this is "gps" the global public square, welcome to you in the united states and around the world. on the program this week marks the first anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. in that year hundreds of thousands dead. tens of billions of dollars in

damage. there is no end in sight. we'll look at how russia views this grim year with the anchors of exiled russian broadcaster tv rain. then we'll examine the present and future on the bloody battle field. is the war in a stalemate now and how might it finally end? i'll ask the experts. also, while all eyes are cast upward looking for more chinese balloons which of beijing's other actions are we missing on the ground and in the cyber realm? we'll explore. in the 360 days since russia's invasion, ukraine has become the front line in the global battle for democracy. it is a fight that is being fought in the airwaves as well as on the battle field. putin's minions are working overtime to control the message overseas and at home. under a law passed last year journalists in russia can be jailed for up to 15 years for reporting what the kremlin

considers fake news about what its military is doing. and calling the war in ukraine a war could land one in prison. because of the crackdown many in the industry fled including my guest today who run the independent tv news station rain. in 2022 the network famously ended its last newscast with an anti-war message before cutting to an old performance of "swan lake." today tv rain operates in exile broadcasting on youtube. the network's editor-in-chief and anchor and news director, welcome to you both. good to see you. let me start with you. you are at the munich security conference where the first time in the conference's history no russian officials have been invited. instead the chairman of the conference tweeted this. we want to discuss russia's future with russian opposition leaders and exiled people. their voices need to be heard and amplified. you and tv rain are among those exiled russians.

what is the mood there one year into the war now? >> well, it is very complicated to talk about russia here at the munich security conference. it has been closed. during this three days i was talking to russian liberal dissidents, opposition leaders, representatives of the civil society, and, also, with european politicians and experts and all of them are saying that russia should be relaunched as a country, as a state, that after this invasion of ukraine everything has changed. these people, european, western leaders, are looking for a different approach to russia and are asking themselves the questions about whether it is really possible to see this new country, to see russia as a democrative state, which is not obvious for a lot of people here. so the representatives of russian civil society, all of

them, they are all in exile. they fled the country just as we did. they were trying to explain there is a chance for russia to rebuild a democracy. and i truly believe in this, too. >> so i guess the question is, are you and other exiles outliers or does this speak to a larger issue that many russians are dealing with right now who remained in the country? we saw people flee the country at the start of the war and more fled last year when more military conscripts were announced, about 300,000. that having been said, it has remained quite muted and one can't depend on how people feel in surveys among russian society. what is your take? >> people are speaking about russians who left the country. i think the majority of them are thinking and waiting about the moment when the situation changes, when the regime changes in russia, when they will be able to return back home, just

like we do for example and our colleagues on tv rain. it's wonderful to have an opportunity to work from exile in latvia and the netherlands and georgia but we have our hope, we have russia. but a different russia from what we have after february 24th. and speaking about russian society in russia, russian society is depressed. a lot of people are against this war but they don't have any chance to speak out because it is too dangerous. >> back to you in munich, how significant was it there at the conference to hear vice president harris for the first time say that the united states has formally concluded russia has committed crimes against humanity? >> it is really very important. definitely. everyone was quoting kamala harris and other representatives of the united states. you know the delegation is really big, congressional delegation, representatives from

congress. the people here in munich and especially representatives of ukraine were looking forward to hearing not just statements, however, but also promises about delivering weaponry, the fighting jets, you know, long-range systems to ukraine. and nothing about that has been said. but, still, the accountability is one of the main questions here, really. i mean, what i saw is that everyone was talking about not only the reality but also trying to plan the future and answer the question, how will the world look like and if we want a normal world after this terrible war, then we need to make vladimir putin and others acc accountable for what they did. this is a crime against humanity, crime of aggression, and all of us think there is going to be a tribunal,

something similar to nuremberg and this is one of the main questions here. >> that is post war planning. we have to get the war to end first. it doesn't look like vladimir putin is willing to go to the negotiating table in earnest at this point. what will it take? the russian president has had a hold that has worked in the sense we don't see mass protests on the street. what will it get to get him to say enough is enough? >> well, i think we have several directions. the first direction is the situation on the battle field and the ground and that is what they were saying now about sending weapons to ukraine and vladimir putin is not doing well on the ground in ukraine. also, i think we will see, and that is what experts say, we will see the consequences for the russian economy because of

the sanctions. that is too early to see the consequences that will happen soon. and the third thing, very important, is that the fact that even the polls, which could not be trusted with its digits but we see the trends, the support of the war is becoming lower and lower in russia. people are not happy with the fact that russia is there now and they cannot see any future. i think the world should work in these three directions. first supporting ukraine of course. then sanctions. and then supporting russians who are not supporting this terrible war. >> quickly, let me just talk about what tv rain is doing right now because the russian propaganda remains firm inside the country. i know you are trying to change that and broadcast objective journalism. it is very difficult to do that while you're in exile, while viewers can only find you on

youtube. and that is with a vpn. you've had your own challenges with mistakes you've made on air and have owned those. how are you convinced there is an audience large enough that wants to watch what you have to offer? >> it is important to underline that youtube is still available without vpn in russia. it is eventually, you know, undeniable this ban will be there, of course. we know they will ban youtube some day. but, still, on this stage we can be openly working on youtube for russians and we have 14 million unique viewers monthly only on youtube which is a huge thing. we can do more. we can do twice more. this is a big potential that we have. you know, as long as they give us an opportunity, the whole world, you know, it is an

opportunity to work. we will work. and we can convince people. we see the messages. we hear people talking to us, the audience talking to us. we know that they are against this terrible war and they are supporting democracy. so, yeah. we are optimistic. >> well, it is important to break through to those russian viewers. that is what is going to put the pressure point on vladimir putin for sure. thank you so much for joining us and thank you for what you're doing. well, next on "gps" what is happening on the battle field in ukraine and what is to come ahead? i'll talk to the experts when we come back. was designed to symbe the environments we travel. todaday we unite with the elements that have always been at our cocore. as every actction counts, we are committed to building vehicles that contain an averagege of 40% recycled materials. rerepurposing waste, such as old fishing nets. and, going all electric by 2030.

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western officials say close to 200,000 russians may have been killed or wounded in the last year of fighting in ukraine. ukrainian casualties are estimated around 100,000 not including civilians. after a relatively quiet winter on the front a new russian offensive appears to be under

way in the east. defense secretary lloyd austin says he also expects the ukrainians to mount their own offensive in the spring. which side is better positioned to make gains? joining me is ryan evans founder of the media organization war on the rocks and the host of the russian contingency podcast at war on the rocks and is a research program director in the russia studies program at the think tank cna. thank you both for joining us. you are my go tos on all things war related. i appreciate your time. mike, i'll begin with you. as noted it appears russia's offensive has begun. you believe it will remain largely focused in the east in donbas. as you know there have been reports russia has far greater ambitions perhaps even making another at kyiv. why do you think this offensive will be more muted? >> so i think the offensive actually began several weeks ago and has been in progress for sometime. it's focused on donbas, at least five different axis of attack the russian military is pursuing

right now t appears the war aim remains capturing donbas. in terms of russian military potential it is rather constrained. just looking over the last couple weeks they are having a pretty hard time in this offensive. and have not made significant gains. i likely think it is going to go on through march. although it may increase in overall intensity. it is not clear the russian military has yet committed reserves to try to exploit any one direction they are attacking. >> on that point, ryan, over the past few months there have been changes in military leadership in russia, more conscripts thrown in, as many as 300,000 going back to last september. obviously wagner group is putting conviction into battle as well and -- convicts into battle and talk of even more conscriptions to come. that aside here is how joint chiefs chairman milley characterized the situation this week. he said russia has lost strategically orngs rationally, and tactically. in addition the under secretary

called the new offensive very pathetic. are they right or in your view is that a premature assessment? >> i think the war has clearly been a disaster for russia but russia's theory of victory such as it is is that it can out last the russian coalition backing ukraine. there are some signs that coalition is starting to crack and i think a lot depends especially if the war drags on more what happens in our next election in the united states as well as elections among key european states that are our partners and also backing ukraine. putin thinks he can just out wait that coalition. whether that is true remains to be seen. >> time is perhaps on his side is how he is viewing it at least. mike, what are some of the biggest challenges ukraine is facing right now? >> so for ukraine the challenges right now, how to defend against the russian offensive while keeping a substantial amount of forces in reserve to conduct their own major operation later this spring. as always they are working with issues of force quality. both sides have significant levels of casualties.

as the war goes on you lose your best people, best equipment. so it is a challenge to replace those individuals in order to be capable of conducting offensive operations. i think like any military they face shortages when it comes to equipment or ammunition. if you look over the past year, a lot of western military assistance has been critical but it has come at a point where we're just in time for ukrainian needs rather than leading them. that remains an enduring challenge in this conflict. >> mike, sticking with you, ukraine has finally gained the western takes and that has received a lot of media attention though you view it as more of a symbolic gain for the country. going back to ammunition and air defense ukraine desperately needs, how concerned are you about the quantity that can be delivered and the time in which it can be delivered for ukraine? >> sure. so first and foremost i think air defense, air defense ammunition remain the two priorities for ukraine and everything else is probably secondary relative to that.

in terms of quantities, ukrainian military is an artillery heavy army so requires substantial amounts of artillery ammunition just to sustain the war but especially if going on offense in the spring. same thing for air defense, to make sure the russian air power does not become effective in this conflict at any point. with regards to the military equipment and the assistance package provided in january it will take some months for that equipment to not arrive but for ukrainians to be trained in sufficient quantities. >> there is legitimate concern about the stockpiles available in reserve and western countries and the ability they can be produced in time for ukraine. is russia facing similar shortages and issues? >> russia is absolutely facing similar shortages and issues but unlike the united states russia doesn't have to worry about other fronts and global commitments whereas the united states has to hedge to be able to conduct operations elsewhere for example if china attacks

taiwan. what this has really drawn attention to among my colleagues is how brittle the u.s. industrial base is especially with producing things like artillery, ammunition, even gun powder. a lot of your viewers would be surprised how few facilities actually produce these things in the united states. >> putin has toned down his wildly exaggerated and i would say irresponsible nuclear threats we had heard a few months ago. that having been said, i know you are one to argue we shouldn't dismiss the threat of a tactical nuclear weapon being used. what do you see in the months ahead in terms of the threat assessment that putin could in fact return to that? >> i think putin's strategy is primarily first and foremost driven by his sense of regime security. if he views that security at risk i think he is more likely to take reckless acts. one thing we've seen from putin is he is actually a very poor judge of how his adversaries and even partners like china will react to his risky gambits.

i think he still has a few really bad decisions left in him and he wouldn't put it past him to escalate to low yield nuclear use on the battlefield, not just one, but perhaps several especially if there are major setbacks of russian forces on the battlefield. i think it is a low probability event but something we need to take seriously and not dismiss out of hand. >> the probability is not zero it could take place. mike, it doesn't appear unfortunately this war is going to end any time soon. what will it take for that to happen? i would imagine you agree it is not probably going to be this year. >> i doubt it will take place this year. i mean, major wars of this time tend to cluster broadly in two categories. ultimately either rather short lasting a few months or if they go on this long they typically go on for at least several years. what will it take for the war to end? that is a difficult question to answer. it can range anything from the ukrainian military success to a

more pessimistic variant where at the end of the day what emerges is some sort of unhappy stalemate on the battlefield. or, to be perfectly frank, the way the war could progress is that the ending doesn't resolve any of the fundamental issues in this war. this war is a continuation of the war of the original russian invasion of ukraine. and how it ends could potentially result in yet another war. often the conflicts go in series when neither party is able to attain what they want. so the folks who push for an early negotiation, perhaps, a contrived armistice of some kind, on one hand it is a laudable pursuit but at this stage it is clear it would most likely result in russia trying to rearm and then pursuing the war yet again. so an artificial peace is very likely to yield to yet another war. >> you're right to point out this war didn't start as many people may think last year. it started several years prior

to that. mike kofman and ryan thank you for your time. i look forward to your future conversations in podcasts. >> thanks for having us. up next on "gps" another country caught in putin's cross hairs. i'll tell you which one when we come back. [ tires squeal, crash ]] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you rigight bk to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] - [announcer] payroll takes too long. at least it used to. now, there's roll, the app that makes payroll as easy as sending a text.

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i want to tell you now about a country many fear may be the next in vladimir putin's sites. on friday secretary of state blinken concerned deep concerns about russian plots to destabilize the government, a small poor nation to the southwest of ukraine that holds within it a russian backed separatist region. the nation is muldova and happens to be my birth place. what in the world is going on there? let's bring in muldovan journalists to explain. let's get a sense of what happened in the past few weeks.

last week president zelenskyy provided intelligence and shared evidence with the president of muldova of an attempted russian plot for a coup to overthrow the government there. just this past weekend she gave more evidence and said that was indeed the case. she described it as a hybrid warfare aimed to destabilize society. can you give us any more insight? >> yes. the president mentioned that the plot would involve people with military preparation, some of them from abroad in order to provoke violence and break into state institutions and take hostages during opposition protests here. also zelenskyy's adviser confirmed this kind of details saying that actually russia's new plan for moldova does not involve tanks but bandits.

by this he means the kind of leader of the opposition of the pro kremlin party who stands accused for money laundering in moldova and has fled to israel. meanwhile his party in moldova is organizing mass protests. we just had one today. >> what makes this even more concerning we should note is the moldovan current government is pro western. do we know if the coup attempt has been thwarted successfully? >> state institutions over the past week have talked about not allowing about 60 foreign citizens into the country, some of them, they said, had forged papers with different names and

nationalities. and more police have been patrolling the streets and the kind of ministry of internal affairs released this kind of plan for bomb shelters in case of any kind of emergency. it does feel like state institutions have intensified both their actions and communications. >> russia has become a candidate for eu status and moldova has become a candidate for eu status. it is a very vulnerable, poor country. i believe the military defense budget is just around $80 million a year. i know that led to a lot of internal strife as well and economic challenges. inflation is about 27%. what is a bigger threat? is it the domestic issues regarding the economy or is it the external threat perhaps from moscow? >> the two are interlinked.

so at the moment of course people are more concerned with their day-to-day economic struggles. at the same time kind of pro kremlin opposition is trying to capitalize on these economic issues. they are asking the government to pay 100% of the winter bills and so on and obviously if a pro european government in muldova was replaced with pro kremlin one, then moldova would be used in the war against ukraine by russia because obviously we also have the breakaway region access where 1500 russian troops are stationed and 20,000 tons of ammunition, soviet era ammunition is still stored. >> to this point russia is still providing moldova with gas and about 70% of electricity comes from the breakaway region, that pro russian region, as well.

i know western allies have been quick to come to moldova's response and provide more aid. is it enough to get moldova to finally leave russia's grasp and perhaps join eu? >> so foreign aid has been helpful in compensating people's bills this winter but they weren't compensated up to 100% that protests today were demanding. the government is saying that they want to invest in more green energy and diversify our gas and electricity kind of sources. inflation at the moment is still sort of the highest in europe and people are struggling to pay their mortgages, to pay their bills, to cover their basic

costs and people that i have spoken to have said they're thinking of emigrating. we already have a problem with very few kind of human resources here, bigger diaspora looking for more economic opportunities outside moldova in the eu. >> is there any concern as russia has launched its new offensive it could take a military action against moldova? i know there had been fear of that early in the war. >> yeah, there is a saying in moldova that we depend on odesa and odesa depend on mykolaiv but we also have the south that is vulnerable. so far moldova has been

protected by the ukrainian army and the fact the ukrainian army managed to move the front line further west has kind of appeased spirits in moldova. people have become calmer as a result. obviously we are following the situation closely and hope for the best. we have a large number of ukrainian refugees here in moldova and, you know, to them there is an obvious difference between ukraine and moldova at the moment. but, still, people are anxious. >> i just have to say as an american born in moldova it has been so heart warming to see how generous that country has been, a country of a few million people, very poor country taking in hundreds of thousands of refugees. paula, thank you so much for your reporting. we appreciate it. >> thank you. up next on "gps" the

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don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good. secretary of state blinken says in a meeting yesterday with his chinese counterpart he condemned the incursion of the prc surveillance balloon and stressed it must never happen again. that balloon captivated the attention of the u.s. government, media, and american public. but my next guest reminds us the threat from china runs far deeper than spy balloons. an adviser to the u.s. security and intersecurity agency and is the author of "this is how they tell me the world ends" out this week in paperbook. thank you so much and welcome back to the program. what is the whole balloon saga? >> i think this is just the most visible aspect of an ongoing

threat that i and others have been covering cyber security and cyber threats have been tracking for more than a decade. it clearly forced a pretty confrontational u.s. response and now we are seeing china call this hysterical, saying they over reacted, they are still maintaining this was a weather balloon. but, clearly. this was a surveillance operation. the key thing to remember is that china has been hacking our intellectual property, our personal data. government agencies and workers for more than a decade and it is really important americans understand the breadth and depth of those efforts. >> given those capabilities including more sophisticated satellites, which orbit the earth, why would china resort to a balloon? >> i think that is the big question. forever really, over a decade ago the description of chinese cyber threats at least was they're not as sophisticated as

russia. they're certainly brazen in these efforts and occasionally sloppy but effective. over ten years ago they were hitting us with spear phishing e-mails. if you knew what to look for you could catch them but often times they were just as effective. really the key of china's cyber espionage operations was just that they were brazen. they didn't bother to hide these efforts. the same is true i think with these balloons. clearly, someone messed up here because this was so visible it forced a very public u.s. response that broke off talks between blinken and his counterparts in china and now we are dealing with the fallout. >> so is the u.s. capable and prepared to take on and fight back against some of these other threats that the china poses, perhaps much more sophisticated? not a balloon, not something that you can see, but something that is just as dangerous?

>> well, i think we've seen china hack our pipelines for instance. a little over a year ago the government declassified its findings that china has been implanting itself in our network of pipelines not for intellectual property theft but to maintain a foothold in the event they would ever need to do something to those pipelines in the event of some larger geo political conflict say over taiwan. we've seen them hacking our businesses for years. i always say if you could see a balloon over every american corporation hacked by china americans would be flabbergasted. we've seen them hack our personal data. they hacked the office of personal management several years ago which is where everyone submits their application who wants a security clearance. we saw them make off with tens of millions of fingerprints for every american government worker who sought a security clearance. we've seen them hack equifax,

anthem, marriott, aviation companies, ostensibly building out this large, personal data base of americans' personal information. in the beginning i think the theory was that they could cross match which american government workers are traveling and staying in the same place as chinese citizens as a counterintelligence effort to root out chinese spies. but it has gotten much more broad than that. >> president biden has tried to avoid thwarting a relationship already at its lowest point in years and said he is planning to speak with president xi in the near term. we saw secretary of state blinken speak with his counterpart over the weekend. the president is this is a relationship that should be driven by competition and not another cold war. is that realistic at this point? >> i think there is still hope for that. i think covid had a huge

downward effect on this relationship. we are just starting to see china open up. in the meantime, the relationship has been frosty at best. i think occasionally the u.s. government feels the need to confront china on this theft very publicly. they did so during the obama administration with intellectual property theft and actually what was interesting was they threatened xi jinping they would announce sanctions on china ahead of his first visit to the white house. when he arrived at the white house they would announce sanctions just for china's intellectual property theft. and just the threat of sanctions and that embarrassment caused china to agree to cut it out when it came to stealing american trade secrets. that agreement actually stuck for about 18 months until trump came in with some of the rhetoric on the trade war and all bets were off. since then we've seen china

resume its intellectual property theft though it has gone pretty far underground. i think the balloon really forced this issue back into the open. the question is, what will we do beyond black listing some of the aerospace companies and technology companies that went into china's surveillance operation vis-a-vis the balloon? >> yeah. those were three companies and we've also instituted export controls and the trump tariffs are still in place as well. thank you so much. we appreciate your time. >> thank you so much. well, up next on "gps" the latest from syria where the earthquake was a catastrophe on top of a catastrophe. ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a smsmall business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living g the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪

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nearly two weeks ago a 7.8 magnitude earthquake struck near

gazientep, couricy. aftershocks could be felt as far as jordan, iraq, and israel but the greatest damage occurred in southeastern turkey in northern syria where entire city streets were leveled as people slept in the early hours of february 6th. in turkey aid has been rushing in to help the badly battered communities there. but across the border in syria there's barely been a trickle of relief. after 12 years of a brutal civil war the country remains largely cut off from the rest of the world. prevented the life saving aid from reaching those in need, i'm joined by a senior policy adviser to samantha power who focused on syria wn she was u.s. ambassador to the united nations. thank you so much fog us. what is the situation on the ground right now? >> thank you for having me. i am a syrian american. i was born and raised in damascus and it is very painful to think of what the syrian

people are still enduring after a decade of war. in the northwest of the country an area brutalized by the civil war primarily because of ongoing bombings and starvation of the regime and its allies including russia. you have a region of 4 million people, half of them children, who have been essentially almost cut off from the rest of the world and now endure this massive, massive earthquake. assistance was very slow to get in. the united nations took almost a week to start delivering support. and the reasons really come down to the fact that russia as a member of the security council has prevented the united nations from accessing the region except for one road. assistance that has been flowing through the regime over 70 aircrafts landed in damascus after the earthquake are prevented by the syrian regime from crossing into the northwest because it is under opposition control. and that has really contributed

and exacerbated an already dire humanitarian situation >> i was reading accounts from those there in the early hours of the earthquake thinking it was just another bombing and not even realizing it was an earthquake. that just gives you a sense of what life was like for them prior to this earthquake. it truly is a tragedy upon a tragedy. can you explain specifically how the civil war, itself, has impacted aid going into the area? >> what you have is when the revolution began in 2012, the government and its allies, the iranian, russian government, lebanese hezbollah mounted a scorch earth campaign against anyone who opposed them and over time were able to really defeat the revolution in most of syria except for this northwestern pocket of the country. there was a time when the regime would surround towns and starve them and force the people living there to move into this pocket. today you have this area now

that is home to 4 million people as i mentioned half of whom have already been displaced and the infrastructure has been severely damaged because of over a decade of conflict. >> the question, then, turns to how come aid can go into war battered ukraine, given that russia launched this war against ukraine, that aid can go there but can't get into syria. >> a very good question. really the united nations unfortunately has failed in this moment before the syrian people and i am afraid there is a very bad precedent being set for the rest of the globe whereby, you know, the syrian regime does not control these border crossings. turkey and the opposition do. so the united nations is choosing -- choosing to accept russia's dictates as well as assad and not move across the border. independent organizations, some

countries have been sending aid to the borders but the united nations and leadership has chosen not to until bashar assad and russia allow them to. that is really dangerous. recently that is exactly what happened. they waited until the russian government allowed opening of two additional crossings for three months and one should ask themselves why is the government that is caring for its people only allowing the u.n. to access a severely hit area for three months and that tells you everything you need to know about the nature of the government in damascus as well as what is happening in the united nations when it comes to these issues. >> that access point requires u.n. security council approval every six months. this was the deal set up prior to this earthquake. you have vladimir putin and bashar al assad saying the aid should just come through syria and damascus itself. is there any sense that there is a possibility that could actually happen, that they could follow through on what they say is what they are offering?

>> there is a possibility that is zero. i would offer that. the history of the conflict is for 12 years the syrian regime has manipulated aid especially u.n. aid. there has been a plethora of reporting and one recently that cited over a hundred million dollars ended up in the regime affiliated organizations and designated entities close to bashar al assad through the united nations. already the good will support that's flown into damascus by many countries including western countries as well as arab countries is ending up on the black market in regime held areas. i am afraid the regime is capitalizing on this moment of crisis to fulfill its objective of coming out of the pressure points put on it to limit its death and destruction that it rained on its people and it might be succeeding at that. >> you made that point so clear. politics aside this is a humanitarian crisis and this is the right thing to do to bring aid to these people there right

now. thank you so much. we appreciate your time. >> thank you for having me. that is it for us today. fareed will be back here next sunday morning. you can catch him posting a very important town hall thursday night to mark the first anniversary of russia's war in ukraine. he will be joined by national security adviser jake sullivan and usaid administrator samantha power. the two officials will take live questions from people in kyiv and in washington. you don't want to miss it. 9:00 p.m. eastern on thursday night right here on cnn. in the meantime thank you so much for joining me today. xxxx today we uninite with the elements that have always been at our core. as every action coununts, we are committed to buildlding vehicles that contain an average of 40%% recycled materials. repurposining waste, such as old fishing nets. and, going all electric by 2030. land. sea. air. join us on our journey to a more sustainable future. i brought in ensure max protein

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