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well, good evening everyone, i'm laura coats and this is cnn tonight. two additional members police officers have not been relieved of duty in the wake of the killing of tyre nichols. we are learning officer preston hemphill who, according to memphis police, quote, participated in the initial traffic stop and the use of a taser, unquote. and another officer who hasn't yet been named. while they both have been relieved of their duty. and three memphis fire department personnel have also been fired over the response to tyre nichols beating seen.

and that is in addition, everyone, to five police officers who have already been not only relieved of their duties, as unfired. but also charged. the da saying, quote, this is an ongoing investigation. we are looking at all individuals involved in the events leading up to, during, and after the beating of tyre nichols. in a moment, we will do a deep dive into this case. the evidence and what it will take to actually prosecute this case. but as a family and a community and a nation more in. the funeral for tyre nichols is now set for this coming wednesday. a funeral for a 29 year old stopped by police and later beaten beyond recognition. just a mere 80 yards from his own home. calling for his mother. the whole thing caught on videos that are still heartbreaking to watch. >> [inaudible] >> i am not going to sit here and pretend that every time i

hear those videos, every part of me does not flinch. and my stomach does not turn. and i don't think of my own a son. and everyone else's sons. and all of the mothers who heart ache because of what you are hearing. in those videos they haunt anybody who has watched them. and a question aside from the legality, aside from the illegality, aside from all of the contours and trying to pick it apart as prosecutors. in the court of public opinion, in the court of law, i have been wondering a lot about what we do with our horror and what we do with the pain? and what does seeing this over and over and over again, not just in this case but so many others, what does this do to our psyches?

and our society? when we have an inability to compartmentalized and a refusal to do so at that. we will dive deeper into that in a little bit. i want to bring in memphis city councilman jay b smiley junior. as well, councilman, thank you for being here this evening. you know, for so many people who have watched this and watched different parts of this video over and over again, one of the things people are pointing out are the number of other officers who were on the scene. we know that five have been charged. others were relieved of their duty. first of all, i am not sure if that is supposed to be meeting fire, does that mean administrative leave, dismissed, and they are receiving pay?

does that mean there is investigation? do you have a sense of what this relieved of duty phrase really means there? >> well relieved of duty essentially means in the city of memphis that the individual is no longer working for the department. but it does not mean fired. the administrative process has to take place in order for the individual to be fired. the administrative process is not concluded yet. >> you are saying because of course that is one of the things that people were honing in on with the five officers who were fired pretty quickly. but charged, indicted obviously. there is a distinction now in terms of the other, one, we don't know a name. to, --

do you think we will see charges for additional officers more broadly or even the personnel, the medical personnel who were on scene as the emts and fire department and failed to provide allegedly adequate service? >> well for me i think every officer and every law enforcement officer, every emt, and every individual who showed up on scene should be immediately terminated. but just because they violate the policy, that does not necessarily mean criminal culpability. and it's up to the prosecutor and the district attorney to side. but as it relates to changing the sense of culture, i think it is necessary in order to

move forward as a community that every individual showed up to the state. mr. him field especially. >> mr. hemphill, he was i believe on the officers who was initially involved in the traffic stop and the tasing incident i believe. he made the comment if i'm not mistaken about, hoping that this young man would be stormed in some way. i am wondering particularly with him, tell me why you feel he in particular ought to face accountability? >> i think when you look at it, what the entire world is saying, they talk about, it is not just black police officers against black individuals. it is not just white police officers against white or black individuals. it is the culture. it is blue versus black and brown people. it is blue versus poor people. and if you want to drive a culture that says that excessive force is commonplace. says abuse of power is accepted. you have to start with the root cause.

the root cause is the mentality that you can do whatever you want to and there is no consequences. and mr. hemphill's comments about stomping mr. nichols to the ground is the first problem. you have to drive it out by setting an example. >> you know, frankly for a number of people who were on the scene to your larger point anyone could be the poster child of what never to do and hope to never do in a civilized society let alone those who wear the uniform and profess to be peace officers. i do wonder, though, one of the reports we often hear when we

are talking about officer involved deadly encounters, is that there are questions about not only police morale and recruiting. but also the safety of a community if officers tend to have some sort of a backlash or retaliate through inaction down the line. do you see anything like this happening in memphis right now? where officers, as a, culture as community of a force, are somehow approaching this as hands off and not wanting to do the work. >> not at all, but i think we look at it in a greater context. i think there is a nationwide shortage of police officers already. but the officers that we do have, they take their job very seriously. they are not taking a hands off approach. they are taking an approach that this is my job and i will attempt to fulfill my duties every single day. i think this is a non issue. and miss direction. >> i certainly hope it is. and i certainly hope as we look to the funeral this coming wednesday of tyre nichols, what will it mean to the community of memphis, the nation more broadly that this man will have his funeral at the age of 29 and inexplicably as to why his life was lost. >> i think it is heartbreaking for our community. heartbreaking for the entire nation to have this conversation and watch what transpired with mr. nichols on film. but we have been having this conversation for several years now. it didn't start with just eric brown or philando castillo. now it is mr. nichols. i think as a nation we have to understand that at some point we have to accept the fact that it is the entire system. the entire system needs to be changed. we have to shift from a culture

of accepting excessive force, but to going into these police departments and making culture changing decisions. >> really important point, councilman, thank you so much, i appreciate your time this evening. >> thank you for the opportunity. you know, the idea of never again to once again. here we are. five fired memphis police department officers have each been charged with second degree murder and some are questioning whether prosecutors can make that charge stick. while shelby counties da, stephen mulroy, he is bringing these charges and saying this about it. >> under tennessee law, in order for one to prove there is a knowing killing, the only thing one must prove is that one acted with a course of conduct whereas the defendant was reasonably certain that death may result. and we believe that all the evidence taken together will show that, and we are confident that we have a strong case. >> well the da is confident in this case, let's take a closer look at why that might be. what evidence he has so far through the eyes of what we have all seen publicly available information. of course, everything we are seeing certainly is not going to be the totality of what the prosecutors are going to be looking at. and the investigation continues. but i am joined now by defense attorney and former federal prosecutor chamois.

an attorney and legal affairs commentator, areva martin. i am glad that both of you are here because i really want to walk through and unpack a little bit about the second degree charge. he used the word knowing. but there are certain moments that i want to pick out from the video that really, i think, demonstrated in part, i will bring in youshan, let's break this down. there is first this horrible scene where you see him being punched while he is restrained by officers. and i don't mean restrained in the sense that he is fighting back. but his arms clearly are being held. he has no opportunity to defend himself. he is holding his feet and miraculously standing up. but enduring something incredibly violent here. and now shan, when you look at this moment and think about the second degree charge. about knowing behavior. knowing that the behavior or the culmination of it could

lead to something deadly. what do you see? >> i am really focusing on that restraint aspect. that his hands are tied behind him. he is defenseless. he can't even hold up his hands to protect his head. and i think in that instance, when you are an b person much as a police officer, you have someone who is helpless and you are teeing off and hitting them like that, i think tha t supplies the knowing part of. that is going to be a very serious injury no matter who it is. >> on that, point we so often think about officers being able

to talk about the use of force. but it is essentially the amount of necessary force to repel a lethal force or some force against you. in other words, self-defense. when you look at that and see that this person, tyree nichols is in no way striking back, in any way shape or form. what does that say to you about culpability for trying to pursue a charge where there is no use of force or self-defense? >> it says to me, laura, the prosecution has a very strong case. in addition to the, you know, the beating that we saw that shannon just talked about that happened well mr. nichols hands venus back and he was defenseless. to me what was so telling about the charge of the knowing killing is when he is on the ground. and they start kicking him in the head. police officers know that when you use your foot and you kick someone in the head they know how deadly those kinds of, you know, that kind of contact can be for any individual. and they don't just kick him once, laura, they kicked him multiple times in the head. these officers also knew that

mr. nichols, we haven't talked about this a great deal. he only weighed about 145 pounds. i mean, he was a tall very thin man. so i have a son who and i was having this conversation with my husband who weighs about that amount. he says even just the slight push on our son causes him to fall backwards. so we were just thinking about what was happening to mr. nichols body to have these five men all of whom are much bigger than him use their body weight to pin him and punch him. to restrain him and then to kick him in the head as he lay defensively defenseless lee on the ground. so i don't think these defendants, laura, are gonna make any argument. i think they're gonna be rushing to see who can tell on the other person who can try to get a deal with the prosecutors. this is not a case they want to have tried before a jury. >> you know, interestingly enough i was talking to shannon

about this before we came on today about the idea of what happens next and some people would think as to your very point, areva, why take it to trial? why would one do this? if you think about looking for a co-operator. if you are a prosecutor what do i need you as a cooperator, for i have videotapes? what is my incentive to try to give you a plea other than, of course, to secure that conviction and not take the chance because we all know juries perhaps they can have a different thought process than what the evidence at times shows. but i want to play these two clips back to back and they are very difficult for me i'm sure they are for both of you as well we are all parents.

thinking about what this means. there is the first one i'm gonna play for you is him calling out for his mother. we have heard this repeatedly. frankly it brings tears to my eyes every time i hear the gut-wrenching cry for his mother. and i hope to god she never hears this video for that reason. the second one is when he is no longer able to speak clearly. but he just makes sounds that are emitting out of his body. listen. [inaudible] >> i played those two because, shannon, there is obviously physical injury to him. there is obviously a change between him being able to enunciate and speak. two sounds of pain ande and spe. two sounds of pain and extraordinary just injury coming from his body. when you look at that not as the parents, not as the fistful reaction as a human being. but as a prosecutor. what does that tell you? >> well it is very strong evidence for the knowing part.

this person is already very injured. you know, from a defensive or something like that. they can argue those things or their counsel will try with that testimony. but the problem for them goes back to the fact that there is no evidence of him resisting. there is no reason that you need to continue to apply force to him. and that is part of the problem for them. but they can certainly put arguments like, oh, i am not a doctor, i didn't know his condition was deteriorating. but i think for the jury that's gonna be devastating evidence against these defendants. because you can see the terrible downhill decline right in front of your eyes. >> you really can. don't worry, stick around, revil will bring you back in the conversation as well in just a moment. just to reiterate that point. i mean, remember part of what they have said, the da, part of the firing as well from the memphis police chief was the failure to intervene and the failure to render aid and what the duty was owed to somebody in their custody at this point. remember, custody, not free to leave. this is a criminal case, everyone, that will be decided in a court of law. but of course the brutality that was unleashed on tyre nichols and captured in these videos, it is extremely hard to watch. and i am wondering what these videos, videos like these are doing to our mental health. and frankly, how do we talk about what is happened? we will go there next.

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by now, frankly, millions of americans have watched the video of memphis police officers beating fatally baiting tyre nichols. now, for many of us it is our way of perhaps bearing witness. but videos like that, they are so hard to watch. and i know, i don't have to tell you this.

they take a toll. and it is an extraordinary one. i want to talk about it now with cnn political commentator scott jennings. former white house director near hawk, and doctor jeff gardere. a clinical and forensic psychologist. doctor gardere, i want to begin with you here. because selfishly i mean, you know, with the work that i do in the work that we all are really a part of, you know , we

are required to obviously convey and inform and illuminate. and it requires a level of compartmentalizing. but there are far too many moments in between me being on this camera where it is difficult to reconcile what we are seeing. and it is haunting. and i wonder, how do you advise people of how to deal with this? >> well, first of no, 2018 study showed that when we are watching these very violent videos of people being attacked real life, that it can have an effect on us. ptsd. acute stress disorder. insomnia, anxiety. reliving that nightmare that we have seen over and over again. so it does affect us. you don't have to be right there when it is happening. watching it on video affects all of us. we have seen it with broadcast journalists, laura, you are talking about what you have been experiencing watching this video over and over again. seeing this happen over and over again. so i think it is really

important that you, journalists, but all of us debrief when we see these particular horrific things. that we lean on people who get it, people who can understand this when we talk about what that pain feels like. what that anger feels like but it is also important to share with people who have hope. and who can give some insight as to how we can do better and recapture our humanity. >> it is an important point, thinking about just, you know, tyre nichols on mother. she has said that she refuses to watch what has happened. and, god, i understand why. but there is something to be said and i wonder if you can speak to the idea of people who are saying, i am choosing not to watch it. i cannot. i cannot. and there is always this debate, perhaps, internally, perhaps decidely about a responsibility to stay informed and to see what is happening. and also the grace to give oneself to say that i cannot. >> yes, and i absolutely respect people who say that they cannot watch this. perhaps they have already been traumatized by watching these other cases of police brutality, mass shootings, gun violence before. and they can't do it any longer. you have to know what your limits are. certainly we don't want children to see this. but also understand that those are of us who have to watch it. you have to watch, at your

guests who are here have had to watch it. i have had to watch it. hopefully there are enough people in society who have to watch this so that we can be reminded that this is a continuing issue. with regards to systemic and maybe even overt racism. and how it hurts black and brown people. so we have to be witnessing to this. but certainly those who cannot watch, it we have to respect that. and there is also other ways to learn about this without having to watch the videos. we can read about what has happened. which may be a little bit less traumatic. >> let me bring into parents and friends of mine who are on the set as well. i neera hut and scott jennings. you know, we have all children. varying ages. scott has like 30 children. you and i have to. but thinking about this. have you let your kids see this? i mean, do you have these

conversations. yours are awfully young. >> six and two. and so they are just coming into their awareness of the world. and they are black children and so they are just starting to understand what that history means for them. and their role in society. so my eldest at six is still understanding that at some point in time not in the distant past people have his skin color were enslaved by other people. so we have talked about martin luther king, we have talked about power and what that means. but he still trusts police. and society. and authority. to take care of him. i need him to be able to go to a police officer if somebody is following him home from kindergarten and feel comfortable running to police officers and trusting that. so i don't want to violate the

trust. but i do at some point want him to have an awareness that his childhood understanding of fair and unfair and what it means to have power and what violence means, it only continues and expands in society in all of these ways. so i am not trying to deny him that information, i don't want him to have his head in the sand as he grows older. but you can have a awareness and still not avoid the topic. >> scott? >> yeah, friday night when the video came out my nine year old and i were out together. we had gotten in the car and when we turned on the carson was on.

and so we couldn't see but we could hear the audio, the audio was playing. , like some of the worst of it. so in that split second moment i had to decide, like, what to tell him. because he said, what is happening? it was shocking. so ended up just, saying okay, let me just tell you what happened and we talked through the news of it. and he had some questions. and it was, you know, we are in the question car for 25 minutes or. so we have what i think was a good conversation about it. he is nine and he follows the news. you know, he is paying attention to the world. i assumption was that he was gonna hear about anyways. so i wanted to talk to him about what i thought, what, you know, i knew at the time. and what was happening. it ended up being a good conversation but i will be

honest, i am worried that he heard the audio and if it is like on his mind. and to your point, you know, you want your children to believe that if something is happening to them the authority figures that they can turn to, you don't want them to mistrust all of the authority figures that might be in our society or in their life if something, if they witnessed something happening or something is happening to them. so it is worrisome. and i have second guess myself since it happened, should i have even, like, it is an old story. should i have basically told him not to worry about. it >> i am so glad we are talking about this and hearing is that not only did you choose the path of awareness, without showing him graphic video. but that this is the type of conversation another generation of young white people need to have that i now am tapping into a history of black families having to have a different type of conversation with their black sons about driving. so the video and audio painful and awful as it is is showing all of us collectively as a society that all of these stories have been true. it is still happening. we were talking about in our younger years being made aware of rodney king and that video. that 30 years ago. and now i am going to have a

similar conversation with my son at some point. and i don't know that i can tell him what has changed in this process. >> really important. my children have not seen it but, man, the added dimension of talking about these being black officers. i am not sure how their little minds are reconciling what they have learned about race in america. and what they learned about power in this country. so we are gonna keep this conversation going. there are also very big developments in two cases. two legal cases, perhaps far more comfortable to tell our children about. which is quite telling. they involve former president trump. and they both involve testimony before grand jury's. we will explain next. all across the country, people are working hard to build a better future. so we're hard at work, helping them achieve financial freedom. we're investing for our clients in the projects that power our economy. from the plains to the coasts, we help americans invest for their future. and help communities thrive.

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first on cnn, we are learning tonight that two people hired to search former president trump's properties for classified documents have testified before a federal grand jury. the two found classified

material inside of a florida storage facility. and a source telling cnn that they testified for about, well, three hours each. that as the new york times is reporting that the manhattan da has begun presenting evidence to a grand jury about the former presidents role in paying hush money to stormy daniels in 2016. here now to discuss is cnn political imitator scott jennings, former obama white house director in iraq, and defense attorney and former prosecutor jeanne lieu is back with us as well. i begin with you, jeanne, the idea of the grand jury being -- talking about these two issues. is there one that sticks out in your mind as creating a greater legal peril. >> oh absolutely, which two are we talking about? >> one of the ones we are talking about. point taken. >> i would say that, well, to me, it is a little bit of a

frustrating exercise that the stormy daniels issue is just surfacing now after seven years later. i mean from other reporting it looks like the justice department of barr meddled in that. i frankly feel alvin bragg should have continued to pursue the other trump charges. since the former da as well as his criminal prosecutors and those close to the case felt that he should. but he seems more emboldened now to do that. and i think it is a very simple case. and i don't know what the holdup would be. so i think if he chooses to go forward on the hush money case, that should be a pretty easy conviction to secure. >> the irony of this is that a president a, former president trump is coming off of a weekend of campaign events, reminiscent a johnny 16. and i am, like okay, of course jamie daniels is back in the news. good for her for getting another ten minutes of the public eye out of this. but it is that idea that what is old is new again. it hasn't changed. some of the messaging was still the same as last weekend to. trump is still angry and now there is a possibility of the affair and hush money and

adjust it hasn't changed. and we are all tired. >> hasn't changed, what? the approach of republicans towards him? or the idea of -- >> that this is even part of a conversation, like, six or seven years later we are still having a similar conversation. it is déjà vu. and these cases were not resolved. right? so we may have resolved it emotionally and politically of trying to move on. but the legal system as you said, whether it is interference or just the slow wheel of justice, it is bringing all this back right at this political moment where we are considering what the future of our country should look like. >> michael cohen might think it is a faster wheel of justice on these three issues. right, he was convicted similarly in this situation. but your point not lost in the idea of, you have a lot of people who were thinking of all of the things that donald, trump the former president had coming at him. that it would either the incentivize him for running. it would discourage. him if illuminate him from the ranks. but no one seems to be essentially putting the nail in the political coffin to do anything productive to have that happen. >> well i think desantis, governor of florida appears to me like he is going to run.

and of all of the possible opponents he is clearly and by far the strongest. i don't know exactly how these legal issues are going to affect trump's standing. but i know there are a lot of republicans out there who are ready to move on. they are just looking for the next lily pad. and desantis looks like a fair bet. on this stormy daniels business. a, i thought you said this segment with easier for us to talk with our children about. b, i think the idea -- >> it could, be i don't know what you talk to your kids about. i don't know what types of birds and bees come. up i don't know your situation. >> the idea that he would be indicted, because of all the things that i have been to this guy. that he has done it and it's going on. the idea that he would be indicted for this as opposed to overthrowing the u.s. government, trying. or whatever. to me it is so trivial. i am not saying, maybe he did, i don't know. but it just strikes me that the georgia case, serious case. the january 6th cases a serious, serious thing that we all were sort of horrified by. >> the documents, perhaps. >> this thing here, we haven't talked about stormy daniels in years. and now you are telling me the manhattan da's gonna say that

we got him now. on what? >> stormy daniels, it makes no sense. >> have you ever heard the phrase the straw that breaks the camels back. >> it's not gonna be this. this is gonna seem ridiculous to people when the other ones aren't. on the other ones aren't. >> it's easier to prove. so in terms of holding him accountable, slam dunk really easy to. proof >> for, what tell me, explain this to me. >> campaign finance violations. >> it's for a crime that has actually troubled other governments and other democratic countries. it is corruption, it is paying people off, bribery. and we have just lost perspective with, as you said, all of the other bad things that have happened that have been out there. that this does seem just trivial because it was not that long ago that we were upset and horrified when presidents just stepped out of their marriage let alone actually involved other endeavors. >> i have to tell, you i remember not too long ago reporting on how the manhattan da's office did not want a

particular book published because they wanted to have more information on ongoing investigation and we all thought, what is the ongoing investigation? why not? well, i guess we are learning more information now about that tonight. but see, scott, that was easier to talk about with your kids. i don't know. >> what's stormy daniels? >> i don't want to be in your house tonight that is all i'm saying about that. but she is a noted director, thank you very much. a car plunging some 250 feet off of a cliff on the california coast. and all four family members survived. but prosecutors allege that the driver did it on purpose. and now he is charged with attempted murder of his wife and his two children. that story is next.

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well tonight a california man is facing three counts of attempted murder. prosecutors allege that 41 year old darn mash patel, intentionally drove his wife and two young children off a 230 -- 50 foot clip on a stress -- an astonishingly everyone in the car survived. for more on the story i'm joined now by cnn correspondent veronica miracle. veronica, what is the latest you are learning tonight about what is really a truly shocking case? >> it is very disturbing, laura, and the district attorney says they in fact have enough evidence to believe that there are much patel deliberately tried to kill his own wife and children when he drove hundreds of feet off of that cliff. when this first happened, first responders said it was nothing short of a miracle that all four family members survived.

and you can see in that video, it speaks for itself, the car is hardly recognizable. from russia patel was in court today and he has been charged with three counts of attempted murder. two of those counts and hands to with domestic violence charges. and when he was in court today, the san mateo county district attorney said they don't have enough evidence exactly, or excuse me. they currently at this point we're not able to share with us exactly what the motive was. but they were able to share with us exactly what that evidence was. take a listen. >> i would put it in a couple of categories about evidence there. number one would be, eyewitness testimony, the people who were driving behind him described him in good detail about the vehicles movement. the lack of brake lights, things of that nature. and then number two, on the tom lanto's tunnel, there is a, there are cameras on that. and so we have video showing the movement of the car as it went, after it left the tunnel, went up the hill.

went and turned off of the road. and then turned to go down the cliff. >> and patel just caught out of the hospital on friday and that is why he was in court today, laura? >> the da said that they haven't spoken with the suspect 's wife yet, veronica. i mean, what do we know about the condition of his family including his children? >> while the district attorney did tell us that the wife was seriously injured, but she has since been out of the hospital for a couple of weeks. the seven year old child also had injuries but is recovering. that four-year-old child incredibly was not injured. but the district attorney said that a couple of weeks ago, the wife's attorney contacted prosecutors and said and tell she is physically able to speak to investigators, she does not want to do any kind of interview. and so that still has not happened yet. laura? >> thank you so much, for annika, i want to bring in now chamois and also areva martin

is back with us. i mean, xi'an, the da is saying that this is being treated as a domestic violence case. how will that impact this investigation? >> well with domestic violence cases i think the testimony of the wife is going to be critical. obviously there is the children involved too. and it is a very delicate situation, as you know. you have to have a child introduced specialists. and as a prosecutor you don't really want to have those kids testify against their father. i was taken aback at some of the reporting i saw where the judge did not grant a full no-contact order against the defendant in this case. which i think is a very odd situation. but i think the wife's testimony will be really critical. and a lot of speculation about what is, as the da alluded to, you already have evidence without the motive. >> domestic violence cases can be so volatile, leading to what we have seen. here i just wonder, does it surprise you that they have not yet spoken to the wife forgotten her before a grand jury of some kind of

interviewed her yet? >> it really doesn't, laura, given the significance of this accident. or what she is saying, an intentional effort to kill her and her children. and there is some reporting now that she told the paramedics as they were taking her out of that car and lifting her off that cliff that it was intentional. so i think that statement that she apparently gave to those force responders is playing into the four prosecutors decision to charge the husband with -- domestic violence. i think basically, i think it is very logical for the prosecutor to wait until she is better. until she is recovered.

until she is able to give a full statement. such a tragic case. but we know all too often, women die as a result of domestic violence. we have seen these cases before. and this case, if it wasn't intentional act on the part of this husband, it would have been an attempt at a murder suicide. because he too would have died if his plan, again, if it wasn't intentional plan. if his plan had been carried out. because people don't recover from going off a cliff 250 feet, the way this car -- >> thank god, thank god they all survived. i mean, the idea of a four -year-old and a seven year old and just, i mean, thinking about what that must be for them trying to process it, let alone the wife. we look to continue to cover this really important case. thank you both. >> thanks. >> well, there is freezing rain. and snow impacting a huge swath of our country. with winter weather advisories

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beating of tyre nichols. the memphis fire department firing three employees, they e.u. saying the medics and driver failed to properly assess nichols when they arrived on the scene, coming as officials confirm that two more memphis police officers were also relieved of duty, that's the phrase they've used. on top of the five other officers who were fired and charged with second degree murder among other crimes into nichols death, we'll bring in the form he have head of intelligence for the dc home land security me, i'll begin with you, den nel because there's a new york times analysis i was particularly interested in it found that th