tv The 2000s CNN February 4, 2023 11:00pm-12:00am PST
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viewers watching in the united states and all around the world. i'm laila harruck. a single shot from a u.s. fighter jet bringing down a suspected chinese spy balloon off the carolina coast, capping off a days long ordeal that has captivated the american public, and adding new strain to the already tense relationship between washington and beijing.
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we'll have much more on the suspected spy balloon in a moment, but first this breaking news just coming in. the man who led pakistan at the start of america's declared war on terror and the conflict in neighboring afghanistan has died. he died after a prolonged illness according to a statement from pakistan's military. he was in dubai where he lived for several years in self-imposed exile. musharraf was 79 years old. you're now about to see and hear -- i think we're going to -- you're now about to see and hear the dramatic moment a u.s. sidewinder missile took out the suspected chinese spy balloon that caused such havoc
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last week. here it is. it happened saturday off the coast of south carolina near myrtle beach. the balloon was so high up at nearly 12 miles or 20 kilometers that it took a few seconds for the shock wave to reach the ground. china issued a stern protest afterward accusing the u.s. of overreacting. beijing insists it was a civilian research balloon that blew off course, but pentagon officials say they're confident it was conducting surveillance. at last report we're told salvage efforts are under way to retrieve the wreckage from the ocean bottom. the water in that area is only about 50 feet deep or 15 meters. well, cnn's oren leiberman explains what the u.s. plans to do with the balloon's remnants.
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>> reporter: what has been an effort to track this chinese surveillance balloon for days as it made its way across the united states and out over the ocean is now a recovery effort to bring up the wreckage of the chinese surveillance balloon and the payload it was carrying from the ocean floor, not all that deep according to the pentagon. a senior defense official said the wreckage landed in 47 feet of water, so relatively shallow there. and there were navy and coast guard assets on site to begin establishing a perimeter, and a salvage vessel on its way to start bringing up the wreckage here. it may be difficult to see what's left of that wreckage. it did fall from a height of 60,000 feet, so nearly 12 miles it impacted the water, that may very well have done serious damage to the technology onboard. that's what the pentagon and that's what the u.s. government will figure out. what condition is it in? and what is salvage? what can you learn from this? and what can you glean about the state of chinese technology and what they put on that surveillance balloon? that becomes the effort now.
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a senior defense official says they didn't just start now, though. over the course of the last several days the pentagon made an effort to make sure this chinese surveillance balloon couldn't gather as much information as they were looking for although they wouldn't detail exactly what those efforts entailed, instead they tried to flip the script monitoring the balloon constantly and trying to learn what they could about it as it traversed the united states. in terms of what went flue this beforehand, there were days of planning to figure out what best possible time to shoot this down. in fact, it was decided not to shoot it down over the continental united states because of the risk to people and property. instead that decision was made out over the water. the pentagon and northern command launched f22 from northern hampton, virginia. in the end it was a single f22 that fired a single a-wind sidewinder that in a dramatic video we saw pierces the
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balloon, one shot, one kill. breaking down and bringing down the surveillance balloon that we watched as it made its way across the u.s. the u.s. making it clear they found this unacceptable and considered a violation of the u.s. airspace and now we've seen the u.s. military's response. >> cnn's ivan watson is standing by in hong kong with the latest from there. vi viven, there were some strong words on friday. >> initially the chinese foreign ministry confirmed it was a chinese balloon but it was a research airship used primarily for meteorological use and that they regretted the fact it had been blown off course over the u.s. well, fast forward to today where the chinese foreign ministry is unhappy with the fact that u.s. fighter plane has now shot this down after it basically traveled diagonally
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across the u.s. here's a statement. quote, china expresses its strong dissatisfaction and protest against the u.s. use of force to attack unmanned civilian aircraft. the chinese side has repeatedly informed the u.s. side after verifies that the airship is for civilian use and entered the u.s. due to force majeure. it was completely an accident. now, one big question is what would china have done if a u.s. research airship was flying across the length of china? it's hard to imagine not seeing some kind of parallel perhaps use of force. but that's all speculation here. the fact is that u.s. officials are now saying this isn't the first time that what they're claiming is a chinese spy balloon has flown over the u.s. in fact, we've got u.s. officials telling cnn there were three such balloons that flew over the u.s. albeit it for
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shorter periods during the trump administration and at least one similar aircraft over the u.s. earlier in the biden administration. why is there so much of a scandal this time? well, perhaps because ordinary citizens could see it with the naked eye and film it and clearly see that it had giant solar panels and what u.s. officials are also saying are additional technology for surveillance as well. we're going to have a lot of questions and hopefully perhaps hear more from chinese government officials on monday, the first workday after the weekend. laila. >> and initially beijing was keen to put the incident behind it and turn the page, but it turns out it's not going to be as easy as that. >> no, it's not because this balloon shot down over the u.s. initially it had been tracked by canada going through canadian airspace. so it's a violation not only of
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u.s. airspace but also canadian airspace. and then there are reports of another suspect balloon that costa ricaen officials said they detected and the columbian air force says it has seen this. it put out a statement in spanish. we're starting to see images coming from latin america of this object in the air. and according to the columbians it was operating at an altitude of more than 55,000 feet. that's kind of roughly similar to the balloon we've seen over u.s. airspace. it has now moved out of columbian airspace, but they were monitoring it, and that raises more questions. we've reached out in writing to the chinese foreign ministry to ask about that, and this all comes down to the question again to the chinese -- why put these types of devices up into the air that then perhaps blow off course, according to the chinese
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narrative, carrying presumably expensive equipment as well? lots of questions that we'll be looking to the chinese government for some kind of answers. >> ivan watson reporting from hong kong. thank you so much. and we want to take you now to singapore to drew thompson, a former u.s. department of defense official who focus on china, taiwan, and mongolia. currently he's a senior visiting research fellow. thank you for joining us. this diplomatic break down how damaging do you think this incident has been, and what do you think the long-term impact will be? >> i think the impact is definitely not good, but it is limited in a way. it's not a sustained crisis. the balloon has been downed, so it actually has an end. and that opens the door for discussions and the two sides to move ahead. it's important to remember this isn't the first crisis in the relationship, and it's not going to be the last one.
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so it underscores the very deep levels of distrust. the u.s. doesn't believe what china says, but beijing has a long history of not believing what the u.s. says either. so neither side has credibility with the other, and i think that's the bigger, longer-term problem for the relationship. >> from what we understand from our reporting, this isn't the first time something like this happened. is this incident isolated or confined to the u.s., or do similar incidents also occur in the region where you are? >> these balloons are being spotted in other places. they've apparently happened in the past in india. remember this balloon left china to head westward or eastward towards the united states approaching from the west. it probably passed over japan and possibly south korea as well. so there's certainly a major impact, and on china's bilateral relations with more than just the united states. and i think here in asia
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countries are particularly concerned about sovereignty. a lot of the discussion i think in washington right now is over whether it was harming u.s. security, whether it was dangerous, whether the president should have moved faster or slower or -- but at the end of the day in asia the real concern is about sovereignty and about the violation of airspace, which is the major concern. and i think that reflects a different culture in the u.s. in terms of strategic outlook. so i think china has got a real problem on its hand, and it's going to have to manage its relations with its neighbors because they're now acutely aware of this violation of their own sovereignty. >> let's talk about the neighbors because this all comes as the u.s. is obviously strengthening military ties in the endo pacific to counter china. how is this playing out where you are in terms of regional powers? are they worried about this diplomatic crisis between the u.s. and china?
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>> i think there's deep concern about heightened competition between the u.s. and china. the refrain here is countries don't want to be forced to choose sides. they want to be able to have atonmaes, agency. they want to be able to have economic relations with china, security relations with the u.s. what they're telling both beijing and washington is to give them space. they want to benefit from the relationship. but what they're also doing is hedging. they're hedging against u.s. policies that could shift in different administrations and china being aggressive or hegemonic, so they're looking for economic and security benefits from both parties so that they can retain their atonmy. >> i want to get a final thought from you. the united states and china as you know have a very rocky diplomatic history, but as the world's two top economic powers are they doomed to each other? in other words, they have to
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engage whether they like it or not? >> yeah, they have to engage. and i think both sides realize that. secretary blinken's trip being postponed it is to engage but the question is to engage to what end. they're looking to prevent the relationship from spiring into conflict or outright confrontation, so they're trying to achieve what they call guardrails. they're trying to create some stability in the relationship and ultimately find the floor. we're not there yet, clearly. and i think the relationship is going to get worse before it gets better. we're looking at some politically sensitive periods coming up. you have the two congress meetings in china in march, the national peoples congress.
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i think you also have the potential flash point when speaker mccarthy travels to taiwan possibly in april, and that of course is going to be another hurdle the two countries are going to have to overcome. >> thank you so much for your analysis. >> my pleasure. >> going to go back to our breaking story. more now on the death of the former pakistani president. he'll perhaps be best remembered for the complicated relationship he had with the u.s. during the war on terror. what can you tell us about the legacy he leaves? >> he was post nine one of washington's most important allies after those attacks. he allowed u.s. forces to
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operate armed drones from secret bases on pakistan's soil. in a memoir he wrote back in 2006 he made a famous statement that carg to musharraf he'd been told by u.s. officials that pakistan should be prepared to be bombed back to the stone age if they did not ally itself with washington. there's also an increased amount of militancy in pakistan and then became the president of the country. he was in power during the time of what have said it was a time of enlightened moderation. but his distracters have said because of the policy he enacted during his long rule pakistan split further into militancy and has left a legacy we're still seeing here in this country. we still have the taliban and
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just last week we had one of the worst attacks in the history of the country take place. the shadow of his legacy for both the people who have admired him and mourning him today will also be interlinked with the increase. >> sophia reporting from islamabad, thank you so much. as these weapons depart ukraine is getting commitments that more western firepower will follow. that's ahead.
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works hard at hour one and twice as hard when you take it again the next day. so betty can be the... barcode beat conductor. ♪ go betty! ♪ let's be more than our allergies! zeize the day. with zyrtec. back to our top story now in the downing of a suspected chinese spy balloon off the usa east coast. a u.s. fighter jet successfully brought it down on saturday after hitting it with a single missile. the balloon then fell into the atlantic from a height of about 12 miles or 20 kilometers. in a news statement china's defense ministry has expressed protest and says it reserves the right to use necessary means to
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deal with similar situations. ukraine's president is warning about the situation on the front lines as western allies pledge more firepower for kyiv to fight back. slaud more zelenskyy says the grueling war with russia is not getting any easier. >> translator: over the 346 days of this war i have often said the situation at the front is tough and that the situation is getting tougher. now is such a time again, a time when the occupier is throwing more and more of its forces and breaking down our defense. >> well, meanwhile mr. zelenskyy thanked the british prime minister for training ukrainian tank crews. some of them are in the u.k. learning the ropes of the challenger tanks, which britain plans to send to ukraine. meanwhile canada says the tanks it promised to craw yan are already on the way. canada's defense minister posted
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this video of the leopard tanks being loaded on transport planes. on saturday portugal became the latest country to pledge leopards to ukraine. while france and italy are now promising a new air defense system to be delivered this spring. britain and the european union are hoping to inflict more economic pain on russia with new sanctions going into effect today. the eu is introducing a ban on imports of russian diesel while the u.k. is slapping a ban on insurance and other services affecting maritime transport of russia's oil products. for more now cnn's scott mcclain is in london. new sanctions going into effect or what can you tell us? >> reporter: the west clearly feels they need to do something to keep the pressure on russia forecasting the russian economy is forecast to grow ever so slightly this year despite the war and despite the growing list of sanctions against the country. so this latest round is
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essentially a brand new price cap. it's been agreed by the u.s., the g7, the eu, and australia, and it caps the price of refined oil products. so this is diesel, gasoline things like that. this is on top the price cap of russian crude oil at $60 a barrel that has already been agreed to back in december. a u.s. treasury official said, look, the goal here with the this is not to tank the economy but force the kremlin into a choice, either prop up its economy or spend more money on the war effort, it can't have both. essentially western ships will not be able to carry refined oil products that were purchased and insurance companies won't be able to ensure them. what this does not do is bar any third countries from purchasing russian oil products, but because of the cap in place and
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reduced demand for russian products there's going to be a lesser price put paid by these third countries. case in point russian crude, brent crude they trade usually around the same price. you can buy russian crude around 30%. one thing to add quickly the eu coming off an eu ukraine summit in kyiv this week says there'll be a brand new round of sanctions to coincide with the anniversary of war. this round of sanctions will have an impact to the tune of $11 billion or so or go after the trade and technology behind russia's war effort. >> scott mcclain reporting, thank you so much. scott. and we'll be back with more news after this break. love entwined. shop the valentine's day sale and save on everything. only at kay.
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welcome back to all of our viewers around the world. a quick recap for you for one of our top stories right now. the u.s. has shot down a suspected chinese spy balloon over the atlantic ocean after it drifted across america for several days. on lookers near the coast captured the moment it was struck by a single missile from a fighter jet. one official says debris from the large balloon landed in the 47 feet of water that's about 15 meters, and that should make it
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fairly easy to recover. chinese officials deny it was a spy balloon, and they're condemning the u.s. for using force to bring it down. president biden says he approved the plan to shoot down the chinese balloon earlier in the week. cnn's arlette saenz has details from the white house. >> reporter: president biden told his top military leaders in a meeting on wednesday to shoot down that chinese spy balloon transiting over the u.s. as soon as possible. the president heard advice from military leaders who warned that shooting anything down over land, over ground could pose a risk to american lives, but ultimately the president heeded their advice and waited to have this balloon shot down until it was over the waters on saturday afternoon. president biden was briefed on those final plans friday evening, and ultimately defense secretary lloyd austin gave that final go ahead shortly after
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noon on saturday. now, the president was flying on air force one from syracuse, new york, to maryland and was on the phone with his top officials as this operation was under way. and here's what he had to tell reporters about the considerations given to that decision. >> on wednesday when i was briefed on the balloon i ordered the pentagon to shoot it down on wednesday as soon as possible. they decided without doing damage to anyone on the ground and decided that the best time to do that was it got over water within a 12-mile limit. they successfully took it down, and i want to compliment our aviators who did it, and we'll have more to report on this a little later. thank you. >> what's your message to china? >> you were saying the recommendation was from -- >> i told them to shoot it down. >> on wednesday. >> on wednesday. they said to me let's wait until the safest place to do it. >> republicans were quick to criticize president biden for
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not taking steps to down this balloon sooner. republicans have argued that this is a sign of weakness in the white house's approach towards china, but the white house has pushed back saying this was a responsible action for a commander in chief to take. they are arguing that what the president was trying to do was prioritize saving american lives. now, there are lawmakers on both sides of the aisle who are calling for briefings and hearings into this matter and the so-called gang of eight congressional leaders will receive a briefing from biden administration officials next week as there are still so many outstanding questions about how this incident unfolded. arlette saenz, cnn, the white house. >> the suspected chinese spy balloon shot down over the carolinas wasn't the only one in the western hemisphere. the pentagon said a second balloon was flying over latin america. confirmed the sights in his country and told cnn the balloon did not originate inicosa reeka
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and has now disappeared. the columbian air force, meanwhile, said the balloon spotted in their airspace was at an altitude above 50,000 feet, and it's working with other countries to establish the balloon's origin. the balloon has since left u.s. airspace. >> there were reports of a second balloon in at least two latin-american countries looking a lot like the chinese surveillance balloon that was shot down friday after flying over the united states. cnn is aware of at least half a dozen eyewitnesses in latin america who have reported seeing the white balloon shared on social media and images of its flight overicosa reeka. an airben object seen flying over the united states was spotted near columbia as this video shared with cnn shows around friday afternoon local
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time using a cellphone and a telescope. columbia media have also reported sightings of a balloon flying about 75,000 feet over columbian airspace. we have reports the balloon has been spotted over costa rica. posted a video of the balloon on twitter saying the same type of balloon spotted in the u.s. was visible all day in the costa rican sky. cnn geolocated. on saturday the pentagon confirmed sightings of a balloon over latin america and said it was another chinese balloon. they confirmed the sightings but not the origin of the object. cnn has been unable to confirm whether these foreign objects
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are indeed chinese balloons. pope francis meet with internally displaced people in south sudan and gives the country's children a special blessing. this story just ahead. try bounce lasting fresh dryer sheets. ♪ more freshness. more softness. less static. less wrinkles. yeah! it's the sheet. ♪ new bounce lasting fresh dryer sheets. it's the sheet! ♪ to finally lose 80 pounds and keep it off with golo is amazing. i've been maintaining. the weight is gone and it's never coming back. wi golo, i've not only kept off the weight but i'm happier, i'm healthier, and i have a new lease on life.
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it's pope francis' last day in sudan. we're bringing you live pictures now from the capital where he's been celebrating mosque at a masoleum. he called for a rejection of violence and all conflicts. the pontiff and two other leaders said a special message. joining us now is john allen, cnn's senior vatican analyst and jones us now live from rome. so good to see you, john. pope francis there with other church leaders on a peace
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mission. the pontiff met with displaced children. >> you're right. yesterday the pope met with leaders. south sudan has the worst crisis of internally displaced persons in the world. civil war broke out in 2013 and has never really ended. that's created a massive crisis which today is being compounded by what the united nations describes as one of the world's greatest crises in terms ofmal nutrition and food insecurity. the pope addressing many of these people in the national capital of juba describe them as the seeds of a new south sudan. he noted one of the things about these camps where internally displaced persons preside is all the country's different tribal and ethnic groups are there together, in the same boat. and he noted that creates a sense of solidarity across some
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of the traditional dividing lines in the country's culture he believes can be the basis for a new future of peace and reconciliation, leila. >> but what will his visit have changed for the people of south sudan? >> well, it's difficult to say, isn't it? i mean some trips leave a deep and lasting impact. others come and go without much notable change. i'm not sure we're going to know later today which one this is. i will say south sudan is one of those places in the world where the pope stands a fighting chance of making a real difference. i mean in 2011 catholic radio was essentially a communications network of the independence movement. two thirds of the population in south sudan more or less is roman catholic. the road map peace agreement that was agreed to but never implemented in 2018 was signed in rome under the aegis of a catholic movement.
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so the catholic church has all kinds of social and diplomatic capital in the country. if anyone can nudge the country to a better future arguably is pope francis, the man who was in town even as we speak. >> john allen in rome, thanks so much, john. and we'll take a quick break. for our viewers in north america i'll have more news for you in just a moment. for our international viewers "marketplace africa" is up next.
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welcome back to all our viewers joining us from across north america. i'm leila harruck and you're watching "cnn newsroom." the u.s. military right now is working to salvage the suspected chinese spy balloon after it was shot down over the atlantic. president biden gave the go ahead to shoot it down several days ago, and the pentagon waited until it was out over water on saturday. a single u.s. missile hit the balloon at an altitude of some 12 miles or 20 kilometers. the debris is now said to be on
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the ocean floor in relatively shallow water. while china accuses the u.s. of shooting down a, quote, civilian unmanned airship, and the chinese defense ministry warned it reserves the right to use, quote, necessary means to deal with a similar situation. well, divers from the u.s. navy are working to recover debris of the chinese spy balloon from the atlantic ocean. sources tell cnn it'll then be taken to the fbi lab from quantico, virginia, for analysis. >> reporter: this is a portion of the balloon investigators want to get their hands on, that payload, the central core. when the balloon was destroyed you could clearly see it falling away below. now, if this had the mass of a human like a skydiver it might be falling at 100, 150 miles an hour, something like that. if it had the mass of a couple
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cars its terminal velocity might have been 500 miles an hour or up from that. what that means is when it got to this area just off myrtle beach the water would be essentially like concrete. it would hit it with tremendous force and be absolutely misshapen, torn apart, broken up by this impact. what does that mean for recovery? what it means is the first thing they have to do when they get settled out there and divers down 47 feet, that's good. that's a good workable depth. there they have to look at this, figure out how many pieces it's in, where they are, assess it, if some is buried down in the mud below and then come up with a list of priorities, what do they want to big up first, how do they want to bring it up to protect this as much as they can. these operations typically are longer than most people expect even though they believe this one could be pretty fast. think of it this way this is like an underwater crime scene now and they have to protect
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their evidence as best they can if they want to learn all they can about this balloon. >> retired u.s. air force colonel cedric leighton spoke to cnn earlier about the shoot down of the chinese balloon on saturday, and this is what he had to say on the type of training air force pilots undergo before they get sent on these missions. >> the training that these pilots undergo is really significant. they, you know, go for about a year and a half of what's called undergraduate pilot training when they first come into the air force and first get their commissions. and after that they specialize in their particular air frames. most of the pilots that are flying the f22 have flown another air plane before that, so they would have had experience with another type of airplane. but the type of skills that they acquire in these kinds of situations are then honed in places like an air force base in
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nevada where they have the fighter weapons school. and so these kinds of tactics are really essential not only to war fighting but to really precise operational flight and the targeting piece of this from the pilot, the weapon, the sideliner missile in this case to the actual target. that really speaks to the precision that is very evident in these cases, and it speaks to the precision of the u.s. weapons systems that are available to us. >> and cedric leighton also noted how rare instances of spy balloons have been in american history. >> that's a very rare occurrence. i mean you can go back to world war i and probably a little bit of world war ii to find a few instances like this in the history of air power, but this is something that in the modern age you never expect to see this. but what it really tells us is that the adversaries that we have can use a variety of weapons. some of those weapons are
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unexpected weapons. some of them are, you know,ole fashioned in a sense like these balloons are, but these weapons systems or these intelligence platforms, they can be used in many, many ways and we have to really understand what the enemy is or the adversary is up to and adapt our tactics and techniques to whatever techniques they're using. >> people in carolina were carefully tracking the balloon as it moved overhead. cnn has spoken with several people who watched u.s. f22 fighter jets shoot the buloon out of the sky. let's taken a listen. >> i've seen a lot of crazy stuff in myrtle beach over the last few years, and this is by far the craziest. we were at lunch and we were kind of joking around what it we see it, what if it's right here, obviously them shooting it down
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as reports indicated it was imminent. and so we went outside and we saw the fighter jets circling around. there were about three or four of them and after that we heard a bang and the balloon was gone. >> people were outside. >> they were in parking lots pulling everyone on the side of the road. all the beach access, it looked like it was summertime here the way the beach access was packed with people. so i went to one of the local condominiums and went up to the 15th floor on it because i knew i'd have a better vantage point to see it in the sky. the north eastern u.s. is thawing out from an arctic blast that brought bone chilling and life threatening temperatures. the wind chill alerts have largely ended as the gusting winds died down. temperatures are expected to rebound to about 35 to 10 degrees above normal in the coming hours. but on saturday boston dropped to a low temperature of minus 10
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degrees fahrenheit. that's minus 23 degrees celsius. while parts of new york city hit 5 degrees on saturday as cnn's gloria paz mina reports the brutal cold forcing many to stay home and off the streets. i've been speaking with tourists and new yorkers who are unphased by the temperatures all day he had a hard time getting it setup and he's told me that business is a little bit and watching the
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dog and just enjoying the weather. >> just ran around the park. >> just ranpark. >> ran around the park. >> yes, 12 degrees >> not bad when the within is not blowing, feels good. feels refreshing. >> a lot of people my god, it's fashionable yes, but it's also functioning the hats to make sure her ears are warm, face head and shoes because it's like new york and there's glass and all these other stuff, so yeah. >> i also spoke to a man who was visiting new york city from chicago, he told me this is nothing he wascting comfortable because he was dressed for the elements that is one of the most important things
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if you are going to go outside in these very cold temperatures dress appropriately wear layers, if you don't need to probably best stay home. i'm gloria pass amino, in new york, cnn. dozens of wildfires are burning in chilly and the weather isn't happening temperatures in excess of 100 degrees in area the size of philadelphia has already been charred and the cost of human lives continues to rose. the death toll stands at 23, cnn michael holmes has details. >> reporter: the fears have done their damage in this part of chili home after home burned to the ground, some flames yet to die out wildfires raging through 40,000 land in south of central parts of the country, fanned boy strong winds and searing temperature, the government declaring a state of conserve
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catastrophe so soldiers can join the battle. also asking neighbors for assistance with argentina pledging to send more manpower and machinery, that help too late for some, more than 20 people died because of the fires and hundreds of homes have been damage. much of the terrain in the fires path made up a vulnerable farm of forests, some residents going into savage mode pouring buckets of water on the small smouldering property to prevent reigniting for many a total loss, what's left of their homes, lies in scrap peels. on friday, president cut short his summer vacation to wove people staying in shelters. >> and tried to resure them by saying the government is using its strength to combat fears and families will get the help they need, no help in sight from the forecast with more hot temperatures and windy
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conditions expected which could further the advance of the fires, despite the reenforcements chilly is bringing in. michael holmes, cnn. a massive fire near the ohio pennsylvania border followed a train derailment that happened nearly 24 hour ago. evacuation and shelter in place orders were put into effect nearby residents in northeast ohio, no injuries reported but the train was hauling between cars with hazardous tomorrows according to a transport official, but officials say they have not detected any harmful releases. cause of the derailment is unclear. roll .
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