>> i'm going to move this to approximately 2456 . [ inaudible ] >> correction, 1228. >> making him go get his blood pressure checked. his sweet had swollen up recently. so it was a big huge deal. >> okay. >> you know, coming around the house fora little while, i knew that maggie went to the kennels.

i don't know exactly where paul went, but he left the house, too. >> okay. how did maggie get down there? >> i don't know exactly. but on normal occasions, she would drive, drive a buggy, drive a four wheeler, or very common for her to walk. >> okay. how about paul? >> paul wasn't much of a walker, but he would use all of the others. >> okay. >> i mean, could be any way, you know? i don't know exactly. i wish i could help you with that. >> so they left and went down to the kennels? >> well, maggie went to go to the kennels? >> and paul left? >> i'm assuming paul left, because, you know, of what happened. i assume paul went to the kennel. >> and what did you do once maggie and paul left?

>> i stayed in the house. i was watching tv, looking at my phone, and i actually fell asleep on the couch. >> okay. >> what time did you woke up? >> i don't know exactly what time, but when you will get my phone, i think one of the first things i did when i got up was call maggie because i was going to my mom's. and i know i texted her, because i checked my phone. what time did we say the text was, jim? like 9:06? >> i've got it written down. >> you know, i texted her -- so i called her just before that. and i mean, she didn't answer at that point. umm, i left to go to my mom's. >> okay. >> y'all will just have to look. i'm not sure if -- >> and that's why we're trying

to do this, so we can narrow down times and everything. >> that was pretty much all lies, wasn't it? >> the part about me not being at the kennel was a lie. >> also not knowing that paul went down there, not being sure, that was a lie. you're putting some detail on this thing. >> not knowing when paul left -- everything about me not going to the kennel was a lie. >> you're able to just do that. >> tyou say that so naturally ad convincingly, don't you? [ inaudible ]

it's an odd story. >> y'all have any good clues? >> so we're trying to put a rush on that to get an answer quick. and hoping that's going to tell us something. >> is it things you think are going to be helpful? >> well, like the shot shells out there, the casings, the dna swabs that we look from the door handle to see if anybody touched the door handles, any other places we think somebody may have touched while they were out there, you know, we're trying to collect dna from that and analyze that. which had the conclusion to

this, what i'm going to ask is if we get a dna swab from you. your dna is going to be there, but we need to eliminate it once it's developed. so we don't need -- [ inaudible ] >> that's no problem. >> we have talked to close to 100 people, trying to track people down. we're still tracking people down. and that's why who paul was with -- >> i want to tell you one thing while i'm thinking about it. paul was really an incredibly in induetive little dude. i mean, he was like a little detective. >> he was like a little detective, is that what you said? >> that is what i said. and he was very intuitive like i said. >> and that was what marion described as maggie's term for

how he was in keeping tabs on your pill usage, wasn't that correct? >> that was what maggie said about him. >> for some reason you decided to bring that up in this interview, didn't you? >> i mean, that was a trait of paul's personality. i think anybody who knew him would tell you how intuitive he was. >> for the record, i'm at 46:30. >> i want to thank y'all very much. you don't have to call me mister.

>> when you and paul went back to the house, ms. maggie is there. you said you laid down and took a little death. when you got up, maggie and paul was gone. or did they leave when you laid down? >> i believe that -- i'm not sure. >> but they weren't there when you woke up around 9:00 or so when you made a call to maggie? >> no. nobody was in that house when i left. >> the last time that paul -- you saw paul and maggie is when

you were eating supper? >> yes, sir. >> your answer was yes, sir? >> that's correct.

>> i'm about to go to the august 2021 interview. but between that june 10th interview and the august interview, you were not working very much, is that correct, if at all? >> no, i definitely wasn't working very much. i think i was working a little bit, but no, not very much at all.

>> did you go to johnny parker to borrow $250,000 in order to cover the fees? >> i did. >> you did? >> i did. >> did you tell him what that was for? >> no, i did not tell him what that was for. >> did you go to russell at the bank and get $350,000 in order to help cover some of the funds you had taken to send to chris wilson? >> i did. >> did you get those fees before you signed any paperwork or documentation? >> i heard testimony about that in this case, but i can't tell you the specifics of that. >> okay. you don't recall that? >> do i recall when i signed paperwork? no, sir. >> you don't recall you got the

money a month before you signed the paper work? >> no, sir, i don't recall that. i'm not disputing that, but i don't recall it. >> all right. did you go to your best friend, chris wilson, and convince him to cover $192,000, the remaining $192,000, in order for him to send that email to your law firm as if those fees had been there all along. >> i spoke to chris wilson and did not have the full amount of the fees, and i got chris wilson to put the remaining fees in his trust account. >> when you did that, you didn't tell him the truth about your life, you just asked him to cover you? >> i did not tell him. >> he agreed to do that because of his belief in who he thought you were? >> he agreed to do that for whatever reason. i assume that was a big part of it.

>> and once that $600,000 was transferred, chris wilson sent an email to you saying those fees have been there -- were in his trust account, correct? >> that is correct. >> and then you forwarded that email, correct? >> i know i forwarded it to jeannie and i heard the testimony about forwarding it to lee, so i believe that's correct. [ inaudible ] >> because at that time, there were limitations on how much i could borrow because max was

passed. and so i was limited. i couldn't get a loan against mozel and had to get a loan against palmeadow state. >> going to the third interview. >> all right. i'm going to go to 1745.

>> apparently having some technical difficulties . >> again, you repeated the same lies over and over again? >> i did. >> effortlessly and convincingly? >> i don't know about that. >> i can see you there. >> i agree with that. >> nobody yelled at me. >> nobody -- none of these guys were ever discourteous to me. >> nobody what? >> i said none of those guys

were ever discourteous to me. you made a comment earlier that david owens was mean, and he was never mean to me. >> all right. but you decided to lie in part because you distrusted david owen? >> i distrusted in general, and i particularly distrusted who i thought was david owen at the time. >> okay. >> who turned out to not be david owen. >> i want to be clear. you're saying now that you thought this -- this had something to do with greg alexander ten years ago? >> no, sir. and i'm not saying that now. the person that i saw and watched in greg alexander's trial that was cheer to me was just -- it was -- it was terrible what they did to greg alexander.

and the person who was responsible for that was a guy named david. i'm not going to get into his last name. i thought that david owen that night was that guy. later, down the road, and it was a while, i checked into that, and i found out that it was not david owens. >> we spent a lot of time going through that first segment. you're saying that you were thinking this was a completely different guy the whole time, and that was on your mind during that whole interview? >> yes. at the time, i thought that david owens -- no, i didn't think david owens was a different person. i thought david owens was the person my dad and i had watched just -- my dad and i truly thought evidence was manufactured and i thought it was david owen, and i was wrong about that. but that's what i thought that

night. >> any other factors or details you want to add? >> i'm going to answer any question you have. do you have any more questions? >> i mean any more about your decision to lie. let's get it all out now. >> if you have any questions, i will be glad to answer them, sir. >> tell me about the replacement blackout. you initially told law enforcement you weren't sure whether or not there was one, correct? >> oh, no, sir, you're absolutely wrong about that. >> what did you say then? >> shortly after this, it became being told that paul's gun had been stolen, and the one you heard about being stolen from the thing, and i'm not sure how

i learned this, but i learned that somebody -- i believe sled had gone to john bettingfield, who made those guns, and could only find paperwork for two blackouts. one of which they were saying was stolen in '17. that's what they were telling me. and i was certain and told them that i was certain that there was a third one. >> initially, on june 8th and 10th, or june 10th you were saying that you thought you all had replaced it, then you said you did replace it. >> i don't believe that's correct. >> did you say to law enforcement, the replacement blackout had gone missing in christmas of 2020? >> it did go missing christmas of 2020. >> so you're telling them that had been missing six months prior? did you tell law enforcement that gun had been missing since

christmastime? >> i told law enforcement when we looked for it at christmas time, we could not find it. >> okay. >> and that was -- that was accurate. we looked for it, when we were trying to shoot hogs when we had a group of people out there, and we could not find it. >> but you now know that it was there as late as turkey season? >> no, sir. i know that will loving and paw-paw had it right before turkey season, like will testified to. >> so it was around? >> it was around there at some point in time, yes, sir. >> so you're saying it got stolen a second time or you just don't know? >> no, i'm not -- >> the 12-year-old stole it a second time? >> i never said a 12-year-old stole any gun. >> who stole it the second time? >> i don't know that it was

stolen. i just know when we looked for it at christmastime, we couldn't find it. i know this, i know i hadn't seen that gun in a long time. i've heard the testimony that people who were at my house usin using guns and hunting with us all the time, rogan, buster, they didn't -- i can't remember about buster, but it was several people who didn't know that gun had been replaced. that tells me that gun did not stay where our regular guns were. i know that i didn't see it there. and that tells me that they didn't see it there. >> of course you didn't see it there, because it's missing, right, mr. murdaugh? >> ask that question again. >> the circumstance for your latest story is it's got to be missing, as well? you told law enforcement it was missing at christmastime. now we've had testimony at this

tr trial, and now you are claiming you never saw it, it must have been kept somewhere else. where could it have been kept? >> it could have been kept anywhere, mr. waters, the way guns were handled around there. i was terrible about that. >> you were terrible about that. >> i should have been stricter. >> but you know that third gun was fired right outside the gun room door in turkey season of 2021, correct? >> i know that now. based on what will said. >> you know it was also fired across the street around that same time, don't you? >> no, sir, i don't know that. i would assume that it was fired at the shooting range, but i have no -- i don't have any reason to believe it was done in close proximity to that time .

>> a few months go by. a couple months go by. and you get confronted about your thefts from the law firm, correct? >> september of '21. >> and unlike june 7th, when jeannie confronted you, this time they had unsailable evidence, correct? >> that's correct. they had -- >> no wiggling out of this one, correct?

>> i didn't try to wiggle out of this one. >> well, you've been wiggling before, right? you wiggled when you stole your brother's money twice, correct? >> well, i admit almost all of these things, but that's one of the things i take dispute with. >> which one? >> that i stole that money that you're referring to. >> you're going to dispute that? tell me why you dispute cashing that check twice. >> i don't dispute cashing that check twice. >> but you will tell this jury you accidently didn't realize you were supposed to be receiving some $125,000 check two times? how many $120,000 checks did you receive? >> i got that check -- and this is several months after. i mean, you can look at my

finances and you can see how i was doing. i didn't balance a checkbook. but the fact of the matter is, when i got that check, i asked about it. i was told mistakenly that it was for me, that i had done participated in that year-end thing which i did sometimes. apparently a new check got cashed. i cashed that check. then a year later -- >> where did you keep that for a year? >> i don't know where it was. it was obviously in my desk -- >> so you found it in your desk? >> no, i didn't find it. >> you said it was obviously in your desk. so you remember finding it in your desk? >> no, i remember when we -- >> did you go to finance and say i just found this year-old check, is this right? >> no. >> you took it to the bank, didn't you? >> no, sir, i didn't. >> your honor, object, not

allowing mr. murdaugh to answer the question. >> when this came up, when this came up, that's no way that i can have a check in our law firm with the way accounting is, and that i can cash a check twice and think that -- that's impossible. so to cash a check that's already been checked, there's no question it's going to throw that off. we used to get a rent check, i would have checks and they would pile up. the small checks. that check got mixed in and it got sent to the bank and it got deposited. >> keep going. >> and that was a year after. but i do dispute that i stole that money. that money. >> all right. you brought it up, so any of the

other money you dispute stealing? >> no, sir. you brought it up, i was just telling you that is the one i disputed. >> all right. you heard others testify about that, correct? >> i heard ronnie and mark testify about what they thought about it, yes, sir. quick break. we'll return to cross-examination in a minute. r to youour new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving a and storage team.

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we're going to take you back to the courtroom in south carolina for the testimony of alex murdaugh. >> and the lie that you told of an unknown assailant was to try to make people think that the quote "real bad guys were back again to finish the job." isn't that true? >> no, sir, that's not true. >> that's not the effect you intended that story to have? did it have that effect on people that you knew? isn't that the exact effect that it had? >> i don't -- i don't -- i don't think there's many people that believe that, no, sir. i know the people -- i mean, the people that were closest to me didn't believe that. >> bad things happened, isn't

that true? >> bad things happened? what do you mean by "bad things?" >> june 7th happened, september 4th happened. >> i don't believe that june the 7th happened because accountability issues were at my doorstep. now, i do believe in september that i tried to get a man to help me kill myself because issues were at my doorstep. >> every time -- i'm sorry, for the first time in your life, of privilege and prominence and wealth, when you were facing accountability, each time suddenly you became a victim and

everyone ran to your aid. isn't that true? >> i mean, i disagree with that. >> it's extraordinary provocation, isn't that true -- >> you seem to be implying june th and seventh in talking about accountability issues. to me, those two things are totally different. there were no accountability issues on my doorstep on june 7th. >> that's what you say. >> and in september -- >> not what other people say. >> -- i was trying to -- well, no. there have been a lot of people -- in september, that wasn't

designed to gain me sympathy, that was designed for me to not be here, because i didn't want my son to have to deal with the wake of the things i had done. >> that's not the story you told. the story that came out of your mouth right away was the story of you getting attacked by some unknown assailant while you were trying to change a tire. that's the story you told. >> that is the story i told, but that's because the man who shot me did not shoot me that day as i intended. and i had to have a story as to how i got shot, so i lied. >> and you're saying people in your family and your friends didn't instantly believe that whoever these 12-year-old marauders were, were back to finish the job? >> you keep using -- >> it happened two hours after

you had been confronted by chris wilson. >> i think probably some people may have thought that when it first happened. but i think randy, ronnie, mark, those guys, i think they knew very quickly that this was not -- i think they knew this was something i had done . >> shame for you is an extraordinary provocation, isn't it, mr. murdaugh? >> shame for me is an extraordinary provocation? i don't like to be shamed. >> the prospect of humiliating the legacy is an extraordinary

provocation to you, isn't it, mr. murdaugh? >> what do you mean by an extraordinary provocation? >> it affects you deeply? it's your biggest concern, is it not? >> no, that's not my biggest concern. >> you're a middle abled man, like me. >> i'm 54 years old. i'm not sure. you look like you're in better shape than me, so, i don't know. >> i was a couple of years behind you in law school, but we never knew each other, did we? >> i never knew you, no, sir. >> you've had a very successful career up until this point? >> you know, the answer to that is no, mr. waters. i was an addict for more than 20 years. >> so making millions of dollars over a decade is not having a

successful career, is that what you're saying? >> no, that's not a successful career. when you -- >> okay. i -- >> let me just -- >> go ahead. >> you know, it may have been what you perceive as a successful career. but, you know, i was the one who was fighting that. you don't have a very high self-esteem when you're an addict. so i don't deem myself a success. >> would you agree that at least outwardly you were perceived as successful? >> i made a bunch of money, if that's what you want to get at. >> i'm asking about the perception. you were perceived as a

prominent, powerful lawyer. >> i tried to be. i sure tried to be. >> lived the life of possessing authority? >> possessing authority? >> yeah, you saw the badges, you just admitted your prominence in the legal community. >> i don't think that i lived a life of possessing authority. i never saw myself as that way. >> you don't think you lived a life of privilege? >> i think i was very privileged. >> as we move to june of 2021, you were suffering from a drug addiction? >> absolutely. >> your father was terminally ill? >> when? >> as we move to june of 2021? >> no, sir. >> he was very ill. >> he was very ill.

>> and you were coming to a point of financial crisis? >> i -- i was -- i was having financial issues like i had had many times in the past. >> mr. murdaugh, are you aannio? >> like, did i shoot my wife and my son? >> yes. >> no! i would never hurt maggie murdaugh. i would never hurt paul murdaugh. under any circumstances. >> you say that.

>> excuse me? >> you say that, but you lied to maggie, didn't you? >> i did lie to maggie. >> you lied to paul? >> sometimes. >> you lied to your father? >> i'm sure i did at some point. >> did you tell him all the stuff you had been up to before he died? >> no, i didn't tell him. >> did you lie to your brothers? >> about financial things? >> yes. >> i would have lied to randy at some point, i'm sure. >> did you lie to him about the last time you saw your wife and son alive? >> i did. >> did you lie to their wives? >> i'm sure i did. >> did you lie to marion proctor? >> yes. >> did you lie to bart proctor?

>> yes. >> did you lie to your best friend, chris wilson? >> probably. >> did you lie to your other friend when you took his money? >> no, sir. not -- i didn't lie like i told you, i didn't lie directly to him. i lied to him by omission, like we talked about. he was -- i didn't talk to him. i didn't see him at that time. >> did you lie to your law partners? >> i did. >> did you lie to them about the kennels? >> some of them. >> did you lie to mark ball? >> yeah, i believe based on what mark said, i believe i did. >> did you lie to ronnie crosby? >> according to what he said, i believe i did. >> did you lie to johnny parker? >> i don't believe i ever discussed that with johnny.

>> did you lie to him about the finances when you borrowed that money in july of 2021? >> umm, i don't know if i lied to him about -- johnny -- i don't think johnny asked me. i don't think i had to lie to johnny about that, so i don't know. >> well, you certainly didn't disclose the truth when you borrowed that $250,000? >> i didn't tell him what it was for. >> didn't you say not telling the whole truth is the same as telling a lie? >> sure, it is. i'm just saying -- i'm not taking issue with that, but i don't know that johnny and i -- johnny loned me money numerous times. it wasn't a discussion where he wanted to know what i was doing with it. that discussion would have been, i needed it. johnny was always willing to help me, and that would have been the conversation. so on that specific event, did i

lie to him? i don't know? >> and he ended being out $477,000, didn't he? >> he ended up being out of a lot of money. >> thank you for your qualifications as to that. did you lie to lee koch? >> i don't know. i don't know if lee koch was around when i said that or not. >> did you lie to danny henderson? >> i did lie to danny. >> did you lie to jeannie cessinger? >> about finances, yes, i did. >> you never talked to her about the kennels? >> no, i wouldn't think so. >> did you lie to annette griswold? >> i did. >> did you lie to christy gerald, your parallel? >> i don't believe we discussed -- i would have at some point, i'm sure. >> did you lie to michael gunn? >> i'm sure i did at some point, but michael wasn't involved in

any of this. i don't know that any of this ever came up with michael. >> did you lie to your clients? >> i did. >> natasha thomas? >> i don't know that i dealt with her but i simply lied about that. >> arthur badger? >> i did. >> the plouler girls? >> i'm not sure i talked specifically to them, but i lied about that. >> dion martin. >> i lied to dion. >> johnny bush? >> yes. >> emanuel pristiani? >> i didn't have any conversations with him, but i certainly lied about it. >> jamie risher? >> yes. >> randy drauding? >> yes. >> jordan jinx? >> yes. >> mary duncan? >> yes.

>>ed a dreeiana hays? >> yes. >> angel gary? >> yes. >> alisa mallory? >> yes. >> thomas moore? >> no. >> you never lied to him? you just took his money, you never had to lie to his face is what you are saying? >> he and i never had a conversation, but i did take that money. >> did you lie to tony satterfield a couple months before june 7th? you saw the text. you want me to get it out? >> just remind me what it was. >> i show you what's been marked as 463. >> i don't remember the exact date. >> that was in april of 2021, is that right? >> another quick break. we'll return to cross-examination in a moment.

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before the xfinity 10g network, we didn't have internet that let us play all at once. every device? in every room? why are you up here? when i was your age, we couldn't stream a movie when the power went out. you're only a year older than me. you have no idea how good you've got it. huh? what a time to be alive. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. the future starts now. okay. we're going to take you back to the south carolina courtroom. >> you lied to everyone about the side of the road that people that came to stop and help, the 911 and ryan kelly and the

composite sketch artist and all them, correct? >> i lied to a lot of people about that. >> you know why people lie, mr. murdaugh? because they know they have done something wrong. >> for the most time, i did. >> you have been able to lie easy and quickly and convincingly if you think it will save your skin for well over a decade. isn't that true? >> i have lied well over a decade. >> and you want this jury to believe a story manufactured to fit the evidence that you brought forth just yesterday after hearing this trial's testimony? >> no, sir, that's not correct.

>> mr. murdaugh, we went through this for a while. you remember in the beginning of your testimony, i asked you whether or not you agree d that trying to explain your presence on the kennel video was the most important part of your testimony before this jury, do you remember that? you said, not the most important. i said was it the at least important? do you recall that from yesterday? >> i recall you asking those questions, yes, sir. >> you agree that it's important? >> i agree that it is an important component. i think there's a lot of important components. >> and you testified yesterday, during cross yesterday and cross

today, it's kind of evolved on the -- on the factors that led you to decide to lie at some point during that interview with david owen, correct? >> i disagree with that. i don't think those factors have evolved. i mean, you have asked some more specific questions, but those factors are still the same factors. you may have asked questions and dwayned a little more detail, but those factors have not changed. >> it was the done paranoia, the fact that your law partners and gregalexander and the sheriff were telling you that you needed a lawyer before you talked to the police. you got into the car with david owen and thought he was somebody else from some case ten years ago, correct? >> that believing david owens was the person involved in the case that i talked about was one of the factors that caused me to distrust sled.

>> and also you said that they started asking you about your relationship with maggie and paul, correct? >> that was certainly something that contributed to me having paranoid thinking.

>> are we good ? >> the daniel green body cam video of 2026. >>. >> they are dead, aren't they? >> yes, sir. that's what it looks like. >> i mean -- [ inaudible ]. >> all right. the police are here now. the police are here now.

that's my brother. >> okay. >> when was the last time you were here with them or talked to them or anything like that? >> it was earlier tonight. i don't know the exact time. >> okay. >> i left. i was starting to go an hour and a half to my woman's and saw them about 45 minutes before that. >> that was sergeant green, correct? >> yeah, that was sergeant green. >> at that point in time, sled was not there, no one had gotten gsr from you, your law partners or sheriff hill were not there? >> that's correct. >> no one had asked you about your relationships. david owen was not there.

>> that's correct. >> but you still told the same lie and all those reasons that you just gave this jury about the most important part of your testimony was a lie too. isn't that true, mr. murdaugh? >> i disagree with that. >> nothing further. >> ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a break now. please do not discuss the case. >> and we have just been listening to what appears to be the prosecution wrapping its cross-examination of alex murdaugh and his murder trial. let's bring back dianne gallagher outside the in south carolina, with us. jean casarez and legal analyst joey jackson with us. defense attorney misty marist,

to you first since you're new to this conversation on this program, talk about what you heard from the prosecution specifically at the end wrapping it up once again reiterating just about to everybody in murdaugh's life, he had lied to. >> yeah. really, really strong ending by the prosecution, especially since murdaugh has qualified that lie, that very critical lie, of not being down by the kennels, a calculated lie he repeated over and over again. he's offered several excuses why he came up with that lie. the prosecutor went through each and every reason that he went through in his testimony, and then brought that hammer down by saying, well in this conversation, none of that other stuff had even happened yet. so you decided to lie from that moment. look, in this case, now that murdaugh has come clean, you know, if you believe his story, and said, i was down by the

kennels, but i left shortly thereafter, and he's asking the jury to believe him now, despite the fact that he's repeatedly lied and boxed himself in to a very, very short timeline, i think the prosecutor did a really good idea of putting him to task to specify that timeline, and also showing look, this guy has given every excuse but continues to lie and, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, he's lying to you today. >> jean, to you. what stood out to you in the last segment we heard from creighton waters in the cross examination? >> well, it was powerful, and i think we now fully understand why he's focused so much on these financial crimes, because he's trying to show, as misty said, that you've lied to everyone in your life and professionally for decades, and you then lied that you were not down at the kennels, so the jury should not believe you and the net result is, you were down

there exactly when the murders happened and so you're guilty. and that's what he's trying to leave the jury with, because the -- if you're down there, there's nobody else down there and that's when the iphones locked for the very last time. they were murdered right at that time. and that's what his focus is. >> all right. our coverage will continue. i want to thank our guests for joining us this hour. "the lead with jake tapper" starts right after this short break. and effortlessly responds to both of f you. our smart sleepers get 28 minutes m more restful sleep per night. proven qualility sleep. only from sleep number. for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are positive for acetylcholine receptor antibodies, it may feel like t world is moving without you. but the picture is changing, . in a clinical trial, participants achieved improved daily abilities with vyvgart added to their current treatment.

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a farmers home policy for twelve consecutive months, right? ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ all right. welcome to "the lead." i'm john berman in for jake. we have been watching the dramatic cross-examination of alex murdaugh, the disgraced south carolina lawyer, charged with murder in the deaths of his wife and son. now much of today's questioning focused on the timeline of the day when these two people were killed. he was repeatedly questioned, alex murdaugh was, o