internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities. this is "gps", the global public square. welcome to all of you in the

united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today on the program, an exclusive interview with the chancellor of germany, olaf scholz. on putin's war in ukraine, on whether ukraine and russia should start talking about a peace deal, and about the future of europe itself. and, chevron ceo mike wirth on the present and future of oil. which still powers our world. and also just where did covid come from? the so-called lab leak theory just got new life this week. we'll follow the facts with dr. leana wen. but first, here is my take. we're often told that america is deeply divided, that

polarization makes it impossible for us to make any progress in policy. that our country is so internally con flicked it cannot project unity and strength to the world. but on the most important foreign policy issue confronting policymakers, the problem is closer to the opposite. washington has embraced a wide-ranging consensus on china that has turned into a classic example of group think. to watch tuesday's hearing, held by the new house select committee on china, was to be transported back to the 1950s. members of both parties tried to out-do each other in the denunciation of china describing, as mike gallagher did, the communist party is a threat to the united states and blaming it directly for every problem in america from drug use to covid, to unemployment and since unemployment is at a more than a 50-year low. one could dismiss some of this

more extreme rhetoric as the usual congressional grandstanding. but it creates a dynamic that makes rational policy difficult. consider what happened a few weeks ago. the president of the united states in what can only be described as a panic ordered the u.s. military to shoot down three balloons that were probably private weather balloons similar to hundreds of such objects in the sky around the world that posed no threat to anyone. the source of the balloons used by meteorological clubs could cost as little as $12. the missiles used to shoot down the recent offending objects cost over $400,000 each. the shootdowns were orders so that no one could claim that joe biden was soft on china. china is a serious strategic competitor. the most significant great power challenger that the united states has faced in many

decades. that is all the more reason for washington to shape a rational and considered foreign policy toward it rather than one forged out of paranoia and hysteria and fears of being branded as soft. whenever policy is made in those latter circumstances, think of vietnam or iraq, it turns out badly. in 2003, when senate minority leader tom dashle tries to make the case for more diplomacy before going to war with iraq, republicans dennis hastert suggested he was giving come for the to the enemy. they spoke of those who dares to suggest improving relations with beijing in similar terms. suck e six years ago, one would have described the u.s./china relationship as difficult and perhaps strained but yet manageable with dialogue at the highest levels. when washington confronted china

on certain issues such as economic espionage, beijing would make some effort to address the charges. today u.s./china relations are a mess. china continues to do things to alarm washington but there is no discussion. beijing is supporting russia in its war on ukraine were to expand, russia would gain an unlimited supply of armament, transforming the war. nancy pelosi visit to taiwan give the golden opportunity to practice a multi day long blockade of the island that most likely military intervention in the event of a crisis. pretext for a complete cut-off strategy showing taiwan that it could be isolated as will. most trouble of all, china has

embarked on a serious program of nuclear modernization. for decades beijing took the position that it is small nuclear arsenal hovering at just over 200 warheads was an adequate deterrent. the chinese routinely affirmed the no first use doctrine. today, beijing's warhead stockpile is estimated to be at over 400 and china is on a path to more than triple that. meanwhile, russia has practically abandoned all nuclear arms control talks and treaties with the u.s. we face a new nuclear age in which two of the three largest rsennals on the planet with missiles likely targeting the united states. how much of this was inevitable? it is hard to say. china has grown in power mightily since 2000. back then it accounted for almost 4% of gdp and today that figure is about 18%. its military expenditure has

grown even faster. xi jinping is a far more aggressive leader than his predecessor. but it is also true that u.s. policy has changed. today we have a strong bipartisan view of the existential danger posed by the chinese community party which implies that regime change would be the only solution to this problem. but has this comfortable consensus created a more secure world for americans and others? or are we pomoving down a path that takes us toward decades of arms races, crises, perhaps even war? go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my column this week. and let's get started. ♪ just days after the one-year anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine, german chancellor olaf scholz traveled to

washington to meet with president biden. the war and its ripple effects were topics one, two and three on the agenda, the white house publicly announce and chancellor scholes agreed to sit down with me. >> a pleasure to have you on, sir. >> thank you for having me. >> so the leader of the german opposition frederick mitz said today, why is olaf scholz in washington? what is he doing there? i thought i would give you a chance to respond to him? >> i already told the parliament what i'm doing here. i'm talking to the president and this is not the first talk, i was here one year ago but we met quite often and we have a lot of phone calls, conferences where we speak together. so this is part of a permanent dialogue of the two nations, of the president and me and it is also a sign of a very good friendship and cooperation of

the two countries. >> how does joe biden strike you as a leader. you've met many leaders all over the world. what strikes you about biden? >> he is very informed about international relations. i think he's one of the most skilled presidents knowing how things are running in the world. which is important in times that are becoming more dangerous and see a lot of changes. and he is really a good man looking at the transatlantic partnership which is so important for europe and for peace of the world and for nato. and i think there is something which we have in common looking at the people in the united states call the middle class and i think it is important that we don't forget about their perspectives and their lives and their hopes. and so i like him. >> when you were talking to president biden, you must have

confronted the reality that the war in ukraine does appear to have settled into something of a stalemate. neither side is making major advances, the russians have seemed to have made some advances. where does it go from here? >> looking at the situation, which looks like what you explained to us, we have to understand where we are coming from. so, it was the idea of russia that they will conquer the whole country in a short time and they did not succeed. they had to regroup their troops, back from kyiv, where they started their invasion, now they are doing this very aggressive war in the east of ukraine. and russia never expected the strength of ukraine, of the people, the braveness, how they defend their country. and he never expected that they are what he is not accepting, a

nation. and altogether, and the other hand he misjudged the unity of europe, of the united states, and all of the friends of ukraine. and the permanent supply of weapons with he give to ukraine so they were able to defend their country and they will be able to do it in the future. it is very difficult to describe what will be next things to happen in ukraine, but there is something which is absolutely clear. we will continue to support ukraine with financial, humanitarian aid, but also with weapons. >> but if this continues for years, ukraine as a country will be destroyed. its economy is already down 40%, 50%, depending on what estimate you look at. is there a point at which you have to start negotiations and is there a deal to be had where ukraine gets some kind of

security guarantees from nato, perhaps e.u. membership and in return it accepts the reality that it is not getting crimea back, it is perhaps not getting some parts of the donbas back? >> there will be no decisions without the ukrainians. we will not take decisions instead of them. we support them. >> but should they -- would you encourage them to take -- >> we told them that they could go for membership in the european union and they are very -- they working to -- to make progress and all of the criteria that are important for this. i think they know that we will -- that we are ready to organize a certain way of security guarantee for the country in times of peace, to come, but we are not there yet. and my view it is necessary that putin understands that he will not succeed with his invasion

and his impeeralistic aggression and that he has to withdraw troops. this is the basis for talks and if you look at the proposal of the ukrainians, you are -- it is easy to understand they are ready for peace. but there must be something done and this has to be done by putin. >> next on "gps", more of my exclusive interview with the chancellor of germany olaf scholz. >> no one really expected one year ago that we would easily economically survive a situation where there is no gas supply to germany and many parts of europe from russia any more. but we did. o weeks. uhhhh... here, , i'll take that. [woo hoooo!] ensure max protein, withth 30 grams of protein, one gram of sugar and nutrients for immune health. you want a loan to build a factory in america? you can't do that. this is what we were up against. nobody builds facties in the us anymore.

you can't do tha experts claimed you couldn't dwhat we did. you want to hire workers here in the states? you can'do that. weathertech has been proving them wrong, for over 33 years. building our own factories, employing thousands, and making world-class products, right here in america. because when you buy something made in america...we all win. weathertech. with the freestyle libre 2 system, know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us with unitedhealthcare my sister has a whole team to help her get the most out of her medicare plan. ♪wow, uh-huh♪ advantage: me! can't wait 'til i turn 65! take advantage with an aarp medicare advantage plan... only from unitedhealthcare.

moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash.

but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. ♪ we all have a purpose in life - a “why.” maybe it's perfecting that special place

that you want to keep in the family... ...or passing down the family business... ...or giving back to the places that inspire you. no matter your purpose, at pnc private bank, we will work with you every step of the way to help you achieve it. so let us focus on the how. just tell us - what's your why? ♪ chancellor scholes, let me ask you about your extraordinary speech to the german bund is ga, where you talked about a turning

of german foreign policy. the whole world looked at it and was struck by what an extraordinary statement it was. but the action has not really followed on. you talked about $100 billion that was going to be spent in increase in defend spending, i think something like $8 billion is going to be spent this year. is there -- what is stopping you from making your actions match your words? >> first, i announced that we will supply weapons to ukraine and give all of the necessary financial aid. and we are now the strongest supporter of ukraine in the continental europe and we will continue to be. it is 14 billion euros which we spent in one of the other way to support ukraine in the last year and it is also due to weapons. where we are acting together with the united states and other friends and delivering a lot of very successful weapons for the defense of ukraine.

the last decision was about comba tanks with the united states and when we discussed about multi-rocket launchers and similar necessary weapons for ukraine. so we delivered what -- in this case. and the second is that we made us independent from the supply of gas, coal and oil from russia. no one really expected one year ago that we would easily economically survive a situation where there is no gas supply to germany and many parts of europe from russia any more. but we did. and increasing the capacity of l&g imports from the western ports of germany using for a longer time as we planned, coal

plants using nuclear plants which are running out but we increase the possibility for them to produce electricity. and so we made it. and nothing of what some people expected happened, there is no economic crisis in germany. there is -- there is no gas shortage or something like that. and -- >> there is also -- >> there is also social stability. yes, we spent altogether $300 billion to stabilize our economy and to save the pockets of the normal people. but they could survive a situation of increasing prices and increased prices for energy which we are seeing that they are going down again. and also we started with ip vesting more in our defense and it is absolutely clear that we will go to 2% of our gdp as is

agreed in nato. >> when? >> we are starting with this and we are not spending a billion, we are spending quite a lot because we already have the highest defense budget in the european union to be very clear, as germany. but we are willing to increase this. but it is not that we're going to go shopping more and saying i want to buy this or this, and it is even different as if we were -- by cars or trucks which you could ask companies to do and you will have ride the next day or in two or three or six months time. in many cases, we have to make the industry starting the production and delivering this to us. and this is the idea behind the $100 billion funded which was agreed by the parliament with a two third majority. that we can take now the decisions that are necessary for the long-term supply of our

army, and this will be about tanks and it will be about air defense, and it will be about munition. and my idea is that we have to change the way how we are dealing with the defense industry. so we need -- and this is also a lesson we learned now from ukraine and the war the russians started against ukraine, we need a permanent supply. so the main weapons that we use should be produced permanently. this is also for all of the necessary maintenance and this is also for munition. if we do so, this will increase our capability, but it will increase also the security because as we see in the difficult situation, we must be able to increase the production, so it is easier to increase the production that is also ongoing as to start newly because this will happen two or three years later. and this is also the answer.

when we in this year will make all of the agreements with the defense industry about the things that they will deliver to us, we will not get them the next day. it will sometimes take some years. even the f-35 we are buying in the united states will not be coming to germany just the next day. >> more in a moment with chancellor olaf scholz, including china, which the white house signals would be on president biden's agenda with him. is the chancellor ready to get tough on key trading partners? we'll be right back. on a very special "tv dad"... i didn't make the dance team. what do i always say? switch your car insurance to progressive, and you could saveve hundreds. -feel better now? -not really. switch to progressive, and you could save h hundred.

may lead to severe vision loss and if you're taking a multi-vitamin alone, you may be missing a critical piece... preservision. preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. preservision is backed by 20 years of clinical studies.

so ask your doctor about adding preservision and fill in a missing piece of your plan. like i did with preservision. now with ocusorb better absorbing nutrients. ♪ i like to move it, move it ♪ ♪ you like to... move it ♪ we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪ ♪ fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. migraine hits hard, so u hit back with ubrelvy

u level up u won't take a time-out one dose of ubrelvy works fast it can quickly stop migraine in its tracks within 2 hours without worrying if it's too late or where you are unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks a protein believed to be a cause of migraine. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. most common side effects were nausea and tiredness. migraine pain relief starts with u learn how abbvie could help you save. ask about ubrelvy, the anytime, anywhere migraine medicine.

for the past seven years,

china has been germany's top trading partner. there was more than $300 billion in trade between the two nations last year. according to reuters. germany's own finance minister said the strong of the relationship is dangerous and saying this his country should learn what transpired with russia. i asked olaf scholz about berlin/beijing relations as part of my exclusive interview. >> i want to ask you about china. the european union, europe has been very closely allied with america and its position on russia. do you in germany believe that you are in exactly the same place as the united states with regard to china policy? >> we are all are very clear that there should be no circumstances of weighing by china and this is happening as far as we see, and we'll

continue to look. and this is even more so that we ask them not to deliver weapons to russia. and we are telling them in our bilateral talks but also publicly that they should not do -- >> so what do they say to you when they say that. >> publicly they said they will not deliver weapons. but it is just necessary to say what has to be said and this is -- >> you could imagine sanctioning china if they were to -- >> i think it would have consequences. but we are no a state where we are making clear that this should not happen and i'm relatively optimistic that we will be successful with our request in this case. but we will have to look at it and we'll have to be very, very cautious. and let me just remind you that one thing happened when i went to china and spoke with xi

jinping, he agreed that the two of us publicly saying that the use of nuclear weapons should not happen in this war. and this made it also feasible that in the g20 meeting in indonesia, on bali, we were able to agree on the speech on the language where we say these weapons should not be used. and this is very helpful because it helps not to make it much more difficult to -- to escalate the war to something like this. and if you hear all of the words about nuclear weapons before and afterwards it is really a change. so we have to be very clear with our position in this case and we are altogether, and we have to work intensely and we have a lot of countries supporting a world which is not revisionist, which is not -- which is accepting

borders. this is the real change coming from the russian war. it is not just the european question, it is a question for the whole world, that russia is not accepting agreements that had been made with the -- with the united nations, had been made in the conference on security and peace in europe and others, other activities in the past, that there should be no change of borders by force. and when i discussed countries in asia or africa or the south of america, i think that many agree to that. and we see it in the decisions of the general assembly. many agreed to this view even if they do not vote in favor of this voting of the assembly. but they understand that this is

a threat also to them. and if we continue to talk to our friends over there, i think it will be helpful for forming a world that is multi-polar, but a better world and not more dangerous. >> xi jinping said vladimir putin is his best friend. he said that many times. is it your sense there is a personal bond between the two of them. >> i think that they know who they are. and this is why they also cooperate. they have common history in the way of political leadership, they are now on completely different paths. but we have to make very clear that changing borders by force is not acceptable. >> chancellor, you're kind to have given us the time. it is an honor. >> thank you.

next on gps, i ask an oil ceo what is stopping us from going green. is it his company? when we come back. plates. plates. plates. the's somehow no better way to travel this place, than on a plate. and when you add pri drop protection, expedia pays you back if your flight becomes chper. so you can taste your way, through every single plate and never wonder if you found a good deal. because the good deal found you. ♪

i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

learn how abbvie could help you save. mom. can we get a puppy, mom? please? girls, pets are a big expense. aww. [ audience cheers ] maybe try switching your car insurance to progressive. you could save hundreds. [ audience laughter ] thanks, tv dad. we'll think about it, okay? look what i found. -a puppy! -a puppy! oh, no, no. i wish tv dad was always in charge. [ dog barks, audience laughter ] listen to your tv dad. drivers who switch and save with progressive save nearly $700 on average. you didn't live this strong, this long to get put on the shelf like a porcelain doll. but one out of two women over 50 will suffer a fracture from osteoporosis. you should know you can build new bone with evenity® for postmenopausal women with osteoporosis at high risk for fracture. ask your doctor if you can do more than just slowing down bone loss with evenity®. want stronger bones? then build new bone; evenity® can help in just 12 months.

evenity® is proven to reduce spine fracture risk by 73%. evenity® can increase risk of heart attack, stroke, or death from a cardiovascular problem. do not take evenity® if you have low blood calcium, or are allergic to it. serious allergic reactions and low blood calcium have occurred. tell your doctor about jaw bone problems, as they have been reported with evenity®. or about pain in your hip, groin or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. don't let a break put you on a shelf. talk to your doctor about building new bone with evenity®! did you ever stress about us having three kids? no, that was always part of the plan. three kids?! this was never part of the plan! these kids order the lobster mac 'n cheese! what if she wants to play golf? we're going to have to outlaw golf. absolutely no golf in this house! not under my roof! since we started working with empower, all of our financial questions have been answered, so we don't have to worry. so you never- nope. always part of the plan. join 17 million people and take control of your financial future to empower what's next.

start today at empower.com russia's war in ukraine has created a global energy crisis that has led countries across the world to reopen coal plants, restart nuclear reactors, and boost oil production in order to fix a short-term crunch. meanwhile, the consequences of climate change are getting worse and worse. is there a way to provide people the energy they need today and at the same time tackle the issue of climate change? i'm joined by the ceo of chevron, mike wirth. welcome to the show. >> thanks, fareed. >> so when you look at the price of oil now, around $83, $84 a barrel, it is where it was before russia invaded ukraine

and most people said that the war is going to cause severe constraints on supply, once china reopens they will consume 2 million barrels a day that they stopped during covid. so how come it is still at $83 a barrel? >> the fear was, and prices ran up on the concern that russia supplies would come out of the market. that hasn't happened. russian crude is still flowing to different places but it is still in the market. and the policy of the u.s. and the e.u. has been to keep those supplies flowing to try to impact the price at which that oil trades. so i think the fact that prices are largely the same as they were before is because supply and demand is largely the same as it was before the war. there are risks that china demand could increase, we'll see how the concerns about a recession in the u.s. play out, but i think the risks are on the demand side in the two biggest economies. >> i want to ask you the question that people look at

with despair. if you go back to 1980 and you look at world energy use, the world energy use was 90% fossil fuels, roughly. if you look at it today, 40 years later, it is about 80%. a lot of people would say you're the problem. that the oil, that the fossil fuel industry has gotten all kinds of subsidies, has laws written and given all kinds of benefits, has mounted a campaign of misinformation. so i want you to give you an opportunity to tell me why do you think -- why do you think it is been so difficult to wean us off fossil fuels when we do know that they are causing climate change? >> well, the first thing is, fareed, demand has increases since 2000. i'll go back 20 years, not 40 years. demand for oil and gas has increased by a third in the world in just the last 20 years. despite the concerns about

climate, despite tremendous investment in wind and solar and tremendous growth in renewable power. >> why do you think that is? >> population is growing. there is a middle class today that continues to grow and everything that a middle class lifestyle requires is dependent upon energy, light, heat, mobility, space heating, space cooling, mechanized agriculture, the things that emerging economies rely on for a better standard of living all require energy. >> most of the increase in demand has come from the emerging markets, the developing -- >> the fastest growing of demand is in the emerging markets an it is met by the energy sources that work best in these different countries. and there is no one slaolution. >> and you so say you believe that climate change is real and you want to do something about it. you said you don't know anyone who disagrees with what the biden people are doing on the

inflation reduction act. what would you do to try to stop, you know, you look at the trend lines and they look really bad, what would you do? >> i would encourage -- there are three things as you talk about the energy transition that really matter. scale, speed, and solutions. so scale, scale the energy system is enormous to keep the lights on and the trains running and the consumers of energy tend to be long cycle capital investments, airplanes, ships, factories, cars and electric vehicles are about the fastest turn over part of the energy consumes system and they last for 20 years. so the scale is enormous and growing every day. >> just so people understand, if you're building an airline, it is going to go run for 40 years, you need to know the fuel that you use is going to be around for 40 years? >> and if you are buying a plane

today, you don't retire it two years from now. their business required them to fly that airplane for decade for the investment in the plane. when you get to speed, the introduction of technologies is governed by economics and demand and we've seen when coal came into the system to go from 1% of demand to 10% took 60 years. and it was a much smaller energy system in those days. both oil and gas took four decades to go from 1% to 10%. we've seen $4.5 trillion invested in wind and solar just over the last decade. and it is moved from 1% of global energy supply to 3%. so the scale governs the speed and the speed will be different in different parts of the world. and that brings many he to the third point which is we need all solutions. we need, wind, solar and electric vehicles. we also need oil and gas.

we should be trying to find a way too make every component affordable and reliable for national security purposes and make it ever cleaner. >> and what do you say to somebody like an al gore who will say the problem is we're still too reliant on fossil fuels, the only way to stop, to break that kind of dependency is to force these oil companies to produce less, either by taxing them or by regulating them, that part of the problem is we have an easy addiction it your product and we need to end it. >> to force the existing energy system out of use right now is going to take economies backwards. it will take the quality of life backward. it will move society in a direction that society doesn't want to go. and so what we have to do is find ways to move forward, to encourage all of the technologies to compete on a lower carbon basis. but to exclude the 80% of what runs the world economy today and

say that, no, you can't use that, it is not what progress looks like. everybody wants -- i'll call it energy system a, which is the one we have today, 80% fossil fuels, the same as it was decades ago and once it switched to system b, but it is 1% or 2% built. and if we turn system a off, we get a example by watching europe right now and some of the concerns of the prices and the worries about energy security. we need to seek an orderly transition. which means stability in pricing, stability in supplies. we can't create economic chaos and pain on individuals or they will lose interest in an energy transition. if the cost is too high. >> 30 years from now, will that number, 80% of energy used worldwide is fossil fuel, where will that number be? >> it may be lower than 80 but it will still be a substantial portion of the mix. >> mike wirth, pleasure to have

you on. >> great to be with you. next on "gps", where does coronavirus come from? the debate came back to the forward this week but my next guest said we're asking the wrong question. i'm explain when we come back. i investment products, right? (fisher investments) nope. fisher avoids them. (other moneyey manager) well, you must earn commissions on trades. (fisher investstments) never at fisher. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in some hidden and layered fees. (fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when our clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. i am here because they revolutionized immunotherapy. i am here because they saw how cancer adapts to different oxygen levels and starved it. i am here because they switchedn and stopped the growth of tumor cells. there's a place at's making one advanced cancer discovery after another for 75 years.

i am here... i am here.... because of dana-farber. what we do here changes lives everywhere. i am here. if your moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms are stopping you in your tracks... choose stelara® from the start... and move toward relief after the first dose... with injections every two months. stelara® may increase your risk of infections,

some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. pres, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. feel unstoppable. ask your doctor how lasting remission can start with stelara®. janssen can help you explore cost support options. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we support immune function. supply fuel for immune cells and sustain tissue health. ensure with twenty-five vitamins and minerals, and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein.

where did covid 19 come from? it is a question the world has been asking for three years now. the debate around it was ignited this past weekend after the united states energy department concludes that a lab leak in wuhan was the most likely source but there remains a divide both within the intelligence community and among scientists over the true origins in the pandemic. will we ever know the real answer. joining me now is dr. leana wen, a professor at the george

washington school of public health and an author. welcome, leana. i want to first ask, what do you make of this assessment from the department of energy? is it a big change? >> well, frankly, fareed, i don't know what make of this assessment. because we don't know what exactly the department of energy found. according to cnn reporting, it seems like they are saying that there is a lab in wuhan, the chinese cdc in wuhan, that was conducting research into coronaviruses. well we already knew this. and what we're missing now is a link between the samples that were being studied an the individuals who may have gotten infected because of it. and whether that, in fact, is covid-19 and the department of energy assessment was made with low confidence and there are four other intelligence agencies within the u.s. that came up with a different assessment, thinking that the origin, the animal to human spillover is

more likely. and so i think at this point there is circumstantial evidence on both sides but there is one thick that the intelligence community has found and in fact has been unanimously saying since early on, which is that this was not intentional. this was not a bio weapon or something that china or scientists or whatever politicians or political leaders were trying to do. >> that is so well put. because it is -- it struck me, i was one of those people who was confronted with the evidence, what little that we have, and it appears that a lot of diseases that we've been seeing, sarss, mers, avian flu, seem to have zoo origins and most of the cases seem to be animal to human transmissions out in the wild and so it seemed plausible that this one also came this way. but in either event, you're saying it is absolutely clear it

was accidental? >> that is right. and that is what the intelligence communities have found, that is also what virologists have found as well. and so we're looking at two possibilities. one is that there was some kind of lab mishap. and that is possible because lab mishaps have happened before. it is happened here in the u.s. where for example in 2014 federal health officials found that there were unlabelled vials in an unsecured storage area that turned out to be smallpox. the cdc has made mistakes when it comes to the anthrax or pandemic influenza. so we've had lab mishaps. last year in the netherlands there was also a lab mishap involving polio and a lab worker got infected with polio there. so this is something that certainly can happen. but at the same time, you're right, fareed, that three out of four new or emerging diseases come from the zoo. so we need to look at the effect of climate change, deforestation

and the wildlife wet markets and what the contribution is there. and my point here is that we need to shift the question, we may never definitively know the answer of what exactly caused covid. so if we think there are two possibilities, both of which are likely, then where are we not working to prevent both of these things from happening in the future. >> one of the reasons we'll never know is the chinese government is not cooperating and is if anything feeding a certain amount of false information or incomplete information. and there is a question that people have which is should there be accountability for the fact that the chinese government has not been very forthcoming from day one, from the origins of the virus and that may have contributed to the faster spread. what do you say about that? >> i'd say that it is a really complicated issue. because on the one hand, you're right that the obfuscation on

the part of the chinese community party has been unacceptable. the chinese government didn't allow a expert team to enter the country more than three years into the beginning of covid, it is like trying to investigate a murder after three years. and the initial evidence may be gone. and so what they did then and also the lack of containment initially was really wrong. but at the same time, if we're threatening sanctions and reparations and even criminal liability as some politicians in the u.s. have suggested, that is not going to make china cooperate more. we don't want to worsen the prospect of global collaboration which is what we need to tackle future pandemics too. >> and so your fundamental point in "the washington post" piece, which i thought was terrific, is that we need to understand that the real reason we're seeing the rise of so many of these kinds of viruses, over the last 30, 40 years, really starting with

aids, is that human beings are living in ways that are more dangerous. we're living closer and closer to wildlife. this urbanization is making that happen. climate change is exacerbating it. one of the things that i worry about is factory farming where you have, you know, tens and tens of thousands of chickens and pigs in fairly unsanitary conditions and that is what makes the next pandemic quite likely. have we learned any lesson from covid? >> i think we've learned some lessons as to whether we've implemented these into practice is less clear to me. we definitely have recognized the importance of surveillance and i think we're seeing more early surveillance including using wastewater. i think that is a very good thing. we've seen the impact of global collaboration. and how we as the world of scientists have come together to, for example, create these vaccines and deliver on treatments and in record time. i think those are all very

positive things. but what i worry about is that public trust is really eroded and in public health. and that is everything. and i really worry that in the discussion about the origin of covid, that people have hitched on to various theories as part of their political identity which is really not how science is supposed to work. >> leana wen, pleasure to talk to you. >> thank you, fareed. thanks to all of for being part of my program this week. ly s---- i will see you next we. where two pairs and a freeee, quality eye exam start at just t $79.95. book an exam tododay at americasbest.com. ♪ may lead to severe vision loss and if you're taking a multi-vitamin alone, you may be missing a critical pie... preservision. preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute toelp reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. preservision is backed by 20 years of clinical studies.

so ask your doctor about adding preservision and fill in a missing piece of your plan. like i did with preservision. now with ocusorb better absorbing nutrients. with the freestyle libre 2 system, know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... the tightness, stinging... the pain. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, most people saw 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. the majority of people saw 90% clearer skin even at 5 years. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them.

tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®. ask your doctor about tremfya® today. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. we'll replace your windshield, and recalibrate your advanced safety system. so automatic emergency braking and lane departure warning work properly. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪ i like to move it, move it ♪ ♪ you like to... move it ♪

we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪ ♪ fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service.