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>> the word woke is certainly getting a workout these days, particularly in some of the language that we use. and while republicans, like florida is ron desantis, are waging war on woke, is there an argument that the push for more inclusive language could be going so far? i have my panel standing by to weigh in. they are very excited about this. but first, i want to bring in george facher of the atlantic, it was a fascinating case called the moral case against equity language. george, thank you so much for being here. i read your article with great interest. basically you -- explain this. some of these words. let me just start with some of the words to show people what is changing. so, you look at the sierra club language guys. and the year a club language

guide has a lot of words that they think needs to be retired. so, here are just a few words. empower should be able to switch to elevate voices. stand in solidarity should be switched to lies, because not everyone can stand. disheartening could be changed to -- obviously, you guys is gendered. and then -- do you say wait waitress or waiter? serve. i think we've been -- serving for a long time. but they also want to retire urban, vibrant, hardworking, and brown bag? why? >> i think they find those words to have some sort of bias or some subtle racism in them. and obviously, i can't explain it better than that. a lot of the selections are a mystery. a lot of them seem to have been decided by a committee that was looking for any reason to get rid of any word that can cause any hurt to anyone. and that sort of the purpose of

these equity language guides. and a lot of american institutions, mostly nonprofits and universities, had started adopting them or even writing them. stanford wrote then and then rejoin after was subject to a lot of criticism. the purpose of them is to get rid of any trace of exclusion, or bias, or hierarchy from language. because those qualities hurt and we produce oppression and bigotry et cetera. so, it's an attempt to purify language by getting rid of words that could have traces of those qualities that any decent person would be against. the problem is, when you get rid of those words and substitute what are inevitably euphemisms, jargon, abstraction's, mush, you start stop being able to name the thing and to see the thing and to speak of the thing and right of the thing. and so it all disappears in

this fog. and we no longer really know what we are talking about. and we have this illusion that we have made the world slightly better, when, in fact, i think we have made it slightly worse. >> one of the things i was interested in reading in your article is that this -- obviously, all language changes. language evolves. the dictionary adds new words every year. and some were the retired. but your point was, that happens organically. the younger generation starts using new words. and it all happens organically. this is not, you say, organic process. >> that's right. this is not the way language changes when lots of people begin to use new words. this is handed down from above by small groups of so-called experts who supposedly represent communities. but we don't know who they are, we don't know how they make decisions. and it's a kind of fait accompli, like a detached that

gets passed down. -- suddenly banned. it reminds me a little of the workers in orwell's 1984 assembling the dictionary of newspeak, which is a process of destroying words in order to make thought impossible. these equity language guides our little like. that they are not totalitarian. but they do have this purpose and effect of making it impossible to have a thought that you can consider to be a bad thought. but i don't think they are getting rid of that thought. what they are getting rid of is our ability to talk about bad things in a way that makes sense and we can communicate an ordinary speech. >> i mean, no disrespect to the sierra club. but doesn't matter what the sierra club's language guide says? or how widespread is that? >> that's a good question. i could be accused of making far too much of guides that are really internal matters for the

american cancer society or the university of washington. i think that these guides, which themselves are inspired by just a couple of handbook that have been published by activist organizations, and up influencing common right-hand common speech. they influence what journalists right and say. they influence what people, mainly and let's be honest, educated, left professional circles feel that it's okay to say. so, eventually it does spread to the larger society. and people suddenly become aware, oh, yesterday you could say marginalized. in fact, marginalized is a bit of a mushy word. today, according to one of these guides, marginalized is actually not a good word and you should be careful about how you use it. so, there's a sense that you are always a step behind. you are going to be ambushed tomorrow by the next edition. and you have to catch up. and you have to study it. it's almost, in the way they presented to their staffs, it's almost like a religious manual

that you have to pay careful attention to and give a lot of reflection to in order to know exactly how you can write and talk. >> george packer, thank you very much for this really provocative article. it's great to talk to you about. it thanks for being here. >> you are welcome. >> i want to bring in the panel now. we have rolling stone columnist jay michaelson with us. he's also a rabbi and the author of god versus gay, the religious case for equality. and one of my favorite republicans is -- [laughter] >> -- >> so, that's what i'm sticking with. margaret hoover. >> i have to change my twitter handle. >> also, local commentator and millennial commentator evan siegfried and natasha alford. that was fascinating. because i think that he's right. people do you feel as though they get in trouble. that's part of the problem. if you want to change your language, change your language. but the feeling is of a finger wagging how dare you, know that

marginalized is no longer used. do you feel that, way natasha alford? >> i think there's a difference between poor execution and the principal and intent behind what we are trying to do. i agree, who is the sierra club to sort of dictate our language. but i don't think that is actually happening. and so i wonder how many of these groups that are making an attempts, maybe they are influenced by some extreme consultant group that they have hired, actually are speaking for the communities that feel they are affected. but what i don't like is when people use their poor execution of a few to then throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, oh, just throw away all of this effort to try to be inclusive, to try to be thoughtful. it is really used as an excuse to not engage by people who are unwilling to change. >> can i -- a little bit? because i, for lack of a better

term, kind of hated the article. precisely because it conflated the two points which i think you just made. you said at the top, right, there is a finger wagging and there's a sense that, like, you suck if you did not use the right word. but that's not what this article is attacking. it's attacking an attempt to make it not suck. it's like, hey, we are trying to help you -- we, the year a club -- because you might not be up on the ways in which our language can harm others. and no one is saying we are reinventing language. only george packer saying that. the guy does not say that. it says, here are ways to use language that is a little less harmful. >> by these hardworking and vibrant harmful? >> so, i'm not -- i did not love all of the words that were on the consulate list. but again, that sort of execution conflating execution with principle. i grew up in the 1980s in florida. we said that's so gay all the time. i was a little closeted gay kid. and i didn't get it -- nobody is talking about homosexuality when they say that so great. they just mean to say that's terrible, and gay sex, and that

you should be ashamed if you are gay, which i was. -- he did not even need to be offensive and that was just a word. i also grew up using the word gyp -- and the thai group of people. george packer can say that that's not organic. but i had to learn that. we used the n-word in my high school class, like white people used it all the time. that was considered what you said. and i had to learn that that was not okay. and he can say that's inorganic. but to me that's how we grow. but >> there is a balance, right? here's how we grow. there's all the examples you just cited. and then there's left wing activists groups like the sierra club which, literally, is going to be a republican ad for ron desantis or a line in donald trump's next political campaign in the next week. and so, there is a backlash because, of course these there is the expansion of language

and the evolving, frankly, evolution of our countries identity and inclusiveness towards everybody that is part of our country. >> you think it's giving too much farther to the right, to the ron desantis's ability to -- >> and then there's the little tendency on the far left, to do the thing that you just said, which is finger wagging, and to dictate what is acceptable and what isn't. and there is a way to do it. there is a way to expand peoples minds and to grow as a country, to grow sort of as a civilization. but maybe it is the way you do. it but also maybe some of it is just overreach. >> it is also coming out -- and it's become such an important issue for people on the far right. if you look at cpac this past weekend, it was a very present thing. woke. we don't even have a definition of what woke is. if we went on the street right now and got -- >> we've tried every that on the show and everybody has a different -- >> but also, the republicans on the far-right, the marjorie

taylor greene's, the ron desantis's -- they are going out and saying, sticks and stones may break your bones, but woke language prescriptions, those are the true threat to your individual freedom and your individual liberty. and they are praying on people. yes, i think the sierra club and other organizations are little excessive. if i were an employee in that situation, i would say, maybe, i don't have to work. here is my personal choice. but at the same time, i think that we should be respectful of other. people i have friends who have changed their pronouns and i have gotten it wrong. and they have said, hey, you've got it wrong. and i try and i would say, what would you like me to call you? it's embarrassing, it's awkward. it's like if i met you had a cocktail party and it's like two months later i bump into you and i forget your name. we get over. that's just about being mature and not shrinking -- >> i seen that on a one-on-one basis but in terms of the changing of not calling someone -- even this, i think i sort of understand -- we used to call people homeless. and now there is more of an effort for unhoused people.

because you don't want to use -- that's an adjective. so, we were using it as a noun. calling somebody homeless as a noun to find their identity, whereas calling someone homeless -- it's an adjective of where they are at the moment. >> -- >> but i don't think that people are using that insensitivity. what do -- >> -- intending harm. sometimes it's politicized and there's an intention of harm. but most people don't. that's exactly why the politicization of this, the reason this is so palpable on the right, the reason this is so -- it's just an easy not even lifeline in a donald trump loudly, rally, is because most people don't mean to harm. most people's intentions are good. and so it feels -- it inspires a sense of -- >> -- yeah, yeah -- >> i just think the right irony of the right being upset about the way they use words, is that

they literally stole a word from the african american community, have completely redefined -- taken away what its original intent was and said this is what it means now. go ahead. >> sorry. remember the term latinx? it started to become more and more into the mainstream and it was pushed -- and then pulls of latin american, or latinos found, found that they did not like that. and it really backfired in that sense. we've pulled away from that. i think there is some trial and error that has to go on in trying to find the right phrases. but at this point, we don't need to have it so we write gets to be ridiculous, where you say, the word american is offensive to people who are not american citizens. >> but who gets to say that? i'm latina? i'm latina, right? my mother may not use the word latinx. but we are a different generation. and so there is certain considerations and experiences that i have that make me more open to that word. i don't judge my mother. i don't say that my mother is wrong. we don't argue over it. but we are able to have a

conversation. i don't think it's about whether i like. it i think it's about the people that it represents. there are people who -- that binary of being the a or the o ending, it does not represent who they are. -- but saying, you want to be referred to as latinx. i have no problem with the -- i have the documentary called afro latinx revolution. and i chose the name because i wanted to be inclusive. -- no one was necessarily pushing this down everyone's throat. i think it was a certain sort of reaction to the fact that people did not want to even have the conversation about why we would change the way that we talk. >> jay michaelson, did you -- >> i actually really do believe these were meant to be helpful documents. but where we are putting in a whole bunch of made-up stuff that somebody -- this person's finger wagging,

or this person's going to be called offensive, where this person's going to be called a bigot -- i don't have any data that this is what this was about, right? -- maybe i should get a little bit more educated and i would appreciate the docking to actually doing that instead of, like, resenting it in trying to make it into a political attack ad. >> you will be delighted to hear that george packer has stayed with us, listening to this -- >> oh, come on, i thought -- >> [laughter] >> -- blindsiding you with this -- >> i loved the article -- >> [laughter] >> and so, george, your thoughts on what you have heard from our conversation? >> i just love the clarity and force of speech with which everyone has torn my piece of part. that's exactly what i want. >> you are welcome. >> first of all, i got to defend myself. i am not advocating slurs. i make that quite clear in the piece. why would i? any decent person would never use a slur and we did not even

try to use something that might be inadvertently offensive. you should call people what they want to be called. that's basic courtesy. what i am talking about his public language that is not slurs, but that is creeping towards a kind of euphemistic vagueness that makes it impossible to state the thing clearly. and i think anyone who is interested in social justice should know that in order to change things, you first have to face them squarely. so, if you cannot use the word poorer poor and instead have to use the term, people limited financial resources, are you getting closer to solving the problem worry trying to make yourself and people who are trying to solve the problem feel like decent people? -- for the truly afflicted. i think what it does is make us feel as if language itself has changed the world. i think it's almost a pessimism

about our ability to change the world materially. and instead we turn to euphemism in order to do it. so, actually, i'm going to wave the banner of social justice and say, in order to have a more just world, we need to speak the truth clearly and understand it. >> well, it's really interesting to get everyone's perspective. and nobody was advocating slurs, obviously, but i really appreciate your perspective, george packer and it's certainly a thought-provoking topic and it's gotten us all talking. so, thank you very much, again, for all being here. >> it's my pleasure. >> meanwhile california governors taking aim at walgreens. we will tell you why, next. of this. ♪tell me why!♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried♪ ♪new downy rinse and refresh?♪ it helps remove odors 3x b better than detergent aloe it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh!♪ new downy rinse and refresh ♪ this feels so right... ♪ adt systems now feature google products like the nest cam with floodlight, with intelligent alerts when a person or familiar ce is detected. so you can listein... sam.

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business with walgreens or any company that covers the extremists and puts women's lives at risk. we are done. evan, you don't like this idea. >> i don't like it on a couple of levels. first, why is gavin newsom doing this. he wants to be considered a presidential candidate and he's doing this because he does not have a good record to run on as governor of california. california has lost population for the first time ever and last year, in 2020, one california lost population. west virginia gain population for the first time in 50 years. but what did gavin newsom leave out about why he's dropping walgreens? he left out that, last month, a group of 20 attorneys general of states all across the united states sent walgreens and cvs and saying, hey, if you are to distribute this abortion bill, you will be in violation of the comstock act. and it is law enforcement officers we will go after you legally. the executives at walgreens and their boards had a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to

protect the company from legal liability. and gavin newsom left that out. he is double victimized walgreens in a shameful vanity play to become presidential contender. >> do you agree? >> yes. -- there are states when it is not legal to perform abortions now. do i agree with that? that happens to be the law of the land. i don't think it should be. i did not want dobbs to be overturned -- company has to abide by the law in these states. gavin newsom, he's a show horse. he's doing -- >> -- >> -- 1000 percent political expedience. >> -- this is >> it's literally -- >> starts with this term abortion pill, which is even in the intro. this is a misnomer. this medication is used to treat miscarriages and also for abortion purposes.

walgreens is not asking women who are asking for this medication what they are using this medication. for they are just -- who, by the way the republican attorney general association in support of january six and said -- all kinds of inflammatory messages before that -- they have threatened to sue based on a 19th century anti pornography law, the comstock act, which has not been used in decades, to try to say that, well, this is sort of similar because the comstock act also had a line in it about abortion. but this is not an abortion pill. this is a medication that can be used legally or illegally. walgreens has abrogated to itself, rather than all of the women and all the states making the decision how to use this substance, they have taken it upon themselves that this is always going to be illegal. that's absurd. they are things which are legal in some purposes and not legal for others. and this is a medicine which is needed by thousands of women across -- >> maybe the legislature should pass laws in order to make these things clearer. because it is not on the corporations or the company's

leadership to take a social stand. they are simply making a pharmaceutical product available or not available based on what the laws are. >> but that's why the republican attorney generals who started this fight since the wrong letter. that harassment letter going to walgreens was just harassment. it was political posturing. >> and what does it even mean -- >> they know full well that they did not have a leg to stand on because this is a magazine medication -- walgreens came to that pressure, for their fiduciary duty, totally agree, and now this fight is happening. >> what does it even mean they are done with walgreens? -- >> he's reviewing all relationships that the state has with walgreens itself in order to punish walgreens in order to having made a business is based on these republican attorney generals. but we weren't talking about these republican attorneys general, we were talking about the showboating california governor who wants to win the news cycle as a galvanizing issue on the progressive left. >> it's also notable that he

was reacting to a state like kansas, where it is legal to have this medicine abortion, and the sort of a vague promise that they would not operate in kansas. so, it was the idea that you would, basically, kowtow to these governors, were to officials, in a state where it is supposed to be legal. that was the reaction from newsom. it was not just about respecting the fact that in certain states it's not legal. it's the states where people should have access to this medication, we are walgreens was sort of implying or indicating that they would be willing to not give the medication. >> why doesn't gavin newsom go out, instead of taking the quick 16 15 seconds of fame, or 15 minutes of fame for this particular matter, go out and use his actual political apparatus and money to go out and try to change the legislatures and try to get the comstock act repealed at the federal level? he's not. he's doing this. it's a pr stunt. he has no legs to stand on as a record as governor. and that is, at the end of the day, that's it. and he is making walgreens a victim because walgreens did not want to say, we are going

to go into a big, expensive legal fight which is going to hurt our stock, it's going to upset our shareholders, many of whom are actually people with retirement fund, so it's not like it is the uber rich that are going to be truly victimized by this -- >> it could very well -- >> -- isn't he just equaling out the risk for walgreens? so, walgreens was facing one particular risk from these republican attorneys general. now they're facing two risks. now, from the management of walgreens, making a purely capitalist decision, i can go to my boards, i can go to my -- isle of california's business but then we've got this lawsuit. maybe we should just give women the medication -- >> -- and might i add, more than 50% of abortions are medicine abortions. so, this is the front lines of the fight. so, they are going to have to make a decision. and it's not just walgreens. cbs, rite aid -- everyone has to figure out -- >> -- all of those perspectives. stay with me. what can we do to keep fentanyl out of the hands of vulnerable americans, especially young people? we are going to talk about that.

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>> as we just watched tonight in cnn's town hall, the fentanyl epidemic is affecting every community in the u.s.. it's the deadliest drug epidemic in american history. the cdc says fentanyl is up to 50 times stronger than heroin and 100 times stronger than morphine. one dose, often taken unknowingly, can kill you. we are back with the panel. so, friends, does anybody have an idea for how to keep fentanyl out of the hands of young people? i mean, this feels so out of control. because young people who -- i mean, you heard it tonight.

they think that they are taking a percocet and they don't know what they are saying king taking and they've ordered something online and it doesn't say that it's fentanyl. and one time, it kills them. that is not the drug war of our youth. >> certainly, we have to crack down or have social media and better content moderation. because dealers are able to get on snapchat and other social media platforms and directly get to americans. and that's a real problem. remember, just the tip of a pencil -- the size of a tip of a pencil of fentanyl can kill you. that is terrifying to me. and this can get into regular drugs. somebody might be thinking they are taking oxy or maybe even a hit of adderall. >> that is what's happening. >> in fact, if i put up this graphic, it shows how much fentanyl has outpaced every other dangerous drug. so, the green line you are seeing there that starts heading upwards in 2013, that is above, at this point, man, above cocaine, above hero when, in terms of the deaths that it's causing. and you can see it is

precipitously rising there. >> yet, is just heartbreaking watching the town hall which, in the audience, where numerous parents who had lost their children to this and what struck me watching it was just a sense of humility that we really need to re-examine some of our assumptions and kind of check our priors. there was a moment where a senator lindsey graham was on there, making a strong case for intervening in mexico and taking aggressive action. and that might not be where i would go to ideologically. but i was really thinking about. it this is such a tragedy that i think we need all the tools in the tool box. but then there was a moment where he was asked about what is called harm reduction, which is, we know that people are using the substances, what can we do to make it safer? that is something that liberals tend to like, conservatives tend to not like, because it -- encourages use of the drug. but just, for me, i was struck by, really, a lot of humility. there was a doctor, a -- at the end who really said, this is contested in europe. how reduction works. if we can distribute narcan. if we can make it more available and make it commonplace -- to use the example of that town hall, it's a bit like condoms.

we are a bit embarrassed talking about condoms at one time. and then they are just ubiquitous and it's not a big deal. >> -- as a measure, piggybacking on, that jay michaelson, as a measure of how serious a crisis it actually is, you talk about our murdaugh, shunts conservatives not really embracing -- it well, governor greg abbott of texas, has now says he's willing to consider and embrace legalizing test trips. that's how we're diction, right? there are these tests trips which, as the official said in the anderson cooper special, if you are going to take an illicit drug and you crushed up and use this test trip in a certain way, you can determine whether it has fentanyl in it. and that has actually been passed in other states. the governor of pennsylvania signed that bill a few months ago. >> it will save lives. >> it would save lives. and it's this question -- it's sort of like the debate -- not the kind of the bag i was thinking, the needle exchange to be during the hiv crisis. it is a real recognition that you have across the political spectrum, of conservatives and

liberals looking at harm reduction because that's how serious this crisis is. >> that shift in mindset. this is a public health issue -- this is not an issue to shame people. this is not an issue where victims deserve their punishment. it is something that i wish that we had in the 19 80s when crack hit communities and we learned those lessons. we criminalized victims. we threw them away in jail. it is crafted families. it disrupted communities. we have a chance to do something different. but i think it is because victims are children, we see ourselves in them. we see ourselves as family members, that people can finally find that empathy. i think we should not politicize. this is absolutely about saving lives. and when you approach that has a public health issue, that changes the way that you approach policy. >> a little more drug news is just into cnn. cnn projects that voters in oklahoma will reject a ballot measure that would have legalized recreational marijuana in the state for adults 21 and older. marwan a legislation, as you

may know, has been a mixed bag nationwide during the midterms voters in five states considered legalizing recreational marijuana. it failed in arkansas, north dakota, and south dakota, while voters in maryland and missouri passed similar ballot measures. okay, up next, police say that a group of teenagers wearing masks and hoodies ransacked a new york city restaurant, causing thousands of dollars and damage. it was all caught on camera. what is the solution here? >> bleep -- >> bleep --

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police say this group of

teenagers right here in queens, new york, ransacked this restaurant as you can see, flipping, tables breaking, plates and damaging a window. the restaurant says, nobody was hurt in this attack, but they did sustain $20,000 worth of damage. the nypd is now saying this group is wanted for criminal mischief. okay, we are back with the panel, so this is -- when people state street crime is up, let me just show you some stats before we all talk about, it from 2021 to 2022 in new york city, street crime like robbery and burglary -- felony assault up something like 25%, 23%, just in the past year it has gone down a little bit, so if we look at where we are now, you're over here it is down 2%. 3% still on balance, it is up, congressman, what is happening there? >> i've been reading up on this

story it seems so random. i want to know if these guys knew someone who works at or owns the restaurant. there is no excuse for it. there should be accountability there should be consequences for people who do stuff like this. >> of course, but do you think is there are the prosecuted less? is that the argument. the da's are saying they are not going to go after low level crimes like turnstile jumpers, and public urination, and that is leading to somehow more street crime? >> that is often said, we don't have evidence to support it, look, accountability and consequences need to be something that is our imposed and a friday of circumstances including what we just saw on film, and that is something that prosecutors should look into. that is my perspective on it. >> so, i don't know in terms of solution, we don't know a lot of these particular criminals, i do know politically democrats need to figure out a way to talk about this issue in a way that is not republican light, i

mean arguably, the way that mayor eric adams has talked about crime or reinforce some right-wing narratives about new york city crime that hurt some democrats. so, there has to be a more fact based evidence based and really serious conversation around uprooting some of the deep causes that lead to this kind of behavior. sometimes, there is a tendency among progressives to see the moral grounds of the, right like they are the ones who talk about that morality, but speaking as the rabbi at the table, that is a profound mistake. i think again, we don't know anything really about this particular attack, but there needs to be a real way to talk about root causes and changing the conditions that cause the changing economic conditions and cultural conditions that have caused all of the statistics to bisson fortunate. >> people have to understand that we can talk about root causes and also talk about accountability when peaceful states of the root causes they're not saying that you don't hold people accountable but republicans have effectively made that democrats

message right? they have worked the message to state democrats are soft on crime, but what does that really mean? locking people up throwing them away not giving proportional sentences, that is not going to stop the crime that you see. it is not going to stop teams that maybe gather and ransack a store, it is just important that we not get caught up in basically republican talking points and democrats as you said, i have to figure out what is their message going to be, because that is what people are voting on. >> i think it is important to note that this is a very complex issue, that has complex solutions, it is not as republicans have pointed out, we need to do this one thing, and stop this, but at the same time, i grew up in the 1980s, i remember, that republicans are representing what is happening in cities across this country as some sort of worse than the 19 80s. in no way is this worse than the 19 80s. at the same time, i think there's a perception, particularly in new york city and other cities such as san

francisco that quality of life is also dropping. so simultaneously, the public trust is completely eroded. part of that is because with homelessness going up, and with other issues such as you know, where we try and actually have services, yes the republicans are trying to effective. let's not forget there is the nimby, the not in my backyard, and they are absolutely a real plague on solving these issues. in my own district, there is a transitional housing project that was announced last week, and over the weekend the city council member, she came out and said she wanted them to cut the number of beds and a half, because she felt it was inappropriate. my district is one of the most liberal districts in the entire country. >> really interesting. thank you so much. meanwhile, so many americans are now working from home, it is given rise to a trend called body doubling. we are going to tell you what it means. it is so you can feel like you

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oh, will you pause it real quick? (mumbles) just sold the car to carvana. k, hit play please. what? when did you do that? i just did it the other day.

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a button? no mask? no hose? just sleep. yeah but you need the hose, you need the air, you need the whoooooosh... inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more, and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com >> all right which one of you guys wants to tackle this? okay. some tiktok users are streaming video of themselves working by themselves at home. these videos are dull as dirt, but thousands of people are eating this up. aly campbell is one of the employment livestreaming herself to nearly 90,000 followers, she caused the practice body doubling, meaning parallel working. so people working from home feel less alone. >> body doubling is just working in the presence of another human being, and the

other person doesn't even necessarily need it to be working. however, my theory is that body doubling is especially helpful in the co-working sessions, because it makes something magic happen with our mirror or runs. so while it wouldn't be as effective to have somebody in the house sitting around as we are doing whatever we need to, do it ups the effectiveness even more when we are watching somebody do something productive, or when we know we need to do the same. we want to mirror that, you know. >> you know what other what you can feel less alone, go back in the office. get out of your, house go back into the office. that is another suggestion. >> i am in. >> that was great. >> the science of them mirroring part of our brain? >> whatever that is. i feel like you just watch a t.e.d. talk from a combination of elizabeth holmes, and george santos. if you are lonely and still want to work from home, get a dog. my dog is now probably upset

he's being replaced by somebody like this. it is outrageous. >> now i have to bring in our guest. >> there is three or four years ago, there was a whole wave of studies with meat videos, people diligently studying in libraries or beautiful cafes, and ambient sound streams you can get so we have the sound of the café, so that was helping people out. >> i want to take this seriously, people do get, lonely and anything that helps them through the day, people need white noise to go to sleep, i don't, but i respect that some people need that, so -- >> to be fair, to support you there, -- >> your body doubling him. >> being compassionate, i was a part of a writers group, it was a virtual writers group and we did not talk to each other, in fact we turn to our cameras off which was like why are we doing this. but the idea that someone was on the other and doing something was actually good motivation, and could accountability.

>> it worked though. >> the lack of the camera. do not look at me. we've got a lot done. so whatever works for you, i'm not people are reaching out, because people are feeling depressed, they are feeling isolated. i love action. >> and if you have something to do is to, do knowing that other people are doing, it it is motivation. >> misery loves company. that is great. thank you all very much. i appreciate all you company. >> thank you for being. here thank you for watching. our coverage continues now.

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>> good evening, we begin tonight, keeping them honest with a simple and you would think obvious point. whatou