in 1959, first approved in 1968 that went from a mainstay in hospital settings and god seasoned to people with severe chronic pain to illegally produced synthetic killer of americans. many of them young people who were not hard core drug users, not addicted, but handed a pill they thought was a xanax or percocet at a party by a friend. one pill that might have had a tiny amount of fentanyl the size of a pencil tip to kill them. i want you at home to take a look around the room that we're in right now tonight. every one of our guests and all of our studio audience has in some way been touched by this crisis. and again, we want to make it clear, that doesn't just mean by addiction. accidental poisoning by fentanyl is a major, major problem as well. according to the centers for disease control, more than 70,000 people in this country died in 2021 from fentanyl and other synthetic opioids. 70,000 americans a year, up from nearly none just 20 years ago.

one reason why, take a look at these two viles. in one, a lethal dose of heroin. in the other, so little you can barely see it is a lethal dose of fentanyl. cheap to make, easy to smuggle, simple to mix into other drugs. fentanyl abuse and deaths are a nationwide problem, some states are especially hard hit. the darkest colors on the map represent the greatest number of deaths per 100,000 with ground zero being appalachian, west virginia. throughout the hour we'll talk about ways of addressing this deadly public health crisis, one is the help line you see there from the federal government, substance abuse and mental health services administration. 1-800-622-help. 1-800-622-help. swoun talk to a resource to draw on perhaps. tonight we'll talk about the government response also senator lindsey graham and public health specialist handling cases up close. but again, just about enk here

with me has been affected by the crisis in their own ways and those stories we hope will be at the heart of the hour ahead. with me here tonight is erin rockwell. he was a college freshman, he die. she is hear with her son caden who joins us. also april and owen mardin are with us. in the audience is rick rockwell, logan's dad and jada martin, jordan's sister. thank you all. thank you for being with us. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you for having us. >> will you just start by when you got the call about jordan, did you -- you're a police officer. you work at a small university. you had heard about fentanyl. but did you know it could be in pills? when you got that call, did you know what happened to your son? >> no. at the time we didn't know what happened to him exactly.

there was -- he was with his girlfriend. and she did tell us that he took a pill. >> they went to a friend's house, who sold him a pill that -- >> yeah. >> he thought was a percocet. >> yeah. she said they took a percocet. and we went to the house. and he was there. and the medics were working on him. >> you went there immediately when she called you. >> yeah. she had called. the guy who was at the house wasn't letting her call the ambulance. so it delayed it a little bit because -- >> he would not let them call an ambulance? >> no. like hi husband heard him yelling, hang up the phone. not to call anybody. >> he turned out to be a dealer? >> yeah. and we went to the house. and the medics were there working on jordan. and there was a police officer there that i knew. when ever i saw him, he asked me was that my son? yeah. i could tell by his face that it wasn't good.

>> the -- it's remarkable to me that the person who gave that pill to your son, you didn't know who he was, but you got a call a little bit later on that month from another parent. what did that parent tell you? >> they informed us that a month before my son's passing that the same person sold their son a pill and caused their son's life also. >> at the same house? >> it wasn't at the same location, but it came from the same person. it wasn't at that -- the building that my son was in, no, it wasn't. >> and that person, the drug dealer who sold the pill to your son and to nathan, who is the other young man who got killed, he was arrested. what sentence did he get for selling two pills that killed two people? >> well, for my son, he got 4 to 9 -- i'm sorry, 4 to 10 for my son and then for nathan, he got 4 to 9, but they're letting him

run it together. so he could be out in four years. >> and he admitted that he knew it was fentanyl that he was selling after nathan died, so he knew the pill he was giving to your child was fentanyl? >> yes. he admitted it in the courtroom to the judge and everything. and the prosecutor. >> erin, tell me about logan. >> yeah. thank you for having us. so, logan was -- he's a good kid. he was a vulnerable kid. he was very sensitive. i describe him as kind of that sensitive kid who would come home from school or just -- he got made fun or be bullied a little bit. he was vulnerable. him and caden were very close. you know, we did a lot of things with the family. i would just -- i liked to kind of use the example of we were kind of the classic american family, not perfect. no family is perfect, but we did things be our kids. fentanyl was not in our tool kit. >> you hadn't really heard of

it? >> i had heard of fentanyl. like, you know, as we started through the years wrestle with some things with logan. he did struggle definitely with some mental health, anxiety, depression issues. and we were really open about that. i think there are so many families out there who have kids struggling. i mean, after covid, the crisis, the phones, the social media, all that stuff. so, yes, absolutely did he struggle, for sure. but fentanyl, it was something i had heard of but not something i would have ever thought would have killed our child, ever. >> the pill he took, he was on a facetime call with his girlfriend. she actually saw him. >> yes, correct. >> did she know about fentanyl. >> she did not know. she saw him take something. she knew he was distraught. they were arguing that night. it was the early morning of valentine's day. and so she knew things but didn't put them all together in terms of those were all signs of

an opioid body u shutting down. which is one of the reasons that triggered us to start speaking out. these kids have to know what to look for. this is not going away, and we have to do something. >> caden, how much younger were you from logan? >> 14 months. >> 14 months. you're in college now? >> yes, i am. >> how are you doing? >> with everything that's happened, with logan, obviously it's been a struggle to go to school and still try to carry on a normal life because after something like this happens, nothing ever is the same. especially with how close logan and i were as kids. at times he is my only friend. that makes it pretty hard. >> do you see -- is there a lot -- on campus, is there a lot of knowledge about fentanyl? >> not really. recently, though, i go to grand

canyon university. they have been putting up some signs that i noticed about fentanyl. i actually just noticed them a few days ago. but other than that, there's not much knowledge that i know about. i try to tell my roommates, my friends, and everyone that i do keep narcan with me. i carry it on me at all times. >> do all offdou you do that? >> yes. >> can you tell people what narcan is? >> it stops the effects of open yoeds. >> police officers, emts have it. there's a big push to get narcan in as many places as possible. that's something you all support. >> absolutely. >> yes. >> yes. >> absolutely. >> erin, what do you want to see change? what do you think -- what can be done? >> awareness because i think a

lot of it is that people don't know. they don't understand that it's -- fentanyl is in everything. and then a lot of people don't understand what to look for when people are having those effects of fentanyl. so i think it's just awareness. letting people -- just getting the word out about it. >> the ease with which -- sorry. what were you going to say? >> to piggy back off of what april said, you know, a couple things that are really important right now is that there's a stigma attached with a drug death. there's always been. and so -- but we're not in 20 years ago where, you know, some of these kids are not going to the 30, 40 years old with strong addictions. and even then there shouldn't be a stigma with it. these people are struggling. it's a disease. but there needs to be a very distinguished difference between poisoning and overdose. overdose is when you take too much of something. and you know you took too much of something and then something

happens. sometimes people don't die from that. poisoning is different. it's like -- i like to explain if i put something in someone's drink and they die from it, that's a poisoning. they didn't know they took what they took. and that's a very big thing i want your country to embrace all around. and the fact that it's not a red, white and bluish shoe. this is a bipartisan issue. it is so important. that's why this is so important. you know, that everybody embraces. this is a crisis. we are losing kids every, you know, every -- well, americans every eight minutes right now. >> how -- what is -- what do you think can be done? and what would you like to see? >> tougher laws. more prosecution on the dealers. >> 4.5 years is, for you -- >> i feel like it's a slap on the wrist for him. i feel like it's a smack in my face everyday that that's what he got for taking my son's life.

>> caden, was -- was fentanyl something you had known about? obviously your brother had had some struggles with substances, but was that on your radar? >> no, not at all. not -- never had heard about it before my brother passed away. >> it's interesting to me that, you know, at colleges now that it's not so widely discussed because, you know, college people think, oh, they know a drug dealer and, oh, they trust this person. this person is giving them a pill. it's a xanax, it's a percocet. when, in fact, they have no idea what this pill -- what this pill is. the dealer, from what i understand who killed your son, said that this was from his own personal prescription, is that right? >> yeah. he said it was his own personal prescription. he also said he was my son's friend, which i -- he's not my son's friend because all of my

children friends we have met. majority of my kid's friends stay the night, eat dinner. never met this kid. didn't know what he looked like until that day. >> what was jordan like? your eyes light up when you think about him. >> he was a typical kid. he was an athlete. he was an entrepreneur. he was -- he had -- >> i don't know typical kids who are athletes and entrepreneurs, i have to say. you guys were going to a business flipping houses together? >> yes. at the time of his death, jordan worked at amazon, he had a gutter cleaning business, we wanted to start flipping houses. he was planning for his future. he wanted -- he came to me, he said, you know, six months from now i want to get engaged. he planned on asking his girlfriend to marry him a year from now he said he wanted to have his own house. so i mean, he was planning for the future. and it hurts everyday. >> what was logan like? >> logan loved baseball. he was a big baseball player.

he loved our cats. he loved magic tricks. i would describe him as the funny kid in the family. he loved his brother for sure. they were very close in age when they were little. you know, people would think they were twins. >> is that right? >> yeah, yeah. probably me dressing them a like didn't help. but i -- the biggest -- one of the other biggest things i would like to mention is that, you know, the brother part because the siblings are grieving. and that is something that is so critical to me that these kids get attention. they're forgotten. and so, for you to have kids here and caden here, that's critical. there's just a very big absence in that. and so, this is a life-changing -- as you know, a life-changing thing to lose a sibling. so, that is a huge part of -- >> so interesting you say that because people don't really talk

about that. my brother died by suicide when he was 23 and i was 21. i think about you, caden, going to school. my senior year was a blur. i don't remember, you know -- so. yeah. i'm so sorry for your losses. and i appreciate you talking with us tonight. i hope it helps. i hope it helps people out there to at least know about the dangers and some parent out there, some child will see this and think twice before somebody hands them something and they take it. so thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. right now a closer look at how fentanyl and products laced with it actually get into this country, starting in china, by way of mexico. cnn's david culliver joins us from the california side of the border. so why is that location where you're at so important in the fight against fentanyl? >> reporter: i think it's rooted, anderson, in the stories that you just heard there. this is incredibly personal and devastating for so many.

and it's increasingly becoming a reality for so many. and it starts with stopping fentanyl and for law enforcement, borders like this one and really across the san diego area, it is crucial. they're seeing this major influx. in fact, out of all the fentanyl that's seized across this country at u.s. borders, more than half are seized in the san diego area. so it is significant here. and border crossings like this one are continuing to see that pressure. but they're also saying, this is coming from u.s. officials that i've been speaking with, it's not just the u.s. law enforcement that has to do something here. china plays a role in this because that's where the chemical ingredients come from. as does mexico, because that's where the cartel members are cooking this all up. and so, it brought us to question the mexican law enforcement and the military there in particular. they say, despite allegations of corruption and that they're not doing enough, that they are doing something. so we said show us. here is where they took us.

in cartel country, as some see it -- here the mexican army is on the hunt for drug labs. with 50 soldiers and a convoy of six armored vehicles, we travel into a rural and mountainous landscape. u.s. officials estimate fentanyl makes mexico's criminal organizations billions of dollars each year. the cartels, determined to eliminate anyone or anything that might threaten their profit. colonel, our guide -- takes us to the scene of their latest fentanyl bust. they're securing the perimeter right now. days earlier he says cartel members opened fire on him and his soldiers. he said they started shooting at them, hitting the vehicles. and then the four guys started running. the army's intel led them to

this unassuming home. in a quiet, family-friend neighborhood. that white building right there, that's the fentanyl lab. the army says they seized 270,000 pills here. all containing fentanyl. they had all sorts of machines to make the pills. in his nearly 35 years in the army working to dismantle drug operations the colonel tells me the fentanyl has been far more devastating and difficult to control than cocaine, heroin and meth. they test substances to know what exactly they're seizing. so it shows it here breakdown of what the chemical is and what makes it up and even has here listed the hazmat component to it. crucial in understanding how fentanyl is made is knowing where the chemicals are sourced. a lot of them, he says, come from the port which came in from asia. higher ranking military officials have told us most of them come from china. china's vast chemical industry is where experts say many of the

ingredients to manufacture fentanyl known as precursors are sourced and with worsening u.s./china relations, working with chinese officials to stop the flow increasingly challenging. with china, it's extremely difficult because you don't get information from them. you don't get cooperation from them. >> reporter: matt donahue worked for the dea for more than three decades. retire last year as deputy chief of foreign operations. >> mexico is intentionally making these drugs knowing killing americans still shipping them up there without seizing properties or going after all their drug assets. >> reporter: high-ranking officials adamant push back on that claim. instead, they point to the u.s. to do more on its soil, a sentiment echoed by china. on monday, the foreign ministry responding to our questions, saying in part, the accusation by some people from the u.s. that china is not further controlling the export of fentanyl precursors because of geopolitical influence is a desecration of the spirit of the rule of law and is completely

groundless. adding, using china as a scapegoat will not solve the drug crisis in the united states. the army keeps a presence at these busted labs 24/7, preserving the scenes for prosecutors and preventing cartel members from restarting production. they also conduct random inspections at package facilities, searching for fentanyl and the precursor chemicals needed to make it. even setting up check points, working to prevent the distribution of drugs made here. wow. he said in one of the searches, for example, it's not uncommon to find that fentanyl or other drugs will be stashed in places like the car wheel or within the car, but even in the gas tank. >> fentanyl, it's sad. it's dirt cheap. you can take a life for probably 5 cents, 10 cents what it costs them to make a pill that they're charging $15 for. what's a human life worth now? >> reporter: just days after our visit, mexican army officials

sent us this video from the back room of this small home, they seized 600,000 fentanyl pills. countless lives potentially saved. but the cartel-fueled production is seemingly endless. and so, too, the devastation that awaits. so david, where you're at, i assume what is coming mostly through in trucks and vehicles? or is it people bringing across as they cross illegally? at that border point or others? >> reporter: it's interesting to realize that this is actually happening using american citizens. officials have told us both in mexico and here in the u.s. that some american citizens have been among those who are driving across, just like you see the backlog here, and bringing with them hidden in their vehicles fentanyl pills. and it's something that is increasingly challenging for u.s. officials but at the same time, they're making some progress. i want to show you this actually, this tweet if we can put it up on the screen.

this was just in the past week, anderson. what you're looking at in this image 232 pounds of fentanyl, estimated to about $3 million worth, that was seized last week. and they arrested three people in connection with that. but the potential deaths from that are estimated to be around 50 million people. i mean, so that shows you what a small amount has the potential to do and how devastating this is. so how do you stop it? i put that question to now officials in mexico and here in the u.s. ultimately comes down to international cooperation. this is far bigger than just the u.s. this has to involve mexican law enforcement as well as officials in china. but to get that level of cooperation as of now, anderson, seems next to impossible. >> right. china is not cooperating now in the precursor chemicals. david culliver, appreciate it. they created an exhibit called the faces of fentanyl. the agency invited families of fentanyl victims to send photos.

so far they received more than 5,000. dea administrator joins us now. you know, david goes out on a raid with mexican military, clearly they're trying to do something. but, the problem -- the problem is in many places but mexico, that's where the cartels they're the ones making the money off this. they're the ones getting this in here, aren't they? >> so first, thank you for having me. if i could, i wanted to address before i started the tragedy that's been unfolding in mexico today and over the last few days. >> four american citizens kidnapped by cartel, two killed, two still alive. >> dea is actively working with our law enforcement partners and we will continue to do everything we can as part of that investigation. last year in 2022, dea seized 57 million fake fentanyl pills in every single state in the united states. we seized more than 13,000 pounds of fentanyl for a total that equals about 410 potentially deadly doses.

it is a level of devastation and that is almost hard for us to quantify. so, we're seeing this. it's playing out in the unspeakable tragedies every single day across our country. it starts in china with the precursor chemicals that are coming from these chinese chemical companies. >> even if you were able to stop it in china, india is starting to make precursor chemicals, aren't they also? >> the second country we think about is india, but predo predominantly right now it's china and india is cooperative. >> is china cooperating? >> china is not working with our law enforcement teams at that moment. part of what's really critical to understand, is that we're talking about fentanyl, which is a man-made drug. and so the only limit on the amount of fentanyl that the two cartels in mexico can make, those are the two cartels responsible for the fentanyl that's killing americans. the only limit on how much fentanyl they can make is the amount of precursor chemicals they can get. >> it seems like you chop off

the head of the cartel, "el chapo" is in prison in the united states, he was sinaloa, his son is running it. and they just keep going, though. >> so, in this moment in time, you know, the question i ask everyday is how can we save lives. it is not a war on drugs. it is a fight to save lives. so we have shifted completely how we operate. we've gone from targeting high-value targets we call them. hvts, like "el chapo," the head of the organization. to now targeting the entire criminal networks. and we are now tracking thousands of members of those two cartels, associates, facilitators in more than 40 countries around the world. >> so it's not cartel gangs in mexico itself. it's lawyers and business people and people who are working for the cartels in the united states and elsewhere? >> we are actively investigating the entire supply chain. so starting with chinese precursor chemical companies, to the cartels in mexico making the

fentanyl, to the people that are selling it for them in the united states on social media and then the elicit finance, the money that's going back to the cartel. >> precursor chemicals, fentanyl was coming directly from china and china did act on that with the u.s. >> that's right. >> in cooperation with the u.s. but precursor chemicals which are used to actually make fentanyl, those are now being sent from china to mexico? >> that's exactly right. so china scheduled fentanyl finished fentanyl in 2019. at that point, the cartels started bringing these precursor chemicals which are essentially the chemicals you need to make fentanyl. and you can do it with a number of different chemicals. they started bringing them into mexico. they now run secret labs throughout mexico. these two cartels -- >> they simplified the formula it's easy to make. you don't need a very experienced chemist as a cook. >> right. when it started it was chemists. now they still have chemists on their staff. again they're facilitators of the cartel's work but also now have cooks. and they have simplified it to

the point where it's cheap to make. it's easy to make. and the same pill that costs about 10 cents for a cartel to make in mexico, is sold on the streets in u.s. -- >> those who say bomb the cartels, attack the cartels, get tough, what do you say? >> so, i would say that there's no question our top operational priority is to defeat those two cartels worldwide. and so, we're mapping them. and we're investigating the entire networks to dismantle them and degrade them. i believe that's where we have to start because again, this is a limitless amount of a drug that could be on the streets of our country. >> you said that was interesting how social media is the highway for fentanyl in america. explain that. >> yeah. so one of the things we have seen is that the cartels are flooding the u.s. with fentanyl. and one of the things they're doing is they're traffickers and people selling it for them are all over social media. so, it used to be that someone who was purchasing drugs would go into an open air drug market

or have to know a dealer. now, every single american that has a cell phone, a smart phone, literally has a drug dealer in their pocket. there is no more dangerous place right now in the united states than social media sites where hundreds of millions of americans are on everyday. >> that crickets to the motive -- the motivation and the willingness of drug dealers to kill their clients. it's not people they know. it's somebody who has ordered a drug on snapchat and paid for it with venmo and then some other person has delivered it. >> yeah. the question i get more than any other question, why would a dealer kill their customer? and the bottom line is first of all, these are ruthless, violent cartels. they are poison americans to drive addiction and to profit. and they now have social media. so, where as someone might have had a face to face relationship with a drug dealer, they're now on social media. which is largely anonymous in many instances. and where a lot of people have a sense of safety that they

shouldn't have but they have a sense of safety. the other point just on this, anderson, on social media, we should be clear that the cartels are not being truthful about what they're selling. this is filled with lies and deceit and treachery. they're selling these pills as though they were oxycontin or xanax or adderall. >> they're not saying this is fentanyl. >> exactly. those are fentanyl and filler and killing americans at devastating rates. >> why they are using fentanyl, because it's a bigger high that will get more people addicted? cheaper? >> both. the same pill that they can make for ten cents in mexico sells for between 10 and $30 in the u.s. it is the most devastatingly addictive drug we have ever seen widespread. >> tougher sentencing, owens, the man who killed his son and somebody else got 4.5 years. should there be tougher sentencing? >> look, we're working across the country right now with police departments and with prosecutors. and we brought hundreds of cases that we call death resulting

investigations. we try to work as much as we can through the federal system under the federal laws where we've gotten very significant sentences. but this is something we all have to be working on. one of the other really important things as i was listening to april and owen is that we try to respond as quickly as we can. so we tell every police department in america, if you have this, call us and we will help you understand what evidence to keep, what to do. we believe we can stop the next person from dying if we can respond quickly enough and stop that dealer from selling pills and fentanyl that's cut into cocaine or meth feen or heroin that will kill someone. we have to take a short break. i want our audience members to have a chance to ask questions when we come back. also ahead, senator lindsey graham will join us in what lawmakers in both parties can do to strengthen the federal response of the crisis. later, conversation with two people on the front lines, a doctor, a former doctor who lost nearly everything to addiction. but, battled back and is helping others do the same. ♪

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taking questions from our audience. bree o'conner, bree lost her nephew when he thought he was purchasing oxycodone, it turned out to be fentanyl. he found a dealer on snapchat. i'm so sorry for you loss. >> thank you. >> what is your question? >> how do we address the issue of dealers losing platforms like snapchat to find and sell to their customers? >> before you answer that, we reached out to snapchat who sent us a statement that said we're committed to doing our part to fight the national fentanyl poisoning crisis, which includes using cutting edge technology to help us proactively find and shut down drug dealer's accounts. >> i'm so sorry for your loss. you raise a question that we are asking every single day. anderson showed the faces of fentanyl wall in dea headquarters before. and if you and i walked along that wall, i could show you the faces of americans who died from

snapchat buying a pill on snapchat, from instagram, from facebook marketplace. and on and on. it is absolutely devastating. the social media companies, in my view, are not doing nearly enough to stop the harm. we have seen that there are ways that they can take action. in the past, they had stopped terrorism videos. we have seen changes that have come in things like human trafficking, through congressional laws. what they have not been willing to do up until this point in time, in my view, is take responsibility for what their sites are -- what's happening on their sites everyday. so, to just address what snapchat has said, we know that's not accurate. we are all over social media. we're doing investigations of cases that come from social media and we routinely are finding posts that are on all of the social media platforms for days, for weeks, for months. and it is unacceptable. i believe there has to be greater accountability.

i believe that, you know, even think about what you just said, that they're telling us that they're doing everything they can. >> right. they say they are committed to doing everything they can to fight and using cutting edge technology to help us proactively find and shut down drug dealers. >> they won't show us that technology. they won't let outside experts come in. they will not at this point allow auditors or others who could actually help them improve their platforms come in. that can't be acceptable. we're talking about 107,735 americans lives lost between august of 2021 and august of 2022. whatever they're doing is not enough. >> this is jonine williamson, her stepson died last october. he took what he thought was a percocet which was laced with a deadly dose of fentanyl. his williamson, you and i talked beforehand. i'm so sorry for your loss. >> thank you so much. i have a two-part question. i would like to know what kind of training are we going to give first responders who interface

with someone who had an overdose? and then what type of followup are we going to give to ensure that people who overdose can be connected with care? >> yes. so i am so sorry for your loss as well. and i j u.s. want to say also how inspiring it is to me that all of you are taking incredible tragedies and raising awareness. because i don't think there's anything more important that all of us can be doing about talking about the harm and what we're seeing. so in terms of training for first responders, every single dea agent in america cares are that lox sewn. i carry as well. we will offer training for police officers and emt on not only this but also how to respond to a drug poisoning. what they can and should do. the first moments matter enormously. and so we want to do that. the other question you asked, i think one of the things that we are very focussed on at dea is how do we expand access to treatment as well across the united states for people who

have substance use disorder. we are working to medication for opioid use disorder. the president signed and congress passed that removed barriers to treatment. so we have now gone from about 200,000 medical practitioners being able to prescribe this life-saving care to every single medical practitioner in the united states. we have to keep working on it, but it is a vital part of what we can do. and how we have to make sure everyone is aware of the harms and what we can do to help. >> thank you for your question. this is danielle, a professor of epidemiology and worked with people who used drugs for more than two decades and the deputy director of the center for drug use and hiv research and vice dean for academic affairs at new york university school of global public health. what's your question? >> good evening. thank you. >> you do a lot there. very long title. >> it's a long day. in light of the documented success of overdose prevention centers in reducing overdose

deaths, what steps has the dea taking to support the establishment of opcs as a harm reduction strategy in communities across the united states? >> so thank you for that question. we have three top priorities at dea right now. the first is to defeat the two cartels we believe are responsible for the unprecedented and catastrophic loss of life. the second is to raise public awareness and the third is to do everything we can to expand access to treatment so that every american who needs treatment can have it. we are -- there's no question at this moment in time that everything -- this is a whole of government approach. so we have partners at health and human services, we work with them every single day at veterans affairs. everyone in the u.s. government has to work and do what they can to make sure that we are getting americans what they need at this devastating time. and we also have to understand that this is different than, you know, as much respect as i have for the work that you've been doing for all these years and i

am -- i admire it so greatly, i believe that we are in the same situation in some ways but also in very different ways where what we are now seeing is many people are taking drugs that they don't even know they're taking as well. so, this is a catastrophic moment where every part of government has to be doing everything we can to save lives. >> that's the thing. people don't know they're taking it. a new parent, i've got a couple years on this, but you know, my oldest is 3 and the youngest is 1, but that they could be in college and somebody hands them some pill they think is, something -- like a xanax that's a prescription pill and it kills them. it's stunning. >> yeah. that is what we see the cartels doing is being deliberate and calculated with their treachery and their lies. they are making these pills to look exactly like a percocet, exactly like an oxsy or an adderall or oxycontin or they're hiding fentanyl in drugs that

americans may be buying like cocaine or methamphetamine or heroin. what's happening is people are dying at these catastrophic and unprecedented rates. and they're doing it, we believe, to drive addiction. and they're doing it because the more people who are buying the more money they make. and so, this is a threat unlike any we have seen before. and so we need to bring all -- every single tool we have in the government, public health, enforcement, or expanding the aperture to treatment, we have to be doing everything to save lives. >> i want to introduce medical frank who studies opioid use and treatment and long-term methadone treatment. you have a question for anne. >> yes, thank you. drug checking programs that can test for levels of fentanyl and other -- are such a common sense and evidence-based strategy to reduce overdose. why aren't we doing more with them? >> before you answer, i want to show some video of what mr. frank is talking about, at least one example of it. this is testing strips can

measure fentanyl found in any drugs that have been purchased. does that actually work? >> so, you know, the health and human services folks are the experts on this. what i can tell you from what we see is that it does work. but we also have to be very careful when it comes to something like pills because you were talking before about the amount of fentanyl that's deadly. it's the amount that could be on the tip of a pencil. there's no way to just scrape off a piece of a pill and use a fentanyl test strip and know that that pill is safe. >> so you can't just rub a little bit of the pill -- >> you cannot. you would have to crush the whole pill. >> you have to crush the pill and dissolve in water. >> yes. essentially. >> wouldn't that then nullify -- somebody who wants to use that pill do that? >> yeah. so, while -- these are important parts of the conversation to have when it comes to fake pills, again, we seized 57 million of them fake fentanyl pills last year, it would not be

something where we could tell you with a fentanyl test trip whether or not a pill from scrape pg it was safe. so i think the assumption has to be many america in 2023, that any pill that was not given to you by your doctor, prescribed directly to you, that any pill like that that wasn't given to you personally by your doctor is not safe. and can kill. >> and i appreciate your time. we are going to get more questions in a moment. coming up, republican senator lindsey graham will join us to discuss what congress can do to control the flow of fentanyl into the country. we'll be right back. ♪

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>> and we're back with our cnn town hall, america dictated, the fentanyl crisis. we heard from the ea in history and milligram before the break. now, what lawmakers my bill to do. our next guest is a republican senator from south carolina who is cosponsoring a bill to try to reduce the fentanyl and similar substances, fentanyl analogues, that would make permit their classifications schedule of drugs. senator lindsey graham. center, graham thank you for joining the conversation. talk about what you and senator

cotton of alabama introduced as legislation. >> number, one fentanyl is a weapon of mass destruction more than it is a drug. the people in your audience that have suffered terrible losses, and we're not doing enough about it. so, schedule one is the highest level we can put a drug in terms of punishment. fentanyl is due to come off that schedule at the end of the year. that's ridiculous. so, we've got to keep it on schedule one. but i want to do more than that. the drug cartels that are sending this poison into our country need to be considered terrorist organizations. the law enforcement model is not working. this is not working. so, we need to take a different approach. let's call these drug cartels terrorist, because they're terrorizing america, and go after them with a different model. >> what does that model look like to you anne milgram, the dea, said that's what they're doing, not just trying to trough the head of wood el chapo, put him in prison, because his son's running it, but go after the whole networks, their lawyers, their businesses,

their corporations. >> well, what they are doing is not working because there are 14,700 pounds of fentanyl seized in 2022, where over 12,000 already in four months in 2023 fiscal year. so, why would i do? foreign terrorist designation to drug cartels allows us to have extra jurisdiction to go after the more aggressively. what it billed clinton do when it came to columbia cocaine problem? he sent the u.s. military to the country of colombia to actually get involved in eradicating the cocaine dealers in colombia, to stop the flow in the united states. so, what i proposed that we make drug cartels foreign terrorist organizations, and we use military force, if necessary, to stop their poisoning of america, blow their lives up. >> in terms of actually drugs coming in, it seems like they are coming in through the

border checkpoints, particularly that's where they're being seized most, commercial vehicles, a lot of americans even bring them in before the drug cartels, drones, any possible way, dhl, fedex. how do you stop that? >> well, you know -- >> even if you kill a lot of cartel leaders or sees them, it seems like there is an endless supply of these cartels. >> well, the cost of doing business when it comes to fentanyl needs to go up. we need stiffer punishments. fto designation would allow us to put these people in jail longer and allow us to go after the networks all over the world. but if you blow up a couple of these labs and kill the drug dealers, they'd have a hard time getting somebody else to come in and open up a new lab. so, what did clinton do? he sent the american military as advisors to have the colombia military get on the ground to hit it at its source. you're never gonna win this game at the border.

you need to tell mexico your harboring drug cartels, you're giving them safe havens, they're terrorizing americans, they kidnapped for americans, three of them from south carolina, killed two of them today. enough is enough. so, let's lose use every tool in the tool box to go after them at their force. >> anything to do on china precursor chemicals? because china is now not cooperating. >> absolutely. so, let's look at this way. what's the likelihood that the communist chinese party is unaware of the fact that they have fentanyl precursor drug factories in china and they don't know it? zero. so, let's get tough on mexico. let's start using the military like we did in columbia, regarding fentanyl. let's start blowing up some of these labs and putting people in jail longer, until china, that you are part of the problem, and hold them accountable and start looking at these organizations and china's foreign terrorist organizations. let's up the game against

everybody involved in the fentanyl business, from china to mexico, and make the cost of doing business a higher. >> we've got some questions from people in the room tonight. first is fiona fluorine. her only son cameron died in his bedroom of fentanyl poisoning in march 2018 after taking a pill he thought was oxycontin. fiona, what's your question for the senator? >> good evening, senator graham. how do we begin national education as early as possible in all schools and with messaging? and encourage medical providers to discuss it with young patients and their parents during wellness checks? >> count me enough for making this, using the department of education to provide information to local schools from what editor -- would ever age levels appropriate to let kids know do not take a pill from a stranger. because, you know, the people in the audience have lost loved ones who were basically

tricked. they were given a and it wound up having fentanyl in it and now they're dead. you know, young people experiment. that's just part of life. these drug cartels are really terrorists. so, count me in on educating young people as to what not to do. count in on keeping up border security. but the one thing i'm trying to stress to the audience tonight, that's not enough. we've got to go after them where they live and where the residing in mexico. first, the mexican government, to be a better partner. and if they won't be a better partner, start taking matters into our own hands. >> senator, i want to introduce you to norah dominic. her son benjamin died of fentanyl poisoning in 2020. he is 28 years old. norah, i'm so sorry for your loss. thank you for being here. >> he was my only child. senator, there are only two categories of parents of young adults in this country right now. one, like me, is devastated. and don't be a fooled by how we

appear. we go to bed every night hoping we won't wake up in the morning. the other is terrified they will become like me. i support making the illicit fentanyl ban permit, to empower our enforcement community. but we need national outreach on a scale we have not seen before, with funding and direction for the states to take action, if we are to get ahead of this thing. what is being done state side? >> you know, in my state, the governor is trying to up our game. we had a seizure in raquel south carolina, enough fentanyl to kill everyone in south carolina. so, to everyone in the on, as we are letting you down. we can talk about this all night. our laws are not working. the law enforcement model is not working. the interdiction and the border is not working. let's try something new. county and for education, more narcan, finding out, treating people quicker. trying to get people not to take the bait of getting a pill that you should not take.

learn from the mistakes that were made. but i cannot stress enough, we're not going to solve this problem until the cost of poisoning america, americans, it was up. that's a fentanyl drug dealers will go in a different line of business if they start getting killed and go to jail. >> senator graham, this is a question from tina bergama. she lost her son, her son died, alec, from fentanyl poisoning in july 2018. it was on his 26th birthday. thank you for being here, tina. >> senator graham, anyone who has lost someone they know to overdose would turn back time to provide a safe place for their loved one to take a drug and save their life. potentially 100,000 precious lives saver, and an opportunity to educate about treatment and recovery provided, especially with the scourge of dangerous and lethal fentanyl. and all the data from europe, canada, and a couple facilities in the u.s. show that safe

injection facilities work, prevent people from dying, and give them an opportunity to learn that recovery is real. senator graham, would you support legalizing and funding safe injection facilities to save precious lives? >> i really don't understand the question, because we're not talking about injections here, we're talking about people taking a pill thinking it was percocet and winding up being fentanyl. but the bottom line is -- >> but they could take the pill in the safe injection facility. the whole point is they would not die if they were doing it safely, where people could help them when narcan and watch over them. and would give them the opportunity to eventually -- my son died because nobody was there to help him. he had narcan all around him, and nobody knew he was overdosing. but if he knew there is a safe place to take his drug of choice, he would be alive today because he wanted nothing more than to be on a path of recovery and enjoy the love of his friends and his family.

>> to be honest with you, ma'am, no, i don't think that's a very good idea at all. i don't think there's a safe place to do this. >> that's too bad, senator. because 100,000 people as a lot of people in a country that could be alive, if they were given a safe place as well. >> i just don't think that's the answer. >> thank you for your question, appreciate it. senator graham, i want to thank you for your time tonight. and wish you well. >> thank you, god bless. >> just ahead, we're gonna speak with two people on the front lines. and associate professor of psychiatry at nyu, and a former doctor, in recovery himself, he's helping others in their struggle. we're carvana we created a brand new way for you to sell your car go to carvana answer a few questions and our techno wizardry calculates your car's value and gives you a real offer in seconds

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