this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you from new york. ♪ today on the program, ten weeks of major protests.

highways blocked, citizens shouting shame. this is the fierce opposition to what some are calling a coup d'etat. prime minister netanyahu's plans to curtail the power of israel's judiciary. i will ask former prime minister erc ehud barack and zippy livni about what is happening on the ground and in the knesset. also -- china's new foreign minister said this week that there will surely be conflict and confrontation with the u.s. if the american government continues to speed down the wrong ♪ ♪ >> i'll dig in deep on the moods in both beijing and washington with kevin rud, the former prime minister of australia who is about to be sworn in as australia's new ambassador to the united states. also, should silicon valley's

tech giants finally pay up for serving used content in they've already squared off with australia over this and canada is next up, but it might be too little, too late in the age of a.i. i will explain. but first, here's my take. mexico could be entering a golden age. it's perfectly placed to benefit from the growing tensions between the united states and china. part of the country are already seeing a boom as companies diversify away from china and invest in mexico. in fact, a good chunk of that investment is being made by chinese companies that are finding a way to continue to sell goods to the united states. the state of nuevo leon where much of the country's advanced manufacturing is centered has received almost $7 billion in investment since late 2021 and its governor expects tesla's recently announced plan to build a gigafactory there to yield $10 billion over time. laredo, texas, which deals

almost exclusively with mexican trade last october beat out los angeles as the united states' busiest sport. but these promising economic winds are being stifled by politics. for the last three decades mexico has had a run of presidents that while they've had their flaws were serious about policy and tried to modernize the country with varying degrees of success. that luck has run out. mexico's president since 2018, manuel lopez obrador is a populist demagogue who regards the strong man tradition in latin america history. the covid policies were a disaster. mexico has had one of the highest covid case fatality ratios in the world. his economic policies have been anti-growth. by one estimate nearly 4 million meck c mexicans have slipped into

poverty since 2019 and he's failed to address the drug cartels and the mexican institutions many of whom required legitimacy and competency. his current effort might be the most dangerous. for most of the 20th century, mexico was a one-party state ensuring that the ruling party always won. that changed in 2000 when president ernesto zedillo's electoral reforms enabled the country's first free and fair election which the ruling party lost. out of the same spirit of democratization came the national election agency, the ine which has developed a reputation for being independent and competent. last month, the party passed a bill to drastically weaken that agency. amla pushed a plan that would have killed it altogether and replaced it with a new party and he couldn't pass the bar for a constitutional amendment and its budget would be cut by nearly a

third. many local offices would be closed and 6,000 staff members would be laid off. its powers would be curtailed taking some teeth out of the watchdog. he says he's doing it to improve the voting process and save tens of millions of dollars a year. amlo cannot legally run for an election, and he calls it a victory for his party which he continues. the election agency has not been perfect, but it is a pillar of mexico's fledgling democracy. polls show it is the most trusted institution in mexico after the armed forces. amlo's attacks on it has been part of the assault on ngos and independent government agencies from those dealing with corruption to human rights. in her excellent article shannon o'neal writes that mlo has

raided the coffers of public funds and routinely attack those who criticize him. mlo's entire term in office claim to speak for the poor, attack the elites and meanwhile run a shoddy, government. he released the journalist's personal income information which the mexican bar association said violated the constitution and the tax code. amlo campaigned on a promise to fight corruption, and mexicans against corruption and i punity, his government awards three out of four contracts using a no-bid system that does not even ask for competing offers. mexico's biggest problem is not an economic one, but rather a political one. the state has lost its capacity to rein in the drug cartels which run large parts of the country. amlo campaigned on the slogan of

hugs, not bullets and he simply ceded the issue to the military which is deeply riddled with corruption and drug money mp in 2020 the united states apprehended a former defense minister on charges of being in league with the cartel, the government of mexico asked the u.s. to drop the charges and washington agreed. former u.s. attorney general recently described amlo's as the cartel's chief enabler. amlo's attack is essentially personal. he believes he won the 2006 and 2012 elections, but was denied his due, independent observers do not agree. in fact, much of his presidency is an act of narcissism. he holds daily press conferences that can go on for hours. he attacks the state because its agencies limit his powers, and now he appears to be weakening the election oversight. they have their differences, of course, but amlo has turned out

to be the mexican donald trump. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my washington post column this week, and let's get started. ♪ ♪ the president of israel's supreme court, two former directors of the mossad, former heads of the shinbet security service and an ex-police commissioner and 37 air force pilots and a nobel prize-winning economist. these are just some of the israelis who have condemned this country's judicial reforms proposed by benjamin netanyahu's government. those reforms would seriously weaken the independence of israel's supreme court. they would give the knesset the israeli legislature and the power to overrule the high court's decisions by a simple majority. one vote. if passed in their current form, the reforms would also allow the government decisive control over the appointment of judges.

>> the plan's proponents admit it would weaken the judiciary saying the supreme court and its unelected justices have too much power and are no longer accountable. >> massive protests against the proposed measures have swept the country for ten weeks in a row. many political leaders say the reforms will destroy israel's democracy, many business leaders say they will destroy the economy. joining me now are two former senior leaders of israel. ehud barack was the country's te tenth prime minister and zippy livni served as foreign minister. welcome to you both. can you explain to us why this is happening and what is the fundamental cause propelling these reforms or so-called reforms? >> you can add to the list that you just mentioned dozens of

thousands of israelis that are taking the streetes demonstrating against it because these are no judicial reforms. it's about changes in the nature of israel as a democracy. israel was born as the nation's state for the jewish people with equal rights to all its citizens and we have different authorities. the politician and the government and the parliament can legislate, of course, but the supreme court can and should supervise human rights and since we don't have a constitution, we have some basic law and these are the base for the decisions of the supreme court. what is happening now is that we are having a government that is based on three different factions. one is very religious, ultra orthodox. for them, they would like to ignore the idea of equality, for women, lgbt. they don't want to serve in the army. so for them the supreme court

that is the part of the decisions is -- the government to all their citizens that doesn't suit them. you have another faction, the religious, the national religious part. for them, they would like to have an ascension into israel and to prevent the supreme court from making judgment on the situation in the west bfrank. they want to rule without any su supervision, and on top of this you have a prime minister that has his own political interest to weaken law enforcement so the reforms what it's called is not just about the supreme court. it's like they want the election. they got the commission or the license to drive and to promote their own ideology or vision, but what they are doing is they would like to do so without any

road signs, without police on the way, to do whatever they want without any limitation and this is something that cannot happen, and this is why we are completely against it. >> ehud barack, you have been very, very strong on this issue. you say if these laws get passed you believe that israel should engage in massive civil unrest, non-violent protest on the scale of, you know, the kind of american civil rights movement. explain what do you think -- what are the stakes here? >> you know, it's basically as tzipi described it, it is an attack on the very soul and nature of our democracy on the independence of the supreme court and about the values of the declaration of independence which is our kind of so to speak, equivalent of constitution. so once a government, using the

tools of democracy, in order to destroy it from within and ends up with a platantly illegitimate manner and it is not just in my judgment, the obligation of citizens to turn, unfortunately, towards civil disobedience, non-violent, but non-violent civil disobedience. we might still be two weeks or three weeks from the completion of this legislation, but once it is completed, you know, the supreme court will stand in the way. i hope that the gate keepers and the head of the secret service and the head of the police and the chief of the idf they all will stand, but if they want or if the government will try to impose this package of laws there will be no way for a

citizen to resist, but through non-viol non-violent civil disobedience. >> there are people in the military, senior people who say the military should refuse to take orders from what will at that point be, in their view, an illegitimate government because it is not a government of a liberal democracy. >> you described it. it's already happened. it surfaced in one of the air force squadrons and one of the most important ones, but there are many of them, many in the intelligence, many in the -- many other units already wrote -- i mean, reservists and not active duty, but reservists that are volunteering for full of risk kind of roles. the basic argument is the following, we have a contract with a democratic israel.

we are ready to risk our lives even if we do not agree with any approximatel policy of this government. we already buried many of our comrades under the circumstances, but we do not have a contract with a dictatorship and once there is a de facto dictatorship in israel we -- we do not have a contract with them. we have to find a right way. so i have no doubt if tomorrow morning or next week a major war will be imposed upon us. they will all be risking their life once again. unlike many of the sons and daughters of the members of the israeli government, but in the meantime between walls they intend to fight against this tendency to turn israel into a

dictatorship. >> stay with us. when i come back i will ask our two distinguished guests what, if anything, the outside world can do about this when we come back. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ when your v-neck looks more like a u-neck, that's when you know, it's half-washed. downy has 7 benefits that condition and smooth fibers so clothes look newer, longer. feel the difference with downy. i'm not a doctor. i'm not even in a doctor's office. i'm standing on the street, talking to real people about their heart. how's your heart? my heart's pretty good. you sure? i think so. how do you know? you're driving a car? you have the check engine light, but the heart doesn't have a hey, check heart sign. i want to show you something. put both fingers right on those pads. there you go. in 30 seconds, we're going to have a medical grade ekg. -there it is. -that is you. look at that. with kardiamobile, the fda cleared personal ekg device.

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israel's former prime minister ehud barak and the country's former finance minister tzipi livni. tzipi livni, what is the likely economic impact of this? because i do hear people saying, well, israeli economy depends on the rule of law and things like that, but i've also heart people skeptical saying, look, you've had governments that have played around with -- where there's been democratic backsliding, whether it's in poland or in hungary, some say in india, but the economy has continued to power along. do you think there's a real possibility that israel's start-up nation luster gets diminished by all this?

>> israel is a start-up nation and i want to share some optimistic feelings because what you see now is people are fighting for democracy. they will not let israel to turn into a combination of theocracy or autocracy and this is why you see all of these people in the streets, people are fighting and this is the good news because it kind of -- can people, the liberal democrats within israel, in a way were not activists until now and what you see now is a creation of the world that is fighting democracy and this is good news, and i think, i know that it took netanyahu and his government by surprise and they looked at the opposition and they say, okay, they are weak. they are weak. they are not going to fight. we can do whatever we want and they discovered that they can't.

what they're trying to do is try to take the jewishness of the state from a religious perspective to cover the nature and the values of the israeli democracy and people are objecting. so i think that to speak about the future like this is a done deal i'm not willing to do so. we are fighting now. there is hope. it took the government by surprise, and i hope that they will understand that we cannot move forward like this because the prices, not only the political prices that they are paying now, but the prices of the state of israel are unacceptable. >> ehud barak, what tzipi livni describing, was the tension going to get worse between the ultra orthodox element of israeli politics and its liberal democracy? because if you look at the demographic trends, the part of the population that is growing is the ultra orthodox. it is here already and they

don't seem that committed to liberal democracy, am i right? and if that's true, isn't that a worrying prospect going forward since they're the ones demographically growing? >> i think that in a way part of it is they're growing in numbers, but nothing is kind of predetermined. many of them are coming to age and especially now with the open society. they find themselves having to -- trying to have a better life to participate in their labor force and to become more kind of open-minded about democracy. so leave aside for a moment the long term tendencies, and we are focused on fighting if myself and tzipi believe in the -- that would be enough time to deal the

ultra orthodox that i will -- our brothers and there are many things to be done in regard to taking politics out of -- taking religion out of israeli politics, but that's for the future. first of all, we have to make sure that this package of laws that turn israel into a dictatorship and not to russia or turkey, but something like hungary or poland with much worse neighborhood situation, and we have to stop it and we will. >> tzipi livni, you are foreign minister. does america have a special role to play here? do american jews have a special role to lay? talk about that. >> oh, yeah. oh, yeah. you know, every israeli citizen understand the importance of the relations between israel and the u.s., and as you know, every israeli leader who comes to the

u.s. start his speeches by saying that we share the same values and in order to do so and to keep these ties and this is a strategic relations for israel, we need to keep these values. we need to keep these values for ourselves and what we are saying is don't give up, israel. fight with us. keep israel as it was established. when israel was born it was not only accepted, but accepted by all of the parties in israel, that israel will be a democracy so let's keep it like that and therefore the messages coming from our friends, either jews or the american administrations are really important. it's very influential. >> tzipi livni, ehud barak, thank you very much. these are very important times for your country and we will be watching carefully. >> thank you. >> thank you. next on "gps," u.s.-china

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it was a one-two punch from china's president xi and his new foreign minister aimed squarely at the united states. on monday, she accused western countries led by the united states of containing and suppressing china. he said those actions had severely challenged beijing and he called on the country to unite as one to fight back. it was a rare case of china's top leader calling out the united states directly. the next day xi stopped diplomat and warned that conflict and confrontation would be the result if washington doesn't change its tactics. it's safe to say we are in a very dangerous moment in u.s.-china relations.

kevin rudd is here to help us understand. he is former prime minister of australia who is about to become australia's ambassador to the u.s. he is the author of a terrific book, "the avoidable war." kevin, welcome. >> good to be with you on the program, fareed. >> when you hear xi jinping what he did and his foreign minister say what he did, this is a big change for the chinese, and they've not referred to the united states by name and accuse it. what's going on? >> i must admit as someone who looked at this for the last 40 years, i was surprised. it's probably not since the '90s since i've seen a paramount leader attack the united states by name. they usually have an expression that says such and such a country or certain nations and that diplomacy was pushed to one side and of course, the foreign minister went one step further, saying if the united states

continues its current posture particularly on taiwan, inevitably this will result in conflict and i've never heard that from a chinese foreign minister before. so i think two things are at play here. i think both xi jinping and his team are under considerable domestic considerable pressure from a very slow economy and this has been an opportunity for xi jinping to say we know you're going through a hard time domestically, growth's been down and unemployment has been up and prices are a problem in certain areas, but the united states and its allies have been making life impossible for us, but a pressure brought to bear for us domestically and that's one of the rationales, but when a chinese president says something as definitive as this, and it also has its own intrinsic foreign policy significance, and i do believe it further accelerates china's preparedness militarily for future action over taiwan, if and when xi

jinping so chooses. >> so how did we get here? if one were -- if rip van winkle would have gone to sleep when obama was having that meeting in sunny lands with xi jinping and they take their jackets off and they walk together, it seemed like yes, a complicated relationship, some of the stuff they were talking about is china's economic espionage and u.s. support for taiwan, but manageable and from there we are now at what seems like the beginning of a new cold war. what happened? >> i think two or three things, fareed. the first is the balance of power between these two countries has changed again over the last ten years. china was becoming more powerful, but the acceleration of the gap or should i say, the narrowing of the gap between china and the u.s. and military capabilities and also in aggregate economic size has

caused china to conclude it has an ability now to project its own interests and values in a way in which it didn't see as possible before. the second big driver, i think, is xi jinping itself in the dynamic of xi's leadership is an unchanged driver in itself. he's a marxist leninist and an advocate of a certain form of policy, and you see him pushing the trajectory and accelerating the velocity of china's shall we say, moment in the global sun. >> and third, the united states has pushed back. >> i wanted to ask you about that, because the other big shift that took place since then was the election of donald trump, and in much, much tougher foreign policy, first economically. what do you think happened? watching it from the outside as it were, as an australian, what strikes you about why and how did america change? >> well, if you look at

late-term obama there were changes and remember obama was responsible for the trip to asia and the transpacific partnership which was like bringing the free economies of asia together urn under american leadership dealing with an emerging economic monolith which was china, but you're right, things did radically change under donald trump. the reasons for it, i think driven essentially in the first instance by the view of the trump administration on trade, that this was a net loser for the united states, that job his been sacrificed and they galvanized a series of reservations already alive in the american debate which caused the launching of the trade war of 2018-19, and then, of course, the turbo charging influence of covid and the wuhan origins and where that took the relationship. so that when you had the formal

proclamation of the new doctrine of strategic competition by the then national security adviser h.r. mcmaster. so this was a rapid transition during trump and the beginnings of it were in late obama. >> next on "gps" questions swirl over whether china supplies russia. i will ask kevin rudd whether he thinks it will happen when we come back. portugal 29. did you know that? i had no idea. the more you learn the more you want to know, and then it just fuels that fire. we now live in a place our ancestors have been for many, many years and we had no clue. nigerian. i got a lot of it from you. explore your family story with ancestrydna. now on sale. you could manufacture a whole new way of manufacturing. disrupt buying habits before they disrupt your business.

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putting the most advanced technology into people's hands. generation after generation. tool after tool. again and again. bringing you the broadest and most reliable network of service dealers. always moving forward. we lead. others follow. we are back here on gps talking about relations between beijing and washington with kevin rudd, the former prime minister of australia soon to become kambera's ambassador to washington. kevin, help us understand with the population of ukraine. does it help russia to have china in this war? it seems the war is not going

particularly well for russia, but how does china view this war? >> often when looking at this from the out, what's in this for china? china is at risk of shedding international reputation by being too close to putin's invasion of ukraine, not suffici sufficiently independent, et cetera. if you look at this relationship, however, through the beijing lens or the xi jinping lens it's important to see this, from his strategic view, having russia along with china for the long term is of fundamental importance. for been a heavily armed border, no longer have -- there's no longer 18 soviet divisions on the other side of the border. china can focus all of its military activity, resources and planning to the maritime theater, its principal future adversary of the united states. i think the other thing in xi

jinping's calculous is the russians from time to time will provide rolling strategic distractions for the united states and other theaters. syria, some time ago now, of course, in ukraine, again causing the united states to be focusing in multiple directions at once. china has one direction to focus on. >> wouldn't you add, i mean, it also gives china-russia as a kind of junior partner, some say a state, that is one of the world's largest producers of energy? oil, coal, natural gas and china needs that desperately? >> absolutely. it provides secure access, reliable access -- >> cheap prices. >> discounted prices andy from steak knives thrown in to have russia's gas and agricultural commodities where they are available and applicable. you put that together from xi's perspective, i don't want to do anything he would say in his own

mind jeopardize that, furthermore, the last thing he would want to see from his point of view is to sit back and see putin fail fundamentally and let alone a putin collapse in russia itself. so will china supply arms to russia? >> there's a $6,000 question. i have read carefully what the united states' administration has said through multiple officials. the secretary of state, secretary of treasury, et cetera, about -- and the director of the cia about real intelligence on these matters. if you read carefully the text, the decisions have not yet been taken. what's my gut? in term was where china is at present, unless they were concluding internally that there was a danger of putin actually losing and actually coming under massive pressure in term of his own position back home, i do not see that it is in china's interest now to test it either

directly through providing military material directly to the russians or cleverley through third parties has has often been suggested. >> at the end of your book you talk about the need for managed, strategic competition between the united states and china. it seems we are far from that right now. we seem to be going into a war where china will quadruple its nuclear arsenal. where we will be in a new nuclear age which could be quite unstable with the arms control talks and treaties. what would you advise washington to do to bring things back on track. >> if we would have chancellor scholz here and president macron and prime minister kishida in japan. i think the general view would be to the super powers both these super powers are finding a mechanism to restabilize the

relationship, use strategic guardrails to reduce the risk of crisis conflict and war by accident, and if i'm looking for a precedent in the newest international relals industry, remember after the near-death experience of the cuban missile crisis. the soviets in the united states for the subsequent 30 years never, ever got croes to the abyss again and they delivered the protocols including the helsinki accord in 1975. so there is a view across many countries that taking this temperature down is in the world's interest, in allies' interests and also in the interest of china's closest friends and partners, as well. >> is it in order to try to help move things along those lines that you've decided to take this new job? you are a former prime minister. you have a terrific job. you have traveled the world, why -- is that why you are doing this? >> no, it's the climate in washington. i just love the sunshine.

no, my prime minister who has been a friend and colleague for years in australian politics asked me and so did the foreign minister, but i think their interest, like mine and their anxiety, like mine, is this is starting to become dangerous, and australia is one of america's oldest treaty allies. we've been in the trenches with the united states in, i think, all of america's major wars into the 20th century and the 21st century and even some of the crazy ones, and so working closely with the administration under the guidance of the government in kambera is about dealing with the granularity of deterrence, dealing with the granularity of mechanisms to reduce the risk of crisis, conflict and war by accident as well as the roles and responsibility of allies. so, think, as an ambassador i'm

promoting the australian national interest in business, security and all of that and i'll be doing that happily, as well, but we're living in dangerous times, my friend, really dangerous times and i think it's time for old hands to the pump. >> i'm delighted to have you on, kevin, and i am also delighted that this being your exit interview, from now on you will be speaking in economic binnalities and i will not get something this interesting out of you. thank you. >> next on "gps," the power of ai is set to affect big tech to the detriment of one other vital industry. ours. i'll explain when we come back. past the pain, and past your limits. no matter what, we go on. biofreeze

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and now for the last look. ever since the dawn of the internet, there has been a struggle between technology companies and media companies. while big tech's platforms provide users with easy access to journalism, news organizations complain that despite getting more traffic, they received very little by way of revenue from the clicks. it is a war that the news industry has mostly lost.

resulting in the free fall of thousands of newspapers, magazine and websites over the last three decades. well, the struggle is revving up again. canada's senate is considering a bill that would make big tech sites like facebook and google finally pay publishers for displaying news content online. in response, google removed links to news articles from the search engine for up to 4% of the country's population. the company has framed this move as a way to temporarily test the impact of the so-called online news act. but ottawa sees things differently and has summoned the tech giant executives to testify before parliament. several companies including the united states have similar laws under consideration right now. australia actually passed one in 2021. but a game-changer it on the horizon.

generalive rah generativ ai may not solve for the next set of challenges. a few months ago i told you about open a.i. chat gpt. it could hold conversations and mimic human writing. it had and frankly still has some major flaws when it comes to accuracy. but ai has the power to bring superpowers to search engines, vastly improving their ability to respond to questions from you and me. this is why microsoft has been keen to incorporate this technology into the previously marginal search engine bing. this version responds to user queries by delivering conversation answers to questions drawing responses from synthesizing and paraphrasing online media. it may list footnotes at the end of the response but the answer are so self-contained and complete that there is very little incentive for users to continue on to the source of the information. if you get a well-synthesized

answer to your question, why would you badge to click on the footnotes at the end of the answer to see the two or three sources on which that is based? as the economists recently pointed out, new ai chat bots could reach behind pay walls. in today's search engine landscape, a user trying to find "the new york times'" recipe for macaroni and cheese, it will be stopped for payment and ask bing and it serves up a version of the whole recipe complete with a licking lips emoji. chat gpt enabled bing isn't available to the public yet and the program still struggles with accuracy and it is been known to act, well, a bit unhinged. but make no mistake, ai chat bots are coming. google announced plans to enhance its own choo chat bot

called barred and baidu says it will release early bot after testing. publishers could be left scrambling. for years cnn has labored over search engine observation to draw eyeballs to their content and their advertisers. others have opted to write click bait to appeal to the algorithm, bending in every which way to entice someone away from the endless scrolling. no one can agree on just how much money the tech industry has already siphoned from journalist in the past two decades, but chat bots will likely be devastating to its click driven economy. new laws could help and in just over a year australia has gotten google and facebook to pay media companies their more than $140 million for using their news content. "the guardian" alone has added

50 journalists alone to the newsroom down under. it is always good to remember that ai chat bots don't actually know anything. they learn it from existing knowledge created by human beings. in this case, journalists. if these human beings didn't exist, the chat bots would have nothing to say. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. ♪ my relationship with my credit cards wasn't good. i got into debt in college and, no matter how much i paid, it followed me everywhere. between the high interest, the fees... i felt trapped. debt, debt, debt. so i broke up with my credit card debt and consolidated it

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thank you for joining me this sunday. i'm fredicka whitfield. we begin this hour with breaking