping charge as well. how do you respond to that? >> well, specifically focused on

that kidnapping charge, of course, having not seen this video, it's difficult for me to talk about the facts, but to say that, you know, an officer who crosses a line or does something illegal in detaining somebody has committed an aggravated kidnapping is a dangerous precedent to set. >> why do you say that? >> well, every time a fourth amendment violation occurs, every time somebody claims they have been wrongfully arrested by a police officer, whether an egregious violation or a slight one, are officers now looking at being charged with an a, felony, looking up to 25 years in jail. it will make it difficult for officers to do their jobs. >> there is the attempted murder charge dr or the murder charge, second-degree murder charge. do you believe that that is an overcharge and difficult to prove? why? >> that requires that they prove that mr. mills acted with a reasonable degree of certainty with regard to his actions. that his actions were certain to cause death, and that's just simply not the case.

when this video comes out i expect that mr. mills will not be delivering blows that caused death. >> why do you believe that? >> because i've sat down with mr. mills, i've looked him in the eye, i know the kind of person he is. i have talked with other people who have seen the video and i just don't believe that mr. mills is capable of committing that act. >> what did he tell you about the confrontation? >> i cannot tell you what my client has told me. >> can you give us an indication of -- you're saying that you don't believe that he delivered blows so obviously in your conversations he told you i did not deliver blows? >> he is not the only person i have talked to, don. >> okay. you've talked to others and what did they say? >> i've talked to others and the levels of culpability amongst these five officers are different and i expect that you're going to see in this video that my client, desmond mills, is not, in fact, guilty of the crimes he has been charged with. >> then why wouldn't he render aid if there were other people who were culpable? go on. sorry. >> there are circumstances we

don't know about yesterday, whether mr. mills was injured, there's pepper spray flying in the air. what he was doing while others were acting in an unlawful way, until i see that video i can't say. >> speaking to the father of tyre nichols, he said there's videotape, the tape shows that tyre was propped up against a wall, handcuffed, that he is slumped over, the officers lift him back up and says, you know, some expletives about sit up or get up. if he's sitting there, why officers couldn't just try to get him to a hospital to get aid to him, to the paramedics? >> i haven't seen any of this. when i do i can comment on it. for now i just -- i cannot answer that without having seen this video. >> the reason that you believe that there's different levels of culpability is because of the amount of bail, is that what you believe? >> that's part of it. part of it is just my discussions with my client, with

the district attorney, with the u.s. attorney. i mean, i've been in constant contact with the prosecutors here. while i haven't seen the video i know a little bit about what's going on here and i expect there's going to be different levels of action here and so i caution everyone to look at this with an open mind and to treat each of these officers as individuals. >> as you know under these circumstances when you have someone who has died and then you have the -- everyone involved, most people involved saying, listen, the videotape is damning, it's going to be hard to get some level of sympathy or empathy for your client. you have been saying that you have spoken to his family members about the history and who officer mills is as a person and was as an officer. >> let me say this first, that my heart goes out to the nichols family. as a defense lawyer this is an interesting case for me. i have dedicated my professional life to fighting against injustice in the system, to fighting against a system where

there's systemic racism for centuries and to now find myself representing somebody who is a part of that system is an interesting position to be in, but i want to remind everybody that just because mr. mills was a part of that system doesn't mean that he can't also be a victim of it. and so it's my job to protect him and to protect his rights, and i'm doing that not only because i believe in the system, but because i believe in mr. mills. i have talked to his family, i've talked to his father, i've looked him in the eye and i have earned the kind of person desmond mills is. he is a good man. there are plenty of bad officers out there, there are plenty of good ones. the vast majority are good, and i believe desmond mills is a good person. >> why do you say he is a victim of the system? >> i'm saying he could be a victim of the system. that just because he is an officer, a former officer, because he is part of the system that i as a defense lawyer spend

my career fighting against doesn't mean that now that he is on the other side that he couldn't also become a victim of that. so that's why i and all the other lawyers here are going to vigorously defend our clients. >> is he remorseful? >> you know, he is remorseful that he is attached to anything like this. that he is involved or connected to the death of somebody whose life should not have been taken. that is devastating to him. >> he must be remorseful that there is someone who died. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> thank you, blake balin, appreciate you joining us. thank you so much. kaitlan, as i wrap it up here in memphis at least for the purposes of our show, i know that you have been speaking to lawmakers and listening to the interview from the police chief saying that they need help from washington, they need help from the pouresident of the united states, they want to get the

george floyd justice act passed, the mother of tyre nichols, the father of tyre nichols, benjamin crump the family attorney says this needs to be a blueprint on how to move forward on these cases, there needs to be better training and laws need to be changed that that has to come from lawmakers. >> i was sitting with senator manchin while you were interviewing his family and parents and the attorney there and it was hard to listen to. listening to his mom talk about what she's going to miss about him and the fact that she told you she will never be able to cook dinner for him, never be able to hug him, she will miss his smile. we were talking about the pain that that family is feeling and what the potential reaction is going to be to this video. senator manchin was talking about training for officers and what that needs to look like. you are right, we are hearing these calls from a lot of these officials about what needs to happen here in washington, how they believe that needs to change, but it is remarkable to see the interviews that you've done this morning with the police chief, with the family,

talking about what the reaction in that community looks like. >> well, kaitlan, we are both southerners, from neighboring states, we are rivals when it comes to colleges, but there is a familiarity with southern families. you and i talk about cooking, i told you my mom was in town and i was gaining weight because she was cooking red beans and rice. it became relatable to me when she said i will no longer be able to cook for my son. these are human beings, they're families, they're just like you, just like me and just like the folks who are watching. so i hope that our viewers take away the humanity in all of this and realize that there are -- no one is perfect as the mother has been saying. the officers obviously aren't perfect and the people who come in contact with police officers. and we need to figure out how we can bridge the gap between the two so that a routine traffic stop does not lead to death. >> yeah, a horrific death. don, i'm really glad you are on

the ground there covering this, speaking to their family about that. it's really important. i'm kaitlan collins in washington, don is in memphis. cnn's special coverage of this is going to continue right now. and effortlessly responds to both of you. our smart sleepepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night. proven quality sleep. only from sleep number.. all across the country, people are working hard to build a better future. so we're hard at work helping them achieve financial frdom. we're proudo serve people everywhere, in investing for the retirement they envision. from the plains to the coas, we help americans invest for thr future. and help communities thrive.

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