good evening, everyone. welcome to cnn tonight. former vice president mike pence has been subpoenaed by the special counsel investigating donald trump to testify about his former boss. a special counsel seeking information from pence about his interactions with donald trump leading up to the election and what happened on january 6th. [ chanting ] >> nothing like that or like this has ever happened before. plus, the latest installment of the george santos soap on that raffle we have new info

involving puppies, amish dog breeders and $15,000 worth of bad checks. and what liberals can learn from ron desantis. there's a piece in the new york time that warns liberals not to underestimate desantis. he may resemble trump but not in his intellect or resolve. right to the news. with me in studio, we have natasha, former assistant special watergate prosecutor nick ackerman and john berman. seamless, people. seamless. >> you walked all the way over here. >> across a bridge, everyone. great to have you all. obviously, they want the talk to vice president pence. he was key in all of this. specifically, what information can he provide that no one else can? >> well, he had direct one-on-one conversations with donald trump. there is absolutely no way the special counsel can decide whether to indict or not to

indict donald trump until he first puts vice president pence under oath in a grand jury and asks him what they said, what donald trump said to him and what he said to donald trump. >> i'm surprised to hear you say. that they do have a lot of other information. let me pull up this full screen, this graphic, of who has testified before the grand jury. so not the special counsel but they have this information. pat cipollone, pat philbin, mark short, former pence chief of staff, pence's general counsel, ken cuccinelli, why is pence so instrumental if they have information from all of those people? >> a lot of that is hearsay for starters. what they're looking at is statements by trump. what was his state of mind? what was he telling pence? what did pence tell him? there is no way you can have an indictment unless they get that evidence on a grand jury, in a

subpoena, and lock in mike pence. they have to know what he was going to say, if they should go ahead and indict donald trump. >> one more question. can pence refuse a subpoena by the special counsel? . >> he can try to refuse. he can be held in contempt. he can be forced to testify. he can claim executive privilege. that ship has already passed. i think that pat cipollone was already in there before the grand jury. that issue of executive privilege has been litigated in the district of columbia. so i don't see that he has any room here other than to go in, tell the truth, and cooperate. >> natasha? your thoughts? >> i wonder about the lack of willingness to just cooperate. it seems as if mike pence wants to walk this tight rope between still being loyal to trump, still being seen as a hero in this moment. and you wonder why. what is it that he's still holding on to after all this

time considering that donald trump was more than willing to throw him under the bus? the memoir that he put out, the fact that he was willing to talk about those interactions only day. if you're willing to put that in the memoir, then you have to be willing to speak when the time comes. >> john? >> mike pence knows exactly what donald trump will him to do or didn't tell him to do. he knows whether donald trump, the president of the united states, told him, mike pence, to use a power he did not have to overturn the election. his testimony on that is key. but do you know who mike pence could have told about that conversation if it occurred until now? all of us. anyone. to natasha's point, if mike pence wanted this information out there in an easy way, he could have done it at any time. he's been playing a political game because he doesn't want to upset a potential republican political base that he may need if he run for president. >> here's what he said to cnn about why he wasn't going to testify to the january 6th

committee. so congress. here's what he said. >> congress has no right to my testimony. congress doesn't report to the white house. the white house doesn't report to the congress. i truly do believe in the separation of powers and to avoid what would be a terrible precedent. >> is this different? >> way different. there is no separation of powers. this isn't a congressional subpoena. this is a federal subpoena from not a investigation that happens to come from the executive branch. the special counsel is part of the executive branch of the justice department. so that argument has no water. >> in a tash, a here's what he said. here's what he said in his memoir. he said that he basically got a text, i assume, from donald trump. you're too honest, he childed. hundreds of thousands are going to hate your guts. people will think you're stupid. >> right. he includes the quotes that make him seem sort of, to have the moral high ground in the moment that matters the most.

but you have to wonder. there were probably so many other moments in which that moral high ground was tested, in which there were conversations that were had that indicated that something unjust was going to happen. or they were trying to overturn the election and mike pence, you know, he didn't speak up in those moments. so i'm not really impressed by the selective quotes that he puts out there to show how he responded in that moment. >> i'm just as surprised to hear you say that donald trump cannot be indicted unless the special counsel gets vice president pence's testimony. here again, sure, we don't know exactly what he said, what he told mike pence to do. but we know all of this other stuff that happened from social media to the rally, to the not going basically m.i.a. as the commander in chief. >> except that the key piece of all these schemes that donald trump was perpetrating, whether it was the fake electors, whether it was trying to get the state legislatures to put in new

electors that were trump electors. all hinged on whether or not mike pence would send these electors back to the states. back to the legislatures to have it redone. his whole point with all these items, these schemes that donald trump had cooked up were basically geared toward mike pence acting outside of his duties as vice president, rather than just the formality of voting, just counting up the electoral vote of basically declare that the vote was no good and it had to go back to the states. that was the whole point of what donald trump was trying to do. when he couldn't get mike pence to do it, that's when the violence started. the whole idea was to stop that vote. to stop the congress from doing anything. i think there was a plot to get mike pence out of the capitol so

this couldn't go forward. >> mike pence thought that also. that's why he refused. there is a car waiting right here for you. no thanks. >> he's the key guy. what a remarkable sight it would be if it ever came to a criminal case and a former vice president was put in a courtroom to testify against his running mate? the president of the united states? could you imagine something like that? i do want the present one reverse view of this. it's not impossible that people in trump world think that mike pence's testimony could help donald trump if mike pence were to testify, yeah, trump asked me to do all these awful things. but during the whole time donald trump really believed the election was stolen. as ridiculous as that concept is. trump could argue, look, i had no corrupt intent. and corrupt intent could be a key part of the charges against him. >> it could. but he's involved in too many things. he was involved in the fake electors. he put john eastman in touch

with rowan mcdaniels to get her to put together these fake electors. he was involved in trying to get the justice department to cook up a phony letter that would go to the legislature in georgia so he put in his own puppet attorney general to tell the legislature, look, guys, there's fraud in this election. you have to do something about it. all these lies including just those snip elliots that the january 6th committee showed where donald trump on the one hand was told, knew that he had lost the election, and then immediately within 24 hours, turns around and says, the election was stolen. and even worse, you have john eastman with an email on december 31st. he's claiming to be donald trump's lawyer. they were concerned about donald trump swearing to certain facts about fake election results in georgia. and john eastman in that email says that donald trump knows that these are all faults so he

can't really have him swear to the affidavit. what do they do? they file an affidavit in federal court sworn to by donald trump. all one big lie. so i don't see how he gets around corrupt intent. corrupt intent is simply doing something with an improper purpose. clearly the improper purpose was to try to keep himself in power even though he lost the election. >> okay, smarty pants. do you want to retract your theory? >> i didn't say it was a good argument. i said it was an argument. i'm making an argument. >> and nick disspelled it. that was a real actual lesson in brilliance. thank you all very much. coming up, he lied about his resume. he lied about his family. he lied about being jewish. the latest george santos saga, now it is about puppies. why he was charged with theft in 2017 over some checks.

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made it smell like dave was in his happy place... ...the massage chair at the mall. but...he wasn't. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. another night, another george santos scandal. fresh off his state of the union encounter with mitt romney when the senator told santos, you don't belong here, george santos is back. this time it's another bad check scandal. several bad checks in his name went to dog breeders in amish country in 2017. they were supposed to be for

puppies. here with me in the studio, the republican strategist, also back with us, natasha, and john berman. in 2017, george santos was charged with theft by deception after these bad checks, and i think we can put them up on the screen. six of them for $2,000 plus, were made out to, not all of them but that was the high, made out to dog breeders. in the memo in each one it says puppies. obviously this isn't the first time. he's also wanted for forging checks in brazil. he's being investigated for a ponzi scheme. and as you know, he also is being investigated for ripping off a disabled vet who had a dying dog. and now these checks total $15,000 for puppies. i mean, at what point, what is the breaking point for

republicans when they've had enough? >> i think again, we have to take a step back. i think all the accusations in isolation by themselves are probably horrendous. the compound impact of them should shock the conscience. unfortunately, and i say that in a very serious way, we are a nation of laws. that means that you are in this country innocent until proven guilty. i would not sit back here and say i want to sit back and sign up for defense of george santos but that still has to mean something. until he's been indicted, until he's been convicted of a crime, the notion that we start removing members of congress by virtue of allegation is a slippery slope. >> so the breaking point would be conviction. >> i think that is the precedent that already exists. there are certainly members who have not had the litany but when you have members of congress that get indicted, certainly convicted, that's when they end up heading off to the proverbial

guillotine. >> but sometime they're tossed out because of an ethics violation. >> congress can do it. there's also the mitt romney standard that exists which is, they can walk the halls. walk by him and tell him every time, you shouldn't be here. every member in that chamber can walk up to him every time they see him and say you shouldn't be here. i flunked the law class in the last segment. there is something called the marginal rate of return. the marginal rate of outrage on each new george santos scandal is very small. he's already done 12 bonkers things. so amish puppies, that adds very little to the story. but the members of congress, it should already be enough to do what mitt romney did. >> i think there are plenty of members doing that. certain members who don't want to be seen in pictures with him. they don't want to be seen

kanoodling with him. >> but kevin mccarthy could do it. >> it the reality is it sets a dangerous precedent saying you want to throw people out of congress before they've been convicted. >> passing bad collection to amish puppy dealers. if you draw the line there. >> i think the problem is, right? don't mess with the puppies. don't mess with cats. don't mess with puppies. don't mess with babies. >> too late. he's also messed with a dying dog, according to the veteran. >> i think all of these actions are abysmal. there is no place for them in society, much less in the halls of congress. but that being said, again, we can talk about adam clayton powell, a lot of people that were unjustly in the congress. the circumstances are wildly different. at the end of the day, there is a precedent that has to be set. george sanity clos effectively undermined the will of the people. you don't thwart the will of the

people until they've been convicted of a crime. >> my only thought is it is the small moments of courage that matter. i think what mitt romney did, that was a moment of courage. if they did it, there would be power that in. but we're in a world where politics matters more than actual character. so this is what you get when you invite this into your party. >> it is distracting. let's be honest. >> we're having this conversation. we're not talking about the inflation that has run amok. >> every night george santos takes up some air time. yet another scandal. >> the question is why? >> because it's unheard of and so flagrant, brazen. >> it the reality is he has a ton of problems that predate his time in congress. i think the statements made by the entirety of the gop including two sitting members of congress speaks for itself. i think there are plenty of republicans on the record. so this notion where we try to cherry pick the country side to

find which republicans haven't that enough about george santos who has already done enough on his own accord does us a great disservice. there are so many issues we can and should be talking about. >> and we will be. but there is an ethics committee investigation that is supposed to be starting. i don't know why it hasn't. meanwhile, poor manu raju has another full-time job that he never asks for. he has to try to get george santos to answer for some of these things. so there was a ponzi scheme that he's accused of being a part of in 2020. so today manu raju tried to get him to talk about that. >> why did you root for someone who was later accused of being in a ponzi scheme? were you aware of that? >> no, no, i did not. >> every day. >> the hardest part is you know some senior producer called right after that and said wait a second. you didn't ask about the amish

puppy dealers. i was still talking about the last one. >> every hour. >> what we're not talking about are the people of new york's third congressional district bereft of representation. they are working in conjunction in ny 4 to try to deal with the issues happening for them. >> first, they were misled by who he was and his background. and also, he's not working on legislation. he's running down the hall looking to shake hands at the state of the union. >> you have ricky torres, god bless him. i don't know what he'll do when george santos is not around anymore. i think it is a step in the right direction. we can talk about what comes next. obsession over what is the next boot to drop for him, there will be many more. i will predict it right here. i don't think we'll be shocked by it. i think there is so much happening in this country. so many families in pain. i think that has to be the priority. >> for sure. and we do cover all of that.

but george santos cannot be ignored. it is so peculiar to have a serial liar lie right to your face. that needs to be called out. thank you all. stick around. here's another topic. president biden said he doesn't really see a difference between trump and desantis. is that a mistake? do democrats have something to learn from governor desantis? we'll talk about that, next. ♪ over the last 100 years, lincoln's witnessed a good bit of history.

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not ready to decide if he'll seek re-election, although he's been dropping hints like crazy. even holding an event in florida. a key event in the 2020 race. it is also home to two potential republican rivals. donald trump and ron desantis. pamela paul writes today that liberals can learn a lot from desantis. quote, it would be tempting to write off desantis, the bombastic republican governor of florida, as another unelectable right wing lunatic unfit for national office. we've made that mistake before.

we're back with my guests. natasha, basically what pamela paul is saying is that desantis is not trump. people who think he's the new tangled trump, he's not trump. he's stolen a page from trump. but her argument is we shouldn't write him off. compare their respective back ground think. trump's acceptance into the university of pennsylvania after an academic known only for mediocrity. desantis, the son of a tv ratings box installer and a nurse earned his way into the i'vy league. he worked his way through yale while playing baseball and graduated magnum cum laudee. >> it sounds like she's really impressed by his resume. >> i think that was a lesson learned with donald trump. i think when donald trump ran, it changed our standard for everything. and i think that ron desantis

shouldn't be underestimated. i think he's just using a play book that we've seen before. i don't think that it is new. he has more governing experience than donald trump did when he came into office. he has been able the play the culture wars really well in florida and play to the base. but i don't think people are underestimating him. if donald trump could win, ron desantis definitely could win. i think people are more afraid of what would happen if ron desantis wins, because he's actually implementing things that are terrifying. >> i think, i thought this article was interesting. it's a weird strawman being set up here. i don't know who is underestimating ron desantis. i think they're very cognizant of the unique challenges that he poses. two really interesting things. number one, the trump-desantis dynamic. do they go after each other? if democrats do face him, i think that they are going to be

posed with a challenge based on what they said about donald trump for four to six years. that donald trump is a unique threat to democracy. that our concerns about donald trump are something different. barack obama used to say so much in his speeches. he said, look. it's one thing about arguing with george w. bush. i had an issue with his policies but i wasn't terrified for the nation or shaking in my boots over what he might do to the foundations of our system. that's what they said about trump. i don't think they can go and put that mantle on every republican necessarily. so i'm very curious to see if they try to do that. i don't know that it will resonate quite the same way. >> i don't think it is every republican. i think there's something uniquely painful about this root that desantis is tapping into. we're talking about really personal things. black history. the pain and trauma that african americans have faced in this

country to attack that head on. or the teachers and students in the front lines of classrooms, to say what they can't learn. to have your administration ask for a list of staff and programs and activities around diversity and inclusion. america, i believe we envision ourselves as being beyond that. we've decided that diversity matters. that we believe in those principles. i think that the main stream is there. so when he does that, i think he's setting himself up to create more of a fight. >> although obviously his approval ratings are high in florida. >> i think there's a lot to unpack here. i would agree, you can't underestimate ron desantis. i think that's the wrong word. with i think it is dismiss. i think when you look at the extremeness of desantis, you set a new bar for over the top. or your everyday republican. the reason news day missed what happened with george desantis, the reason so many people dismissed the reality that ron desantis became the first republican since 2002 to win

miami-dade is because so many people in the media, so many on the left have decide that had by virtue of being a republican, you are extreme. that all republicans are extreme. >> i don't know that that is true. let me argue that. ron desantis is doing things that are noteworthy for the culture warrior in him. he's doing things that are not just sort of standard republican. >> what is standard republican? literally, i think there's one person that writes all the tweets for senator schumer or the minority leader, every tweet, extremist this, extremist that. if you decided that everyone is a maga extremist exempt for those republicans who have disavowed their own party, on some base level, there is no distinction. i think that's what this author was trying to tap into. that so many democrats have decided there is nothing redeemable about being a republican. that joe biden can get on stage and quote the words of abe

lincoln but all the times between the quoting of lincoln he is calling half the people that call this country home people who do not deserve to take the actual mantle of being an american. >> i don't know about that. i don't think joe biden plays that card often. >> it depends on the day. >> he says maga republicans very specifically. >> who is maga republicans? it is becoming this thing where it is whatever you need it to be in the moment. >> no. that's what wokeness is. that's what the right does with wokeness. they need wokeness to be anything that has to do with progression, inclusion, diversion. that goes under woke. and there is an actual thing in place because of ron desantis. so he is picking these fights. >> to joe's point, would you say that ron desantis is a maga republican? >> absolutely. >> so he's in that category. >> who are the nonmaga

republicans at this point? that's all i'm saying. i think we've gotten to the point where 25% of republicans may hold views prescribed to all republicans. when there's 25% that prescribe to a view, somehow it is their view and their view alone. so whatever that standard is that we'll set. we'll have cogent public discourse. we have to be consistent to say here are the parameters and here are the guardrails. it prevents republicans from engaging, you will find the iteration of anything that a person with an r has done. >> there is no discourse in florida. it is literally being shut down and legislated into law. we can't even have a conversation about discourse when you have a governor who is telling teachers what they can -- >> he is legislating a lot. >> there are thing that i agree with and things that he has done that i disagree with. i think the most important conversation is, what is the root cause of him feeling the

need to take these issues on. woke has -- of course it is. weley in the world of political expediency. to be given the ends justify the means. >> what do you agree with? >> when he talks about what happened with the african history course and has to explain that it was because of these things that were included. by that time it's the don't say black bill on twitter. so i think on some basic level, yes, there are things we should have a conversation about. is it misguided? appropriate? i think there are things american people are concerned about. democrats are too quick to dismiss. you don't have to be someone with hatred in your heart for gay people to simple say, perhaps we should have the conversation about whether drag shows are appropriate. >> it is hard to know where to stafrlt there was so much that you said.

all i can say is that the idea that we are controlling thoughts, right? it undermines the claim that liberals are the most extreme. liberals are the ones trying to control conversations and tell you what you think. absolutely. when you say we can't talks about intersectionality, or -- or you say that queer theory doesn't matter to black history when byron ruston planned the march on washington. let's just focus on the facts. i don't needle to you agree with everything that i believe. but we can allow for facts. and that's how america grows by facing the truth. >> we do have to leave our history there. >> i do think again. the facts remain the same. the content of the facts matter and teenage appropriateness does matter the parents. i think too many people on the left ignore that. >> okay, thank you both very much.

a lot of people are talking about pla madonna's appearance the grammys. but someone said, do you think that madonna doesn't know what she's doing? stay with us. ugh covid-19?

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what's going on with madonna? many people have strong feelings about how she looked at the grammys the other night. there's no denying she looks different from the material girl that we've all known for decades. but madonna is talking back to her critics. her column is titled, the unacceptable look on her face. thank you so much for being here. why do you think that madonna's

appearance, meaning her physical appearance at the grammys, has inspired such strong thoughts from people? >> reporter: well, i think that women as they age are really in a double bind. if she had looked old, we would be saying she looks older, she looks tired. what's going on there? and instead, she showed up having a very different face than people were used to seeing her wear. and people aren't liking that either. so i think that it is really a double bind and a tough situation for female celebrities to be in as they age. >> i see it a little differently. i see it a little bit, the way i see anorexia. which is, it's like body dismorphia. when you see somebody like that, you think, is she not seeing what we're seeing? when she looks in the mirror, what does she see? that's why i found it a little jarring. because she didn't look recognizable and i think we're

all used to cosmetic surgery. we know people get cosmetic surgery. she's had it in the past and she looked beautiful. i remember the 2012 -- what is that game called? the super bowl. she did the halftime show. and i remember thinking, oh, she has had plastic surgery. here she is. and she looks stunning. this time, there was an unrecognizable quality that i found jarring. >> i want to say figure and foremost as a woman in a business where we are judged, you know, and it's not kind as you get older. whatever do you to your face and your body. that's your right to do it. i think women are held to an unfair standard to look the same or to always be attractive. so that is a reality. but i do think that there is an extreme in the culture where people are doing so much that being natural, right? aging gracefully, sore not making alterations to your body gets you criticism. and having the plastic surgery

and whatever alterations is a little more normal. so i think people were reacting to this idea, why do we have to do the extreme? why does she have to do anything to her face? we would love to see madonna aging gracefully. you don't win eat way. >> monica, what about my theory, it is that it looked so different that it was jarring to us. >> i think that the cardinal infraction she committed, if you believe she committed an infraction, is that the work was obvious. and i think that is what you're saying. we are accustomed to people making tweaks, making tucks, showing up and saying, oh, i've just been sleeping a lot. i look so rested. what madonna did was not subtle and it was not something that you could ignore. and i think that that prompted discomfort in an audience that

is accustomed to this being an open secret. to this being something that you don't really talk about in polite company. she looked in a way that sort of asked people to remark on it. and we're not used to being put in that position. >> john, do you have thoughts? >> look. i'm on team natasha here. i've co-authored a lot of shows with women before. one of the thing i would notice, i would get roughly zero comments ever about how i look. and i look bad a lot of the time. >> impossible! >> but my point is the people i was sitting next to, the things said about them were shocking. for some reason people feel entitled to pass judgment whenever they want. whether it is justified or not on how a woman looks. what she wears. what her hair is doing. that creates, i think, a perceived need by some people. by some women to do certain

things to themselves. >> madonna was doing what she wanted to do which i think she has for a long time. >> it we do terrible things to women, forcing them to effectively feel as if they have to perform for other people at all times. and i think to natasha's point, we should be asking the question that so many people feel they have to be somebody other than who they are. it's her choice. she's madonna, an icon. >> true point. monica, thank you for being here. thank you for all that. there is another mystery at the zoo. this time a gibbon in japan got pregnant except that she lives alone with no male visitors. what happened? >> i know what happened. >> do you? >> a mystery visit.

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♪ let's go! ♪ what you gon' do? you ain't talkin' 'bout nothin'! ♪ ♪ twos who mysteries tonight, on the heels of animal tampering cases at the dallas too, what may be a copycat crime at the houston zoo. officials there investigating

potential vandalism to the pelican habitat. but there is an even bigger mystery at a visit in japan. how did an a, that lives alone in her enclosure, without any male visitors get pregnant? let's get some answers from wildlife biologist, jeff gordon, host of wildlife nation. we'll get to the pregnant eight in a second, jeff, but first let's start at the houston zoo because just last night you are on the program and saying you are concerned about copycat crimes. and so what was happening at the dallas do has maybe blood over into the houston zoo in the case of this brown pelican? >> yes, good evening alison. we are seeing this in a number of psychological institutions across the country and, these are institutions that are altruistic. their mission is to share wildlife conservation with the world. you know, they are not a state

penitentiary. it's not about super security, although the houston zoo has incredible security. alison, the houston zoo is a world-class zoo. it is probably one of my most favorite zoos in the country, certainly the greatest zoo in texas. >> so what do you think went wrong? >> well, i think that we are getting these delinquents, sociopathic, narcissistic, up to maniacs and they are copycat crimes and they're going to these institutions in places that are designed to share nature with the world with an adequate amount of security, but they're not designed to deal was intent of focused criminal actions like this. that is the challenge today. this is something new, historically we've not had problems with people stealing wildlife from zoos, but now we are seeing this across the country from new york, to philadelphia, and even in texas. >> all, right we will talk

about what to do later because unfortunately i assume that we will have you back on because this seems to have a trend. but we have to talk about the mystery at this japanese zoo about the pregnant given, a female, who lives alone, has not had any male visitors. when i read this jeff, i was afraid the story was going to and in a very dark and twisted way, but it turns out that they are solving the mystery here. when you heard this, did you have any sense of how she could have possibly gotten pregnant? >> you have this incredible story arc of lifeline earth, as it has been happening for millions of years. and you have a little pencil sized hole in the fence. >> was it really a pencil hole-sized hole defense? >> maybe i'm being too judgmental.

this is happened before where they think that a female is isolated, but she is feeling a little amorous, the fellow primate next door gets a sense of that and he is a way to get to point a to point b. >> except he has a way to get only one body part from point a to point b -- >> that's only needs. >> you are right. >> i'm thinking of the given, i'm thinking of a number two pencil eraser, and that's about all you need to pull this off. >> that is really visual, thank you for that. we should just let everybody know that after two years of investigating, as you did a paternity test because she got pregnant and had the champ. they did a paternity test on the baby and the mom, and they found out, as you say, that the guy next door there was a small hole between the enclosures and, like you said, it's a story of

ingenuity and determination and romance. >> and also alison, isn't it always the guy next door? >> and we all know that, yes it is. thank you for that tale as old as time. thank you. that was awesome, toxin. >> okay, new tonight former vice president pence subpoenaed by the special counsel investigating donald trump. what exactly do they want to know from him? stay with us. leader of many, and pet wrangler too. you report to your boss, every afafternoon. so beautiful. soso becoming a student again might seem impossible. hello, mi amor. but what if a school could be there for all of you? career, family, finances and mental health. well, it can. national university. supporting the whole you. [dramatic music] [radio chatter] ♪

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former vice presiden